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Re: [baseball-databank] BFP issues

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  • David Carter
    Clem, I spent alot of time cleaning up the BFP data earlier this year. I worked from multiple sources (Spalding/Reach Guides, Newspapers, and Palmer s Data)
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 10, 2010
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      Clem,

      I spent alot of time cleaning up the BFP data earlier this year. I worked from multiple sources (Spalding/Reach Guides, Newspapers, and Palmer's Data) and estimated BFP when it wasn't available. The BFP/IP for any player/season is well within an acceptable range. Like I said, I spent about a month going over the BFP data and deciding what sources to use. Check out my custom Baseball Databank Database that I made available earlier this year:

      http://www.mediafire.com/?newmuztnwww

      --- On Thu, 10/7/10, Clem Comly <ccomly@...> wrote:

      From: Clem Comly <ccomly@...>
      Subject: [baseball-databank] BFP issues
      To: baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Thursday, October 7, 2010, 8:29 AM

       

      I was using the data from last spring to look at BFP/IP.  Doing this I found a few impossible BFP numbers and a few inconsistencies with Retrosheet/Palmer data where the latter's data looks better.  I don't have the Retro data en masse,  just was manually looking up the best and worst BFP/IP seasons per BDB on the Retro site.
       
       I had figured out post-1900 leaders but when I checked against Retrosheet the BFPs
      did not match so I didn't show them
                            :                                        BDB Retro
                                                                     BFP  BFP
      3.64  Dickson, Walt      1914  PIT  FL    935  1035
      3.65  Willett, Ed           1913  DET  AL   883  1002
      ==============================
      5.08  Vangilder, Elam  1927  SLA  AL  1031  931
       
      When I extended my search to 19th century, lowest BFP/IP were:
       BFP/IP best and worst season (minimum 150 IP)
       2.36 Healy, Egyptian    1891 Balt AA
       2.79 Madden, Kid       1891 Balt AA
       3.18 McMahon, Sadie  1891 Balt AA

      1891 is even uglier than I thought.
      1891 Baltimore AA only had 7 pitchers--2 were below 10 games pitched with
      20-60 IP: those 2 had BFPs of 0.
      Of the other 5, 4 have BFP/IP below 3.  The last, Sadie McMahon had 1601 BFP
      in 503 IP with 493 hits and 149 walks.

      1891 NL has 2 teams with 0 BFP.  If you subtract those teams IPs from league
      totals the other 6 have about 7300 IP and 6400 BFP!


      Clem Comly


    • Clay Dreslough
      If a pitcher takes the mound before a game, but leaves (such as due to injury while warming) before throwing a pitch, I know that an appearance is not
      Message 2 of 18 , Nov 3, 2010
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        If a pitcher takes the mound before a game, but leaves (such as due to
        injury while warming) before throwing a pitch, I know that an
        'appearance' is not awarded.

        I assume that a 'start' is also not awarded. Is that correct?

        Or are there rules that prevent the the pitcher from being removed
        before he throws a pitch?

        Thanks,

        Clay
      • Clem Comly
        If no appearance, no start. After some Mauch shenanigans in the 1960s, the rule was put in that the starting pitcher unless injured must face one batter. Clem
        Message 3 of 18 , Nov 4, 2010
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          If no appearance, no start.  After some Mauch shenanigans in the 1960s, the rule was put in that the starting pitcher unless injured must face one batter.
           
          Clem Comly
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 9:13 PM
          Subject: Re: [baseball-databank] Stat question ('Game Started')

           

          If a pitcher takes the mound before a game, but leaves (such as due to
          injury while warming) before throwing a pitch, I know that an
          'appearance' is not awarded.

          I assume that a 'start' is also not awarded. Is that correct?

          Or are there rules that prevent the the pitcher from being removed
          before he throws a pitch?

          Thanks,

          Clay

        • Tim Collins
          Clay,   I downloaded the official baseball rulebook, and the closest thing I could find was a comment within rule 10.20, which I have copied and pasted
          Message 4 of 18 , Nov 4, 2010
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            Clay,
              I downloaded the official baseball rulebook, and the closest thing I could find was a comment within rule 10.20, which I have copied and pasted below.  I'm assuming here that pitching is a "defensive" statistic, but I interpret this to mean that if he doesn't throw a single pitch, he doesn't get credit for having started that game.
             
