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Re: [barsoom] fan-fic list

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  • Rick Johnson
    Burroughs had a theme that worked so he repeated it endlessly and it took decades to get tired of it. He had essential character traits that we loved, so
    Message 1 of 29 , Jun 2, 2009
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      Burroughs had a theme that worked so he repeated it endlessly and it took decades to get tired of it.
      He had essential character traits that we loved, so copied them always.
      And mostly he had a way of writing tht was just plain ... beautiful!

      Howard was the same.


      But their imitators tried to do just that... imitate but without the talent for writing. They tried to take the Burroughs theme and copy it by changing the names and planet but trying to keep the theme and character without knowing exactly where you can shift and where you must remain true.

      Most fanfic ignores all of these.
      And so some is good, some bad, some... funny with satire that the reader cannot understand because of the inside jokes.

      So if you want to read Burroughs, read Buroughs!
      If you want to read about Burroughs, and are willing to accept a vision that Burroughs would have rejected outright, then fan-fic is the way to go.

      THough I suspect that too many of us attempt to world-create or recreate his worlds or characters without really understanding what that is or takes when they/we should decide "Do I want to do a Burroughs story or my story in a Burroughs world?."


      Rick Johnson,
      PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
      geocities.com/RikJohnson39
      "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined security will soon find that they have neither!"

      Please note: message attached

      From: Den Valdron <dgvaldron@...>
      To: barsoom@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [barsoom] fan-fic list
      Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 21:01:13 -0700 (PDT)



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    • Den Valdron
      ... Still, I try to avoid writing ERB main characters as my main characters. I cannot do John Carter or Tarzan justice so relegate them to a walk-in.
      Message 2 of 29 , Jun 2, 2009
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        >>As for fanfiction, well, there's all sorts. There are people who are genuinely inspired to try and write like Burroughs, without really appreciating or understanding what Burroughs was doing that made it work.


        >I recognize that I cannot write like Burroughs so I don't try. And although I enjoy the attempt, feel that is is struggled at times. I write ME but me in his worlds. I try to be as cannonical as possible but then, sometimes I think, "That was just wrong and here is what would have happened.

        Still, I try to avoid writing ERB main characters as my main characters. I cannot do John Carter or Tarzan justice so relegate them to a walk-in. Otherwise the attempt would be laughable.


        It's tricky to try and do the characters, because they have such distinctive voices.  
        Most of the modern writers who have tried to do Tarzan, I'm thinking of Lansdale and Farmer, failed completely.But personally, I'm a scenery guy, and I'm more inclined to want to play with the world, deconstruct the format.


        >> Hell, in a nutshell, that's why the whole sword and planet genre died off. The people working it tried to imitate Burroughs, but had no idea what was making it work.


        >I can see that.

        Kline, Carter, the others I read but did not enjoy as much.

        Burroughs had a flair of language and a skewed view of the nobility of his characters that no one has been able to copy properly.

        BUT, the nobility of man shows through.. always.

        Kline's pretty good, but you could see he wasn't quite in touch.  the later writers were clueless.


        >>Say what you want about Rick Johnson, for instance, but he doesn't try to do Burroughs. He takes the elements and situations, but bottom line, he uses his own voice and he writes like a younger Heinlein.



        >I was proud until the Heinlein part...Oh get over it.  Heinlein's writing evolved over the years.  To tell you the truth, I found his later stuff overdone and self indulgent.  But his earlier material was brisk, the characters were plain spoken and there was a practical grit to his situations that worked well.

        >Te only thing by Heinlein I liked was _Glory Road_. Most of his still I find, dull.Try his short stories from the 50's and 60's.

        >How can anyone write like Burroughs? When I try, it comes off with me laughing at myself so I scap it and just think, What would I do in that situation.I don't think I made a decision to write like Burroughs.  What I did was try and break down the pulp format and structure and then write to that.  I was pleased with the results. 

        >So those 15 people who read my stuff didn't read Burroughs or a Burroughs clone, they read about Burroughs but with a differnt vision.. though a somewhat insane vision.

        Probably why there were only 15 people who read _Maiden on Barsoom_ and fewer who read _Escape from Pellucidar_ and none who read _Weir-Lu of Caspak_. And my Janice in Pellucidar stories had to be hidden from public view because of the adult themes.
        Don't count the readers.  That way lies madness.  I put a 100,000 words of sweat into Torakar, and maybe once a year someone writes in to tell me they liked it.  I thank Bill for having it up on his site, and someday I want to take it and revamp it into a commercially saleable fantasy novel.  But seriously, don't dwell.If you wanted to be read, write Star Wars fanfic, or Aliens fanfic.  Or better yet, don't write fanfic at all.   Clean it up and start sending it out to real publishers.


        >But then, I don't have the grasp of the nobilty of character and virginity of the heros and heroines that was the staple of Burroughs. And neither do many others. But I admit it.

        Well, I tried and ended up with a homicidal lesbian with a chip on her shoulder the size of the city of Helium and more emotional problems than a White Ape in a petting zoo.






















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      • jhuckenp@aol.com
        ... Rick -- You might have more readers if you publicized these. I m sure I ve missed at least some of them, and would love to read all. In fact, they
        Message 3 of 29 , Jun 2, 2009
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          In a message dated 3/6/09 0:04:52, rikjohnson@... writes:

          > Probably why there were only 15 people who read _Maiden on Barsoom_ and
          > fewer who read _Escape from Pellucidar_ and none who read _Weir-Lu of
          > Caspak_. And my Janice in Pellucidar stories had to be hidden from public view
          > because of the adult themes.
          >
          Rick --

          You might have more readers if you publicized these. I'm sure I've missed
          at least some of them, and would love to read all. In fact, they ought to
          be listed in my "Pocket Checklist".

          AQPorter



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        • Rick Johnson
          I m busy converting that jpg file to excel. i ll reduce the sixe nd be more searchable. But it will only list the stuff I personally own or have written.
          Message 4 of 29 , Jun 3, 2009
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            I'm busy converting that jpg file to excel. i'll reduce the sixe nd be more searchable. But it will only list the stuff I personally own or have written.

