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Re: Pitching Posted

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  • Charles Saeger
    ... You might be able to fill some of these (other than Runs Allowed, already there) for NA pitchers. MLB.com has the data, and has posted some of it to its
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 1, 2003
      --- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com, Derek Adair <dadair@i...>
      wrote:
      > I just posted an updated Pitching file with the following stats
      added:

      > "IBB","WP","HBP","BK","BFP","GF","R"

      You might be able to fill some of these (other than Runs Allowed,
      already there) for NA pitchers.

      MLB.com has the data, and has posted some of it to its site. It has
      team data for all teams, and has individual pitcher data for those
      pitchers who pitched for a team that survived. I played with this a
      few months ago, and one can use this to find about a third of all NA
      pitcher/seasons for Wild Pitches, Balks, and Games Finished. As best
      I can tell, there are no Batters Facing Pitcher data for the NA, all
      HBP should be 0 (the rule did not exist yet), and IBB could be safely
      assumed to be 0 (we have no such data for any pitcher before the
      1950s anyways, and the IBB was very rare in those days, I would be
      surprised were there even 10 in the entire past of the NA). I suppose
      one could estimate opponents BFP using league AB-H-SO per IP ... that
      would be the best we could do.

      And yes, I did ask MLB.com for the data many months ago, and I have
      not heard anything yet.
    • Mac
      Derek; Thanks for the revised pitching table with added data. I ve been hoping this would show up. Great job, my friend. Now if I can only get someone to
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 1, 2003
        Derek;
        Thanks for the revised pitching table with added data. I've been hoping this would show up. Great job, my friend.
        Now if I can only get someone to figure out a SIMPLE, direct way to connect batting data with the prime fielding position (in Access97), I'll be happy.
        Bruce 'Mac' MacLeod
         
      • Paul Wendt
        ... (The first six of the seven new fields are filled with Nulls for 1871-75.) ... Only one third of pitcher-seasons? Because teams that did not complete the
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 17, 2003
          On Tue, 1 Jul 2003, Charles Saeger wrote:

          > --- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com, Derek Adair <dadair@i...>
          > wrote:
          > > I just posted an updated Pitching file with the following stats
          > added:
          >
          > > "IBB","WP","HBP","BK","BFP","GF","R"
          >
          > You might be able to fill some of these (other than Runs Allowed,
          > already there) for NA pitchers.

          (The first six of the seven new fields are filled with Nulls for 1871-75.)

          > MLB.com has the data, and has posted some of it to its site. It has
          > team data for all teams, and has individual pitcher data for those
          > pitchers who pitched for a team that survived. I played with this a
          > few months ago, and one can use this to find about a third of all NA
          > pitcher/seasons for Wild Pitches, Balks, and Games Finished.

          Only one third of pitcher-seasons? Because teams that did not complete
          the season ("survive") employed so many pitchers?

          If I understand, the number of statistically complete pitcher-seasons is
          equal to the number of pitchers who appeared only for teams that survived,
          plus the number who completed every game for a team that didn't survive
          and otherwise appearedonly for teams that survived.

          I suppose that the source for MLB.com is Total Baseball (including some
          stats never published), whose source is the NA Box Scores and Statistics
          Project directed by Bob Tiemann in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

          Please provide addresses for MLB.com data: a representative pitcher with
          at least one balk whose stat line is complete; a representative team
          pitching staff whose individual pitcher stats are not published. Then
          I will consult the summary reports from the NA Project and thereby show
          what extra pitcher stats are available.

          P/\/ \/\/t
          Paul Wendt, Watertown MA, USA <pgw@...>
          Chair, 19th Century Committee, SABR
        • Charles Saeger
          ... From MLB.com, Al Spalding: http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats_historical/ mlb_individual_stats_player.jsp?playerID=122558 He has balks, wild pitches
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 17, 2003
            --- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wendt <pgw@w...> wrote:

            > Please provide addresses for MLB.com data: a representative pitcher with
            > at least one balk whose stat line is complete; a representative team
            > pitching staff whose individual pitcher stats are not published. Then
            > I will consult the summary reports from the NA Project and thereby show
            > what extra pitcher stats are available.

