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Re: Different teamID's for A.A. Baltimore teams

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  • KJOK
    I believe it s because the original team of AA Baltimore Orioles dropped out of the AA after the 1889 season. In the 1890 season, when the Brooklyn Gladiators
    Message 1 of 5 , Oct 2, 2004
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      I believe it's because the original team of AA Baltimore Orioles
      dropped out of the AA after the 1889 season.

      In the 1890 season, when the Brooklyn Gladiators folded in August,
      the Baltimore team playing in the Atlantic Association took their
      place in the AA for the remainder of the 1890 season as the "new"
      Baltimore Orioles. This team then later transferred to the NL.

      THANKS,
      Kevin Johnson


      --- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com, "wknight94"
      <wknight94@y...> wrote:
      >
      > Why do the 1890 and 1891 A.A. Baltimore Orioles have a different
      > teamID (BL3) than the A.A. Baltimore Orioles from 1882 to 1889
      (BL2)?
      >
      >
      > select name, teamid, lgid, yearid from teams where franchid = "BLO"
      >
      > +-------------------+--------+------+--------+
      > | name | teamid | lgid | yearid |
      > +-------------------+--------+------+--------+
      > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1882 |
      > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1883 |
      > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1884 |
      > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1885 |
      > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1886 |
      > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1887 |
      > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1888 |
      > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1889 |
      > | Baltimore Orioles | BL3 | AA | 1890 |
      > | Baltimore Orioles | BL3 | AA | 1891 |
      > +-------------------+--------+------+--------+
      >
      > Thanks.
      >
      > Bill Knight
    • Paul Wendt
      Bill Knight & others, The Baltimore Orioles were one base ball club, 1882 to 1899. Around 1890, managed by Bill Barnie and owned by Harry von der Horst. After
      Message 2 of 5 , Oct 3, 2004
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        Bill Knight & others,

        The Baltimore Orioles were one base ball club, 1882 to 1899.
        Around 1890, managed by Bill Barnie and owned by Harry von der Horst.

        After the 1889 season, the Brooklyn, Cinci, Baltimore, and Kansas City
        clubs abandoned their AA franchises (*in the business of baseball, not the
        baseball database sense). The first two received NL franchises (a sure
        thing, if not formally arranged in advance; the cities were coveted).
        Baltimore and KC joined minor leagues. The AA awarded franchises to three
        strong minor league clubs and to a new club in Brooklyn. The latter
        folded mid-season and the Baltimore Orioles replaced it.

        When the NL and AA merged after the 1891 season, the 8 NL clubs and 4 of
        the AA clubs including Baltimore retained their franchises*.

        teamID BL3 apparently identifies that franchise* but I don't think teamID
        generally does that. The structure isn't easy to perfect; I'm not sure it
        is worth improving short of incorporating minor and independent clubs.

        There has been some mention of a clubs project for the SABR 19c Cmte.

        P/\/ \/\/t
        Paul Wendt, Watertown MA, USA <pgw@...>
        Chair, 19th Century Committee, SABR
        Owner-Administrator, 19cBB (egroup at Yahoo)


        > Why do the 1890 and 1891 A.A. Baltimore Orioles have a different
        > teamID (BL3) than the A.A. Baltimore Orioles from 1882 to 1889 (BL2)?
        >
        > select name, teamid, lgid, yearid from teams where franchid = "BLO"
        >
        > +-------------------+--------+------+--------+
        > | name | teamid | lgid | yearid |
        > +-------------------+--------+------+--------+
        > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1882 |
        > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1883 |
        > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1884 |
        > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1885 |
        > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1886 |
        > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1887 |
        > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1888 |
        > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1889 |
        > | Baltimore Orioles | BL3 | AA | 1890 |
        > | Baltimore Orioles | BL3 | AA | 1891 |
        > +-------------------+--------+------+--------+
        >
        > Thanks.
        >
        > Bill Knight
      • Paul Wendt
        ... The present IDs enable selection of the whole 1882-1899 history and its subsets demarcated 1889-1890 or 1891-1892. What practical problems does it create?
        Message 3 of 5 , Oct 3, 2004
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          > > Why do the 1890 and 1891 A.A. Baltimore Orioles have a different
          > > teamID (BL3) than the A.A. Baltimore Orioles from 1882 to 1889 (BL2)?
          > >
          > > select name, teamid, lgid, yearid from teams where franchid = "BLO"

          The present IDs enable selection of the whole 1882-1899 history and its
          subsets demarcated 1889-1890 or 1891-1892. What practical problems does
          it create?

          Paul Wendt
        • wknight94
          These are great explanations for why they have different team ID s. From the sounds of it, however, they should also have different franchise ID s. In fact,
          Message 4 of 5 , Oct 3, 2004
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            These are great explanations for why they have different team ID's.
            From the sounds of it, however, they should also have different
            franchise ID's. In fact, it sounds like the Baltimore A.A. team of
            1890 and 1891 is more closely related to the Brooklyn A.A. team of
            1890 than to the pre-1890 Baltimore A.A. teams.

            As far as what the problem is with this, it's simply a matter of
            team grouping. At least in my humble opinion. Not a hige deal -
            just wondering really. I know things baseball-related get very
            difficult to follow this far back.

            Bill Knight


            --- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wendt <pgw@t...>
            wrote:
            > Bill Knight & others,
            >
            > The Baltimore Orioles were one base ball club, 1882 to 1899.
            > Around 1890, managed by Bill Barnie and owned by Harry von der
            Horst.
            >
            > After the 1889 season, the Brooklyn, Cinci, Baltimore, and Kansas
            City
            > clubs abandoned their AA franchises (*in the business of baseball,
            not the
            > baseball database sense). The first two received NL franchises (a
            sure
            > thing, if not formally arranged in advance; the cities were
            coveted).
            > Baltimore and KC joined minor leagues. The AA awarded franchises
            to three
            > strong minor league clubs and to a new club in Brooklyn. The
            latter
            > folded mid-season and the Baltimore Orioles replaced it.
            >
            > When the NL and AA merged after the 1891 season, the 8 NL clubs
            and 4 of
            > the AA clubs including Baltimore retained their franchises*.
            >
            > teamID BL3 apparently identifies that franchise* but I don't think
            teamID
            > generally does that. The structure isn't easy to perfect; I'm not
            sure it
            > is worth improving short of incorporating minor and independent
            clubs.
            >
            > There has been some mention of a clubs project for the SABR 19c
            Cmte.
            >
            > P/\/ \/\/t
            > Paul Wendt, Watertown MA, USA <pgw@w...>
            > Chair, 19th Century Committee, SABR
            > Owner-Administrator, 19cBB (egroup at Yahoo)
            >
            >
            > > Why do the 1890 and 1891 A.A. Baltimore Orioles have a different
            > > teamID (BL3) than the A.A. Baltimore Orioles from 1882 to 1889
            (BL2)?
            > >
            > > select name, teamid, lgid, yearid from teams where franchid
            = "BLO"
            > >
            > > +-------------------+--------+------+--------+
            > > | name | teamid | lgid | yearid |
            > > +-------------------+--------+------+--------+
            > > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1882 |
            > > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1883 |
            > > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1884 |
            > > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1885 |
            > > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1886 |
            > > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1887 |
            > > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1888 |
            > > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1889 |
            > > | Baltimore Orioles | BL3 | AA | 1890 |
            > > | Baltimore Orioles | BL3 | AA | 1891 |
            > > +-------------------+--------+------+--------+
            > >
            > > Thanks.
            > >
            > > Bill Knight
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