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562Re: [baseball-databank] DEFINITION - team IDs and ballclub IDs

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  • Paul Wendt
    Jul 4, 2002
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      On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, Sean Forman wrote:

      > tangotiger wrote:
      > > Let's continue on the discussion of team IDs and ballclub IDs.
      > >
      > > For those late in the game, a ballclub id (or franchise id or
      > > continuity id) is an id that refers to the same ballclub, regardless
      > > of where they play. For example, the Angels from 1961 to today have
      > > the same ballclub id (whatever its actual id is), whether they are
      > > the LA Angels, California Angels or Anaheim Angels. Same thing with
      > > teams moving from NY to LA or SF, etc.
      > >
      > > I believe that Paul, KJOK, and Sean F were able to agree on every
      > > ballclub, post-1900.
      >
      > The ballclub ID's are pretty solid.

      Yes, for the major leagues.

      New discoveries or interpretations are comparable to those for player
      identities, as when Fred King and Greg Smith, are discovered to be one, or
      when Fred King is discovered to be two.

      I mean "comparable" in at least two respects.

      - momentous. Don't hide such a discovery. Get your name on page one of a
      SABR Research Committee newsletter.

      - exceptional. The data-gatherers and -distributors (that's us) must
      incorporate such discoveries, but planning how to incorporate is separate
      from planning the database design. Or so it seems to me. Sean?

      ==
      For the major league ballclubs, even in the 19th century, the issues
      will be how to use ballclub IDs to cover activities when the club did
      not field a major league team.

      Example: Chicago White Stockings NA1872-73, fielded no team for two years
      in aftermath of the Chicago Fire.

      There are similar examples in independent baseball today, I believe.

      Example: Chicago White Stockings AL1900, one of at least four ballclubs
      that fielded teams in that league and also in the major league AL1901.
      The most recent examples are FL1913-FL1914: fielded a minor league team
      one year and a major league team the next.

      In the 19th century, there are some reverse examples. According to Greg
      Rhodes, author of Redleg Journal, the 1876-1880 Cinci NL ballclub fielded
      a semipro(?) team in 1881. This case is not yet clear to me. According
      to Frank Phelps, "Oliver Perry Caylor", _Baseball's First Stars_, SABR
      1995, the 1882- Cinci AA ballclub was founded in 1881 by Caylor, who
      "nurtured" the team during that year.

      For now, there is no data in the databank concerning the years when these
      ballclubs did not field major league teams, unless there is data on the
      nickname and management of the Arizona Diamond backs and other recent
      expansion clubs before they fielded teams.

      I suppose that AL1900 will be one of the first minor league-seasons whose
      rosters and maybe playing statistics will be included. Perhaps it will be
      the first "historical" minor league-season, from earlier than 1990 or so.
      Sean?

      -- P/\/ \/\/t

      Paul Wendt, Watertown MA, USA <pgw@...>
      Chair, 19th Century Committee, SABR
      Owner-Administrator, 19cBB (egroup at Yahoo)
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