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Re: [baseball-databank] Re: Pitching Data

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  • Sean Forman
    ... Thank you Tom. We will certainly take you up on the offer. Sincerely, Sean Forman Baseball Stats! http://www.Baseball-Reference.com/ Baseball Analysis!
    Message 1 of 19 , Jan 4, 2004
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      tjruane wrote:
      > Sean Forman wrote:
      >
      > > Ahh, I didn't think we had SH and SF columns, but I was too lazy to
      > > check and took Tom's note to say they were in there. We have never
      > > had these columns, but would naturally add them if someone were
      > > offering to provide the data just as we would with any other
      > > dataset.
      >
      > I'm too busy working on the next release of the Retrosheet web-site,
      > transaction data and player data-base right now, but in a month or so
      > I would be more than happy to provide this information (as well as
      > any other things that Retrosheet has you are interested in (perhaps
      > pitcher doubles, triples allowed, stolen bases and caught stealing?
      > catcher wild pitches? batting reached on catcher interference?). I
      > would provide something like:
      >
      > id,year,team,stint,stat1,stat2,....
      >
      > The IDs and team would be in Retrosheet format, but if someone is
      > willing to both identify the data you want and work to incorporate
      > what I provide into your existing tables, please let me know.
      >
      > Tom Ruane

      Thank you Tom. We will certainly take you up on the offer.

      Sincerely,
      Sean Forman

      Baseball Stats! http://www.Baseball-Reference.com/
      Baseball Analysis! http://www.BaseballPrimer.com/
    • tjruane
      ... Well, the updates to the web-site have now been released. Sean, do you want to send me a list of what you want or should there be some discussion on the
      Message 2 of 19 , Apr 5, 2004
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        A while back, I wrote:

        > I'm too busy working on the next release of the Retrosheet
        > web-site, transaction data and player data-base right now, but
        > in a month or so I would be more than happy to provide this
        > information (as well as any other things that Retrosheet has
        > you are interested in (perhaps pitcher doubles, triples allowed,
        > stolen bases and caught stealing? catcher wild pitches? batting
        > reached on catcher interference?). I would provide something
        > like:
        >
        > id,year,team,stint,stat1,stat2,....
        >
        > The IDs and team would be in Retrosheet format, but if someone
        > is willing to both identify the data you want and work to
        > incorporate what I provide into your existing tables, please let
        > me know.

        And Sean Forman replied:

        > Thank you Tom. We will certainly take you up on the offer.

        Well, the updates to the web-site have now been released. Sean,
        do you want to send me a list of what you want or should there be
        some discussion on the list first?

        Tom Ruane
      • tangotiger
        ... I won t speak for Sean, but this message contains the most wanted missing data (as of Jan, 2004):
        Message 3 of 19 , Apr 5, 2004
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          --- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com, "tjruane" <truane@v...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Well, the updates to the web-site have now been released. Sean,
          > do you want to send me a list of what you want or should there be
          > some discussion on the list first?
          >
          > Tom Ruane

          I won't speak for Sean, but this message contains the "most wanted"
          missing data (as of Jan, 2004):

          http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/baseball-databank/message/1929

          As well, RBOE (reached base on error) should also be included (for
          hitters and pitchers).

          I'm not sure which of the holes you can fill.

          I'll try to update the list tomorrow to make it cleaner.

          Tom
        • tangotiger
          The holes in our data is as follows. I suggest that this post gets updated going forward. Hitting: SB - 1876 to 1885 CS - 1876 to 1919 IBB - 1871 to 1954
          Message 4 of 19 , Apr 6, 2004
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            The "holes" in our data is as follows. I suggest that this post gets
            updated going forward.

            Hitting:
            SB - 1876 to 1885
            CS - 1876 to 1919
            IBB - 1871 to 1954
            HBP - 1871 to 1883
            GIDP - 1871 to 1932
            RBOE - all years
            SH - 1871 to 1894
            SF - 1871 to 1953
            (though I realize that the way the SH and SF rules and recording
            practices were at the time that it might not even be possible to
            separate things)

            Pitching:
            for any years where it was recorded:
            pitch counts, balls, strikes

            for 1871 to 1875:
            IBB, WP, HBP, BK, BFP, GF, R

            for all years:
            RBOE, 2B, 3B, SB, CS, CI, Pickoffs

            IBB - through to 1954
            HBP - maybe through 1883 (DB shows zero where it should probably be
            null from 1876-1883)
            BK - maybe through 1880 (DB shows zero where it may or may not be
            null from 1876-1880)


