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Fanfic on the Internet (Den Valdron strikes again)

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  • ekman@lysator.liu.se
    In the latest issue of ERBzine, Den writes another fanfic review (a good one, at that) and, as an aside, makes the following statement: I just googled Barsoom
    Message 1 of 22 , Sep 21, 2007
      In the latest issue of ERBzine, Den writes another fanfic review (a good
      one, at that) and, as an aside, makes the following statement:

      "I just googled Barsoom fanfics and I got 763 hits. There might be some
      redundancy, but then again, a lot of these hits host multiple fanfics.
      So potentially, there’s about 5000 Barsoom fanfics out there, give or take
      a thousand, available for free at the stroke of a few keys, no waiting
      required."

      Pardon me, but no chance! I repeated that same search and came up with 824
      hits. The first page had the expected hits (ERBlist; ERBzine; Panthan
      Press) and one surprise, in the form of two very short pieces barely worth
      the effort (though if you do want to make it:
      http://merfilly.livejournal.com/485987.html).

      I checked the first 100 hits, and the rest of the pages gave all of the
      following:

      - One story that I already knew about ("A Warrior Maid of Lawndale" at
      http://www.outpost-daria.com/fanfic/a_warrior_maid_of_lawndale.html).

      - One more story that I did not know about ("John Carter of Hogwarts" at
      http://ap-aelfwine.livejournal.com/49875.html).

      - One reference to a story I did not know about ("Tarzan and the Pirates
      of Mars" by David Myers, does anyone know anything about it?).

      - Lots and lots and lots of TRASH. No more Barsoom fanfic, at any rate.

      I know that the above search misses some stuff, but probably not that
      much. Some hits are probably lower down, hidden away by all the trash. For
      instance, I never saw Rick Johnson's fanfics (many of which are at
      ERBlist.com anyway). Also, there is always the chance that I missed
      something good while scanning the results.

      However, I have to conclude the following: 5000 Barsoom fanfics on the
      Internet? Not on your life! 500 maybe, and that is stretching it a very
      long way. I would guess 200 is closer to a realistic number.

      As has often been the case before, I find that Den, while having many good
      ideas and intentions, is far too quick in drawing conclusions.

      Fredrik
    • Den Valdron
      Hmmm. Yeah, you re right. Lots of hits on google. Unfortunately, not so much actual fanfic, lots of redundancy, and the quality of what there is there is
      Message 2 of 22 , Sep 21, 2007
        Hmmm.

        Yeah, you're right. Lots of hits on google.
        Unfortunately, not so much actual fanfic, lots of
        redundancy, and the quality of what there is there is
        pretty all over the map. But then, that's the nature
        of fanfic, wildly uneven.

        Fred gets the Mighty Marvel No-Prize


        --- ekman@... wrote:

        > In the latest issue of ERBzine, Den writes another
        > fanfic review (a good
        > one, at that) and, as an aside, makes the following
        > statement:
        >
        > "I just googled Barsoom fanfics and I got 763 hits.
        > There might be some
        > redundancy, but then again, a lot of these hits host
        > multiple fanfics.
        > So potentially, there’s about 5000 Barsoom fanfics
        > out there, give or take
        > a thousand, available for free at the stroke of a
        > few keys, no waiting
        > required."
        >
        > Pardon me, but no chance! I repeated that same
        > search and came up with 824
        > hits. The first page had the expected hits (ERBlist;
        > ERBzine; Panthan
        > Press) and one surprise, in the form of two very
        > short pieces barely worth
        > the effort (though if you do want to make it:
        > http://merfilly.livejournal.com/485987.html).
        >
        > I checked the first 100 hits, and the rest of the
        > pages gave all of the
        > following:
        >
        > - One story that I already knew about ("A Warrior
        > Maid of Lawndale" at
        >
        http://www.outpost-daria.com/fanfic/a_warrior_maid_of_lawndale.html).
        >
        > - One more story that I did not know about ("John
        > Carter of Hogwarts" at
        > http://ap-aelfwine.livejournal.com/49875.html).
        >
        > - One reference to a story I did not know about
        > ("Tarzan and the Pirates
        > of Mars" by David Myers, does anyone know anything
        > about it?).
        >
        > - Lots and lots and lots of TRASH. No more Barsoom
        > fanfic, at any rate.
        >
        > I know that the above search misses some stuff, but
        > probably not that
        > much. Some hits are probably lower down, hidden away
        > by all the trash. For
        > instance, I never saw Rick Johnson's fanfics (many
        > of which are at
        > ERBlist.com anyway). Also, there is always the
        > chance that I missed
        > something good while scanning the results.
        >
        > However, I have to conclude the following: 5000
        > Barsoom fanfics on the
        > Internet? Not on your life! 500 maybe, and that is
        > stretching it a very
        > long way. I would guess 200 is closer to a realistic
        > number.
        >
        > As has often been the case before, I find that Den,
        > while having many good
        > ideas and intentions, is far too quick in drawing
        > conclusions.
        >
        > Fredrik
        >
        >
        >



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      • Den Valdron
        A random thought following up on Fredriks post, now that I m back on line again. Yes, it does seem that thousands of Barsoom or Burroughs fanfics is unlikely
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 24, 2007
          A random thought following up on Fredriks post, now
          that I'm back on line again.

          Yes, it does seem that thousands of Barsoom or
          Burroughs fanfics is unlikely and out of the question.
          The real number is more likely closer to a few
          hundred, and might take a bit of work to track down.