            From MLB.com, Al Spalding:

            http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats_historical/
            mlb_individual_stats_player.jsp?playerID=122558

            He has balks, wild pitches and games finished for all years of the NA.
          • Paul Wendt
            ... Correct. Using Al Spalding for example: individual pitching statistics included in the NA Project report and not published in TB6: GF R - TB6 gives team
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 18, 2003
              18 Jul 2003, Charles Saeger wrote:

              > --- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wendt <pgw@w...> wrote:
              >
              > > Please provide addresses for MLB.com data: a representative pitcher with
              > > at least one balk whose stat line is complete; a representative team
              > > pitching staff whose individual pitcher stats are not published. Then
              > > I will consult the summary reports from the NA Project and thereby show
              > > what extra pitcher stats are available.
              >
              > >From MLB.com, Al Spalding:
              >
              > http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats_historical/
              > mlb_individual_stats_player.jsp?playerID=122558
              >
              > He has balks, wild pitches and games finished for all years of the NA.

              Correct.

              Using Al Spalding for example:

              individual pitching statistics included in the NA Project report and not
              published in TB6:
              GF
              R - TB6 gives team and league totals only
              ER
              WP
              BK - only 5 in NA1875, listed in footnotes to team and league totals
              oAB

              individual pitching statistics included in the NA Project report and not
              published by mlb.com (internet address above):
              oAB
              oBA - "AVG" at mlb.com
              That is, opponent at bats and batting average.

              Perhaps some columns filled with dash(--) at mlb.com should be filled with
              zero(0) there or in the bbdb. Dash and zero cover three or four meanings.

              The NA Project report also includes full relief pitching statistics,
              including Saves, Modern Saves, and (modern) Blown Saves. From those
              three, "SO" (Save Opportunities at mlb.com) can be calculated on the
              modern definition or estimated on the old definition.
              Spalding 1875: 9 saves, 7 modern saves, 1 blown save.

              A curiosity: Spalding 1875 matched his full-season ERA in his relief
              appearances, to two decimal places (1.59).

              --
              By the way, mlb.com "PA" (Plate Appearances, according to the glossary) is
              equal to bases on balls for Spalding 1871-75. Evidently, PA means plate
              appearances other than at bats.
              "TPA" in the batting records is total plate appearances.

              At mlb.com, "OBA" and "OBP" are the familiar On-Base stats for pitching is
              and batting. In the NA Project report, "OBA" is opponent batting average,
              or batting average against pitcher, which is "AVG" at mlb.com

              P/\/ \/\/t
              Paul Wendt, Watertown MA, USA <pgw@...>
              Chair, 19th Century Committee, SABR
              Owner-Administrator, 19cBB (egroup at Yahoo)
            • Paul Wendt
              ... Using the search by last name, I get nothing for Bond altho Tommy Bond pitched for Boston both in the NA and the NL; nothing for Zettlein altho George
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 18, 2003
                > On Tue, 1 Jul 2003, Charles Saeger wrote, in part:
                >
                > > MLB.com has the data, and has posted some of it to its site. It has
                > > team data for all teams, and has individual pitcher data for those
                > > pitchers who pitched for a team that survived.

                Using the search by last name, I get nothing for "Bond" altho Tommy Bond
                pitched for Boston both in the NA and the NL; nothing for Zettlein altho
                George Zettlein pitched for Chicago in the NA. Those two clubs have
                survived to the present day, as the Atlanta Braves and Chicago Cubs.

                Anyway, the NA Project report includes stats for each player-team-season.
                For example, there is one 1875 pitching line for George Bechtel,
                Centennial, and one for George Bechtel, Athletics (only two for Bechtel
                1875 because he did not appear in relief).

