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The Fall of Barsoom

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  • steveseg@aol.com
    Kaor! I just read Den Valdron s The Fall of Barsoom, from Bill Hillman s Erb-zine and it was chilling. An intense and page-turning read, but oh so chilling.
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 28, 2007
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      Kaor!

      I just read Den Valdron's "The Fall of Barsoom," from Bill Hillman's Erb-zine and it was chilling. An intense and page-turning read, but oh so chilling.

      And not one anti-US crack <G>!

      Thanks Den, but I hope you're wrong about the future, or lack of a future, for Barsoom.

      Steve S.
      ________________________________________________________________________
      More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Den Valdron
      Thanks Steve. Arguably, the Barsoomians could well reverse their worlds decay. I think I wrote something somewhere on that. I went back and looked at the
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 28, 2007
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        Thanks Steve. Arguably, the Barsoomians could well
        reverse their worlds decay. I think I wrote something
        somewhere on that.

        I went back and looked at the Religions of Barsoom,
        and I couldn't find an anti-American crack. Maybe
        some anti-bible myth stuff, alleging that the flood
        story was stolen and that Jehovah was originally part
        of a polytheistic set, but that's it.

        The Opar history arguably could be seen as containing
        anti-American cracks. On the other hand, Opar's two
        major themes seemed to resonate strongly with aspects
        of the American experience. As I reconstructed Opar's
        history, segregation was critical to establishing
        races, and if you're going to talk about that its
        impossible not to reference America's experiences with
        segregation. The other part of it was that Opar
        trapped itself in paranoia and defensiveness in an
        Imperial adventure gone wrong, certainly a cautionary
        note for the American adventure with Al Quaeda and
        Iraq.


        --- steveseg@... wrote:

        > Kaor!
        >
        > I just read Den Valdron's "The Fall of Barsoom,"
        > from Bill Hillman's Erb-zine and it was chilling. An
        > intense and page-turning read, but oh so chilling.
        >
        > And not one anti-US crack <G>!
        >
        > Thanks Den, but I hope you're wrong about the
        > future, or lack of a future, for Barsoom.
        >
        > Steve S.
        >
        ________________________________________________________________________
        > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL
        > Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
        > removed]
        >
        >



        Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com
      • steveseg@aol.com
        Den said: I went back and looked at the Religions of Barsoom, and I couldn t find an anti-American crack. Hi Den, I believe it had to do with America in Iraq.
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 28, 2007
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          Den said:

          I went back and looked at the Religions of Barsoom,
          and I couldn't find an anti-American crack.

          Hi Den,

          I believe it had to do with America in Iraq. I don't have the exact quote...

          Steve S.

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Den Valdron <dgvaldron@...>
          To: barsoom@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 11:15 am
          Subject: Re: [barsoom] The Fall of Barsoom






          Thanks Steve. Arguably, the Barsoomians could well
          reverse their worlds decay. I think I wrote something
          somewhere on that.

          I went back and looked at the Religions of Barsoom,
          and I couldn't find an anti-American crack. Maybe
          some anti-bible myth stuff, alleging that the flood
          story was stolen and that Jehovah was originally part
          of a polytheistic set, but that's it.

          The Opar history arguably could be seen as containing
          anti-American cracks. On the other hand, Opar's two
          major themes seemed to resonate strongly with aspects
          of the American experience. As I reconstructed Opar's
          history, segregation was critical to establishing
          races, and if you're going to talk about that its
          impossible not to reference America's experiences with
          segregation. The other part of it was that Opar
          trapped itself in paranoia and defensiveness in an
          Imperial adventure gone wrong, certainly a cautionary
          note for the American adventure with Al Quaeda and
          Iraq.

          --- steveseg@... wrote:

          > Kaor!
          >
          > I just read Den Valdron's "The Fall of Barsoom,"
          > from Bill Hillman's Erb-zine and it was chilling. An
          > intense and page-turning read, but oh so chilling.
          >
          > And not one anti-US crack <G>!
          >
          > Thanks Den, but I hope you're wrong about the
          > future, or lack of a future, for Barsoom.
          >
          > Steve S.
          >
          __________________________________________________________
          > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL
          > Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been
          > removed]
          >
          >

          Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com




          ________________________________________________________________________
          More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Den Valdron
          Ahh, then you re probably thinking of the Hidden History of Opar. Here s what might be the offending passages: * * * * * * Opar’s culture became even more
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 28, 2007
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            Ahh, then you're probably thinking of the Hidden
            History of Opar. Here's what might be the offending
            passages:

            * * * * * *

            Opar’s culture became even more conservative and
            rigid. The subspecies were kept separate by rigid
            caste systems, and brutal pecking orders. Penalties
            for crossing the lines had to be made as brutal as
            possible, even lethal. Castration, mutilation, human
            sacrifice became even more the order of the day.
            This was what was necessary to keep the newly
            established races from mixing.

