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Holes in the Historical Data

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  • Jeff Burk
    It appears that most of the holes in the data are for statistics that were not kept at the time and have never been reconstructed. Taking a look at the
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 16, 2003
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      It appears that most of the "holes" in the data are for statistics that were not kept at
      the time and have never been reconstructed. Taking a look at the batting data as it
      stands today, the data appears to include all available years for the following
      categories:

      AB, H, 2B, 3B, HR, R, RBI, BB, IBB, HBP, SO, SH, SF, SB, CS, GDP

      For pitching data, including what was uploaded on June 30, the data appears to
      include all available years for the following categories:

      G, W, L, GS, CG, ShO, Sv, GF, IP, BFP, R, ER, H, HR, BB, IBB, HB, SO, WP, Bk

      Perhaps the efforts of Retrosheet will eventually fill in many of these gaps, but some
      of it simply does not exist right now.

      The only two long-standing "official statistics," i.e., the statistics that are known to
      exist but are not in the database, are SH and SF allowed by pitchers.

      By the way, assuming the BFP, BB, and HB data are accurate, and SH and SF are
      eventually added, there is no longer reason to include BAOpp in the database. This is
      redundant, since it can be figured using H/(BFP-BB-HB-SH-SF). Nor is ERA now
      needed since the data now includes IP and ER.

      The fielding data was updated on June 27 with PB. I believe this was the last long-
      standing "official statistic" not included in the fielding data.

      So what we are really after now is stuff that has only been kept in the last 25 years or
      so or is being reconstructed by Retrosheet. Including what Tom listed, I would be
      interested in gathering as much of the following as possible:

      Batting: Pitches Seen, Groundballs, Flyballs

      Pitching: Save Opportunities, Holds, Inherited Runners, Inherited Runners Scored,
      Doubles Allowed, Triples Allowed, RBI Allowed, Stolen Bases Allowed, Caught Stealing
      Allowed, GDP Induced, Pickoffs, Pitches Thrown, Groundballs, Flyballs

      Fielding: Games Started, Innings Played, Triple Plays, Zone Chances, Zone Outs,
      Stolen Bases Allowed by Catchers, Caught Stealing Allowed by Catchers, Pickoffs by
      Catchers

      I have some of this from about 1989 to 1998, although it is not broken down by stint
      and, frankly, I'm not sure how such a breakdown could be obtained. I will rummage
      around in my harddrive and see if I can find this data and get it in some useful form.

      Also, I believe the LF/CF/RF data is going to be similarly limited. It's either going to
      be from the last 25 years or so or from some seasons in the 19th century when
      LF/CF/RF data was separately kept.

      Finally, home and road home run data is available for all seasons. Is the Tattersall log
      available somewhere that might make it possible for us to integrate this data into the
      database? I am not suggesting we try to create an entire separate situational database
      with home/road breakdowns, but the home run data might be interesting and is
      known to be available for all seasons.

      I'd be interested in working with folks to make these additions and improvements to
      the batting, pitching, and fielding databases.

      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > The "holes" in our data is as follows:
      > >
      > > Hitting:
      > > SB - 1876 to 1885
      > > CS - 1876 to 1919
      > > IBB - 1871 to 1954
      > > HBP - 1871 to 1883
      > > GIDP - 1871 to 1932
      > > SH - 1871 to 1894
      > > SF - 1871 to 1953
      > > (though I realize that the way the SH and SF rules
      > > and
      > > recording practices were at the time that it might
      > > not
      > > even be possible to separate things)
      > >
      > > Pitching:
      > > for any years where it was recorded:
      > > pitch counts, balls, strikes
      > >
      > > for all years, except 1972-1992 and 1999-2002
      > > WP, PB, BK, Pickoffs, SB, CS, HBP, IBB
      > >
      > > Fielding:
      > > for any years where it was recorded:
      > > "balls in zone"
      > >
      > > for all years, except 1972-1992 and 1999-2002
      > > - Innings Played by Position
      > > - Games played for LF,CF,RF as individual position
      > > - WP, PB, BK, Pickoffs, SB, CS for catchers
      > >
      > > Any of the voids that can be filled would be most
      > > appreciated. I understand if you will only have
      > > time
      > > to look into this during a lull in the off-season.
      > >
      > > Thanks, Tom
      > >
      >
      >
      > __________________________________
      > Do you Yahoo!?
      > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
      > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
    • KJOK
      I ll address this point quickly - the data is in the ballparks database already. The question for Sean & Sean is whether any of the tables from the
      Message 2 of 12 , Aug 16, 2003
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        I'll address this point quickly - the data is in the "ballparks"
        database already. The question for Sean & Sean is whether any of the
        tables from the ballparks database are going to be incorporated into
        the main BDB in the next release. If so, we can also modify the
        teams database to have Park ID instead of the descriptive park names.