            Fielding:
            for any years where it was recorded:
            "balls in zone"

            for 1871 to 1875 (for catchers):
            PB

            for all years (for catchers):
            SB, CS, CI, Pickoffs

            for all years through 1999 (but not for pitchers):
            GS, InnOuts

            for all years through 1995:
            Splitting OF data into LF/CF/RF

            ***

            Note: design change needs to occur to show games played by OF, as
            well as by any position. This has been discussed with the
            APPEARANCES table.
          • Sean Forman
            Tom, Thank you again for the offer. I think we should start out small and get things tied together. In fielding, we could use Catcher SB, CS, and Catcher
            Message 5 of 19 , Apr 8, 2004
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              Tom,

              Thank you again for the offer. I think we should start out small and
              get things tied together.

              In fielding, we could use

              Catcher SB, CS, and Catcher interference.

              Pickoffs for pitchers

              Games started and innings played by position.

              We could also use separate LF/CF/RF data for any years you can provide it.

              A listing of all triple plays you have

              In pitching,
              RBOE, 2B, 3B, SB, CS, CI, Pickoffs (as Tom listed)

              I might also like to see reliever pitching as well, but that isn't a
              high priority.

              In Batting, RBOE seems like the only other "major" need.


              That is probably sufficient for now.

              I think something using your ids and comma-delimited should be fine.

              Thank you for the help.

              ON A GENERAL NOTE

              We are probably due for a state of the BDB note at some point. I'm
              going to be leaving Baseball Primer in the near future, so I hope I'll
              have more development time for the BDB.

              One thing that I've known for years is that we need to decentralize and
              create a means by which no one person is a bottleneck, but we still need
              proper review and some mechanism for considering and incorporating changes.

              --
              Sincerely,
              Sean Forman

              Baseball Stats! http://www.Baseball-Reference.com/
              Baseball Analysis! http://www.BaseballPrimer.com/
            • tangotiger
              This list has been appended with Sean s note regarding breaking down start/relief appearances, which is really a great suggestion. Tom *** The holes in our
              Message 6 of 19 , Apr 8, 2004
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                This list has been appended with Sean's note regarding breaking down
                start/relief appearances, which is really a great suggestion.

                Tom

                ***

                The "holes" in our data is as follows. I suggest that this post gets
                updated going forward.

                Hitting:
                SB - 1876 to 1885
                CS - 1876 to 1919
                IBB - 1871 to 1954
                HBP - 1871 to 1883
                GIDP - 1871 to 1932
                RBOE - all years
                SH - 1871 to 1894
                SF - 1871 to 1953
                (though I realize that the way the SH and SF rules and recording
                practices were at the time that it might not even be possible to
                separate things)

                Pitching:
                for any years where it was recorded:
                pitch counts, balls, strikes

                for 1871 to 1875:
                IBB, WP, HBP, BK, BFP, GF, R

                for all years:
                RBOE, 2B, 3B, SB, CS, CI, Pickoffs

                IBB - through to 1954
                HBP - maybe through 1883 (DB shows zero where it should probably be
                null from 1876-1883)
                BK - maybe through 1880 (DB shows zero where it may or may not be
                null from 1876-1880)

                for all years:
                breakdown between start and relief appearances

                Fielding:
                for any years where it was recorded:
                "balls in zone"

                for 1871 to 1875 (for catchers):
                PB

                for all years (for catchers):
                SB, CS, CI, Pickoffs

                for all years through 1999 (but not for pitchers):
                GS, InnOuts

                for all years through 1995:
                Splitting OF data into LF/CF/RF

                ***

                Note: design change needs to occur to show games played by OF, as
                well as by any position. This has been discussed with the
                APPEARANCES table.
              • tjruane
                ... What about SB and CS for pitchers? By the way, something I keep track on Retrosheet is WP for catchers and passed balls for pitchers. ... What s the rule
                Message 7 of 19 , Apr 8, 2004
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                  Sean Forman wrote:

                  > In fielding, we could use
                  >
                  > Catcher SB, CS, and Catcher interference.
                  >
                  > Pickoffs for pitchers

                  What about SB and CS for pitchers?