            Even in modern times, these were the techniques.
            ***Look at the history of American racism. American
            blacks were subject to a brutal caste system in the
            era of slavery. They were subject to torture,
            mutilation, slavery and systematic degradation.
            Occasionally some revisionist comes up with the notion
            that black slaves were content with their lot - not
            true. Every slave owner slept with a pistol under
            their pillow, they lived in perpetual fear of slave
            rebellions, they used extreme violence to maintain
            order and despite or because of this the underground
            railroad did booming business. Running away, trying
            to escape to freedom was such an endemic or epidemic
            fact of slavery that southern doctors described it as
            a medical condition ‘drapsomania’, and southern
            lawmakers forced through horrendous punishments for
            those who harboured escaped slaves.***

            ***In the post-slavery era, the American South
            enforced ‘racial purity’ through an insane system of
            segregation. Whites and blacks could not sit in the
            same railway cars, they could not drink from the same
            fountains, go to the same bathrooms, attend the same
            schools or be treated in the same hospitals. Blacks
            were forbidden from sections of buses and movie
            theatres, they were excluded from restaurants, in some
            towns they couldn’t even buy stamps from the same post
            office window. Laws prohibited marriage between
            blacks and whites, as well as any form of sex. And
            if the laws weren’t enough, there was an omnipresent
            thread of violence, blacks were lynched, beaten,
            brutalized, their property stolen or vandalized.
            Anti-Black race riots were not uncommon, and resembled
            the anti-jewish pogroms of eastern Europe. Entire
            black towns and neighborhoods were wiped out from time
            to time, simply erased from the map, with victims
            interred in unmarked mass graves. The Jim Crow era
            from 1870 to 1970 was nothing more or less than a
            century long campaign of terrorism against American
            blacks more systematic and more diabolical than
            anything Osama Bin Laden could imagine.***

            ***How insane was the American south in pursuit of its
            lunatic policy? Southern libraries in the 1950s went
            so far as to ban a children’s picture book called ‘The
            Bunny Rabbits Wedding’ because the drawings featured
            white and brown rabbits (as rabbits are wont to be).
            This was interpreted as advocating interracial sex.
            ***

            ***Not that the American north or center or west was
            much better. Many of these places were extremely
            intolerant of blacks. Ever hear of ‘sundown towns’,
            basically, these were towns throughout the United
            States where if you were black and still there when
            the sun went down... Well, if you were lucky, you
            were taken to jail. If you weren’t... Even into the
            70s and 80s, many of these towns and suburbs
            maintained their white only character with leases or
            covenants prohibiting the sale of land to blacks.***

            **The United States is only the nearest example.**
            South Africa built an equally toxic evidence of
            physical and sexual repression with Apartheid. Many
            Latin American states have dealt with the large native
            and mixed blood populations in brutal ways. The
            Indian subcontinent accommodated the waves of
            different races of conquerers by evolving a brutal and
            repressive caste system.


            * * * * * *

            If you want to prevent people from mixing, if you want
            to reduce the possibility of messy mongrels and
            hybrids, then you have to be strict and cruel. You
            have to separate people culturally and socially by any
            and every means possible, to the point where they
            don’t drink together, eat together, or socialize. You
            have to build every barrier possible. You have to
            bring religion into it to have the gods forbid it.
            You have to make them hate and despise each other.
            And still they’ll sneak off into the bushes together,
            so you have to punish, hurt, maim and kill, so that
            everyone gets the message.

            ***So it was in the Jim Crow South. And despite all
            that insane policing, in spite of all that hideous
            cruelty, centuries of religious and social
            proscription, slavery, segregation and lynching... A
            third of white Americans have black ancestors, and
            ninety per cent of black Americans have white
            ancestors.***

            So it was in the even more savage and warlike society
            of Opar. A brutal and tyrannical city state, in order
            to perpetuate and maintain its creation, had to become
            even more brutal, more tyrannical, more toxic and
            insane. **Opar made the repression of Jim Crow look
            like kid’s stuff.** These were serious people, doing
            seriously horrible things. **Horrific things were
            necessary on a scale more ferocious and more enduring
            than anything the Jim Crow south might have imagined.
            The vileness and terror of American slavery and
            segregation,** is, at its worst, merely a hint of what
            Opar had to become to create its hybrid warriors.