            Tangor's site has a database gives links to a lot of fabfic. i updated it a year or two ago but then forgot about it so will have to go back and add the more recent stuff.
            Still, it is the most complete Fan-fic listing that I have found.

            I just havn't figured out what to do with my stuff yet.
            Since Geocities is closing and my materials are on a number of geocities sites: http://geocities.com/RikJohson39 is the portal site, when geocities is gone, so will my fiction and maps and atlas.
            Unless Icn find an alternative.


            Rick Johnson,
            PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
            geocities.com/RikJohnson39
            "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined security will soon find that they have neither!"

            Please note: message attached

            From: jhuckenp@...
            To: barsoom@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [barsoom] fan-fic list
            Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 02:20:00 EDT


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          • Jay Jackson
            That s how I think fan fiction should be done. Instead of intruding on someone else s universe, the fanfic-minded author should create his own universe and
            Message 5 of 29 , Jun 3, 2009
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              That's how I think fan fiction should be done. Instead of intruding on someone else's universe, the fanfic-minded author should create his own universe and apply his own ideas, thoughts, and sensibilities to a universe unique to him. J U Giesy started this with his Palos of the Dog Star Pack trilogy right after World War II, and Leigh Brackett, Otis Kline, Robert Howard, and later Lin Carter among others homaged ERB similarly in succeeding decades. It just always seems best when an author, even if inspired by another, puts his own slant on things in a universe created by himself rather than placing his conceptions in a universe already peopled by someone else's creations.

              --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Den Valdron <dgvaldron@...> wrote:


              From: Den Valdron <dgvaldron@...>
              Subject: Re: [barsoom] fan-fic list
              To: barsoom@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 12:11 AM








              I'm reading N.P.B. Barker's 'Under Crimson Moons' which is a sort of pseudo-Barsoom fanfic.   Pseudo Barsoom, in that its Mars and its following the Burroughs plotline, but he's replaced all the regular Barsoom stuff.  So instead of Green men, its blue scaled scorpion men, instead of a Red princess its a green skinned girl, etc.










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            • Jay Jackson
              Initially de Camp went on board with editing the Conan series because he was the only established writer Martin Greenberg could get to take the project. Leigh
              Message 6 of 29 , Jun 3, 2009
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                Initially de Camp went on board with editing the Conan series because he was the only established writer Martin Greenberg could get to take the project. Leigh Brackett had earlier been approached but had declined because Greenberg paid too late for her tastes. Given the fact Brackett expressed a love of Howard's work during her lifetime and de Camp said he had disliked Howard's work upon first reading, it's clear who would have done a better job with the character. Later, realizing his own fiction didn't sell too well and realizing he had a hot property in Conan, de camp tried to jettison Greenberg from the project and acquire the lion's share of the royalties from the stories for himself--hence the unnecessary editing of the stories--but, failing that, got Lin Carter on board to aid in editing the stories and writing new pastiches so as to establish de Camp's--rather than Howard's heirs'--control over Conan. De Camp further tried to do this with Solomon
                Kane, but Glenn Lord blocked him and prevented de Camp from seizing control of any other Howard property. Later, Karl Edward Wagner, infuriated with de Camp's assumption of control over Conan, tried to get the original Howard texts back into print and succeeded with about a third of the series before de Camp managed to find legal loopholes to prevent the completion of the Wagner-edited series. Later, a similar attempt by Baen books met the same fate. Of course in a way, Wagner had the last laugh by publishing versions of two other stories de Camp couldn't find a way to claim control over with de camp frothing in the wings. Later, waiting till Carter's death of course, de Camp threw Lin Carter overboard, claiming Carter got royalties for doing nothing while de Camp did all the heavy lifting. Finally toward the end of de Camp's life, some publishers mustered the cajones to inquire about publishing the Conan stories free of de Camp's interference with none
                of the endlessly repetitive pastiches. Wandering Star, in cooperation with several Howard scholars, began this ambitious project shortly before de Camp's death. Finally in the last few years almost all Conan pastiches have disappeared from the shelves while Howard's Conan is a staple of the fantasy lines for Wandering Star overseas and Del Rey here. Thus, you can see de Camp did what he did to Conan not out of any magnanimous desire to keep an underrrated writer's creation in print but for his own monetary gain. Thankfully Howard finally won out. As Howard himself once said, "...barbarism must always ultimately triumph."

                --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Rick Johnson <rikjohnson@...> wrote:


                From: Rick Johnson <rikjohnson@...>
                Subject: Re: [barsoom] fan-fic list
                To: barsoom@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 1:02 AM








                >>My impression of DeCamp is that he was never really comfortable in the fantasy genre. Sometimes I wondered why he bothered to write in it, since it seemed to so clearly cut against his grain.

                DeCamp was at his best when he creatd his own characters in his own world _The Honorable Barbarian_ comes to mind.
                He was more into the "I'm a barbarian because Fate threw me into that role but I'd really rather be a librarian" idea. His best heros never charged into danger, they were tossed into miserable situations and tried to excape.
                So, yes, DeCamp never could grasp the essential Conanesque character. So he tried to copy Howard but without Howard's intuitive understanding of the genre.
                I like de Camp but see him as writing tongue-in-cheek and that is where he shines.

                >>I can't understand how he could possibly love Lovecraft's work so much, and yet not have the faintest clue as to what actually made it worthwhile and powerful.

                Howard and Lovcraft had something that the others lacked.. nightmares.
                Ok, Lovecraft had nightmares and wrote them down as therapy which made them so good.
                Howard said that he always felt like he was in a bar listening to some barbarian talk about his past life...
                Neither actually wrote anything, they saw themselves as recorders of other people's lives.

                I feel the same way. It's like I'll start with an outline, write a scene and have the character snap, "No! It didn't happen that way! Here's what really happened," and when I listen and rewrite, it comes out better.