            Tim
             

            Rule 10.20 Comment: The official scorer shall credit a player with having played on defense if

            such player is on the field for at least one pitch or play. If a game is called (for example, because of rain)

            after a substitute player enters the field but before a pitch is thrown or a play is made, the official scorer

            shall credit such player with a game played in the batting statistics but shall not credit such player in any

            defensive statistics. If a game is called (for example, because of rain) after a relief pitcher enters the field

            but before a pitch is thrown or a play is made, the official scorer shall credit such pitcher with a game

            played in the batting statistics but shall not credit such pitcher in any defensive statistics or with a game

            pitched.




            From: Clay Dreslough <cjd@...>
            To: baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wed, November 3, 2010 9:13:31 PM
            Subject: Re: [baseball-databank] Stat question ('Game Started')

             

            If a pitcher takes the mound before a game, but leaves (such as due to
            injury while warming) before throwing a pitch, I know that an
            'appearance' is not awarded.

            I assume that a 'start' is also not awarded. Is that correct?

            Or are there rules that prevent the the pitcher from being removed
            before he throws a pitch?

            Thanks,

            Clay


          • swprod@sonic.net
            I don t see any reason to question whether ANY player who is scratched before a game begins would or should be credited in any way with being in the game.
            Message 5 of 18 , Nov 5, 2010
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              I don't see any reason to question whether ANY player who is scratched
              before a game begins would or should be credited in any way with being in
              the game. That's probably why it's not explicitly discussed in the rules.

              Jim

              > Clay,
              >   I downloaded the official baseball rulebook, and the closest thing I
              > could
              > find was a comment within rule 10.20, which I have copied and pasted
              > below.  I'm
              > assuming here that pitching is a "defensive" statistic, but I interpret
              > this to
              > mean that if he doesn't throw a single pitch, he doesn't get credit for
              > having
              > started that game.
              >
              > Tim
              >
            • Mike Emeigh
              ... Per rule 10.20, if a player is listed in the starting lineup and is substituted for before he plays on defense, he shall not receive credit in the
              Message 6 of 18 , Nov 5, 2010
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                On 11/4/2010 9:41 AM, Tim Collins wrote:
                > Clay,
                > I downloaded the official baseball rulebook, and the closest thing I
                > could find was a comment within rule 10.20, which I have copied and
                > pasted below. I'm assuming here that pitching is a "defensive"
                > statistic, but I interpret this to mean that if he doesn't throw a
                > single pitch, he doesn't get credit for having started that game.

                Per rule 10.20, if a player is listed in the starting lineup and is
                substituted for before he plays on defense, he shall not receive credit
                in the defensive statistics (fielding) unless he actually plays that
                position during the game (which per the comment is one pitch or play).
                "Pitcher" is a defensive position, therefore a pitcher who is listed in
                the team's starting lineup but who is not on the field for at least one
                pitch or play would not receive credit in the *fielding* statistics for
                a game at pitcher.

                The official scorer is required to list each team's starting (and
                finishing) pitcher, but there's nothing specific about what happens when
                the listed starter never throws a pitch. In 1979, in fact, Milwaukee's
                Mike Caldwell was credited in the official stats with a game started in
                a game where he never threw a pitch, being replaced by Jim Slaton after
                he warmed up. Since then, I haven't found a single case where the listed
                starting pitcher was credited with a game started without actually
                throwing a pitch in the game, so I think that the rule 10.20 provision
                also applies to identifying the starting pitcher (it would make sense to
                do that).
                --
                Mike Emeigh
                MWE55inNC@...

                "ManagementSpeak: Phase II. Translation: Never." -- Bob Lewis
              • Mike Emeigh
                ... Except that it IS explicitly discussed in rule 10.20. -- Mike Emeigh MWE55inNC@gmail.com ManagementSpeak: Phase II. Translation: Never. -- Bob Lewis
                Message 7 of 18 , Nov 5, 2010
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                  On 11/5/2010 12:03 PM, swprod@... wrote:
                  > I don't see any reason to question whether ANY player who is scratched
                  > before a game begins would or should be credited in any way with being in
                  > the game. That's probably why it's not explicitly discussed in the rules.

                  Except that it IS explicitly discussed in rule 10.20.
                  --
                  Mike Emeigh
                  MWE55inNC@...