          Still, this isn't a limitation of the internet, but a
          sign that the sway of Barsoom, almost a century after
          initial publication, is quite limited. People are
          writing far more of and far more enthusiastically of
          Buffy and Harry Potter, Captain Kirk, etc. etc. than
          of the Barsoom franchise.

          What's the average age of people on this list? I
          don't think that we are a young bunch in any way shape
          or form. A lot of Barsoom/Burroughs fans are probably
          middle aged or older, take Tangor for example, he must
          be something close to eighty from the pictures I've
          seen. Even at that, we're probably a minority within
          our cohort, even among the SF fan cohort. We were
          getting into Tarzan and Barsoom while our peers were
          flashing on Star Trek and Star Wars.

          Make no mistake, we are the Fans that Time Forgot.
          The few, the loud and the cranky.

          I'm good with that.


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        • Rick Johnson
          I tend to agre with Den about the age thing. I became interested in Burroughs in High School inthe 1960 s and Introduced my daughter to the Master in the late
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 24, 2007
            I tend to agre with Den about the age thing.
            I became interested in Burroughs in High School inthe 1960's and Introduced my daughter to the Master in the late 1990's when she was in High school.

            BUT, although I started to draw maps (primitive really but based solely on the descriptions and directions given in the books) almost immediatly, I didn't start to write Fan-fic until... the late, very late 1990's.

            I wonder how long it will be before my kid begins to write?


            As for Star Trek/Star Wars.... well, their movies were far better done that the ERB films. "me tarzan you jane" and the cheap monsters in _Land that Time Forgot_ cannot compare to Han Solo zipping through the Asteroid belt.
            Plus every teenages girl in america has written her own erotic love story between her and Spock.


            Rick Johnson, PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
            geocities.com/DesertHenge
            geocities.com/RikJohnson_ERB
            geocities.com/RikJohnson_RLJ
            groups.yahoo.com/group/TucsonPaganPaddlers/

            Please note: message attached


            _____________________________________________________________
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          • Saroda Mara
            First, thanks to Den for coming up with that. I think it s pretty cool, actually. I think some of us are hoping that a Barsoom movie will bring us Out of
            Message 5 of 22 , Sep 24, 2007
              First, thanks to Den for coming up with that. I think it's pretty
              cool, actually.

              I think some of us are hoping that a Barsoom movie will bring us Out
              of Time's Abyss. I do know that I've gotten my brudder-in-law (just
              turned thirty) and my nephew (eighteen in March) into the stories. My
              youngest sister is now into Pellucidar, and she's read a few of
              Tarzan. She's considering Barsoom next.

              I'm starting to tell my younger nephew (just turned five) snippets of
              _Princess_, converted somewhat to kidspeak. At one point I told him,
              "A lot of people punched and stabbed and stuff in this story; don't
              let it bother you."

              Of course, it didn't bother the eighteen-year-old back when HE was
              five, which is when I told it to him.

              Maybe, just maybe, after the movie comes out, I will find that thing I
              have never found: a Barsoom/Sailor Moon crossover fanfic.
            • Den Valdron
              ... You never know. It s such a hit and miss thing. Personally, I m a bit skeptical that a movie will revive the Franchise, partly that s a feature of how
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 24, 2007
                > I think some of us are hoping that a Barsoom movie
                > will bring us Out
                > of Time's Abyss.
                >
                > Maybe, just maybe, after the movie comes out, I will
                > find that thing I
                > have never found: a Barsoom/Sailor Moon crossover
                > fanfic.


                You never know. It's such a hit and miss thing.
                Personally, I'm a bit skeptical that a movie will
                revive the Franchise, partly that's a feature of how
                movies work these days.

                I'm thinking of the two biggest fantasy movie series
                ever - Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings, and both of
                these movies, as successful as they were, were also
                based on current and live fantasy series. Say what you
                want about Tolkien, but Tolkien's work had become an
                institutional classic in fantasy, defining and
                redefining the genre entirely.

                On the other hand, the Chronicles of Narnia movie just
                seemed to fade right away, didn't it. Shwarzeneggers
                Conan the Barbarian, a brilliant movie in its own
                right (imagine taking an actor whose english was so
                jarringly impenetrable and turning that very lack of
                articulation into a brooding melancholy asset), didn't
                result in either a wave of popularity for the Conan
                genre. I don't think that Howard/Carter/DeCamp's
                stuff got a new lease on life.

                Philip Jose Farmer's Riverworld, Frank Herbert's Dune
                and even Ursula K. LeGuin's Earthsea have all been
                made into remarkably competent miniseries with high
                production values and a remarkable degree of fealty...
                and yet have had no impact per se.

                I suspect that a John Carter movie wouldn't amount to
                more than an 'event', eventually overrun by succeeding
                'events.'

                I suppose the question with John Carter and Barsoom is
                whether the Burroughs estate, or whoever is running it
                now, has the canniness to be able to try and exploit
                and maneuver the property into the kind of open ended
                multi-media franchise that Star Wars and Star Trek
                became.

                One thing is for sure. To do it, they'll have to go
                well beyond canon.

                And they'll have to market it in completely new ways.

                The one angle I can see that might make the difference
                is that the Barsoom stories are unapologetic
                male/female romances.

                Which means that if they do it right, they might be
                able to capture that huge market of women which is now
                fanatically reading about elves and vampires.

                But simply go for the same old demographic of young
                boys derring do, it'll fade without a ripple. There's
                too much going on for that demographic.