                Paul Wendt
              • Paul Wendt
                17 Jul 2003, I followed Derek Adair and Charles Saeger ... Intentional Walks in the NA? was the subject of 19cBB email discussion 22-23 Apr 2002. Greg Rhodes
                Message 7 of 12 , Jul 20, 2003
                  17 Jul 2003, I followed Derek Adair and Charles Saeger
                  "Re: [baseball-databank] Pitching Posted":

                  > > > I just posted an updated Pitching file with the following stats
                  > > added:
                  > >
                  > > > "IBB","WP","HBP","BK","BFP","GF","R"
                  > >
                  > > You might be able to fill some of these (other than Runs Allowed,
                  > > already there) for NA pitchers.
                  >
                  > (The first six of the seven new fields are filled with Nulls for 1871-75.)

                  "Intentional Walks in the NA?" was the subject of 19cBB email discussion
                  22-23 Apr 2002.

                  Greg Rhodes [Cincinnati OH] doubted that there was one IBB in the National
                  Association, 1871-1875, in the sense of a prepared play by the defense.
                  He also surmises that the "unintentional intentional" walk dates from the
                  institution of called balls in 1863 (the Dec 1863 annual meeting?).
                  No one argued the other side.

                  Greg Rhodes provided
                  >>
                  this newspaper account of the game of June 27, 1870 between the
                  [Cincinnati] Red Stockings and the Olympics of Washington D.C.
                  "The pitcher of the Olympics did his best to let George Wright take his
                  first every time on called balls, as he preferred that to George's style
                  of hitting. George went to first twice on called balls, but on three or
                  four other occasions he managed to strike the ball."
                  <<
                  and he later referred to those two as examples of the "unintentional IBB".

                  Also in 19cBB traffic, 2002:
                  - John Ward biographer David Stevens reported a claim that Ward ordered
                  the first intentional walk (no reference). That would be in 1890 or so.
                  - Cliff Blau found that umpires ruled inconsistently on intentional walk
                  plays in 1893 and 1894 (with references), which suggests novelty.

                  I infer that the IBB play was rare thru the 1880s. If it occurred at all,
                  it probably passed little or no newspaper report.

                  Whether to record zero or null for intentional walks in the early 1870s
                  depends on the meanings of those values and on practical matters, too.
                  If "0" covers believed zero and "--" covers ignorance, a practical
                  question is where to draw the line from year to year.

                  It may be reasonable to draw some lines between 1875 and 1876, because of
                  the change of regime that year. On the other hand, it may be reasonable
                  for bbdb to consult the Records Committee, SABR, regarding which
                  statistical categories to recognize by the use of zero rather than null.

                  P/\/ \/\/t
                  Paul Wendt, Watertown MA, USA <pgw@...>
                  Chair, 19th Century Committee, SABR
                  Owner-Administrator, 19cBB (egroup at Yahoo)
                • Paul Wendt
                  Does anyone here know the source of the Baseball Prospectus database? Or whether it is independent of the one at mlb.com? ... Re: Pitching Posted . . . ...
                  Message 8 of 12 , Aug 6, 2003
                    Does anyone here know the source of the Baseball Prospectus database?
                    Or whether it is independent of the one at mlb.com?

                    > On Tue, 1 Jul 2003, Charles Saeger quoted Derek Adair and replied
                    "Re: Pitching Posted"
                    . . .
                    > > > "IBB","WP","HBP","BK","BFP","GF","R"
                    > >
                    > > You might be able to fill some of these (other than Runs Allowed,
                    > > already there) for NA pitchers.
                    > >
                    > > MLB.com has the data, and has posted some of it to its site. It has
                    > > team data for all teams, and has individual pitcher data for those
                    > > pitchers who pitched for a team that survived. I played with this a
                    > > few months ago, and one can use this to find about a third of all NA
                    > > pitcher/seasons for Wild Pitches, Balks, and Games Finished.

                    Baseball Prospectus publishes WP and BK for 1871-1875.
                    Visit Al Spalding http://www.baseballprospectus.com/cards/spaldal01.shtml

                    Note that BP also publishes fielding statistics by position, including
                    LF-CF-RF. (Spalding played mainly CF, when Harry Wright pitched.)

                    I don't know their source.
                    I don't know whether they publish team and league season totals.
                    If so, those are not so easy to find as the players.

                    P/\/ \/\/t
                    Paul Wendt, Watertown MA, USA <pgw@...>
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