                  "ManagementSpeak: Phase II. Translation: Never." -- Bob Lewis
                • Tangotiger
                  ... There might good reasons for that. For one, I presume that any pitcher scratched due to injury prior to pitching will not be available that game even if
                  Message 8 of 18 , Nov 5, 2010
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                    > I don't see any reason to question whether ANY player who is scratched
                    > before a game begins would or should be credited in any way with being in
                    > the game. That's probably why it's not explicitly discussed in the rules.
                    >
                    > Jim

                    There might good reasons for that. For one, I presume that any pitcher
                    scratched due to injury prior to pitching will not be available that game
                    even if he's "cured" during the game. There are other situations where a
                    player is announced into the game, and doesn't play and is not eligible to
                    play that game.

                    How all that is handled "officially" is, well, it's not right or wrong.
                    It's just official.

                    Ideally, we would record such games accurately, and create the necessary
                    categories to capture those games. You could have a category called
                    "ineligible to play". But, there's no such official category, so, there's
                    sometimes square pegs / round holes that happens.

                    There's no official "reached on error" category, so a few of us make up
                    our own definition. "Batting average on balls in play" (BABIP) is not
                    official either, and for those of us who track it, we include SF in the
                    denominator, and some of us include reaching on error in the numerator.

                    If David Palmer pitches a 5-inning perfect game, MLB at one time
                    considered it a perfect game, and now does not. And who knows, maybe
                    they'll change their mind.

                    All to say: while it's nice to be able to report the numbers by the
                    official definitions, we are not beholden to the whims of MLB scoring
                    committee to do so.

                    Tom
                  • swprod@sonic.net
                    ... I don t see it - nothing about a pre-game scratch, just about a game being called. Rule 10.20 Comment: The official scorer shall credit a player with
                    Message 9 of 18 , Nov 5, 2010
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                      > On 11/5/2010 12:03 PM, swprod@... wrote:
                      >> I don't see any reason to question whether ANY player who is scratched
                      >> before a game begins would or should be credited in any way with being
                      >> in the game. That's probably why it's not explicitly discussed in the
                      >> rules.
                      >
                      > Except that it IS explicitly discussed in rule 10.20.
                      > --
                      > Mike Emeigh

                      I don't see it - nothing about a pre-game scratch, just about a game being
                      called.

                      Rule 10.20 Comment: The official scorer shall credit a player with having
                      played on defense if such player is on the field for at least one pitch or
                      play. If a game is called (for example, because of rain) after a
                      substitute player enters the field but before a pitch is thrown or a play
                      is made, the official scorer shall credit such player with a game played
                      in the batting statistics but shall not credit such player in any
                      defensive statistics. If a game is called (for example, because of rain)
                      after a relief pitcher enters the field but before a pitch is thrown or a
                      play is made, the official scorer shall credit such pitcher with a game
                      played in the batting statistics but shall not credit such pitcher in any
                      defensive statistics or with a game pitched.


                      > MWE55inNC@...
                      >
                      > "ManagementSpeak: Phase II. Translation: Never." -- Bob Lewis
                      >
                    • robert bluestein
                      Jim, Lou Gehrig had to play in the games during his streak. One series of games he had Lumbago and he was slated to bat leadoff for the Yankees (they were the
                      Message 10 of 18 , Nov 5, 2010
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                        Jim, 
                        Lou Gehrig had to play in the games during his streak. One series of games he had Lumbago and he was slated to bat leadoff for the Yankees (they were the visiting team) and then he took the field for one recorded out before coming out of the game. As I understand it, a player who is scratched from the lineup before he even steps foot on the diamond cannot be credited for being in the game.
                        Rob


                        From: Tangotiger <tom@...>
                        To: baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Fri, November 5, 2010 12:36:10 PM
                        Subject: Re: [baseball-databank] Stat question ('Game Started')

                         

                        > I don't see any reason to question whether ANY player who is scratched
                        > before a game begins would or should be credited in any way with being in
                        > the game. That's probably why it's not explicitly discussed in the rules.
                        >
                        > Jim

                        There might good reasons for that. For one, I presume that any pitcher
                        scratched due to injury prior to pitching will not be available that game
                        even if he's "cured" during the game. There are other situations where a
                        player is announced into the game, and doesn't play and is not eligible to
                        play that game.

                        How all that is handled "officially" is, well, it's not right or wrong.
                        It's just official.