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              • Phil Normand
                I ve thought for years now that one way to spark a major revival of the JC/Barsoom franchise would be through the development of a 3-D computer game designed
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 24, 2007
                  I've thought for years now that one way to spark a major revival of
                  the JC/Barsoom franchise would be through the development of a 3-D
                  computer game designed around the books and the mythos.

                  There is a huge market there which I believe would love the idea of
                  exploring Barsoom with half-naked digital avatars wearing swords and
                  radium pistols. The possibilities would make written fan-fic a thing
                  of the past as players lived their own scenarios in a virtual world.

                  Of course, this is not a risk that ERB, Inc. would be willing to
                  take, but they might very well be convinced to license the rights to
                  a game developer -- if this hasn't already been done -- Pixar (or
                  whoever has the film rights now) probably has it in their contract as
                  an option. The developer would be taking the risk, monetarily, but if
                  I had any business sense I'd be pursuing it myself.

                  I'm surprised that the Conan franchise hasn't done it although it's
                  probably not all that different than the D&D games already out there.
                  But Barsoom would be a different matter. The possibility of playing
                  as a red man, black man, yellow man, green man, warrior princess,
                  Thern -- whatever. . . Start out in your private flyer and somewhere
                  along the line you crash land in some ancient city and almost get
                  killed by white apes or a passing band of Warhoons. . . Try to
                  deliver a message to John Carter in Helium and end up battling
                  Hormads in the Toonolian Marsh. . . Every one of the books becomes a
                  scenario with side trips and various endings.

                  With the books already available, and needing so many gaps to be
                  filled, it becomes an activity that goes way beyond the tedious (for
                  the majority of today's teenagers) process of actually reading and
                  imagining. But because it has to refer back to the books, who know?
                  reading may happen in spite of it all!

                  noldo


                  On Sep 24, 2007, at 11:50 AM, Den Valdron wrote:

                  > I suppose the question with John Carter and Barsoom is
                  > whether the Burroughs estate, or whoever is running it
                  > now, has the canniness to be able to try and exploit
                  > and maneuver the property into the kind of open ended
                  > multi-media franchise that Star Wars and Star Trek
                  > became.

                  Phil Normand
                  phil@...
                  http://www.recoverings.com

                  Replica dust jackets for the collector





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Den Valdron
                  ... At least among the computer game set. But there we are basically selling Barsoom as a setting. A lot of computer games are invested in developing
                  Message 8 of 22 , Sep 24, 2007
                    > I've thought for years now that one way to spark a
                    > major revival of
                    > the JC/Barsoom franchise would be through the
                    > development of a 3-D
                    > computer game designed around the books and the
                    > mythos.

                    At least among the computer game set. But there we
                    are basically selling Barsoom as a setting. A lot of
                    computer games are invested in developing elaborate
                    settings and worlds - Halo, Final Fantasy, Resident
                    Evil, etc.

                    Essentially, right now, Barsoom as just another alien
                    landscape is fun, but I don't think it's compelling.

                    One of the things we have to remember about Barsoom in
                    its original incarnation is that Burroughs was tapping
                    into some very potent social/cultural images. Mars
                    and Venus had been neatly folded into a kind of
                    Darwinian cultural mythology of life cycles. Mars had
                    long been a romantic world, the speculative abode of
                    life, the canals a subject of speculation. In short,
                    it was a powerful psychic landscape as alluring as the
                    Wild West, the Mysterious Orient, the Exotic Indies,
                    Darkest Africa, etc. It was a landscape waiting to be
                    mapped.

                    And then, to add to mythic power and significance,
                    Burroughs drew strongly onto two other significant
                    sources of mythic power. The Green Men were clearly
                    based on American Indians, as in a different sense,
                    were the red men. And the whole environment drew
                    heavily on the exoticism and romance of the Arabian
                    nights.

                    The result was heavy mojo, an influential and
                    compelling vision that literally defined much of Mars
                    for everyone else.

                    Now, all these landscapes are abandoned. Africa is
                    not a place of darkness and mystery, full of exotic
                    lost lands and savage beasts... it's a squabbling mess
                    of ghetto cities, civil wars, tinpot dictators and
                    decaying states. The Orient is no longer inscrutable,
                    but the land of salarymen and business competitors.
                    The Wild West is overrun by overweight rednecks, and
                    Mars is a dead world of no particular symbolic
                    freight.

                    Barsoom is a marvellous landscape. But when he was
                    writing it, Burroughs was tapping into mythic stuff.
                    Now it's just another landscape.

                    It might make money as a landscape platform for a
                    game, but a lot of that will depend on the quality of
                    the game design and graphics.

                    I think the real challenge is finding the key to
                    making Barsoom relevant, more than relevant, mythic to
                    modern audiences.


                    > There is a huge market there which I believe would
                    > love the idea of
                    > exploring Barsoom with half-naked digital avatars
                    > wearing swords and
                    > radium pistols. The possibilities would make written
                    > fan-fic a thing
                    > of the past as players lived their own scenarios in
                    > a virtual world.

                    Yeah, but most of that market consists of old guys
                    like you and me who don't play video games.

                    The kids who play are omnivores.


                    > Of course, this is not a risk that ERB, Inc. would
                    > be willing to
                    > take, but they might very well be convinced to
                    > license the rights to
                    > a game developer -- if this hasn't already been done
                    > -- Pixar (or
                    > whoever has the film rights now) probably has it in
                    > their contract as
                    > an option. The developer would be taking the risk,
                    > monetarily, but if
                    > I had any business sense I'd be pursuing it myself.