                I always felt that DeCamp was struggling with Conan but enjoying his own works... but not Shea who was... well he was a forced character and DeCamp never really understood the man who he tried to be a classic hero so could not write him well.

                >>As for fanfiction, well, there's all sorts. There are people who are genuinely inspired to try and write like Burroughs, without really appreciating or understanding what Burroughs was doing that made it work.

                I recognize that I cannot write like Burroughs so I don't try. And although I enjoy the attempt, feel that is is struggled at times. I write ME but me in his worlds. I try to be as cannonical as possible but then, sometimes I think, "That was just wrong and here is what would have happened.
                Still, I try to avoid writing ERB main characters as my main characters. I cannot do John Carter or Tarzan justice so relegate them to a walk-in. Otherwise the attempt would be laughable.

                >> Hell, in a nutshell, that's why the whole sword and planet genre died off. The people working it tried to imitate Burroughs, but had no idea what was making it work.

                I can see that.
                Kline, Carter, the others I read but did not enjoy as much.
                Burroughs had a flair of language and a skewed view of the nobility of his characters that no one has been able to copy properly.
                BUT, the nobility of man shows through.. always.

                >>Say what you want about Rick Johnson, for instance, but he doesn't try to do Burroughs. He takes the elements and situations, but bottom line, he uses his own voice and he writes like a younger Heinlein.

                I was proud until the Heinlein part...
                Te only thing by Heinlein I liked was _Glory Road_. Most of his still I find, dull.
                But then, when DeCamp writes his own stuff, I like him.

                How can anyone write like Burroughs? When I try, it comes off with me laughing at myself so I scap it and just think, What would I do in that situation.
                So those 15 people who read my stuff didn't read Burroughs or a Burroughs clone, they read about Burroughs but with a differnt vision.. though a somewhat insane vision.
                Probably why there were only 15 people who read _Maiden on Barsoom_ and fewer who read _Escape from Pellucidar_ and none who read _Weir-Lu of Caspak_. And my Janice in Pellucidar stories had to be hidden from public view because of the adult themes.

                But then, I don't have the grasp of the nobilty of character and virginity of the heros and heroines that was the staple of Burroughs. And neither do many others. But I admit it.

                It's a differnt world. I grew up an impoverished and exiled Irish noble in a military family but seeing women and blacks as equal to men so my point of view is so differnet I cannot possibly imitate the Master of Adventure.

                I think that Burroughs had a dream! And the literary ability to describe that dream in a floral sense that made people want to continue to read as their inner mind said "wow, that was a beautiful way to phrase that!"

                Plus I am not writing for the audience that banned _From Here to Eternity_ because of that kiss on the beach. I am writing for that audience that never understood the concept of virginity until marriage or that running with big boobs hurts! or that not all men are built like a DC or Marvel superhero (but the women should be<g>)! Or that sex is fun! even for the women! and hitting someone in the jaw breaks my hand so I'll kick his kneecap off then punch his ribs through his lungs as he falls! Or that the idea of the hero getting the crap beat out of him... then standing up to win is totally unrealistic so cheat!

                A bit more cynical but also a bit more realistic at times.

                But then, my father saw me as ... inadequate because I raised children and changed diapers and refused to hunt and chose Karate over Football.

                Burroughs, like Howard, knew their work and instead of imitating the style of others, seemed to relax and allow the Muse to possess them to the betterment of us all.

                Rick Johnson,
                PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
                geocities.com/ RikJohnson39
                "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined security will soon find that they have neither!"

                Please note: message attached

                From: Den Valdron <dgvaldron@yahoo. ca>
                To: barsoom@yahoogroups .com
                Subject: Re: [barsoom] fan-fic list
                Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 21:01:13 -0700 (PDT)

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              • sailor.barsoom
                ... ... Amen. When I started _Cassandra in Pellucidar_, I quickly realized that I wasn t doing a Burroughs story, because Cassandra isn t a Burroughs
                Message 7 of 29 , Jun 3, 2009
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                  --- In barsoom, "Rick Johnson" wrote:

                  <snip>

                  > they/we should decide "Do I want to do a Burroughs story
                  > or my story in a Burroughs world?."

                  Amen. When I started _Cassandra in Pellucidar_, I quickly
                  realized that I wasn't doing a Burroughs story, because
                  Cassandra isn't a Burroughs character. This was a story of
                  one of MY characters... in a Burroughs world. So while I
                  had to make sure Pellucidar was accurately portrayed,
                  Cassandra herself would talk and act the way she does, not
                  like Dian or Dejah Thoris. If she values her virginity,
                  it's because she's fourteen years old, not because she
                  thinks her honor, virtue, or general worth-while-ness is
                  tied up with whether or not she's gotten around to doing
                  something she assumes she'll get around to when she's a
                  little older. My Pellucidarians have to talk like
                  Pellucidarians, and as she settles in she starts to talk a
                  bit like them, too, but she is a late-Twentieth/
                  early-Twenty-First Century urban teenager, not a tall,
                  beefy man from 1912. She isn't David Innes.

                  Oh, and about CiP... I don't know. The muse left me, and
                  though I did write a scene from EIGHT CHAPTERS LATER, the
                  story is currently in suspended animation. Predictions for
                  when I will write more seem to be "about half-past-noon...
                  Pellucidar time." Sorry.

                  That scene, BTW, is one Burroughs would NEVER have written
                  for one of his characters. Can you imagine David Innes
                  describing a shamanistic drug-induced trip?
                • sailor.barsoom
                  ... ROTFLOLABITC And I haven t used that one in a looong time. Torakar Thor is exactly the sort of character that I do not like. Not because she s a lesbian
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jun 3, 2009
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                    --- In barsoom, Den Valdron wrote:

                    > Well, I tried and ended up with a homicidal lesbian with
                    > a chip on her shoulder the size of the city of Helium and
                    > more emotional problems than a White Ape in a petting zoo.

                    ROTFLOLABITC
                    And I haven't used that one in a looong time.

                    Torakar Thor is exactly the sort of character that I do not
                    like. Not because she's a lesbian or because she is a female
                    warrior, but because of the chip on her shoulder and her
                    whole "I hate everybody" attitude.

