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Re: Games played

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  • Tom Timmerman
    Hello all, Looking through the archives, I see that John asked the question I was about to ask, but I don t see where it was ever answered. Basically the
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 1, 2006
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      Hello all,
      Looking through the archives, I see that John asked the question I
      was about to ask, but I don't see where it was ever answered.
      Basically the question is: How do you determine games played for
      those appearing in both the batting and pitching tables?

      I merged the batting and pitching tables (from the Lahman Access
      version) and found this:
      Batting.G = Pitching.G 28,885 cases
      Batting.G < Pitching.G 2,521 cases
      (All but 6 of these are 1997-2004. 2005 has none of these cases)
      Batting.G > Pitching.G 5492 cases
      (These are spread evenly across all years and appear to reflect
      normal examples of position players doing some pitching. For these I
      assume that Batting.G is the correct number of games played.)

      Anybody got solution?

      Thanks,
      Tom


      --- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com, "john_rickert"
      <rickert@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Is there any plan to put players games played in the baseball
      databank?
      >
      > Before 1998, everyone's games played was included in the Batting
      file,
      > but since then, the pitchers' totals are no longer listed in
      either section.
      > e.g. last year, Johann Santana appeared in 34 games.
      > In the batting section Santana is listed as batting in 2 games
      (presumably
      > interleague games)
      > in the pitching section, he is listed as pitching in 34 games.
      >
      > Randy Johnson appeared in 35 games.
      > Johnson is listed as batting in 33 games, pitching in 35.
      >
      > Brooks Kieschnick appeared in 77 games.
      > Kieschnick is listed as batting in 75 games, pitching in 32.
      > How do we determine the actual number of games played for
      Kieschnick.
      >
      > And these are all obvious players. Most years, there is some
      pitcher who makes some
      > pinch running/pinch fielding appearance. How do we find these for
      the years since inter-
      > league play started?
      >
      > A less obvious player is Jason Simontacchi, who played in 15 games.
      > Simontacchi is listed as batting in 14 games, pitching in 13.
      >
      > john rickert
      >
    • KJOK
      Tom: Don t know if I have a solution but: 1. Batting.G = Pitching.G 28,885 cases. Should be no issue with these. 2. Batting.G
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 1, 2006
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        Tom:

        Don't know if I have a "solution" but:

        1. Batting.G = Pitching.G 28,885 cases.

        Should be no issue with these.

        2. Batting.G < Pitching.G 2,521 cases (All but 6 of
        these are 1997-2004. 2005 has none of these cases)

        I believe these are mostly all American League
        pitchers. If the pitcher batted (such as in an
        interleague game, or where team lost the DH) or he
        Pinch Ran/Pinch Hit/played another position, then he
        got a batting game from 1997-2004. On games where he
        didn't bat, he did not get a batting game, but a
        pitching game only. Ideally either 1973-1996 & 2005
        should be consistent with that, or else 1997-2004
        should all be "re-done" to be consistent with
        1973-1996 & 2005.

        The 6 other cases are possibly data errors, and would
        need to be looked at individually.

        Batting.G > Pitching.G 5492 cases.

        These should mostly be where either, as you described,
        position players pitched, OR where pitchers pinch hit
        or pinch ran or played another position within a
        season.

        THANKS,
        Kevin

        --- Tom Timmerman <timmermant@...> wrote:

        > Hello all,
        > Looking through the archives, I see that John asked
        > the question I
        > was about to ask, but I don't see where it was ever
        > answered.
        > Basically the question is: How do you determine
        > games played for
        > those appearing in both the batting and pitching
        > tables?
        >
        > I merged the batting and pitching tables (from the
        > Lahman Access
        > version) and found this:
        > Batting.G = Pitching.G 28,885 cases
        > Batting.G < Pitching.G 2,521 cases
        > (All but 6 of these are 1997-2004. 2005 has none
        > of these cases)
        > Batting.G > Pitching.G 5492 cases
        > (These are spread evenly across all years and
        > appear to reflect
        > normal examples of position players doing some
        > pitching. For these I
        > assume that Batting.G is the correct number of games
        > played.)
        >
        > Anybody got solution?
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Tom
        >
        >
        > --- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com,
        > "john_rickert"
        > <rickert@...> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > Is there any plan to put players games played in
        > the baseball
        > databank?
        > >
        > > Before 1998, everyone's games played was included
        > in the Batting
        > file,
        > > but since then, the pitchers' totals are no longer
        > listed in
        > either section.
        > > e.g. last year, Johann Santana appeared in 34
        > games.
        > > In the batting section Santana is listed as
        > batting in 2 games
        > (presumably
        > > interleague games)
        > > in the pitching section, he is listed as pitching
        > in 34 games.
        > >
        > > Randy Johnson appeared in 35 games.
        > > Johnson is listed as batting in 33 games,
        > pitching in 35.
        > >
        > > Brooks Kieschnick appeared in 77 games.
        > > Kieschnick is listed as batting in 75 games,
        > pitching in 32.
        > > How do we determine the actual number of games
        > played for
        > Kieschnick.
        > >
        > > And these are all obvious players. Most years,
        > there is some
        > pitcher who makes some
        > > pinch running/pinch fielding appearance. How do we
        > find these for
        > the years since inter-
        > > league play started?
        > >
        > > A less obvious player is Jason Simontacchi, who
        > played in 15 games.
        > > Simontacchi is listed as batting in 14 games,
        > pitching in 13.
        > >
        > > john rickert
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >


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      • Clem Comly
        No. I found 8 Phillies pitchers from 2004 with Gp Gb. Cormier was 5 low (per Retrosheet.org his P games were correct but his batting games were low).
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 1, 2006
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          No.  I found 8 Phillies pitchers from 2004 with Gp > Gb.  Cormier was 5 low (per Retrosheet.org his P games were correct but his batting games were low).  Wagner and Myers were 3 low. Abbot was 2 low.  4 were 1 game low.
           
          Clem Comly
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: KJOK
          Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 3:37 PM
          Subject: Re: [baseball-databank] Re: Games played



          2. Batting.G < Pitching.G 2,521 cases (All but 6 of
          these are 1997-2004. 2005 has none of these cases)

          I believe these are mostly all American League
          pitchers. If the pitcher batted (such as in an
          interleague game, or where team lost the DH) or he
          Pinch Ran/Pinch Hit/played another position, then he
          got a batting game from 1997-2004. On games where he
          didn't bat, he did not get a batting game, but a
          pitching game only. Ideally either 1973-1996 & 2005
          should be consistent with that, or else 1997-2004
          should all be "re-done" to be consistent with
          1973-1996 & 2005.

          .

        • Clem Comly
          I went thru the dailies at Retrosheet for a couple of these Phillies Ps--it looks like the missing Gb are for games on the road against AL teams so it appears
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 2, 2006
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            I went thru the dailies at Retrosheet for a couple of these Phillies  Ps--it looks like the missing Gb are for games on the road against AL teams so it appears to be the DH that is the problem for those years.
             
            Clem Comly
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 11:26 PM
            Subject: Re: [baseball-databank] Re: Games played

            No.  I found 8 Phillies pitchers from 2004 with Gp > Gb.  Cormier was 5 low (per Retrosheet.org his P games were correct but his batting games were low).  Wagner and Myers were 3 low. Abbot was 2 low.  4 were 1 game low.
             
            Clem Comly
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: KJOK
            Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 3:37 PM
            Subject: Re: [baseball-databank] Re: Games played



            2. Batting.G < Pitching.G 2,521 cases (All but 6 of
            these are 1997-2004. 2005 has none of these cases)

            I believe these are mostly all American League
            pitchers. If the pitcher batted (such as in an
            interleague game, or where team lost the DH) or he
            Pinch Ran/Pinch Hit/played another position, then he
            got a batting game from 1997-2004. On games where he
            didn't bat, he did not get a batting game, but a
            pitching game only. Ideally either 1973-1996 & 2005
            should be consistent with that, or else 1997-2004
            should all be "re-done" to be consistent with
            1973-1996 & 2005.

            .

          • KJOK
            Whew, OK, had me worried for a second. DH games are the problem, for AL AND NL pitchers. I don t exactly remember the source of the data those years (Sean or
            Message 5 of 9 , Sep 2, 2006
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              Whew, OK, had me worried for a second. DH games are
              the problem, for AL AND NL pitchers. I don't exactly
              remember the source of the data those years (Sean or
              Sean?), but I'm guessing the source accounted for
              pitcher batting games in AL rule games differently
              from what had been done in the Lahman database in
              prevous years.

              Now the question is - which methodology is right, if
              there even is a 'correct' methodology? What does
              mlb.com have?