                        Ideally, we would record such games accurately, and create the necessary
                        categories to capture those games. You could have a category called
                        "ineligible to play". But, there's no such official category, so, there's
                        sometimes square pegs / round holes that happens.

                        There's no official "reached on error" category, so a few of us make up
                        our own definition. "Batting average on balls in play" (BABIP) is not
                        official either, and for those of us who track it, we include SF in the
                        denominator, and some of us include reaching on error in the numerator.

                        If David Palmer pitches a 5-inning perfect game, MLB at one time
                        considered it a perfect game, and now does not. And who knows, maybe
                        they'll change their mind.

                        All to say: while it's nice to be able to report the numbers by the
                        official definitions, we are not beholden to the whims of MLB scoring
                        committee to do so.

                        Tom


                      • Clem Comly
                        It is important to note that this rule was not in place throughout the history of baseball. Dave Smith and I call these Chisms in honor of the first guy who
                        Message 11 of 18 , Nov 5, 2010
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                          It is important to note that this rule was not in place throughout the history of baseball.   Dave Smith and I call these Chisms in honor of the first guy who caused Retrosheet problems.  Left-handed thrower Tom Chism was listed by Earl Weaver once as the starting C for a road game towards the top of the lineup.  A defensive sub took his  place in home first so per this rule he does not appear officially as a C.  Another time Weaver did this with Chism but listed him at SS.
                           
                          One example before the rule change was left-handed Chris Short listed as starting catcher on 6/29/1961 game 1.  One can see Short today with 1 game at C.  In this same game two other pitchers, Owens and Ferrase "played" OF for only time in their major league careers. Unlike most Chisms, Short was playing for the home team. The 3 pitchers had recently pitched so wouldn't have played that day but were listed on the lineup card because manager Gene Mauch couldnt find out if the visiting Giants were starting a LHP or a RHP.  LHP O'Dell started as Mauch found out when the lineup cards were exchanged, so RHB Coker took field for Short at C in top of first.  Del Greco and Bobby Smith, both RHBs, manned the two OF positions. In home first, Del Greco led off and singled of O'Dell.  Giamnts' manager Al Dark then brought in RHP Sam Jones.  LHB Tony Gonzalez pinch hit for Smith.  Later in first, LHB Clay Dalrymple pinch hit for Coker as Phiilies scored 4 runs in first.  Jones went on to pitch 5 more innings. Giants won in 10 innings, 8-7. 
                           
                          The most famous Chism is Lou Gehrig who was in starting lineup for road game as the SS.  He batted and was replaced but officially has 1 game at SS.  Tonly Oliva "started". at 2B 4 times on the road in his career after the rule change.
                           
                          For those deriving fielding stats from Retrosheet event files, Chisms are a pain in the rear.  But they also have to worry about "Cuylers".  These are defensive subs announced before the game ended precipitously (such as rain) before they actually took the field.  Such players are not credited with a defensive game, only a batting game.  It wasn't Kiki, it was Milt Cuyler who was the first Retrosheet had to deal with.
                           
                          Clem Comly
                           .
                        • Mike Emeigh
                          ... You re looking at the comment, not the cite in the body of the rule: When a player listed in the starting lineup is substituted for before he plays on
                          Message 12 of 18 , Nov 7, 2010
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                            On 11/5/2010 2:40 PM, swprod@... wrote:
                            > > On 11/5/2010 12:03 PM, swprod@... <mailto:swprod%40sonic.net>
                            > wrote:
                            > >> I don't see any reason to question whether ANY player who is scratched
                            > >> before a game begins would or should be credited in any way with being
                            > >> in the game. That's probably why it's not explicitly discussed in the
                            > >> rules.
                            > >
                            > > Except that it IS explicitly discussed in rule 10.20.
                            > > --
                            > > Mike Emeigh
                            >
                            > I don't see it - nothing about a pre-game scratch, just about a game being
                            > called.
                            >
                            > Rule 10.20 Comment: The official scorer shall credit a player with having
                            > played on defense if such player is on the field for at least one pitch or
                            > play. If a game is called (for example, because of rain) after a
                            > substitute player enters the field but before a pitch is thrown or a play
                            > is made, the official scorer shall credit such player with a game played
                            > in the batting statistics but shall not credit such player in any
                            > defensive statistics. If a game is called (for example, because of rain)
                            > after a relief pitcher enters the field but before a pitch is thrown or a
                            > play is made, the official scorer shall credit such pitcher with a game
                            > played in the batting statistics but shall not credit such pitcher in any
                            > defensive statistics or with a game pitched.
                            >