                    So the fact that I found myself actually caring about this
                    bitch, and feeling some sympathy for her feelings, means that
                    she was well-written and became more than the stock
                    stereotype that I hate so much.

                    I like Azara better, though. She's been through at least as
                    much as Tarakar, and handles it better.

                    One thing that's kind of interesting is that it never occurs
                    to Karakar that Azara might be straight. I guess gaydar
                    works on Mars, too. ^_~
                  • Den Valdron
                    That s so unspeakably sleazy. Thanks for unvieling. ... Initially de Camp went on board with editing the Conan series because he was the only established
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jun 3, 2009
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                      That's so unspeakably sleazy.

                      Thanks for unvieling.

                      --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Jay Jackson <roberthowardfan@...> wrote:













                      Initially de Camp went on board with editing the Conan series because he was the only established writer Martin Greenberg could get to take the project. Leigh Brackett had earlier been approached but had declined because Greenberg paid too late for her tastes. Given the fact Brackett expressed a love of Howard's work during her lifetime and de Camp said he had disliked Howard's work upon first reading, it's clear who would have done a better job with the character. Later, realizing his own fiction didn't sell too well and realizing he had a hot property in Conan, de camp tried to jettison Greenberg from the project and acquire the lion's share of the royalties from the stories for himself--hence the unnecessary editing of the stories--but, failing that, got Lin Carter on board to aid in editing the stories and writing new pastiches so as to establish de Camp's--rather than Howard's heirs'--control over Conan. De Camp further tried to do this with Solomon

                      Kane, but Glenn Lord blocked him and prevented de Camp from seizing control of any other Howard property. Later, Karl Edward Wagner, infuriated with de Camp's assumption of control over Conan, tried to get the original Howard texts back into print and succeeded with about a third of the series before de Camp managed to find legal loopholes to prevent the completion of the Wagner-edited series. Later, a similar attempt by Baen books met the same fate. Of course in a way, Wagner had the last laugh by publishing versions of two other stories de Camp couldn't find a way to claim control over with de camp frothing in the wings. Later, waiting till Carter's death of course, de Camp threw Lin Carter overboard, claiming Carter got royalties for doing nothing while de Camp did all the heavy lifting. Finally toward the end of de Camp's life, some publishers mustered the cajones to inquire about publishing the Conan stories free of de Camp's interference with none

                      of the endlessly repetitive pastiches. Wandering Star, in cooperation with several Howard scholars, began this ambitious project shortly before de Camp's death. Finally in the last few years almost all Conan pastiches have disappeared from the shelves while Howard's Conan is a staple of the fantasy lines for Wandering Star overseas and Del Rey here. Thus, you can see de Camp did what he did to Conan not out of any magnanimous desire to keep an underrrated writer's creation in print but for his own monetary gain. Thankfully Howard finally won out. As Howard himself once said, "...barbarism must always ultimately triumph."






















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                    • Den Valdron
                      I think we all love Azara.  What redeems Tora is that once she falls in love, she falls headlong and never looks back.   She knows she s unworthy of Azara
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jun 3, 2009
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                        I think we all love Azara.  What redeems Tora is that once she falls in love, she falls headlong and never looks back.   She knows she's unworthy of Azara and keeps trying to let her go but she can't.

                        I think that the other thing that works for Tora is that her neurosis is very organic.  It's not the cliched trope.  And its something that gets unravelled as we get to know her.


                        --- On Wed, 6/3/09, sailor.barsoom <sailorbarsoom@...> wrote:


                        ROTFLOLABITC

                        And I haven't used that one in a looong time.



                        Torakar Thor is exactly the sort of character that I do not

                        like. Not because she's a lesbian or because she is a female

                        warrior, but because of the chip on her shoulder and her

                        whole "I hate everybody" attitude.



                        So the fact that I found myself actually caring about this

                        bitch, and feeling some sympathy for her feelings, means that

                        she was well-written and became more than the stock

                        stereotype that I hate so much.



                        I like Azara better, though. She's been through at least as

                        much as Tarakar, and handles it better.



                        One thing that's kind of interesting is that it never occurs

                        to Karakar that Azara might be straight. I guess gaydar

                        works on Mars, too. ^_~





























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                      • Den Valdron
                        Cassandra in Pellucidar?  I d love to take a look at it sometime. ... From: sailor.barsoom Subject: [barsoom] Re: fan-fic list To:
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jun 3, 2009
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                          Cassandra in Pellucidar?  I'd love to take a look at it sometime.

                          --- On Wed, 6/3/09, sailor.barsoom <sailorbarsoom@...> wrote:

                          From: sailor.barsoom <sailorbarsoom@...>
                          Subject: [barsoom] Re: fan-fic list
                          To: barsoom@yahoogroups.com
                          Received: Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 5:38 PM

















                          --- In barsoom, "Rick Johnson" wrote:



                          <snip>



                          > they/we should decide "Do I want to do a Burroughs story

                          > or my story in a Burroughs world?."



                          Amen. When I started _Cassandra in Pellucidar_, I quickly

                          realized that I wasn't doing a Burroughs story, because

                          Cassandra isn't a Burroughs character. This was a story of

                          one of MY characters.. . in a Burroughs world. So while I

                          had to make sure Pellucidar was accurately portrayed,

                          Cassandra herself would talk and act the way she does, not

                          like Dian or Dejah Thoris. If she values her virginity,

                          it's because she's fourteen years old, not because she

                          thinks her honor, virtue, or general worth-while- ness is

                          tied up with whether or not she's gotten around to doing

                          something she assumes she'll get around to when she's a

                          little older. My Pellucidarians have to talk like

                          Pellucidarians, and as she settles in she starts to talk a

                          bit like them, too, but she is a late-Twentieth/

                          early-Twenty- First Century urban teenager, not a tall,

                          beefy man from 1912. She isn't David Innes.