                    I dunno. In the past, I don't think they needed
                    business sense. Just an ability to cash the cheques.
                    Truthfully, I don't see the Burroughs estate actually
                    doing anything in terms of marketing that Burroughs
                    himself wasn't already doing. I think that the big
                    revival in the 60's and 70's, had them making a ton of
                    money without actually doing anything, and when that
                    began to move past, well, they had no real plans.

                    But then, it's always a tough thing, isn't it.

                    > I'm surprised that the Conan franchise hasn't done
                    > it although it's
                    > probably not all that different than the D&D games
                    > already out there.

                    I think that the Conan franchise probably has a larger
                    problem in that it's out of step with the culture.
                    The sort of wanton tough guy/he man represented by
                    Mike Hammer or Conan really does seem out of fashion.
                    James Bond only hangs around as a lifestyle
                    caricature.


                    > But Barsoom would be a different matter. The
                    > possibility of playing
                    > as a red man, black man, yellow man, green man,
                    > warrior princess,
                    > Thern -- whatever. . . Start out in your private
                    > flyer and somewhere
                    > along the line you crash land in some ancient city
                    > and almost get
                    > killed by white apes or a passing band of Warhoons.
                    > . . Try to
                    > deliver a message to John Carter in Helium and end
                    > up battling
                    > Hormads in the Toonolian Marsh. . . Every one of the
                    > books becomes a
                    > scenario with side trips and various endings.
                    >
                    > With the books already available, and needing so
                    > many gaps to be
                    > filled, it becomes an activity that goes way beyond
                    > the tedious (for
                    > the majority of today's teenagers) process of
                    > actually reading and
                    > imagining. But because it has to refer back to the
                    > books, who know?
                    > reading may happen in spite of it all!
                    >
                    > noldo
                    >
                    >
                    > On Sep 24, 2007, at 11:50 AM, Den Valdron wrote:
                    >
                    > > I suppose the question with John Carter and
                    > Barsoom is
                    > > whether the Burroughs estate, or whoever is
                    > running it
                    > > now, has the canniness to be able to try and
                    > exploit
                    > > and maneuver the property into the kind of open
                    > ended
                    > > multi-media franchise that Star Wars and Star Trek
                    > > became.
                    >
                    > Phil Normand
                    > phil@...
                    > http://www.recoverings.com
                    >
                    > Replica dust jackets for the collector
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                    > removed]
                    >
                    >



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                  • Jeff Doten
                    Not that I m a real fan in any way, but Narnia has 2 sequels on the way. - Jeff ... Jeff Doten s Illustration Studio and the Fire Gods of Venus Project
                    Message 9 of 22 , Sep 24, 2007
                      Not that I'm a real fan in any way, but Narnia has 2 sequels on the
                      way. - Jeff




                      On Sep 24, 2007, at 11:50 AM, Den Valdron wrote:

                      > > I think some of us are hoping that a Barsoom movie
                      > > will bring us Out
                      > > of Time's Abyss.
                      > >
                      > > Maybe, just maybe, after the movie comes out, I will
                      > > find that thing I
                      > > have never found: a Barsoom/Sailor Moon crossover
                      > > fanfic.
                      >
                      > You never know. It's such a hit and miss thing.
                      > Personally, I'm a bit skeptical that a movie will
                      > revive the Franchise, partly that's a feature of how
                      > movies work these days.
                      >
                      > I'm thinking of the two biggest fantasy movie series
                      > ever - Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings, and both of
                      > these movies, as successful as they were, were also
                      > based on current and live fantasy series. Say what you
                      > want about Tolkien, but Tolkien's work had become an
                      > institutional classic in fantasy, defining and
                      > redefining the genre entirely.
                      >
                      > On the other hand, the Chronicles of Narnia movie just
                      > seemed to fade right away, didn't it. Shwarzeneggers
                      > Conan the Barbarian, a brilliant movie in its own
                      > right (imagine taking an actor whose english was so
                      > jarringly impenetrable and turning that very lack of
                      > articulation into a brooding melancholy asset), didn't
                      > result in either a wave of popularity for the Conan
                      > genre. I don't think that Howard/Carter/DeCamp's
                      > stuff got a new lease on life.
                      >
                      > Philip Jose Farmer's Riverworld, Frank Herbert's Dune
                      > and even Ursula K. LeGuin's Earthsea have all been
                      > made into remarkably competent miniseries with high
                      > production values and a remarkable degree of fealty...
                      > and yet have had no impact per se.
                      >
                      > I suspect that a John Carter movie wouldn't amount to
                      > more than an 'event', eventually overrun by succeeding
                      > 'events.'
                      >
                      > I suppose the question with John Carter and Barsoom is
                      > whether the Burroughs estate, or whoever is running it
                      > now, has the canniness to be able to try and exploit
                      > and maneuver the property into the kind of open ended
                      > multi-media franchise that Star Wars and Star Trek
                      > became.
                      >
                      > One thing is for sure. To do it, they'll have to go
                      > well beyond canon.
                      >
                      > And they'll have to market it in completely new ways.
                      >
                      > The one angle I can see that might make the difference
                      > is that the Barsoom stories are unapologetic
                      > male/female romances.
                      >
                      > Which means that if they do it right, they might be
                      > able to capture that huge market of women which is now
                      > fanatically reading about elves and vampires.
                      >
                      > But simply go for the same old demographic of young
                      > boys derring do, it'll fade without a ripple. There's
                      > too much going on for that demographic.
                      >
                      > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk
                      > email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://
                      > mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      Jeff Doten's Illustration Studio and the Fire Gods of Venus Project
                      http://www.jeffdoten.com http://jeffdotensvenusianblog.blogspot.com/