                            You're looking at the comment, not the cite in the body of the rule:

                            When a player listed in the starting lineup is substituted for before he
                            plays on defense, he shall not receive credit in the defensive
                            statistics (fielding) unless he actually plays that position during the
                            game. All such players, however, shall be credited with one game played
                            (in batting statistics) so long as they are announced into the game or
                            listed on the official lineup card.
                            --
                            Mike Emeigh
                            MWE55inNC@...

                            "ManagementSpeak: Phase II. Translation: Never." -- Bob Lewis
                          • Clem Comly
                            Under current rules, he can get a game but it snaps his consecutive game played streak. In other words, all games are not created equal. See 10.23 (c) in
                            Message 13 of 18 , Nov 7, 2010
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                              Under current rules, he can get a game but it snaps his consecutive game played streak.  In other words, all games are not created equal.
                               
                              See 10.23 (c) in Official Rules:

                              CONSECUTIVE-GAME PLAYING STREAK. A consecutive-game playing streak shall be extended if a player plays one half-inning on defense or if the player completes a time at bat by reaching base or being put out. A pinch-running appearance only shall not extend the streak. If a player is ejected from a game by an umpire before such player can comply with the requirements of this Rule 10.23(c), such player’s streak shall continue.

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 2:08 PM
                              Subject: Re: [baseball-databank] Stat question ('Game Started')

                               Jim, 
                              Lou Gehrig had to play in the games during his streak. One series of games he had Lumbago and he was slated to bat leadoff for the Yankees (they were the visiting team) and then he took the field for one recorded out before coming out of the game. As I understand it, a player who is scratched from the lineup before he even steps foot on the diamond cannot be credited for being in the game.
                              Rob


                               

                            • swprod@sonic.net
                              I wonder if Gehrig ever got thrown out of a game while exchanging lineup cards...
                              Message 14 of 18 , Nov 8, 2010
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                                I wonder if Gehrig ever got thrown out of a game while exchanging lineup
                                cards...

                                > Under current rules, he can get a game but it snaps his consecutive game
                                > played streak. In other words, all games are not created equal.
                                >
                                > See 10.23 (c) in Official Rules:
                                > CONSECUTIVE-GAME PLAYING STREAK. A consecutive-game playing streak shall
                                > be extended if a player plays one half-inning on defense or if the player
                                > completes a time at bat by reaching base or being put out. A pinch-running
                                > appearance only shall not extend the streak. If a player is ejected from a
                                > game by an umpire before such player can comply with the requirements of
                                > this Rule 10.23(c), such player’s streak shall continue.
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: robert bluestein
                                > To: baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 2:08 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [baseball-databank] Stat question ('Game Started')
                                >
                                >
                                > Jim,
                                > Lou Gehrig had to play in the games during his streak. One series of
                                > games he had Lumbago and he was slated to bat leadoff for the Yankees
                                > (they were the visiting team) and then he took the field for one
                                > recorded out before coming out of the game. As I understand it, a player
                                > who is scratched from the lineup before he even steps foot on the
                                > diamond cannot be credited for being in the game.
                                > Rob
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • lukegofannon
                                Not sure if this is a related event in the Gehrig streak. Mentioned on pp. 64-65 of William C. Kashatus s biography of Gehrig: on July 14, 1934, Gehrig was
                                Message 15 of 18 , Nov 8, 2010
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                                  Not sure if this is a related event in the Gehrig streak.

                                  Mentioned on pp. 64-65 of William C. Kashatus's biography of Gehrig:
                                  on July 14, 1934, Gehrig was suffering from a sore back that made it
                                  impossible for him to play the field. He asked the manager to insert
                                  him in the leadoff spot, so he could bat, leave the game, and keep his
                                  playing streak alive. He got a hit (top of the first) and was lifted
                                  for a pinch runner, so he never really played shortstop in the game.

                                  Apparently, this earned Gehrig some bad press for placing so much
                                  importance on keeping his streak alive.