                  By the way, something I keep track on Retrosheet is WP for
                  catchers and passed balls for pitchers.

                  > Games started and innings played by position.

                  What's the rule on visiting starters who never take the field
                  in the bottom of the 1st? Wasn't a "Mark McGuire" rule put into
                  effect at some point that wouldn't give a player like that
                  credit for a defensive game played? Should I count only those
                  players on the field at the start of the bottom of the 1st as
                  starters for the visitors? Or should I treat these differently
                  prior to some date?

                  > We could also use separate LF/CF/RF data for any years you can
                  > provide it.

                  I thought you already had this data. As a matter of fact,
                  my recollection is that I got much of this data from you.

                  > A listing of all triple plays you have

                  You just want a listing? Or do you want triples plays included
                  in each players defensive stats?

                  > In pitching,
                  > RBOE, 2B, 3B, SB, CS, CI, Pickoffs (as Tom listed)

                  Oh, you are including SB and CS under pitching (rather than
                  defensive stats). Do you really want it here? And do you
                  really want pickoffs in two places (since it's listed above
                  under defensive stats). In my DB, I treat SB, CS and pickoffs
                  as defensive stats, not pitching stats.

                  > I might also like to see reliever pitching as well, but that
                  > isn't a high priority.

                  What do you mean here? Do you want to see relief innings,
                  runs and earned runs, or do you want complete relief stats
                  (hits, walks, Ks, WP, and so on)?

                  Tom Ruane
                • tangotiger
                  ... Tom, you and I are among the handfuls (I think) that looks at this. If I was the Dr Evil of baseball, I would certainly add it. Not that we re going to do
                  Message 8 of 19 , Apr 9, 2004
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                    --- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com, "tjruane" <truane@v...>
                    wrote:
                    > By the way, something I keep track on Retrosheet is WP for
                    > catchers and passed balls for pitchers.

                    Tom, you and I are among the handfuls (I think) that looks at this.
                    If I was the Dr Evil of baseball, I would certainly add it.

                    Not that we're going to do it any time soon (or ever), but I'll just
                    put it out there for people to think about, and maybe it'll get them
                    thinking in different ways: I would split up fielding by the status
                    of the ball in play (BIP). In an on-going PA, you have SB, CS (with
                    runner out), CS (with runner safe), Pickoffs by pitcher or catcher
                    (same safe rules as CS), BK, WP, PB. I would like to track all that
                    separate, and for the catcher and pitcher, regardless of who gets
                    official credit. Let me see the assists and errors for the catchers
                    from this context, and the putouts for the IF here. With the BIP,
                    then you can track all the other stuff. I'd track unassisted PO
                    separate from assisted PO. And I'm just getting started!

                    Like I said, I'm not proposing this at this point, but there's alot
                    of aggregation done, when really there shouldn't be. Same thing for
                    starters/relievers as Sean mentioned. Having a "position", or role,
                    called SP and RP would suit me fine.

                    As a general rule of thumb: minimize the aggregation as much as you
                    can, while presenting the data at the team&stint/seasonal level.

                    Tom
                  • Charles Saeger
                    ... Going through old box scores, these often were recorded differently. A few other notes: * The original (1969) Baseball Encyclopedia had innings pitched and
                    Message 9 of 19 , Apr 9, 2004
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                      --- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com, "tangotiger" <tmasc@y...>
                      wrote:

                      > SH - 1871 to 1894
                      > SF - 1871 to 1953
                      > (though I realize that the way the SH and SF rules and recording
                      > practices were at the time that it might not even be possible to
                      > separate things)

                      Going through old box scores, these often were recorded differently.

                      A few other notes:

                      * The original (1969) Baseball Encyclopedia had innings pitched and
                      ERA for all pitchers in relief, if you can find a copy.