            * * * * * *

            This is simple human nature. If something worked or
            seemed to work in the past, then the instinctive human
            approach is to do it, to keep doing it, to do it more
            and harder. Of course, everything has its laws of
            diminishing return, every strategy runs its course.
            But humans, being what they are, if something stops
            working, or stops working as well, then the impulse is
            to redouble our efforts. After all, it worked in the
            past, so it will work again, all we have to do is try
            harder, do it more, spend more, go longer. Human
            nature is what throws good money after bad. Human
            nature is all about digging ourselves deeper into a
            hole in the hopes of seeing light at the end of the
            tunnel.

            ***Human nature is what keeps America in Iraq, and
            it’s the reason why, with no rivals left on the
            planet, the United States continues with a runaway
            military buildup which is now responsible for more
            than half the world’s military expenditures.***

            And human nature points the way to the direction that
            Opar’s society would develop.



            * * * * * *

            "Look at it this way. There is only so much
            manpower, so many man-hours available in a population.
            People can’t work 27 hours in a day. A society has
            needs. It needs potters and weavers, it needs
            bricklayers, farmers, architects, engineers, soldiers,
            policemen, bakers, rulers, craftsmen, philosophers,
            etc. And how much of each, and in what proportions
            it has of each depends on the importance that it
            places on each.

            **Well, the United States has decided that it’s a lot
            more important to spend money on fighter jets than on
            elementary schools, that soldiers are more important
            than teachers.** That’s a defensible choice, a
            justifiable one, but bottom line is a choice. So to
            with Opar. But where the United States is a democracy
            and its choices are subject to public approval, Opar
            was a fairly deranged tyranny. It was a tyranny build
            on segregated races of slave soldiers. What’s it
            going to do?"

            * * * * * *

            Are these comments unfair or anti-American? I didn't
            think so. I was trying to make Opar's choices, as
            horrific as they might seem, rational in the light of
            our own society.

            It's one thing to say that the Oparians were bugfuck
            crazy mofos.

            But I think its more interesting to think of the
            Oparians as people not unlike ourselves who faced
            similar choices to us, made similar decisions and by
            the logic of those decisions went down some very dark
            paths.

            Take the final 'crack'. The comment that the US has
            decided that fighter jets are more important than
            elementary schools. Compare the cost of a fighter jet
            to the cost of an elementary school. Compare the size
            of the military budget with the education budget.
            Compare those respective ratios with the ratios of
            other countries. I don't know that I've said anything
            which is untrue.

            Guns vs Butter is the classical way that economists
            describe it, the matter of social choices. Resources
            are finite. You can only ever do so much. More guns,
            less butter. Fewer guns, more butter.

            Now, I've said that this is a choice America has made.
            I've gone out of my way to say that this is a
            defensible choice, a justifiable one, and a democratic
            choice.

            In the context of the essay, I think its important to
            say that there was a choice here, and to show that
            America makes a similar choice. I think it would be
            less effective to say that the Oparians went crazy.
            It strikes me as more effective to say that Oparians
            found themselves making a choice that Americans could
            relate to, but whereas American choices are moderated
            by Democracy and Accountability, Oparians had no such
            restrictions, and might go much further overboard.



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          • Rick Johnson
            I put in 26 years US Air Force and even I make snide and nasty atacks on my own country regarding to Iraq. The fact that Den does too only means he has access
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 28, 2007
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              I put in 26 years US Air Force and even I make snide and nasty atacks on my own country regarding to Iraq.
              The fact that Den does too only means he has access to better news coverage of the farce than we do.


              Rick Johnson, PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
              geocities.com/DesertHenge
              geocities.com/RikJohnson_ERB
              geocities.com/RikJohnson_RLJ
              groups.yahoo.com/group/TucsonPaganPaddlers/

              Please note: message attached


              _____________________________________________________________
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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Den Valdron
              The harshest thing I said about Iraq is that it is human nature that keeps us there. C est la vieulx. By the way, I ran across a guy who had a copy of the
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 28, 2007
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                The harshest thing I said about Iraq is that it is
                human nature that keeps us there.

                C'est la vieulx. By the way, I ran across a guy who
                had a copy of the original edition of Otis Kline's
                Planet of Peril. The one with the missing chapters
                that got deleted from the 1960 edition.