                                  --- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com, robert bluestein
                                  <robertbluesteinphotography@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Jim,
                                  > Lou Gehrig had to play in the games during his streak. One series of
                                  games he
                                  > had Lumbago and he was slated to bat leadoff for the Yankees (they
                                  were the
                                  > visiting team) and then he took the field for one recorded out before
                                  coming out
                                  > of the game. As I understand it, a player who is scratched from the
                                  lineup
                                  > before he even steps foot on the diamond cannot be credited for being
                                  in the
                                  > game.
                                  > Rob
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ________________________________
                                  > From: Tangotiger tom@...
                                  > To: baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Fri, November 5, 2010 12:36:10 PM
                                  > Subject: Re: [baseball-databank] Stat question ('Game Started')
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > > I don't see any reason to question whether ANY player who is
                                  scratched
                                  > > before a game begins would or should be credited in any way with
                                  being in
                                  > > the game. That's probably why it's not explicitly discussed in the
                                  rules.
                                  > >
                                  > > Jim
                                  >
                                  > There might good reasons for that. For one, I presume that any
                                  pitcher
                                  > scratched due to injury prior to pitching will not be available that
                                  game
                                  > even if he's "cured" during the game. There are other situations
                                  where a
                                  > player is announced into the game, and doesn't play and is not
                                  eligible to
                                  > play that game.
                                  >
                                  > How all that is handled "officially" is, well, it's not right or
                                  wrong.
                                  > It's just official.
                                  >
                                  > Ideally, we would record such games accurately, and create the
                                  necessary
                                  > categories to capture those games. You could have a category called
                                  > "ineligible to play". But, there's no such official category, so,
                                  there's
                                  > sometimes square pegs / round holes that happens.
                                  >
                                  > There's no official "reached on error" category, so a few of us make
                                  up
                                  > our own definition. "Batting average on balls in play" (BABIP) is not
                                  > official either, and for those of us who track it, we include SF in
                                  the
                                  > denominator, and some of us include reaching on error in the
                                  numerator.
                                  >
                                  > If David Palmer pitches a 5-inning perfect game, MLB at one time
                                  > considered it a perfect game, and now does not. And who knows, maybe
                                  > they'll change their mind.
                                  >
                                  > All to say: while it's nice to be able to report the numbers by the
                                  > official definitions, we are not beholden to the whims of MLB scoring
                                  > committee to do so.
                                  >
                                  > Tom
                                  >
                                • robert bluestein
                                  Interesting... * On April 23, 1933, an errant pitch by Washington Senators hurler struck Gehrig in the head. Although almost knocked unconscious, Gehrig
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Nov 8, 2010
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                                    Interesting...
                                     
                                    On April 23, 1933, an errant pitch by Washington Senators hurler struck Gehrig in the head. Although almost knocked unconscious, Gehrig recovered and remained in the game. On June 14, 1933, Gehrig was ejected from a game, along with manager Joe McCarthy, but he had already been at bat, so he got credit for playing the game. On July 13, 1934, Gehrig suffered a "lumbago attack" and had to be assisted off the field. In the next day's away game, he was listed in the lineup as "shortstop", batting lead-off. In his first and only plate appearance, he singled and was promptly replaced by a pinch runner to rest his throbbing back, never taking the field. A&E's Biography speculated that this illness, which he also described as "a cold in his back", might have been the first symptom of his debilitating disease


                                    From: "swprod@..." <swprod@...>
                                    To: baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Mon, November 8, 2010 8:14:29 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [baseball-databank] Stat question ('Game Started')

                                     

                                    I wonder if Gehrig ever got thrown out of a game while exchanging lineup
                                    cards...