        THANKS,
        Kevin

        --- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Burk"
        <arkyvaughan@b...> wrote:
        ...
        > Finally, home and road home run data is available for all seasons.
        Is the Tattersall log
        > available somewhere that might make it possible for us to integrate
        this data into the
        > database? I am not suggesting we try to create an entire separate
        situational database
        > with home/road breakdowns, but the home run data might be
        interesting and is
        > known to be available for all seasons.
        >
      • Jeff Burk
        I definitely think the park data should be included in the next release. But I was wondering about home run home/road splits for individual players.
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 16, 2003
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          I definitely think the park data should be included in the next release. But I was
          wondering about home run home/road splits for individual players.

          --- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com, "KJOK" <kjokbaseball@y...> wrote:
          > I'll address this point quickly - the data is in the "ballparks"
          > database already. The question for Sean & Sean is whether any of the
          > tables from the ballparks database are going to be incorporated into
          > the main BDB in the next release. If so, we can also modify the
          > teams database to have Park ID instead of the descriptive park names.
          >
          > THANKS,
          > Kevin
          >
          > --- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Burk"
          > <arkyvaughan@b...> wrote:
          > ...
          > > Finally, home and road home run data is available for all seasons.
          > Is the Tattersall log
          > > available somewhere that might make it possible for us to integrate
          > this data into the
          > > database? I am not suggesting we try to create an entire separate
          > situational database
          > > with home/road breakdowns, but the home run data might be
          > interesting and is
          > > known to be available for all seasons.
          > >
        • KJOK
          Oh, that s a different animal. The Home Run log has been promised to appear on the SABR member website for awhile, but no sighting yet. In the meantime, we do
          Message 4 of 12 , Aug 16, 2003
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            Oh, that's a different animal. The Home Run log has been promised to
            appear on the SABR member website for awhile, but no sighting yet.

            In the meantime, we do have the retrosheet data from which we could
            create home and away batting tables, but only for the "retrosheet"
            years, and as Tango said, we need the xref table to be complete and
            correct before tables keyed by retrosheet ID's are added in.

            THANKS,
            Kevin

            --- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Burk"
            <arkyvaughan@b...> wrote:
            > I definitely think the park data should be included in the next
            release. But I was
            > wondering about home run home/road splits for individual players.
          • rbhs1980
            I m new to the Group, but I have a 1901 Reach baseball guide that shows Stolen Bases that the Catchers allowed for 1900. The table breaks it down by Games,
            Message 5 of 12 , Aug 17, 2003
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              I'm new to the Group, but I have a 1901 Reach baseball guide that
              shows Stolen Bases that the Catchers allowed for 1900. The table
              breaks it down by Games, Stolen bases by opponents, and Average by
              Game. If needed I can send the information to who is heading this up.