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Jeff Doten
                      ... Jeff Doten s Illustration Studio and the Fire Gods of Venus Project http://www.jeffdoten.com http://jeffdotensvenusianblog.blogspot.com/ [Non-text
                      Message 10 of 22 , Sep 24, 2007
                        > You totally nailed this -
                        >
                        >
                        > The one angle I can see that might make the difference
                        > is that the Barsoom stories are unapologetic
                        > male/female romances.
                        >
                        > Which means that if they do it right, they might be
                        > able to capture that huge market of women which is now
                        > fanatically reading about elves and vampires.
                        >
                        > But simply go for the same old demographic of young
                        > boys derring do, it'll fade without a ripple. There's
                        > too much going on for that demographic.
                        >
                        > .
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        Jeff Doten's Illustration Studio and the Fire Gods of Venus Project
                        http://www.jeffdoten.com http://jeffdotensvenusianblog.blogspot.com/



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Phil Normand
                        I don t know that I d call it brilliant -- though it was pretty good until the Thulsa Doom section. The music was very strong too. noldo ... Phil Normand
                        Message 11 of 22 , Sep 24, 2007
                          I don't know that I'd call it "brilliant" -- though it was pretty
                          good until the Thulsa Doom section. The music was very strong too.

                          noldo

                          On Sep 24, 2007, at 11:50 AM, Den Valdron wrote:

                          > Conan the Barbarian, a brilliant movie in its own
                          > right

                          Phil Normand
                          phil@...
                          http://www.recoverings.com

                          Replica dust jackets for the collector





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Den Valdron
                          True enough, but that s as much because they bought the whole property. ... Make free worldwide PC-to-PC calls. Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger at
                          Message 12 of 22 , Sep 24, 2007
                            True enough, but that's as much because they bought
                            the whole property.


                            --- Jeff Doten <jeffdnt@...> wrote:

                            > Not that I'm a real fan in any way, but Narnia has
                            > 2 sequels on the
                            > way. - Jeff
                            >



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                          • Den Valdron
                            http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=narnia.htm Yikes! ... Get news delivered with the All new Yahoo! Mail. Enjoy RSS feeds right on your Mail page. Start
                            Message 13 of 22 , Sep 24, 2007
                              http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=narnia.htm

                              Yikes!


                              --- Jeff Doten <jeffdnt@...> wrote:

                              > Not that I'm a real fan in any way, but Narnia has
                              > 2 sequels on the
                              > way. - Jeff
                              >



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                            • jhuckenp@aol.com
                              ... At the moment I have 470 pastiches (all series, Tarzan, Mars, Pellucidar, etc.) listed in the next Pocket Checklist, but this is constantly expanding. And
                              Message 14 of 22 , Sep 27, 2007
                                In a message dated 24/9/07 11:52:00, dgvaldron@... writes:

                                > Yes, it does seem that thousands of Barsoom or
                                > Burroughs fanfics is unlikely and out of the question.
                                > The real number is more likely closer to a few
                                > hundred, and might take a bit of work to track down.
                                >
                                At the moment I have 470 pastiches (all series, Tarzan, Mars, Pellucidar,
                                etc.) listed in the next Pocket Checklist, but this is constantly expanding.
                                And it includes only the U. S. and Canada -- thus all of Barry Stubbersfield's
                                and Steve Nottingham's pastiches are excluded, as are the 48 unauthorized
                                Argentine Tarzans, the 6 German stories published by Neuer Tessloff Verlag, ICH
                                JANE, and the French Barsoom story that I have squirreled away somewhere.

                                My partial pastiche list that originally appeared in APA #69 -- still limited
                                to English-language pastiches -- is now up to 550 entries, of which 172 are
                                Barsoom pastiches.

                                AQPorter





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                              • Rick Johnson
                                So, where do we find these lists and do they also list where we can find the works? I tried to keep a list of the ones I have collected but keeping it up was
                                Message 15 of 22 , Sep 27, 2007
                                  So, where do we find these lists and do they also list where we can find the works?
                                  I tried to keep a list of the ones I have collected but keeping it up was so much trouble I gave up in favor of those who are better at this than men.

                                  I bought a comb binder and card stock so I could bind all the fan-fic for easy use. The shorter ones I just put in a 3-ring binder. But I am too lazy to keep a real list of what I have and need.



                                  >>At the moment I have 470 pastiches (all series, Tarzan, Mars, Pellucidar, etc.) listed in the next Pocket Checklist, but this is constantly expanding.
                                  >>And it includes only the U. S. and Canada -- thus all of Barry Stubbersfield's and Steve Nottingham's pastiches are excluded, as are the 48 unauthorized Argentine Tarzans, the 6 German stories published by Neuer Tessloff Verlag, ICH JANE, and the French Barsoom story that I have squirreled away somewhere.

                                  >>My partial pastiche list that originally appeared in APA #69 -- still limited to English-language pastiches -- is now up to 550 entries, of which 172 are Barsoom pastiches.