                                    > Under current rules, he can get a game but it snaps his consecutive game
                                    > played streak. In other words, all games are not created equal.
                                    >
                                    > See 10.23 (c) in Official Rules:
                                    > CONSECUTIVE-GAME PLAYING STREAK. A consecutive-game playing streak shall
                                    > be extended if a player plays one half-inning on defense or if the player
                                    > completes a time at bat by reaching base or being put out. A pinch-running
                                    > appearance only shall not extend the streak. If a player is ejected from a
                                    > game by an umpire before such player can comply with the requirements of
                                    > this Rule 10.23(c), such player’s streak shall continue.
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: robert bluestein
                                    > To:
                                    ymailto="mailto:baseball-databank%40yahoogroups.com">baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 2:08 PM
                                    > Subject: Re: [baseball-databank] Stat question ('Game Started')
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Jim,
                                    > Lou Gehrig had to play in the games during his streak. One series of
                                    > games he had Lumbago and he was slated to bat leadoff for the Yankees
                                    > (they were the visiting team) and then he took the field for one
                                    > recorded out before coming out of the game. As I understand it, a player
                                    > who is scratched from the lineup before he even steps foot on the
                                    > diamond cannot be credited for being in the game.
                                    > Rob
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                  • KJOK
                                    This is from Total Baseball - I believe it also applies to the Lahman database and, by likely therefore applies to BDB: BATTERS FACING PITCHER Unavailable
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Feb 1, 2011
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      This is from Total Baseball - I believe it also applies to the Lahman database and, by likely therefore applies to BDB:


                                      BATTERS FACING PITCHER Unavailable before 1903 in the National
                                      League. The 1903 and 1908 data was not published and has been reconstructed.

                                      BFP was unavailable for the American League of 1901-1907. Excepting the NL of 1876-1888 and the AA of 1882 and 1884-1887, for which John Tattersall calculated BFP from box scores, earlier years in both leagues have had their BFP constructed from available data in this manner:

                                      subtract league base hits from league at-bats, divide by league innings pitched, multiply by the pitcher's innings, and add his hits allowed, walks, hit by pitch, and sacrifice hits, if available.

                                      THANKS,
                                      KJOK

                                      --- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com, David Carter <terpsfan101@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Clem,
                                      >
                                      > I spent alot of time cleaning up the BFP data earlier this year. I worked from multiple sources (Spalding/Reach Guides, Newspapers, and Palmer's Data) and estimated BFP when it wasn't available. The BFP/IP for any player/season is well within an acceptable range. Like I said, I spent about a month going over the BFP data and deciding what sources to use. Check out my custom Baseball Databank Database that I made available earlier this year:
                                      >
                                      > http://www.mediafire.com/?newmuztnwww
                                      >
                                      > --- On Thu, 10/7/10, Clem Comly <ccomly@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > From: Clem Comly <ccomly@...>
                                      > Subject: [baseball-databank] BFP issues
                                      > To: baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Date: Thursday, October 7, 2010, 8:29 AM
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >  
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I was using the data from last spring
                                      > to look at BFP/IP.  Doing this I found a few impossible BFP numbers and a
                                      > few inconsistencies with Retrosheet/Palmer data where the latter's data looks
                                      > better.  I don't have the Retro data en masse,  just was manually
                                      > looking up the best and worst BFP/IP seasons per BDB on the Retro
                                      > site.
                                      >  
                                      >  I had figured out post-1900 leaders but when I checked against
                                      > Retrosheet the BFPs
                                      > did not match so I didn't show
                                      > them
                                      >                      
                                      > :                                       
                                      > BDB
                                      > Retro
                                      >                                                               
                                      > BFP  BFP
                                      > 3.64  Dickson, Walt     
                                      > 1914  PIT  FL    935  1035
                                      > 3.65  Willett,
                                      > Ed           1913 
                                      > DET  AL   883 
                                      > 1002
                                      > ==============================
                                      > 5.08  Vangilder, Elam 
                                      > 1927  SLA  AL  1031  931
                                      >  
                                      > When I extended my search to 19th century, lowest
                                      > BFP/IP were:
                                      >  BFP/IP best and worst season (minimum 150 IP)
                                      >  2.36 Healy,
                                      > Egyptian    1891 Balt AA
                                      >  2.79 Madden,
                                      > Kid       1891 Balt AA
                                      >  3.18 McMahon,
                                      > Sadie  1891 Balt AA
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > 1891 is even uglier than I thought.
                                      > 1891 Baltimore AA only had 7
                                      > pitchers--2 were below 10 games pitched with
                                      > 20-60 IP: those 2 had BFPs of
                                      > 0.
                                      > Of the other 5, 4 have BFP/IP below 3.  The last, Sadie McMahon had
                                      > 1601 BFP
                                      > in 503 IP with 493 hits and 149 walks.
                                      >
                                      > 1891 NL has 2 teams
                                      > with 0 BFP.  If you subtract those teams IPs from league
                                      > totals the
                                      > other 6 have about 7300 IP and 6400 BFP!
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Clem
                                      > Comly
                                      >
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