              THANKS,
              Kevin

              --- Clem Comly <ccomly@...> wrote:

              > I went thru the dailies at Retrosheet for a couple
              > of these Phillies Ps--it looks like the missing Gb
              > are for games on the road against AL teams so it
              > appears to be the DH that is the problem for those
              > years.
              >
              > Clem Comly
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Clem Comly
              > To: baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 11:26 PM
              > Subject: Re: [baseball-databank] Re: Games played
              >
              >
              >
              > No. I found 8 Phillies pitchers from 2004 with Gp
              > > Gb. Cormier was 5 low (per Retrosheet.org his P
              > games were correct but his batting games were low).
              > Wagner and Myers were 3 low. Abbot was 2 low. 4
              > were 1 game low.
              >
              > Clem Comly
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: KJOK
              > To: baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 3:37 PM
              > Subject: Re: [baseball-databank] Re: Games
              > played
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > 2. Batting.G < Pitching.G 2,521 cases (All but 6
              > of
              > these are 1997-2004. 2005 has none of these
              > cases)
              >
              > I believe these are mostly all American League
              > pitchers. If the pitcher batted (such as in an
              > interleague game, or where team lost the DH) or
              > he
              > Pinch Ran/Pinch Hit/played another position,
              > then he
              > got a batting game from 1997-2004. On games
              > where he
              > didn't bat, he did not get a batting game, but a
              > pitching game only. Ideally either 1973-1996 &
              > 2005
              > should be consistent with that, or else
              > 1997-2004
              > should all be "re-done" to be consistent with
              > 1973-1996 & 2005.
              >
              >
              >
              > .
              >
              >
              >
              >


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            • Theodore Turocy
              ... For recent seasons, mlb.com is clearly only reporting games in which the pitcher actually appeared in the batting lineup. However, for earlier seasons, the
              Message 6 of 9 , Sep 3, 2006
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                On 9/2/06, KJOK <kjokbaseball@...> wrote:

                Now the question is - which methodology is right, if
                there even is a 'correct' methodology? What does
                mlb.com have?







                For recent seasons, mlb.com is clearly only reporting games in which the pitcher actually appeared in the batting lineup. However, for earlier seasons, the batting statistics report all games.  At least, this is what Randy Johnson's totals imply.

                The closest thing I can find in the Official Rules on this is from 10.21:

                "When a player listed in the starting lineup for the visiting club is substituted for before he plays defensively, he shall not receive credit in the defensive statistics (fielding), unless he actually plays that position during a game. All such players, however, shall be credited with one game played (in "batting statistics") as long as they are announced into the game or listed on the official lineup card."

                I know this doesn't directly apply to this discussion, but my reading of the rule suggests that the "games played" column in batting statistics is intended to be all games played, not just ones in which the player bats.  Further, being the starting pitcher in a game where the DH is used still results in you being "listed in the starting lineup," no?

                But what rule 10 says, and what actually happens, are sometimes two different things. Don't ask me about rule 10.18(g). ;)

                TT



              • Clem Comly
                I just looked at mlb.com and there Cormier has 5 less Gb than Gp in BOTH 2004 and 2005. Clem
                Message 7 of 9 , Sep 3, 2006
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                  I just looked at mlb.com and there Cormier has 5 less Gb than Gp in BOTH 2004 and 2005.
                   
                  Clem
                • Paul Wendt
                  ... For what it s worth, I understand from phone and email exchanges (months to years ago) that Pete Palmer has tried to implement this consistently. None of
                  Message 8 of 9 , Oct 1, 2006
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                    3 Sep 2006, Theodore Turocy wrote:

                    > The closest thing I can find in the Official Rules on this is from 10.21:
                    >
                    > "When a player listed in the starting lineup for the visiting club is
                    > substituted for before he plays defensively, he shall not receive
                    > credit in the defensive statistics (fielding), unless he actually
                    > plays that position during a game. All such players, however, shall be
                    > credited with one game played (in "batting statistics") as long as
                    > they are announced into the game or listed on the official lineup
                    > card."
                    >
                    > I know this doesn't directly apply to this discussion, but my reading
                    > of the rule suggests that the "games played" column in batting
                    > statistics is intended to be all games played, not just ones in which
                    > the player bats.

                    For what it's worth, I understand from phone and email exchanges (months
                    to years ago) that Pete Palmer has tried to implement this consistently.
                    None of our exchanges has concerned 1973 to date but I may have asked
                    generally and I believe that he would have mentioned the DH era if there
                    were a difference.

                    Paul Wendt

                    > Further, being the starting pitcher in a game where the DH is used
                    > still results in you being "listed in the starting lineup," no?
                    >
                    > But what rule 10 says, and what actually happens, are sometimes two
                    > different things. Don't ask me about rule 10.18(g). ;)
                    >
                    > TT
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