                          Oh, and about CiP... I don't know. The muse left me, and

                          though I did write a scene from EIGHT CHAPTERS LATER, the

                          story is currently in suspended animation. Predictions for

                          when I will write more seem to be "about half-past-noon. ..

                          Pellucidar time." Sorry.



                          That scene, BTW, is one Burroughs would NEVER have written

                          for one of his characters. Can you imagine David Innes

                          describing a shamanistic drug-induced trip?





























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                        • steveseg@aol.com
                          Sailor stated: Oh, and about CiP... I don t know. The muse left me, and though I did write a scene from EIGHT CHAPTERS LATER, the story is currently in
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jun 4, 2009
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                            Sailor stated:

                            Oh, and about CiP... I don't know. The muse left me, and

                            though I did write a scene from EIGHT CHAPTERS LATER, the

                            story is currently in suspended animation. Predictions for

                            when I will write more seem to be "about half-past-noon. ..

                            Pellucidar time." Sorry.


                            I appreciate the update as I have been anxiously awaiting the further adventures of Cassandra in Pellucidar. I sincerely hope the muse returns...

                            Steve S.

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Den Valdron <dgvaldron@...>
                            To: barsoom@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 9:57 pm
                            Subject: Re: [barsoom] Re: fan-fic list








                            Cassandra in Pellucidar?? I'd love to take a look at it sometime.

                            --- On Wed, 6/3/09, sailor.barsoom <sailorbarsoom@...> wrote:

                            From: sailor.barsoom <sailorbarsoom@...>
                            Subject: [barsoom] Re: fan-fic list
                            To: barsoom@yahoogroups.com
                            Received: Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 5:38 PM

                            --- In barsoom, "Rick Johnson" wrote:

                            <snip>

                            > they/we should decide "Do I want to do a Burroughs story

                            > or my story in a Burroughs world?."

                            Amen. When I started _Cassandra in Pellucidar_, I quickly

                            realized that I wasn't doing a Burroughs story, because

                            Cassandra isn't a Burroughs character. This was a story of

                            one of MY characters.. . in a Burroughs world. So while I

                            had to make sure Pellucidar was accurately portrayed,

                            Cassandra herself would talk and act the way she does, not

                            like Dian or Dejah Thoris. If she values her virginity,

                            it's because she's fourteen years old, not because she

                            thinks her honor, virtue, or general worth-while- ness is

                            tied up with whether or not she's gotten around to doing

                            something she assumes she'll get around to when she's a

                            little older. My Pellucidarians have to talk like

                            Pellucidarians, and as she settles in she starts to talk a

                            bit like them, too, but she is a late-Twentieth/

                            early-Twenty- First Century urban teenager, not a tall,

                            beefy man from 1912. She isn't David Innes.

                            Oh, and about CiP... I don't know. The muse left me, and

                            though I did write a scene from EIGHT CHAPTERS LATER, the

                            story is currently in suspended animation. Predictions for

                            when I will write more seem to be "about half-past-noon. ..

                            Pellucidar time." Sorry.

                            That scene, BTW, is one Burroughs would NEVER have written

                            for one of his characters. Can you imagine David Innes

                            describing a shamanistic drug-induced trip?











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                          • sailor.barsoom
                            ... Thanks. I know I want her to encounter Mahars. Those mesmerized maidens, walking helplessly to their own death via EATING... What would that sound like
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jun 4, 2009
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                              --- In barsoom, steveseg wrote:

                              > I appreciate the update as I have been anxiously awaiting
                              > the further adventures of Cassandra in Pellucidar. I
                              > sincerely hope the muse returns...
                              >
                              > Steve S.

                              Thanks. I know I want her to encounter Mahars. Those
                              mesmerized maidens, walking helplessly to their own death
                              via EATING...

                              What would that sound like from the maiden's point of view?
                              Of course she'll have to be rescued at the last second, but
                              isn't that what these stories are all about?

                              I'll post the "psychedelic" scene if anybody wants me to.
                              It takes place after the Mahar part (which, of course, I
                              haven't written yet).
                            • steveseg@aol.com
                              I ll post the psychedelic scene if anybody wants me to. Please do! Steve S. ... From: sailor.barsoom To: barsoom@yahoogroups.com
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jun 4, 2009
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                                I'll post the "psychedelic" scene if anybody wants me to.



                                Please do!

                                Steve S.

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: sailor.barsoom <sailorbarsoom@...>
                                To: barsoom@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 1:49 pm
                                Subject: [barsoom] Re: CiP








                                --- In barsoom, steveseg wrote:

                                > I appreciate the update as I have been anxiously awaiting
                                > the further adventures of Cassandra in Pellucidar. I
                                > sincerely hope the muse returns...
                                >
                                > Steve S.

                                Thanks. I know I want her to encounter Mahars. Those
                                mesmerized maidens, walking helplessly to their own death
                                via EATING...

                                What would that sound like from the maiden's point of view?
                                Of course she'll have to be rescued at the last second, but
                                isn't that what these stories are all about?

                                I'll post the "psychedelic" scene if anybody wants me to.
                                It takes place after the Mahar part (which, of course, I
                                haven't written yet).








                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Jean Elliott
                                Where can I find the Janice in Pellucidar stories? I like adult themes mixed in with familiar themes. Several years ago I read Jane of the Jungle, which I
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jun 5, 2009
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                                  Where can I find the Janice in Pellucidar stories? I like adult themes mixed in with familiar themes. Several years ago I read Jane of the Jungle, which I think was posted on ERBzine, and it was a delightful updating of Tarzan.

                                  " illegitimi non carborundum "





                                  To: barsoom@yahoogroups.com
                                  From: dgvaldron@...
                                  Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 22:42:57 -0700
                                  Subject: Re: [barsoom] fan-fic list







                                  >>As for fanfiction, well, there's all sorts. There are people who are genuinely inspired to try and write like Burroughs, without really appreciating or understanding what Burroughs was doing that made it work.

                                  >I recognize that I cannot write like Burroughs so I don't try. And although I enjoy the attempt, feel that is is struggled at times. I write ME but me in his worlds. I try to be as cannonical as possible but then, sometimes I think, "That was just wrong and here is what would have happened.