                                  Rick Johnson, PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
                                  geocities.com/DesertHenge
                                  geocities.com/RikJohnson_ERB
                                  geocities.com/RikJohnson_RLJ
                                  groups.yahoo.com/group/TucsonPaganPaddlers/

                                  Please note: message attached


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                                • ekman@lysator.liu.se
                                  ... But I imagine that paper format is still the dominant medium, though that is bound to change as more and more become available on-line. The original
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Sep 27, 2007
                                    On Thu, September 27, 2007 4:40 pm, jhuckenp@... said:

                                    > At the moment I have 470 pastiches (all series, Tarzan, Mars, Pellucidar,
                                    > etc.) listed in the next Pocket Checklist, but this is constantly
                                    > expanding.

                                    But I imagine that paper format is still the dominant medium, though that
                                    is bound to change as more and more become available on-line. The original
                                    question was how many Barsoom pastiches you can find on the Internet. I
                                    maintain that this is significantly below 200.

                                    > And it includes only the U. S. and Canada -- thus all of Barry
                                    > Stubbersfield's and Steve Nottingham's pastiches are excluded

                                    None of which are availiable on-line, as far as I know.

                                    I have been trying to get in contact with Steve Nottingham regarding his
                                    fanfic, by the way. Does anyone have an e-mail address for him?

                                    > ICH JANE

                                    Which is originally in Swedish with the title Jag, Jane. Good book, though
                                    not "fanfic" in the strictest sense of that term.

                                    > and the French Barsoom story that I have squirreled away somewhere.

                                    I did not know about a French story. Do you by any chance have the title
                                    and author available? (Could be a great opportunity to practice my lousy
                                    French.)

                                    Fredrik
                                  • jhuckenp@aol.com
                                    ... I ll try to track it down. Don t even remember when or where I last saw it. My French is nonexistent, so I have no idea what it s about. AQPorter
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Sep 27, 2007
                                      In a message dated 27/9/07 10:44:41, ekman@... writes:

                                      > I did not know about a French story. Do you by any chance have the title
                                      > and author available? (Could be a great opportunity to practice my lousy
                                      > French.)
                                      >
                                      I'll try to track it down. Don't even remember when or where I last saw it.
                                      My French is nonexistent, so I have no idea what it's about.

                                      AQPorter



                                      **************************************
                                      See what's new at http://www.aol.com


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Phil Normand
                                      Nobody commented on this when I posted it originally, but now, with all the press about Halo 3 today, I thought it might be good for another look. Fan-ac is
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Sep 28, 2007
                                        Nobody commented on this when I posted it originally, but now, with
                                        all the press about Halo 3 today, I thought it might be good for
                                        another look. Fan-ac is all very well and good, but, really, you're
                                        just entertaining the choir. If you want more fun. . . You have to
                                        expand the franchise into new realms. Gaming is almost (if not more,
                                        in some demographics) as popular as movies.

                                        noldo


                                        On Sep 24, 2007, at 12:32 PM, Phil Normand wrote:

                                        > I've thought for years now that one way to spark a major revival of
                                        > the JC/Barsoom franchise would be through the development of a 3-D
                                        > computer game designed around the books and the mythos.
                                        >
                                        > There is a huge market there which I believe would love the idea of
                                        > exploring Barsoom with half-naked digital avatars wearing swords and
                                        > radium pistols. The possibilities would make written fan-fic a thing
                                        > of the past as players lived their own scenarios in a virtual world.
                                        >
                                        > Of course, this is not a risk that ERB, Inc. would be willing to
                                        > take, but they might very well be convinced to license the rights to
                                        > a game developer -- if this hasn't already been done -- Pixar (or
                                        > whoever has the film rights now) probably has it in their contract as
                                        > an option. The developer would be taking the risk, monetarily, but if
                                        > I had any business sense I'd be pursuing it myself.
                                        >
                                        > I'm surprised that the Conan franchise hasn't done it although it's
                                        > probably not all that different than the D&D games already out there.
                                        > But Barsoom would be a different matter. The possibility of playing
                                        > as a red man, black man, yellow man, green man, warrior princess,
                                        > Thern -- whatever. . . Start out in your private flyer and somewhere
                                        > along the line you crash land in some ancient city and almost get
                                        > killed by white apes or a passing band of Warhoons. . . Try to
                                        > deliver a message to John Carter in Helium and end up battling
                                        > Hormads in the Toonolian Marsh. . . Every one of the books becomes a
                                        > scenario with side trips and various endings.
                                        >
                                        > With the books already available, and needing so many gaps to be
                                        > filled, it becomes an activity that goes way beyond the tedious (for
                                        > the majority of today's teenagers) process of actually reading and
                                        > imagining. But because it has to refer back to the books, who know?
                                        > reading may happen in spite of it all!
                                        >
                                        > noldo

                                        > Phil Normand
                                        > phil@...
                                        > http://www.recoverings.com
                                        >
                                        > Replica dust jackets for the collector
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >




                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Den Valdron
                                        Actually, I think I did. My main point was that Barsoom was a terrific setting, but that settings were fairly de rigeur among video games. ... Be smarter than
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Sep 28, 2007
                                          Actually, I think I did. My main point was that
                                          Barsoom was a terrific setting, but that settings were
                                          fairly de rigeur among video games.