              Scott Berg


              --- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Burk"
              <arkyvaughan@b...> wrote:
              > It appears that most of the "holes" in the data are for statistics
              that were not kept at
              > the time and have never been reconstructed. Taking a look at the
              batting data as it
              > stands today, the data appears to include all available years for
              the following
              > categories:
              >
              > AB, H, 2B, 3B, HR, R, RBI, BB, IBB, HBP, SO, SH, SF, SB, CS, GDP
              >
              > For pitching data, including what was uploaded on June 30, the
              data appears to
              > include all available years for the following categories:
              >
              > G, W, L, GS, CG, ShO, Sv, GF, IP, BFP, R, ER, H, HR, BB, IBB, HB,
              SO, WP, Bk
              >
              > Perhaps the efforts of Retrosheet will eventually fill in many of
              these gaps, but some
              > of it simply does not exist right now.
              >
              > The only two long-standing "official statistics," i.e., the
              statistics that are known to
              > exist but are not in the database, are SH and SF allowed by
              pitchers.
              >
              > By the way, assuming the BFP, BB, and HB data are accurate, and SH
              and SF are
              > eventually added, there is no longer reason to include BAOpp in
              the database. This is
              > redundant, since it can be figured using H/(BFP-BB-HB-SH-SF). Nor
              is ERA now
              > needed since the data now includes IP and ER.
              >
              > The fielding data was updated on June 27 with PB. I believe this
              was the last long-
              > standing "official statistic" not included in the fielding data.
              >
              > So what we are really after now is stuff that has only been kept
              in the last 25 years or
              > so or is being reconstructed by Retrosheet. Including what Tom
              listed, I would be
              > interested in gathering as much of the following as possible:
              >
              > Batting: Pitches Seen, Groundballs, Flyballs
              >
              > Pitching: Save Opportunities, Holds, Inherited Runners, Inherited
              Runners Scored,
              > Doubles Allowed, Triples Allowed, RBI Allowed, Stolen Bases
              Allowed, Caught Stealing
              > Allowed, GDP Induced, Pickoffs, Pitches Thrown, Groundballs,
              Flyballs
              >
              > Fielding: Games Started, Innings Played, Triple Plays, Zone
              Chances, Zone Outs,
              > Stolen Bases Allowed by Catchers, Caught Stealing Allowed by
              Catchers, Pickoffs by
              > Catchers
              >
              > I have some of this from about 1989 to 1998, although it is not
              broken down by stint
              > and, frankly, I'm not sure how such a breakdown could be obtained.
              I will rummage
              > around in my harddrive and see if I can find this data and get it
              in some useful form.
              >
              > Also, I believe the LF/CF/RF data is going to be similarly
              limited. It's either going to
              > be from the last 25 years or so or from some seasons in the 19th
              century when
              > LF/CF/RF data was separately kept.
              >
              > Finally, home and road home run data is available for all seasons.
              Is the Tattersall log
              > available somewhere that might make it possible for us to
              integrate this data into the
              > database? I am not suggesting we try to create an entire separate
              situational database
              > with home/road breakdowns, but the home run data might be
              interesting and is
              > known to be available for all seasons.
              >
              > I'd be interested in working with folks to make these additions
              and improvements to
              > the batting, pitching, and fielding databases.
              >
              > > > -----Original Message-----
              > > > The "holes" in our data is as follows:
              > > >
              > > > Hitting:
              > > > SB - 1876 to 1885
              > > > CS - 1876 to 1919
              > > > IBB - 1871 to 1954
              > > > HBP - 1871 to 1883
              > > > GIDP - 1871 to 1932
              > > > SH - 1871 to 1894
              > > > SF - 1871 to 1953
              > > > (though I realize that the way the SH and SF rules
              > > > and
              > > > recording practices were at the time that it might
              > > > not
              > > > even be possible to separate things)
              > > >
              > > > Pitching:
              > > > for any years where it was recorded:
              > > > pitch counts, balls, strikes
              > > >
              > > > for all years, except 1972-1992 and 1999-2002
              > > > WP, PB, BK, Pickoffs, SB, CS, HBP, IBB
              > > >
              > > > Fielding:
              > > > for any years where it was recorded:
              > > > "balls in zone"
              > > >
              > > > for all years, except 1972-1992 and 1999-2002
              > > > - Innings Played by Position
              > > > - Games played for LF,CF,RF as individual position
              > > > - WP, PB, BK, Pickoffs, SB, CS for catchers
              > > >
              > > > Any of the voids that can be filled would be most
              > > > appreciated. I understand if you will only have
              > > > time
              > > > to look into this during a lull in the off-season.
              > > >
              > > > Thanks, Tom
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > > __________________________________
              > > Do you Yahoo!?
              > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
              > > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
            • tangotiger
              Just to keep you up-to-date, MLB.com has now included our request on their priority list: This is on our winter to-do list but I can t give you an exact
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 24, 2003
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                Just to keep you up-to-date, MLB.com has now included our request on
                their priority list:

                "This is on our winter to-do list but I can't give you an exact
                timeframe as of yet. We have a few other high-priority projects to
                address but I'll provide what we can, when we can. Thanks for your
                patience!"