                                  Still, I try to avoid writing ERB main characters as my main characters. I cannot do John Carter or Tarzan justice so relegate them to a walk-in. Otherwise the attempt would be laughable.

                                  It's tricky to try and do the characters, because they have such distinctive voices.
                                  Most of the modern writers who have tried to do Tarzan, I'm thinking of Lansdale and Farmer, failed completely.But personally, I'm a scenery guy, and I'm more inclined to want to play with the world, deconstruct the format.

                                  >> Hell, in a nutshell, that's why the whole sword and planet genre died off. The people working it tried to imitate Burroughs, but had no idea what was making it work.

                                  >I can see that.

                                  Kline, Carter, the others I read but did not enjoy as much.

                                  Burroughs had a flair of language and a skewed view of the nobility of his characters that no one has been able to copy properly.

                                  BUT, the nobility of man shows through.. always.

                                  Kline's pretty good, but you could see he wasn't quite in touch. the later writers were clueless.

                                  >>Say what you want about Rick Johnson, for instance, but he doesn't try to do Burroughs. He takes the elements and situations, but bottom line, he uses his own voice and he writes like a younger Heinlein.

                                  >I was proud until the Heinlein part...Oh get over it. Heinlein's writing evolved over the years. To tell you the truth, I found his later stuff overdone and self indulgent. But his earlier material was brisk, the characters were plain spoken and there was a practical grit to his situations that worked well.

                                  >Te only thing by Heinlein I liked was _Glory Road_. Most of his still I find, dull.Try his short stories from the 50's and 60's.

                                  >How can anyone write like Burroughs? When I try, it comes off with me laughing at myself so I scap it and just think, What would I do in that situation.I don't think I made a decision to write like Burroughs. What I did was try and break down the pulp format and structure and then write to that. I was pleased with the results.

                                  >So those 15 people who read my stuff didn't read Burroughs or a Burroughs clone, they read about Burroughs but with a differnt vision.. though a somewhat insane vision.

                                  Probably why there were only 15 people who read _Maiden on Barsoom_ and fewer who read _Escape from Pellucidar_ and none who read _Weir-Lu of Caspak_. And my Janice in Pellucidar stories had to be hidden from public view because of the adult themes.
                                  Don't count the readers. That way lies madness. I put a 100,000 words of sweat into Torakar, and maybe once a year someone writes in to tell me they liked it. I thank Bill for having it up on his site, and someday I want to take it and revamp it into a commercially saleable fantasy novel. But seriously, don't dwell.If you wanted to be read, write Star Wars fanfic, or Aliens fanfic. Or better yet, don't write fanfic at all. Clean it up and start sending it out to real publishers.

                                  >But then, I don't have the grasp of the nobilty of character and virginity of the heros and heroines that was the staple of Burroughs. And neither do many others. But I admit it.

                                  Well, I tried and ended up with a homicidal lesbian with a chip on her shoulder the size of the city of Helium and more emotional problems than a White Ape in a petting zoo.










                                  __________________________________________________________
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                                • Bill and Sue-On Hillman
                                  Jean: See the guide to Rick Johnson s stories and articles in ERBzine at: http://www.erbzine.com/mag16/1645.html Janice is featured in Jurassic World in the
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jun 5, 2009
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                                    Jean:
                                    See the guide to Rick Johnson's stories and articles in ERBzine at:
                                    http://www.erbzine.com/mag16/1645.html
                                    Janice is featured in Jurassic World in the adult section.

                                    Bill Hillman
                                    http://www.ERBzine.com
                                    http://www.pellucidar.org

                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Jean Elliott" <Turbo-ducky@...>
                                    To: <barsoom@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 6:17 PM
                                    Subject: RE: [barsoom] fan-fic list



                                    Where can I find the Janice in Pellucidar stories? I like adult themes
                                    mixed in with familiar themes. Several years ago I read Jane of the Jungle,
                                    which I think was posted on ERBzine, and it was a delightful updating of
                                    Tarzan.

                                    " illegitimi non carborundum "





                                    To: barsoom@yahoogroups.com
                                    From: dgvaldron@...
                                    Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 22:42:57 -0700
                                    Subject: Re: [barsoom] fan-fic list







                                    >>As for fanfiction, well, there's all sorts. There are people who are
                                    >>genuinely inspired to try and write like Burroughs, without really
                                    >>appreciating or understanding what Burroughs was doing that made it work.

                                    >I recognize that I cannot write like Burroughs so I don't try. And although
                                    >I enjoy the attempt, feel that is is struggled at times. I write ME but me
                                    >in his worlds. I try to be as cannonical as possible but then, sometimes I
                                    >think, "That was just wrong and here is what would have happened.

                                    Still, I try to avoid writing ERB main characters as my main characters. I
                                    cannot do John Carter or Tarzan justice so relegate them to a walk-in.
                                    Otherwise the attempt would be laughable.

                                    It's tricky to try and do the characters, because they have such distinctive
                                    voices.
                                    Most of the modern writers who have tried to do Tarzan, I'm thinking of
                                    Lansdale and Farmer, failed completely.But personally, I'm a scenery guy,
                                    and I'm more inclined to want to play with the world, deconstruct the
                                    format.

                                    >> Hell, in a nutshell, that's why the whole sword and planet genre died
                                    >> off. The people working it tried to imitate Burroughs, but had no idea
                                    >> what was making it work.

                                    >I can see that.

                                    Kline, Carter, the others I read but did not enjoy as much.

                                    Burroughs had a flair of language and a skewed view of the nobility of his
                                    characters that no one has been able to copy properly.

                                    BUT, the nobility of man shows through.. always.

                                    Kline's pretty good, but you could see he wasn't quite in touch. the later
                                    writers were clueless.

                                    >>Say what you want about Rick Johnson, for instance, but he doesn't try to
                                    >>do Burroughs. He takes the elements and situations, but bottom line, he
                                    >>uses his own voice and he writes like a younger Heinlein.