                --- Rick Johnson <rikjohnson@...> wrote:

                > I put in 26 years US Air Force and even I make snide
                > and nasty atacks on my own country regarding to
                > Iraq.
                > The fact that Den does too only means he has access
                > to better news coverage of the farce than we do.
                >



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              • steveseg@aol.com
                Den said: Ahh, then you re probably thinking of the Hidden History of Opar. Here s what might be the offending passages: Nope. Religions of Barsoom.  Quote:
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 28, 2007
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                  Den said:





                  Ahh, then you're probably thinking of the Hidden
                  History of Opar. Here's what might be the offending
                  passages:





                  Nope. "Religions of Barsoom."

                   Quote: "More likely, however, whatever their faith or attachment to the Iss cult, most Orovars probably felt no strong need to promote the Iss cult against the Tur faiths.   Nothing is worse for business or better for rebellion than shitting on the local gods, as the US is learning in Iraq.  Hence, the Iss Cult spread across the planet, though likely subservient to Tur Cults."

                  Steve S.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Den Valdron <dgvaldron@...>
                  To: barsoom@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 1:41 pm
                  Subject: Re: [barsoom] The Fall of Barsoom






                  Ahh, then you're probably thinking of the Hidden
                  History of Opar. Here's what might be the offending
                  passages:

                  * * * * * *

                  Opar’s culture became even more conservative and
                  rigid. The subspecies were kept separate by rigid
                  caste systems, and brutal pecking orders. Penalties
                  for crossing the lines had to be made as brutal as
                  possible, even lethal. Castration, mutilation, human
                  sacrifice became even more the order of the day.
                  This was what was necessary to keep the newly
                  established races from mixing.

                  Even in modern times, these were the techniques.
                  ***Look at the history of American racism. American
                  blacks were subject to a brutal caste system in the
                  era of slavery. They were subject to torture,
                  mutilation, slavery and systematic degradation.
                  Occasionally some revisionist comes up with the notion
                  that black slaves were content with their lot - not
                  true. Every slave owner slept with a pistol under
                  their pillow, they lived in perpetual fear of slave
                  rebellions, they used extreme violence to maintain
                  order and despite or because of this the underground
                  railroad did booming business. Running away, trying
                  to escape to freedom was such an endemic or epidemic
                  fact of slavery that southern doctors described it as
                  a medical condition ‘drapsomania’, and southern
                  lawmakers forced through horrendous punishments for
                  those who harboured escaped slaves.***

                  ***In the post-slavery era, the American South
                  enforced ‘racial purity’ through an insane system of
                  segregation. Whites and blacks could not sit in the
                  same railway cars, they could not drink from the same
                  fountains, go to the same bathrooms, attend the same
                  schools or be treated in the same hospitals. Blacks
                  were forbidden from sections of buses and movie
                  theatres, they were excluded from restaurants, in some
                  towns they couldn’t even buy stamps from the same post
                  office window. Laws prohibited marriage between
                  blacks and whites, as well as any form of sex. And
                  if the laws weren’t enough, there was an omnipresent
                  thread of violence, blacks were lynched, beaten,
                  brutalized, their property stolen or vandalized.
                  Anti-Black race riots were not uncommon, and resembled
                  the anti-jewish pogroms of eastern Europe. Entire
                  black towns and neighborhoods were wiped out from time
                  to time, simply erased from the map, with victims
                  interred in unmarked mass graves. The Jim Crow era
                  from 1870 to 1970 was nothing more or less than a
                  century long campaign of terrorism against American
                  blacks more systematic and more diabolical than
                  anything Osama Bin Laden could imagine.***

                  ***How insane was the American south in pursuit of its
                  lunatic policy? Southern libraries in the 1950s went
                  so far as to ban a children’s picture book called ‘The
                  Bunny Rabbits Wedding’ because the drawings featured
                  white and brown rabbits (as rabbits are wont to be).
                  This was interpreted as advocating interracial sex.
                  ***

                  ***Not that the American north or center or west was
                  much better. Many of these places were extremely
                  intolerant of blacks. Ever hear of ‘sundown towns’,
                  basically, these were towns throughout the United
                  States where if you were black and still there when
                  the sun went down... Well, if you were lucky, you
                  were taken to jail. If you weren’t... Even into the
                  70s and 80s, many of these towns and suburbs
                  maintained their white only character with leases or
                  covenants prohibiting the sale of land to blacks.***

                  **The United States is only the nearest example.**
                  South Africa built an equally toxic evidence of
                  physical and sexual repression with Apartheid. Many
                  Latin American states have dealt with the large native
                  and mixed blood populations in brutal ways. The
                  Indian subcontinent accommodated the waves of
                  different races of conquerers by evolving a brutal and
                  repressive caste system.