                      * The Chicago Tribune had safe on error as part of its box scores in
                      the 1890s.
                    • Paul Wendt
                      ... handsful, I think ... I agree. If the NA Statistics Project were rerun today, it would be worthwhile to compile these disaggregated statistics. As it is,
                      Message 10 of 19 , Apr 9, 2004
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                        9 Apr 2004, tangotiger replied to Tom R:

                        > > By the way, something I keep track on Retrosheet is WP for
                        > > catchers and passed balls for pitchers.
                        >
                        > Tom, you and I are among the handfuls (I think)

                        handsful, I think

                        > Not that we're going to do it any time soon (or ever), but I'll just
                        > put it out there for people to think about, and maybe it'll get them
                        > thinking in different ways: I would split up fielding by the status of
                        > the ball in play (BIP). In an on-going PA, you have SB, CS (with
                        > runner out), CS (with runner safe), Pickoffs by pitcher or catcher
                        > (same safe rules as CS), BK, WP, PB. I would like to track all that
                        > separate, and for the catcher and pitcher, regardless of who gets
                        > official credit. Let me see the assists and errors for the catchers
                        > from this context, and the putouts [and errors] for the IF here.

                        I agree.

                        If the NA Statistics Project were rerun today, it would be worthwhile to
                        compile these disaggregated statistics. As it is, some of the basic data
                        for their compilation by familiar tools will become available after
                        retroscoring those seasons (1871-1875).
                        The data will never be complete. We know that PB was not reported in some
                        games (by some scorers? maybe Bob Tiemann knows that).

                        P/\/ \/\/t
                        Paul Wendt, Watertown MA, USA <pgw@...>
                      • tangotiger
                        ... Paul: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=handfuls In any case, I wasn t pondering the spelling of the word, but rather the idea that very few people
                        Message 11 of 19 , Apr 9, 2004
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                          --- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wendt <pgw@w...> wrote:
                          > 9 Apr 2004, tangotiger replied to Tom R:
                          >
                          > > > By the way, something I keep track on Retrosheet is WP for
                          > > > catchers and passed balls for pitchers.
                          > >
                          > > Tom, you and I are among the handfuls (I think)
                          >
                          > handsful, I think
                          >

                          Paul: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=handfuls

                          In any case, I wasn't pondering the spelling of the word, but rather
                          the idea that very few people would consider tallying the PB and WP
                          records for both the pitcher and catcher.

                          Tom
                        • Sean Forman
                          ... Absolutely. All four would be great. ... I m not sure which is better or if a standard policy has been applied to the data in the BDB. ... I m referring
                          Message 12 of 19 , Apr 12, 2004
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                            tjruane wrote:
                            > Sean Forman wrote:
                            >
                            > > In fielding, we could use
                            > >
                            > > Catcher SB, CS, and Catcher interference.
                            > >
                            > > Pickoffs for pitchers
                            >
                            > What about SB and CS for pitchers?

                            > By the way, something I keep track on Retrosheet is WP for
                            > catchers and passed balls for pitchers.

                            Absolutely. All four would be great.


                            > > Games started and innings played by position.
                            >
                            > What's the rule on visiting starters who never take the field
                            > in the bottom of the 1st? Wasn't a "Mark McGuire" rule put into
                            > effect at some point that wouldn't give a player like that
                            > credit for a defensive game played? Should I count only those
                            > players on the field at the start of the bottom of the 1st as
                            > starters for the visitors? Or should I treat these differently
                            > prior to some date?


                            I'm not sure which is better or if a standard policy has been applied to
                            the data in the BDB.


                            > > We could also use separate LF/CF/RF data for any years you can
                            > > provide it.
                            >
                            > I thought you already had this data. As a matter of fact,
                            > my recollection is that I got much of this data from you.


                            I'm referring to the errors, PO, A, Innings data for pre-2000 years. I
                            think you did get the games played for pre-retro years from me.


                            > > A listing of all triple plays you have
                            >
                            > You just want a listing? Or do you want triples plays included
                            > in each players defensive stats?


                            Well, if you could just provide a list of year, team, playerID, TP, then
                            we ought to be able to fold that into the fielding table. I also think
                            a listing of the triple plays in some way would be fun to have in the
                            DB. Date, teams, situation, scoring, player's involved.


                            > > In pitching,
                            > > RBOE, 2B, 3B, SB, CS, CI, Pickoffs (as Tom listed)
                            >
                            > Oh, you are including SB and CS under pitching (rather than
                            > defensive stats). Do you really want it here? And do you
                            > really want pickoffs in two places (since it's listed above
                            > under defensive stats). In my DB, I treat SB, CS and pickoffs
                            > as defensive stats, not pitching stats.


                            I think it probably makes more sense under fielding, but it might make
                            the most sense to add it as a separate table.