                                    >I was proud until the Heinlein part...Oh get over it. Heinlein's writing
                                    >evolved over the years. To tell you the truth, I found his later stuff
                                    >overdone and self indulgent. But his earlier material was brisk, the
                                    >characters were plain spoken and there was a practical grit to his
                                    >situations that worked well.

                                    >Te only thing by Heinlein I liked was _Glory Road_. Most of his still I
                                    >find, dull.Try his short stories from the 50's and 60's.

                                    >How can anyone write like Burroughs? When I try, it comes off with me
                                    >laughing at myself so I scap it and just think, What would I do in that
                                    >situation.I don't think I made a decision to write like Burroughs. What I
                                    >did was try and break down the pulp format and structure and then write to
                                    >that. I was pleased with the results.

                                    >So those 15 people who read my stuff didn't read Burroughs or a Burroughs
                                    >clone, they read about Burroughs but with a differnt vision.. though a
                                    >somewhat insane vision.

                                    Probably why there were only 15 people who read _Maiden on Barsoom_ and
                                    fewer who read _Escape from Pellucidar_ and none who read _Weir-Lu of
                                    Caspak_. And my Janice in Pellucidar stories had to be hidden from public
                                    view because of the adult themes.
                                    Don't count the readers. That way lies madness. I put a 100,000 words of
                                    sweat into Torakar, and maybe once a year someone writes in to tell me they
                                    liked it. I thank Bill for having it up on his site, and someday I want to
                                    take it and revamp it into a commercially saleable fantasy novel. But
                                    seriously, don't dwell.If you wanted to be read, write Star Wars fanfic, or
                                    Aliens fanfic. Or better yet, don't write fanfic at all. Clean it up and
                                    start sending it out to real publishers.

                                    >But then, I don't have the grasp of the nobilty of character and virginity
                                    >of the heros and heroines that was the staple of Burroughs. And neither do
                                    >many others. But I admit it.

                                    Well, I tried and ended up with a homicidal lesbian with a chip on her
                                    shoulder the size of the city of Helium and more emotional problems than a
                                    White Ape in a petting zoo.










                                    __________________________________________________________
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                                    boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to
                                    New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca

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                                  • Jean Elliott
                                    Much obliged. illegitimi non carborundum To: barsoom@yahoogroups.com From: hillmans@westman.wave.ca Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 19:35:56 -0600 Subject: Re:
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jun 6, 2009
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                                      Much obliged.

                                      " illegitimi non carborundum "





                                      To: barsoom@yahoogroups.com
                                      From: hillmans@...
                                      Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 19:35:56 -0600
                                      Subject: Re: [barsoom] fan-fic list







                                      Jean:
                                      See the guide to Rick Johnson's stories and articles in ERBzine at:
                                      http://www.erbzine.com/mag16/1645.html
                                      Janice is featured in Jurassic World in the adult section.

                                      Bill Hillman
                                      http://www.ERBzine.com
                                      http://www.pellucidar.org

                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "Jean Elliott" <Turbo-ducky@...>
                                      To: <barsoom@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 6:17 PM
                                      Subject: RE: [barsoom] fan-fic list

                                      Where can I find the Janice in Pellucidar stories? I like adult themes
                                      mixed in with familiar themes. Several years ago I read Jane of the Jungle,
                                      which I think was posted on ERBzine, and it was a delightful updating of
                                      Tarzan.

                                      " illegitimi non carborundum "

                                      To: barsoom@yahoogroups.com
                                      From: dgvaldron@...
                                      Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 22:42:57 -0700
                                      Subject: Re: [barsoom] fan-fic list

                                      >>As for fanfiction, well, there's all sorts. There are people who are
                                      >>genuinely inspired to try and write like Burroughs, without really
                                      >>appreciating or understanding what Burroughs was doing that made it work.

                                      >I recognize that I cannot write like Burroughs so I don't try. And although
                                      >I enjoy the attempt, feel that is is struggled at times. I write ME but me
                                      >in his worlds. I try to be as cannonical as possible but then, sometimes I
                                      >think, "That was just wrong and here is what would have happened.

                                      Still, I try to avoid writing ERB main characters as my main characters. I
                                      cannot do John Carter or Tarzan justice so relegate them to a walk-in.
                                      Otherwise the attempt would be laughable.

                                      It's tricky to try and do the characters, because they have such distinctive
                                      voices.
                                      Most of the modern writers who have tried to do Tarzan, I'm thinking of
                                      Lansdale and Farmer, failed completely.But personally, I'm a scenery guy,
                                      and I'm more inclined to want to play with the world, deconstruct the
                                      format.

                                      >> Hell, in a nutshell, that's why the whole sword and planet genre died
                                      >> off. The people working it tried to imitate Burroughs, but had no idea
                                      >> what was making it work.

                                      >I can see that.

                                      Kline, Carter, the others I read but did not enjoy as much.

                                      Burroughs had a flair of language and a skewed view of the nobility of his
                                      characters that no one has been able to copy properly.

                                      BUT, the nobility of man shows through.. always.

                                      Kline's pretty good, but you could see he wasn't quite in touch. the later
                                      writers were clueless.

                                      >>Say what you want about Rick Johnson, for instance, but he doesn't try to
                                      >>do Burroughs. He takes the elements and situations, but bottom line, he
                                      >>uses his own voice and he writes like a younger Heinlein.

                                      >I was proud until the Heinlein part...Oh get over it. Heinlein's writing
                                      >evolved over the years. To tell you the truth, I found his later stuff
                                      >overdone and self indulgent. But his earlier material was brisk, the
                                      >characters were plain spoken and there was a practical grit to his
                                      >situations that worked well.

                                      >Te only thing by Heinlein I liked was _Glory Road_. Most of his still I
                                      >find, dull.Try his short stories from the 50's and 60's.

                                      >How can anyone write like Burroughs? When I try, it comes off with me
                                      >laughing at myself so I scap it and just think, What would I do in that
                                      >situation.I don't think I made a decision to write like Burroughs. What I
                                      >did was try and break down the pulp format and structure and then write to
                                      >that. I was pleased with the results.