                  * * * * * *

                  If you want to prevent people from mixing, if you want
                  to reduce the possibility of messy mongrels and
                  hybrids, then you have to be strict and cruel. You
                  have to separate people culturally and socially by any
                  and every means possible, to the point where they
                  don’t drink together, eat together, or socialize. You
                  have to build every barrier possible. You have to
                  bring religion into it to have the gods forbid it.
                  You have to make them hate and despise each other.
                  And still they’ll sneak off into the bushes together,
                  so you have to punish, hurt, maim and kill, so that
                  everyone gets the message.

                  ***So it was in the Jim Crow South. And despite all
                  that insane policing, in spite of all that hideous
                  cruelty, centuries of religious and social
                  proscription, slavery, segregation and lynching... A
                  third of white Americans have black ancestors, and
                  ninety per cent of black Americans have white
                  ancestors.***

                  So it was in the even more savage and warlike society
                  of Opar. A brutal and tyrannical city state, in order
                  to perpetuate and maintain its creation, had to become
                  even more brutal, more tyrannical, more toxic and
                  insane. **Opar made the repression of Jim Crow look
                  like kid’s stuff.** These were serious people, doing
                  seriously horrible things. **Horrific things were
                  necessary on a scale more ferocious and more enduring
                  than anything the Jim Crow south might have imagined.
                  The vileness and terror of American slavery and
                  segregation,** is, at its worst, merely a hint of what
                  Opar had to become to create its hybrid warriors.

                  * * * * * *

                  This is simple human nature. If something worked or
                  seemed to work in the past, then the instinctive human
                  approach is to do it, to keep doing it, to do it more
                  and harder. Of course, everything has its laws of
                  diminishing return, every strategy runs its course.
                  But humans, being what they are, if something stops
                  working, or stops working as well, then the impulse is
                  to redouble our efforts. After all, it worked in the
                  past, so it will work again, all we have to do is try
                  harder, do it more, spend more, go longer. Human
                  nature is what throws good money after bad. Human
                  nature is all about digging ourselves deeper into a
                  hole in the hopes of seeing light at the end of the
                  tunnel.

                  ***Human nature is what keeps America in Iraq, and
                  it’s the reason why, with no rivals left on the
                  planet, the United States continues with a runaway
                  military buildup which is now responsible for more
                  than half the world’s military expenditures.***

                  And human nature points the way to the direction that
                  Opar’s society would develop.

                  * * * * * *

                  "Look at it this way. There is only so much
                  manpower, so many man-hours available in a population.
                  People can’t work 27 hours in a day. A society has
                  needs. It needs potters and weavers, it needs
                  bricklayers, farmers, architects, engineers, soldiers,
                  policemen, bakers, rulers, craftsmen, philosophers,
                  etc. And how much of each, and in what proportions
                  it has of each depends on the importance that it
                  places on each.

                  **Well, the United States has decided that it’s a lot
                  more important to spend money on fighter jets than on
                  elementary schools, that soldiers are more important
                  than teachers.** That’s a defensible choice, a
                  justifiable one, but bottom line is a choice. So to
                  with Opar. But where the United States is a democracy
                  and its choices are subject to public approval, Opar
                  was a fairly deranged tyranny. It was a tyranny build
                  on segregated races of slave soldiers. What’s it
                  going to do?"

                  * * * * * *

                  Are these comments unfair or anti-American? I didn't
                  think so. I was trying to make Opar's choices, as
                  horrific as they might seem, rational in the light of
                  our own society.

                  It's one thing to say that the Oparians were bugfuck
                  crazy mofos.

                  But I think its more interesting to think of the
                  Oparians as people not unlike ourselves who faced
                  similar choices to us, made similar decisions and by
                  the logic of those decisions went down some very dark
                  paths.

                  Take the final 'crack'. The comment that the US has
                  decided that fighter jets are more important than
                  elementary schools. Compare the cost of a fighter jet
                  to the cost of an elementary school. Compare the size
                  of the military budget with the education budget.
                  Compare those respective ratios with the ratios of
                  other countries. I don't know that I've said anything
                  which is untrue.