                                          --- Phil Normand <phil@...> wrote:

                                          > Nobody commented on this when I posted it
                                          > originally, but now, with
                                          > all the press about Halo 3 today, I thought it might
                                          > be good for
                                          > another look. Fan-ac is all very well and good, but,
                                          > really, you're
                                          > just entertaining the choir. If you want more fun. .
                                          > . You have to
                                          > expand the franchise into new realms. Gaming is
                                          > almost (if not more,
                                          > in some demographics) as popular as movies.
                                          >
                                          > noldo
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > On Sep 24, 2007, at 12:32 PM, Phil Normand wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > I've thought for years now that one way to spark a
                                          > major revival of
                                          > > the JC/Barsoom franchise would be through the
                                          > development of a 3-D
                                          > > computer game designed around the books and the
                                          > mythos.
                                          > >
                                          > > There is a huge market there which I believe would
                                          > love the idea of
                                          > > exploring Barsoom with half-naked digital avatars
                                          > wearing swords and
                                          > > radium pistols. The possibilities would make
                                          > written fan-fic a thing
                                          > > of the past as players lived their own scenarios
                                          > in a virtual world.
                                          > >
                                          > > Of course, this is not a risk that ERB, Inc. would
                                          > be willing to
                                          > > take, but they might very well be convinced to
                                          > license the rights to
                                          > > a game developer -- if this hasn't already been
                                          > done -- Pixar (or
                                          > > whoever has the film rights now) probably has it
                                          > in their contract as
                                          > > an option. The developer would be taking the risk,
                                          > monetarily, but if
                                          > > I had any business sense I'd be pursuing it
                                          > myself.
                                          > >
                                          > > I'm surprised that the Conan franchise hasn't done
                                          > it although it's
                                          > > probably not all that different than the D&D games
                                          > already out there.
                                          > > But Barsoom would be a different matter. The
                                          > possibility of playing
                                          > > as a red man, black man, yellow man, green man,
                                          > warrior princess,
                                          > > Thern -- whatever. . . Start out in your private
                                          > flyer and somewhere
                                          > > along the line you crash land in some ancient city
                                          > and almost get
                                          > > killed by white apes or a passing band of
                                          > Warhoons. . . Try to
                                          > > deliver a message to John Carter in Helium and end
                                          > up battling
                                          > > Hormads in the Toonolian Marsh. . . Every one of
                                          > the books becomes a
                                          > > scenario with side trips and various endings.
                                          > >
                                          > > With the books already available, and needing so
                                          > many gaps to be
                                          > > filled, it becomes an activity that goes way
                                          > beyond the tedious (for
                                          > > the majority of today's teenagers) process of
                                          > actually reading and
                                          > > imagining. But because it has to refer back to the
                                          > books, who know?
                                          > > reading may happen in spite of it all!
                                          > >
                                          > > noldo
                                          >
                                          > > Phil Normand
                                          > > phil@...
                                          > > http://www.recoverings.com
                                          > >
                                          > > Replica dust jackets for the collector
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                          > removed]
                                          >
                                          >



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                                        • Phil Normand
                                          Sorry Den, I never got that message in my in-box. I had to go online to find it at the YahooGroups site. . . I don t agree that Barsoom as a setting is not
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Sep 28, 2007
                                            Sorry Den, I never got that message in my in-box. I had to go online
                                            to find it at the YahooGroups site. . .

                                            I don't agree that Barsoom as a setting is not compelling. It's a
                                            matter of promotion.

                                            One of the very reasons that ERB fans get so deeply involved in the
                                            books is precisely because of the setting. There is so much left
                                            unsaid in the books that it is necessary to continue to imagine them
                                            after reading in order to extend them. That is the impetus behind fan-
                                            fic; the extension of the world into more narratives so that the
                                            world becomes fuller and richer. The fan is able to participate in
                                            the world by writing about it, making costumes, playing Jetan,
                                            creating maps, and by rationalizing deeper interpretations of the
                                            narrative that give it more cultural weight and depth.

                                            Burroughs's Mars (and Tarzan, for that matter) books were looked on
                                            (by the majority of readers) as wild flights of fancy in there time.
                                            They were just outrageous entertainments full of thrills with
                                            simplistic plots and simplistic characters. Fan readers (and there
                                            were many), compelled by whatever mojo you want to call it became
                                            adherents of the novels and enjoyed every adventure, they delighted
                                            to be back in that world and to know more about it. By the 50s most
                                            ERB fans were looked on as old-timers. The future was in space opera,
                                            Asimov, Heinlein, etc. The 60s revival showed that the ERB archetypes
                                            still had power, still could appeal even in a world where war was
                                            being revealed as a nightmare to kids who had grown up "playing army."

                                            The archetype of the savage tribe has not lost any of its power. The
                                            Arabian Nights are still exotic. Antiquity and romanticism are still
                                            gateways to adventure. It's really a matter of how they are presented
                                            and how fully they are delineated.

                                            I think you're asking too much to ask Barsoom to be relevant to our
                                            modern world. I don't believe it was relevant to 1920s or 1930s
                                            America. It was an escape from those things. Burroughs' comments on
                                            modern life of the era are pretty stale, and were when he wrote them.
                                            It was the worlds he created and the suggestions that there was more
                                            over the horizon, other races to be found in the ancient ruins that
                                            buoyed up the stories and made people go back for more.

                                            A video game that would allow participants to incarnate in Barsoom,
                                            explore, create new scenarios and play with the world could work just
                                            as well as a world where everything and everyone looks like a machine.

                                            You can't make something mythic, you tap into myths that are already
                                            there, beneath the surface.

                                            So, yes, Barsoom is a setting -- but that's where you start.

                                            noldo


                                            On Sep 28, 2007, at 1:57 PM, Den Valdron wrote:

                                            > Actually, I think I did. My main point was that
                                            > Barsoom was a terrific setting, but that settings were
                                            > fairly de rigeur among video games.