                Tom


                --- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com, "tmasc@y..." <tmasc@y...>
                wrote:
                > Kevin,
                >
                > I'm in actual shock! I've been brought up by the Bill
                > James view that Elias would try to squeeze every
                > dollar out of every stat it would give the public, and
                > I'm of the view now that STATS has supplanted Elias on
                > that front. STATS did recently donate their event
                > files for 1991-1992 to Retrosheet, which was pretty
                > nice of them (though really anything more than 5 years
                > old would be of value only to research analysts).
                >
                > MLB.com might be a new animal. I've dealt with the
                > NHL in the 80s, and they were EXTREMELY forthcoming
                > with all of their detailed plus/minus data (though
                > back then it was in paper form). Maybe MLB.com has
                > seen the light and doing goodwill might actually be
                > good business overall, a good investment.
                >
                > Anyway, we'll see how things shake out, though it does
                > look somewhat promising.
                >
                > Tom
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- KJOK <kjokbaseball@y...> wrote:
                > > This sounds great, and I must admit I'm a little bit
                > > surprised MLB is
                > > being so cooperative!!
                > >
                > > THANKS,
                > > KJOK
                > >
                > > --- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com,
                > > "tmasc@y..." <tmasc@y...>
                > > wrote:
                > > > More positive responses from MLB.com
                > > >
                > > > Tom
                > > >
                > > > > Hi Tom, thanks for the list. We can definitely
                > > > > provide some of this data and
                > > > > I appreciate your willingness to wait until the
                > > > > offseason if necessary...
                > > > > that will make it much easier for us to
                > > accommodate.
                > > > > I'll let you know what
                > > > > we can provide, and when.
                > > > >
                > > > > Regards,
                > > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > > The "holes" in our data is as follows:
                > > > >
                > > > > Hitting:
                > > > > SB - 1876 to 1885
                > > > > CS - 1876 to 1919
                > > > > IBB - 1871 to 1954
                > > > > HBP - 1871 to 1883
                > > > > GIDP - 1871 to 1932
                > > > > SH - 1871 to 1894
                > > > > SF - 1871 to 1953
                > > > > (though I realize that the way the SH and SF
                > > rules
                > > > > and
                > > > > recording practices were at the time that it
                > > might
                > > > > not
                > > > > even be possible to separate things)
                > > > >
                > > > > Pitching:
                > > > > for any years where it was recorded:
                > > > > pitch counts, balls, strikes
                > > > >
                > > > > for all years, except 1972-1992 and 1999-2002
                > > > > WP, PB, BK, Pickoffs, SB, CS, HBP, IBB
                > > > >
                > > > > Fielding:
                > > > > for any years where it was recorded:
                > > > > "balls in zone"
                > > > >
                > > > > for all years, except 1972-1992 and 1999-2002
                > > > > - Innings Played by Position
                > > > > - Games played for LF,CF,RF as individual
                > > position
                > > > > - WP, PB, BK, Pickoffs, SB, CS for catchers
                > > > >
                > > > > Any of the voids that can be filled would be
                > > most
                > > > > appreciated. I understand if you will only have
                > > > > time
                > > > > to look into this during a lull in the
                > > off-season.
                > > > >
                > > > > Thanks, Tom
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > __________________________________
                > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                > > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site
                > > design software
                > > > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
                > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                > >
                > > http://www.baseball-databank.org/
                > >
                > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                > >
                > >
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                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > __________________________________
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                > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
                > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
              • tangotiger
                I would say that if anyone can provide any of the holes in the data, it would be much appreciated. (see list below) For some reason, I neglected to include
                Message 7 of 12 , Jan 4, 2004
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                  I would say that if anyone can provide any of the "holes" in the
                  data, it would be much appreciated. (see list below)

                  For some reason, I neglected to include those 2b/3b and a few other
                  categories for pitchers.

                  I'm still waiting for a response from mlb.com for their data.

                  Thanksm Tom


                  --- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com, "tmasc@y..." <tmasc@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > More positive responses from MLB.com
                  >
                  > Tom
                  >
                  > > Hi Tom, thanks for the list. We can definitely
                  > > provide some of this data and
                  > > I appreciate your willingness to wait until the
                  > > offseason if necessary...
                  > > that will make it much easier for us to accommodate.
                  > > I'll let you know what
                  > > we can provide, and when.
                  > >
                  > > Regards,
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > The "holes" in our data is as follows:
                  > >
                  > > Hitting:
                  > > SB - 1876 to 1885
                  > > CS - 1876 to 1919
                  > > IBB - 1871 to 1954
                  > > HBP - 1871 to 1883
                  > > GIDP - 1871 to 1932
                  > > SH - 1871 to 1894
                  > > SF - 1871 to 1953
                  > > (though I realize that the way the SH and SF rules
                  > > and
                  > > recording practices were at the time that it might
                  > > not
                  > > even be possible to separate things)
                  > >
                  > > Pitching:
                  > > for any years where it was recorded:
                  > > pitch counts, balls, strikes
                  > >
                  > > for all years, except 1972-1992 and 1999-2002
                  > > WP, PB, BK, Pickoffs, SB, CS, HBP, IBB
                  > >
                  > > Fielding:
                  > > for any years where it was recorded:
                  > > "balls in zone"
                  > >
                  > > for all years, except 1972-1992 and 1999-2002
                  > > - Innings Played by Position
                  > > - Games played for LF,CF,RF as individual position
                  > > - WP, PB, BK, Pickoffs, SB, CS for catchers
                  > >
                  > > Any of the voids that can be filled would be most
                  > > appreciated. I understand if you will only have
                  > > time
                  > > to look into this during a lull in the off-season.
                  > >
                  > > Thanks, Tom
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > __________________________________
                  > Do you Yahoo!?
                  > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
                  > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
                • KJOK
                  Soooo, did anything ever come out of this? Or did mlb.com change their minds? THANKS, KJOK ... on ... your ...
                  Message 8 of 12 , Oct 12, 2006
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                    Soooo, did anything ever come out of this? Or did mlb.com change
                    their minds?