                  Guns vs Butter is the classical way that economists
                  describe it, the matter of social choices. Resources
                  are finite. You can only ever do so much. More guns,
                  less butter. Fewer guns, more butter.

                  Now, I've said that this is a choice America has made.
                  I've gone out of my way to say that this is a
                  defensible choice, a justifiable one, and a democratic
                  choice.

                  In the context of the essay, I think its important to
                  say that there was a choice here, and to show that
                  America makes a similar choice. I think it would be
                  less effective to say that the Oparians went crazy.
                  It strikes me as more effective to say that Oparians
                  found themselves making a choice that Americans could
                  relate to, but whereas American choices are moderated
                  by Democracy and Accountability, Oparians had no such
                  restrictions, and might go much further overboard.

                  Connect with friends from any web browser - no download required. Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA at http://ca.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php




                  ________________________________________________________________________
                  More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Den Valdron
                  ... Ahhh, ok. Here we go, the full passage is: During the golden age, as the Orovar civilization spread north and came to dominate the polar ocean and three
                  Message 8 of 10 , Dec 28, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    > Nope. "Religions of Barsoom."
                    >
                    >  Quote: "More likely, however, whatever their faith
                    > or attachment to the Iss cult, most Orovars probably
                    > felt no strong need to promote the Iss cult against
                    > the Tur faiths.   Nothing is worse for business or
                    > better for rebellion than shitting on the local
                    > gods, as the US is learning in Iraq.  Hence, the
                    > Iss Cult spread across the planet, though likely
                    > subservient to Tur Cults."
                    >
                    > Steve S.

                    Ahhh, ok. Here we go, the full passage is:

                    "During the golden age, as the Orovar civilization
                    spread north and came to dominate the polar ocean and
                    three northen seas, its likely that the Iss Cult
                    spread right along with them, using the Orovars trade
                    and war as a vehicle for their own growth. It’s even
                    possible that the Therns may have become the
                    theological or theocratic wing of an Orovar Empire.
                    More likely, however, whatever their faith or
                    attachment to the Iss cult, most Orovars probably felt
                    no strong need to promote the Iss cult against the Tur
                    faiths. Nothing is worse for business or better for
                    rebellion than shitting on the local gods, as the US
                    is learning in Iraq. Hence, the Iss Cult spread
                    across the planet, though likely subservient to Tur
                    Cults."

                    Hmmmm. I'm not sure that I see that as an
                    Anti-American slam. Iraq is not going well, a big
                    part of that has been failure to really appreciate and
                    work with the local politics and values - 'shitting on
                    the local gods.' Bad for business, good for rebellion.


                    The United States isn't the first to make this sort of
                    mistake, the Nazi's made it in Eastern Europe,
                    Napoleon made it in Spain, the Brits made it in North
                    America. It's just the most recent, most public
                    example.

                    But with that sort of example, we can make a
                    reasonable guess that the for the Orovar empire to
                    spread, the Iss faith wouldn't be taking a hard line.





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                  • jhuckenp@aol.com
                    ... I don t think they re that rare. The first edition is A. C. McClurg, and it was reprinted by G&D. I got my copy (McClurg) from Jim Van Hise several
                    Message 9 of 10 , Dec 28, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      In a message dated 28/12/07 13:48:03, dgvaldron@... writes:

                      > I ran across a guy who had a copy of the original edition of Otis Kline's
                      > Planet of Peril.
                      >
                      I don't think they're that rare. The first edition is A. C. McClurg, and it
                      was reprinted by G&D. I got my copy (McClurg) from Jim Van Hise several
                      years ago.

                      AQPorter



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                      (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Den Valdron
                      They re probably not that rare, but most editions that we see are the edited 1960 versions. I was still impressed. ...
                      Message 10 of 10 , Dec 28, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        They're probably not that rare, but most editions that
                        we see are the edited 1960 versions. I was still
                        impressed.



                        --- jh
                        uckenp@... wrote:

                        >
                        > In a message dated 28/12/07 13:48:03,
                        > dgvaldron@... writes:
                        >
                        > > I ran across a guy who had a copy of the original
                        > edition of Otis Kline's
                        > > Planet of Peril.
                        > >
                        > I don't think they're that rare. The first edition
                        > is A. C. McClurg, and it
                        > was reprinted by G&D. I got my copy (McClurg) from
                        > Jim Van Hise several
                        > years ago.
                        >
                        > AQPorter
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > **************************************
                        > See AOL's top rated recipes
                        >
                        (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                        > removed]
                        >
                        >



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