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Different teamID's for A.A. Baltimore teams

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  • wknight94
    Why do the 1890 and 1891 A.A. Baltimore Orioles have a different teamID (BL3) than the A.A. Baltimore Orioles from 1882 to 1889 (BL2)? select name, teamid,
    Message 1 of 5 , Oct 1, 2004
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      Why do the 1890 and 1891 A.A. Baltimore Orioles have a different
      teamID (BL3) than the A.A. Baltimore Orioles from 1882 to 1889 (BL2)?


      select name, teamid, lgid, yearid from teams where franchid = "BLO"

      +-------------------+--------+------+--------+
      | name | teamid | lgid | yearid |
      +-------------------+--------+------+--------+
      | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1882 |
      | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1883 |
      | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1884 |
      | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1885 |
      | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1886 |
      | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1887 |
      | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1888 |
      | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1889 |
      | Baltimore Orioles | BL3 | AA | 1890 |
      | Baltimore Orioles | BL3 | AA | 1891 |
      +-------------------+--------+------+--------+

      Thanks.

      Bill Knight
    • KJOK
      I believe it s because the original team of AA Baltimore Orioles dropped out of the AA after the 1889 season. In the 1890 season, when the Brooklyn Gladiators
      Message 2 of 5 , Oct 2, 2004
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        I believe it's because the original team of AA Baltimore Orioles
        dropped out of the AA after the 1889 season.

        In the 1890 season, when the Brooklyn Gladiators folded in August,
        the Baltimore team playing in the Atlantic Association took their
        place in the AA for the remainder of the 1890 season as the "new"
        Baltimore Orioles. This team then later transferred to the NL.

        THANKS,
        Kevin Johnson


        --- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com, "wknight94"
        <wknight94@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Why do the 1890 and 1891 A.A. Baltimore Orioles have a different
        > teamID (BL3) than the A.A. Baltimore Orioles from 1882 to 1889
        (BL2)?
        >
        >
        > select name, teamid, lgid, yearid from teams where franchid = "BLO"
        >
        > +-------------------+--------+------+--------+
        > | name | teamid | lgid | yearid |
        > +-------------------+--------+------+--------+
        > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1882 |
        > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1883 |
        > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1884 |
        > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1885 |
        > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1886 |
        > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1887 |
        > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1888 |
        > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1889 |
        > | Baltimore Orioles | BL3 | AA | 1890 |
        > | Baltimore Orioles | BL3 | AA | 1891 |
        > +-------------------+--------+------+--------+
        >
        > Thanks.
        >
        > Bill Knight
      • Paul Wendt
        Bill Knight & others, The Baltimore Orioles were one base ball club, 1882 to 1899. Around 1890, managed by Bill Barnie and owned by Harry von der Horst. After
        Message 3 of 5 , Oct 3, 2004
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          Bill Knight & others,

          The Baltimore Orioles were one base ball club, 1882 to 1899.
          Around 1890, managed by Bill Barnie and owned by Harry von der Horst.

          After the 1889 season, the Brooklyn, Cinci, Baltimore, and Kansas City
          clubs abandoned their AA franchises (*in the business of baseball, not the
          baseball database sense). The first two received NL franchises (a sure
          thing, if not formally arranged in advance; the cities were coveted).
          Baltimore and KC joined minor leagues. The AA awarded franchises to three
          strong minor league clubs and to a new club in Brooklyn. The latter
          folded mid-season and the Baltimore Orioles replaced it.

          When the NL and AA merged after the 1891 season, the 8 NL clubs and 4 of
          the AA clubs including Baltimore retained their franchises*.

          teamID BL3 apparently identifies that franchise* but I don't think teamID
          generally does that. The structure isn't easy to perfect; I'm not sure it
          is worth improving short of incorporating minor and independent clubs.

          There has been some mention of a clubs project for the SABR 19c Cmte.