                                            Phil Normand
                                            phil@...
                                            http://www.recoverings.com

                                            Replica dust jackets for the collector





                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • ekman@lysator.liu.se
                                            ... Yes and no. Burroughs settings are fantastic, granted. But not by themselves. Whenever I read fan fiction or comic adaptations set on Barsoom, I find that
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Sep 29, 2007
                                              On Fri, September 28, 2007 11:00 pm, Phil Normand said:

                                              > One of the very reasons that ERB fans get so deeply involved in the
                                              > books is precisely because of the setting.

                                              Yes and no. Burroughs' settings are fantastic, granted. But not by
                                              themselves. Whenever I read fan fiction or comic adaptations set on
                                              Barsoom, I find that they either make Barsoom into something different
                                              than what Burroughs described, or it suddently feels entirely lifeless and
                                              unexciting.

                                              Burroughs was not a great world builder. He put up a hastily constructed
                                              and barely painted theatre scene. Then he used his fantastic storytelling
                                              abilities with such amazing skill that the deficiencies in the background
                                              blurred to something that appeared fantastic and alive.

                                              I am not looking forward to a big-budget movie or a modern 3d-animated
                                              computer game, because they would be unable to adapt Burroughs'
                                              storytelling, and therefore forced to make it come together by changing
                                              and tweaking the world into something I would not recognize and would not
                                              appreciate.

                                              Fredrik
                                            • Phil Normand
                                              Fredrik, I agree with you that Burroughs had the ability to sketch a world and fill it in with his storytelling. But it s difficult for me to separate the two.
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Sep 30, 2007
                                                Fredrik,

                                                I agree with you that Burroughs had the ability to sketch a world and
                                                fill it in with his storytelling. But it's difficult for me to
                                                separate the two. Story and setting work together.

                                                I guess it depends on whether what sticks in your mind is the
                                                meeting, loss and rescue of Dejah Thoris; life among the green men;
                                                the civilization of the red men; the friendship between Carthoris and
                                                Kar Komak; stalking banths; squealing thoats; sudden sunrise over an
                                                ancient city, etc. To me all those things are part and parcel of the
                                                same thing -- setting AND story working hand in hand.

                                                I can't agree that Burroughs was not a great world builder. If you
                                                mean did he nail down every plank and create a rationale that worked
                                                logically for every thing that exists on Barsoom -- no, he didn't do
                                                that. Thank ghod, it would be so boring. He wasn't that kind of
                                                writer, he wasn't a realist. He was a Romantic. He worked in broad
                                                strokes and dabs that, when you took it all in, looked like detail.
                                                Some things he described pretty clearly -- the one-man Zodangan flyer
                                                in PRINCESS is quite complete -- but such things as banths are
                                                described by their high-points and little else. As you say, they
                                                "blurred to something that appeared fantastic and alive." And that's
                                                what moves the tale along. He doesn't need to dwell on the details to
                                                get you caught up in the story. It becomes a story that you have to
                                                continually participate in, imagining as you go along. The reader
                                                becomes creator. Burroughs builds a world you want to get into -- at
                                                least some of us do.

                                                But you bring up another important point. Along with that reader/
                                                creator imagining, each of us fills in the blurriness with our own
                                                details. Even if you've been seeded by the images of St. John, J.C.
                                                Burroughs, Frazetta or Krenkel, you still imagine things a little
                                                differently. Vaguely, perhaps, but slightly more along the lines of
                                                your own experience, or your own vision. Bill Hillman has just put up
                                                some wonderful drawings by Tom Yeates that are dynamic, masterful,
                                                exciting, but blatantly inaccurate in some details in spite of
                                                specific references in the writings. He continually puts the green
                                                men's eyes on the front three-quarters of the head instead of on the
                                                side. He gives them claw-like fingernails. And the swords are not
                                                "needle-like" at all. As an illustrator I admire his composition, his
                                                handling of the brush and ink, the beautiful anatomy -- but as a fan,
                                                I grind my teeth at those inaccuracies that I know could be avoided.
                                                Though there may be aesthetic reasons for those decisions, they still
                                                rankle me.

                                                I'm not sure that a movie or video game would necessarily have to
                                                tweak Barsoom into something you wouldn't recognize, but, in the last
                                                analysis, the only definitive version of Barsoom for each reader is
                                                the version inside his own head.

                                                Phil


                                                On Sep 29, 2007, at 5:58 AM, ekman@... wrote:
                                                > Yes and no. Burroughs' settings are fantastic, granted. But not by
                                                > themselves. Whenever I read fan fiction or comic adaptations set on
                                                > Barsoom, I find that they either make Barsoom into something different
                                                > than what Burroughs described, or it suddently feels entirely
                                                > lifeless and
                                                > unexciting.
                                                >
                                                > Burroughs was not a great world builder. He put up a hastily
                                                > constructed
                                                > and barely painted theatre scene. Then he used his fantastic
                                                > storytelling
                                                > abilities with such amazing skill that the deficiencies in the
                                                > background
                                                > blurred to something that appeared fantastic and alive.
                                                >
                                                > I am not looking forward to a big-budget movie or a modern 3d-animated
                                                > computer game, because they would be unable to adapt Burroughs'
                                                > storytelling, and therefore forced to make it come together by
                                                > changing
                                                > and tweaking the world into something I would not recognize and
                                                > would not
                                                > appreciate.
                                                >
                                                > Fredrik








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