                            > > I might also like to see reliever pitching as well, but that
                            > > isn't a high priority.
                            >
                            > What do you mean here? Do you want to see relief innings,
                            > runs and earned runs, or do you want complete relief stats
                            > (hits, walks, Ks, WP, and so on)?

                            > Tom Ruane

                            I was thinking complete, but I didn't want to be too greedy.


                            Sincerely,
                            Sean Forman

                            Baseball Stats! http://www.Baseball-Reference.com/
                            Baseball Analysis! http://www.BaseballPrimer.com/
                          • KJOK
                            Tom R: Also, batting and pitching data by BALLPARK by year, broken down by home team and away team, and by LH and RH hitters, would be awsome. I already have
                            Message 13 of 19 , Apr 15, 2004
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                              Tom R:

                              Also, batting and pitching data by BALLPARK by year, broken down by
                              home team and away team, and by LH and RH hitters, would be awsome.
                              I already have this data for most "old" retrosheet years, but with
                              the demise of A.S.S. I don't have it for 2003 or for the recently
                              released Retrosheet seasons.

                              THANKS,
                              Kevin

                              --- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com, Sean Forman <sean-
                              forman@b...> wrote:
                              > tjruane wrote:
                              > > Sean Forman wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > In fielding, we could use
                              > > >
                              > > > Catcher SB, CS, and Catcher interference.
                              > > >
                              > > > Pickoffs for pitchers
                              > >
                              > > What about SB and CS for pitchers?
                              >
                              > > By the way, something I keep track on Retrosheet is WP for
                              > > catchers and passed balls for pitchers.
                              >
                              > Absolutely. All four would be great.
                              >
                              >
                              > > > Games started and innings played by position.
                              > >
                              > > What's the rule on visiting starters who never take the field
                              > > in the bottom of the 1st? Wasn't a "Mark McGuire" rule put into
                              > > effect at some point that wouldn't give a player like that
                              > > credit for a defensive game played? Should I count only those
                              > > players on the field at the start of the bottom of the 1st as
                              > > starters for the visitors? Or should I treat these differently
                              > > prior to some date?
                              >
                              >
                              > I'm not sure which is better or if a standard policy has been
                              applied to
                              > the data in the BDB.
                              >
                              >
                              > > > We could also use separate LF/CF/RF data for any years you can
                              > > > provide it.
                              > >
                              > > I thought you already had this data. As a matter of fact,
                              > > my recollection is that I got much of this data from you.
                              >
                              >
                              > I'm referring to the errors, PO, A, Innings data for pre-2000
                              years. I
                              > think you did get the games played for pre-retro years from me.
                              >
                              >
                              > > > A listing of all triple plays you have
                              > >
                              > > You just want a listing? Or do you want triples plays included
                              > > in each players defensive stats?
                              >
                              >
                              > Well, if you could just provide a list of year, team, playerID, TP,
                              then
                              > we ought to be able to fold that into the fielding table. I also
                              think
                              > a listing of the triple plays in some way would be fun to have in
                              the
                              > DB. Date, teams, situation, scoring, player's involved.
                              >
                              >
                              > > > In pitching,
                              > > > RBOE, 2B, 3B, SB, CS, CI, Pickoffs (as Tom listed)
                              > >
                              > > Oh, you are including SB and CS under pitching (rather than
                              > > defensive stats). Do you really want it here? And do you
                              > > really want pickoffs in two places (since it's listed above
                              > > under defensive stats). In my DB, I treat SB, CS and pickoffs
                              > > as defensive stats, not pitching stats.
                              >
                              >
                              > I think it probably makes more sense under fielding, but it might
                              make
                              > the most sense to add it as a separate table.
                              >
                              >
                              > > > I might also like to see reliever pitching as well, but that
                              > > > isn't a high priority.
                              > >
                              > > What do you mean here? Do you want to see relief innings,
                              > > runs and earned runs, or do you want complete relief stats
                              > > (hits, walks, Ks, WP, and so on)?
                              >
                              > > Tom Ruane
                              >
                              > I was thinking complete, but I didn't want to be too greedy.
                              >
                              >
                              > Sincerely,
                              > Sean Forman
                              >
                              > Baseball Stats! http://www.Baseball-Reference.com/
                              > Baseball Analysis! http://www.BaseballPrimer.com/
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