          P/\/ \/\/t
          Paul Wendt, Watertown MA, USA <pgw@...>
          Chair, 19th Century Committee, SABR
          Owner-Administrator, 19cBB (egroup at Yahoo)


          > Why do the 1890 and 1891 A.A. Baltimore Orioles have a different
          > teamID (BL3) than the A.A. Baltimore Orioles from 1882 to 1889 (BL2)?
          >
          > select name, teamid, lgid, yearid from teams where franchid = "BLO"
          >
          > +-------------------+--------+------+--------+
          > | name | teamid | lgid | yearid |
          > +-------------------+--------+------+--------+
          > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1882 |
          > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1883 |
          > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1884 |
          > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1885 |
          > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1886 |
          > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1887 |
          > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1888 |
          > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1889 |
          > | Baltimore Orioles | BL3 | AA | 1890 |
          > | Baltimore Orioles | BL3 | AA | 1891 |
          > +-------------------+--------+------+--------+
          >
          > Thanks.
          >
          > Bill Knight
        • Paul Wendt
          ... The present IDs enable selection of the whole 1882-1899 history and its subsets demarcated 1889-1890 or 1891-1892. What practical problems does it create?
          Message 4 of 5 , Oct 3, 2004
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            > > Why do the 1890 and 1891 A.A. Baltimore Orioles have a different
            > > teamID (BL3) than the A.A. Baltimore Orioles from 1882 to 1889 (BL2)?
            > >
            > > select name, teamid, lgid, yearid from teams where franchid = "BLO"

            The present IDs enable selection of the whole 1882-1899 history and its
            subsets demarcated 1889-1890 or 1891-1892. What practical problems does
            it create?

            Paul Wendt
          • wknight94
            These are great explanations for why they have different team ID s. From the sounds of it, however, they should also have different franchise ID s. In fact,
            Message 5 of 5 , Oct 3, 2004
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              These are great explanations for why they have different team ID's.
              From the sounds of it, however, they should also have different
              franchise ID's. In fact, it sounds like the Baltimore A.A. team of
              1890 and 1891 is more closely related to the Brooklyn A.A. team of
              1890 than to the pre-1890 Baltimore A.A. teams.

              As far as what the problem is with this, it's simply a matter of
              team grouping. At least in my humble opinion. Not a hige deal -
              just wondering really. I know things baseball-related get very
              difficult to follow this far back.

              Bill Knight


              --- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wendt <pgw@t...>
              wrote:
              > Bill Knight & others,
              >
              > The Baltimore Orioles were one base ball club, 1882 to 1899.
              > Around 1890, managed by Bill Barnie and owned by Harry von der
              Horst.
              >
              > After the 1889 season, the Brooklyn, Cinci, Baltimore, and Kansas
              City
              > clubs abandoned their AA franchises (*in the business of baseball,
              not the
              > baseball database sense). The first two received NL franchises (a
              sure
              > thing, if not formally arranged in advance; the cities were
              coveted).
              > Baltimore and KC joined minor leagues. The AA awarded franchises
              to three
              > strong minor league clubs and to a new club in Brooklyn. The
              latter
              > folded mid-season and the Baltimore Orioles replaced it.
              >
              > When the NL and AA merged after the 1891 season, the 8 NL clubs
              and 4 of
              > the AA clubs including Baltimore retained their franchises*.
              >
              > teamID BL3 apparently identifies that franchise* but I don't think
              teamID
              > generally does that. The structure isn't easy to perfect; I'm not
              sure it
              > is worth improving short of incorporating minor and independent
              clubs.
              >
              > There has been some mention of a clubs project for the SABR 19c
              Cmte.
              >
              > P/\/ \/\/t
              > Paul Wendt, Watertown MA, USA <pgw@w...>
              > Chair, 19th Century Committee, SABR
              > Owner-Administrator, 19cBB (egroup at Yahoo)
              >
              >
              > > Why do the 1890 and 1891 A.A. Baltimore Orioles have a different
              > > teamID (BL3) than the A.A. Baltimore Orioles from 1882 to 1889
              (BL2)?
              > >
              > > select name, teamid, lgid, yearid from teams where franchid
              = "BLO"
              > >
              > > +-------------------+--------+------+--------+
              > > | name | teamid | lgid | yearid |
              > > +-------------------+--------+------+--------+
              > > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1882 |
              > > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1883 |
              > > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1884 |
              > > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1885 |
              > > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1886 |
              > > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1887 |
              > > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1888 |
              > > | Baltimore Orioles | BL2 | AA | 1889 |
              > > | Baltimore Orioles | BL3 | AA | 1890 |
              > > | Baltimore Orioles | BL3 | AA | 1891 |
              > > +-------------------+--------+------+--------+
              > >
              > > Thanks.
              > >
              > > Bill Knight
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