                                      >So those 15 people who read my stuff didn't read Burroughs or a Burroughs
                                      >clone, they read about Burroughs but with a differnt vision.. though a
                                      >somewhat insane vision.

                                      Probably why there were only 15 people who read _Maiden on Barsoom_ and
                                      fewer who read _Escape from Pellucidar_ and none who read _Weir-Lu of
                                      Caspak_. And my Janice in Pellucidar stories had to be hidden from public
                                      view because of the adult themes.
                                      Don't count the readers. That way lies madness. I put a 100,000 words of
                                      sweat into Torakar, and maybe once a year someone writes in to tell me they
                                      liked it. I thank Bill for having it up on his site, and someday I want to
                                      take it and revamp it into a commercially saleable fantasy novel. But
                                      seriously, don't dwell.If you wanted to be read, write Star Wars fanfic, or
                                      Aliens fanfic. Or better yet, don't write fanfic at all. Clean it up and
                                      start sending it out to real publishers.

                                      >But then, I don't have the grasp of the nobilty of character and virginity
                                      >of the heros and heroines that was the staple of Burroughs. And neither do
                                      >many others. But I admit it.

                                      Well, I tried and ended up with a homicidal lesbian with a chip on her
                                      shoulder the size of the city of Helium and more emotional problems than a
                                      White Ape in a petting zoo.

                                      __________________________________________________________
                                      Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the
                                      boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to
                                      New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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                                    • Rick Johnson
                                      ... A lot of my stuff (not all but a lot ) contains unpolular themes of politics, sexuality, history and a vision of ERB/REH tht many find unpopular and
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jun 6, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        >>Where can I find the Janice in Pellucidar stories? I like adult themes mixed in with familiar themes.

                                        A lot of my stuff (not all but a lot<g>) contains unpolular themes of politics, sexuality, history and a vision of ERB/REH tht many find unpopular and uncomfortable.
                                        My portrayal of the Police (based on personal and professional experiences) and American Politics (based on my military career) makes me very unpopular with them too.
                                        Thus, although some of my writings are Rated-G (The Valley, The Bright-Eyed Doe of Pal-il-Don, etc) most others are unsuitable for teens, children, republicans, religious fundamentalists, law enforcement officials, aarvarks, Burroughs fanatics, flat-earthers, Sesame Street, and many others who possess a narrow view of life or possible have some literary taste in their literature..

                                        Note: I excluded flying saucer nuts becuse Crap Shoot is exploring the Flying Saucer mythos (Reptilians, Lyrans and Grays but not ERB) so they may find vindication there.. which shows how crazy they are and how insane I am.

                                        It is only because Bill Hillman is so.. liberal and accepting of all things Burroughs, that he doesn't ban me from his site.


                                        >>Several years ago I read Jane of the Jungle, which I think was posted on ERBzine, and it was a delightful updating of Tarzan.

                                        Are you referring to _The Diary of Miss Jane Porter_?
                                        I don't recall and _Jane of the Jungle_ and am unable to find that story.





                                        Rick Johnson,
                                        PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
                                        geocities.com/RikJohnson39
                                        "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined security will soon find that they have neither!"

                                        Please note: message attached

                                        From: Jean Elliott <Turbo-ducky@...>
                                        To: <barsoom@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Subject: RE: [barsoom] fan-fic list
                                        Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 20:17:13 -0400


                                        ____________________________________________________________
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                                      • Jean Elliott
                                        Hi Rick: Thanks for the rapid response to my inquiry. I appreciate it. Yes, it was The Diary of Miss Jane Porter. Only my two deluded brain cells could have
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jun 7, 2009
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Hi Rick:



                                          Thanks for the rapid response to my inquiry. I appreciate it.



                                          Yes, it was The Diary of Miss Jane Porter. Only my two deluded brain cells could have come up with Jane of the Jungle. I liked Diary very much. Great story and extremely well written.



                                          I see no problem with exploring adult themes, religion or politics in any work. It is always helpful to see that there is more than one viewpoint.



                                          " illegitimi non carborundum "





                                          To: barsoom@yahoogroups.com
                                          From: rikjohnson@...
                                          Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 15:41:18 +0000
                                          Subject: RE: [barsoom] fan-fic list







                                          >>Where can I find the Janice in Pellucidar stories? I like adult themes mixed in with familiar themes.

                                          A lot of my stuff (not all but a lot<g>) contains unpolular themes of politics, sexuality, history and a vision of ERB/REH tht many find unpopular and uncomfortable.
                                          My portrayal of the Police (based on personal and professional experiences) and American Politics (based on my military career) makes me very unpopular with them too.
                                          Thus, although some of my writings are Rated-G (The Valley, The Bright-Eyed Doe of Pal-il-Don, etc) most others are unsuitable for teens, children, republicans, religious fundamentalists, law enforcement officials, aarvarks, Burroughs fanatics, flat-earthers, Sesame Street, and many others who possess a narrow view of life or possible have some literary taste in their literature..

                                          Note: I excluded flying saucer nuts becuse Crap Shoot is exploring the Flying Saucer mythos (Reptilians, Lyrans and Grays but not ERB) so they may find vindication there.. which shows how crazy they are and how insane I am.

                                          It is only because Bill Hillman is so.. liberal and accepting of all things Burroughs, that he doesn't ban me from his site.

                                          >>Several years ago I read Jane of the Jungle, which I think was posted on ERBzine, and it was a delightful updating of Tarzan.

                                          Are you referring to _The Diary of Miss Jane Porter_?
                                          I don't recall and _Jane of the Jungle_ and am unable to find that story.

                                          Rick Johnson,
                                          PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
                                          geocities.com/RikJohnson39
                                          "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined security will soon find that they have neither!"

                                          Please note: message attached

                                          From: Jean Elliott <Turbo-ducky@...>
                                          To: <barsoom@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Subject: RE: [barsoom] fan-fic list
                                          Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 20:17:13 -0400

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