                    THANKS,
                    KJOK

                    --- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com, "tangotiger" <tmasc@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Just to keep you up-to-date, MLB.com has now included our request
                    on
                    > their priority list:
                    >
                    > "This is on our winter to-do list but I can't give you an exact
                    > timeframe as of yet. We have a few other high-priority projects to
                    > address but I'll provide what we can, when we can. Thanks for
                    your
                    > patience!"
                    >
                    >
                    > Tom
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com, "tmasc@y..."
                    <tmasc@y...>
                    > wrote:
                    > > Kevin,
                    > >
                    > > I'm in actual shock! I've been brought up by the Bill
                    > > James view that Elias would try to squeeze every
                    > > dollar out of every stat it would give the public, and
                    > > I'm of the view now that STATS has supplanted Elias on
                    > > that front. STATS did recently donate their event
                    > > files for 1991-1992 to Retrosheet, which was pretty
                    > > nice of them (though really anything more than 5 years
                    > > old would be of value only to research analysts).
                    > >
                    > > MLB.com might be a new animal. I've dealt with the
                    > > NHL in the 80s, and they were EXTREMELY forthcoming
                    > > with all of their detailed plus/minus data (though
                    > > back then it was in paper form). Maybe MLB.com has
                    > > seen the light and doing goodwill might actually be
                    > > good business overall, a good investment.
                    > >
                    > > Anyway, we'll see how things shake out, though it does
                    > > look somewhat promising.
                    > >
                    > > Tom
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- KJOK <kjokbaseball@y...> wrote:
                    > > > This sounds great, and I must admit I'm a little bit
                    > > > surprised MLB is
                    > > > being so cooperative!!
                    > > >
                    > > > THANKS,
                    > > > KJOK
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com,
                    > > > "tmasc@y..." <tmasc@y...>
                    > > > wrote:
                    > > > > More positive responses from MLB.com
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Tom
                    > > > >
                    > > > > > Hi Tom, thanks for the list. We can definitely
                    > > > > > provide some of this data and
                    > > > > > I appreciate your willingness to wait until the
                    > > > > > offseason if necessary...
                    > > > > > that will make it much easier for us to
                    > > > accommodate.
                    > > > > > I'll let you know what
                    > > > > > we can provide, and when.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Regards,
                    > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > > > > The "holes" in our data is as follows:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Hitting:
                    > > > > > SB - 1876 to 1885
                    > > > > > CS - 1876 to 1919
                    > > > > > IBB - 1871 to 1954
                    > > > > > HBP - 1871 to 1883
                    > > > > > GIDP - 1871 to 1932
                    > > > > > SH - 1871 to 1894
                    > > > > > SF - 1871 to 1953
                    > > > > > (though I realize that the way the SH and SF
                    > > > rules
                    > > > > > and
                    > > > > > recording practices were at the time that it
                    > > > might
                    > > > > > not
                    > > > > > even be possible to separate things)
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Pitching:
                    > > > > > for any years where it was recorded:
                    > > > > > pitch counts, balls, strikes
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > for all years, except 1972-1992 and 1999-2002
                    > > > > > WP, PB, BK, Pickoffs, SB, CS, HBP, IBB
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Fielding:
                    > > > > > for any years where it was recorded:
                    > > > > > "balls in zone"
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > for all years, except 1972-1992 and 1999-2002
                    > > > > > - Innings Played by Position
                    > > > > > - Games played for LF,CF,RF as individual
                    > > > position
                    > > > > > - WP, PB, BK, Pickoffs, SB, CS for catchers
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Any of the voids that can be filled would be
                    > > > most
                    > > > > > appreciated. I understand if you will only have
                    > > > > > time
                    > > > > > to look into this during a lull in the
                    > > > off-season.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Thanks, Tom
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > __________________________________
                    > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
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