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Re: [barsoom] Sneak Peak, the Goddess of Ganymede

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  • Ghak
    ... He published them in 1966-67. He wrote the original version of GODDESS earlier. See: Ghak
    Message 1 of 25 , Jun 21, 2007
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      At 05:58 PM 6/21/2007, Den Valdron wrote:
      >Resnick was born in 1942. He wrote them in 1966-67.
      >That makes him twenty-four and twenty-five years old.

      He published them in 1966-67. He wrote the original version of GODDESS
      earlier. See:
      <http://www.erblist.com/erbmania/resnickfsom.html>

      Ghak
    • Den Valdron
      Resnick s a bit off with his own dates. Let s go through it a bit carefully. Resnick was born in 1942. The whole John Bloodstone/Tarzan on Mars shtick was
      Message 2 of 25 , Jun 21, 2007
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        Resnick's a bit off with his own dates. Let's go
        through it a bit carefully.

        Resnick was born in 1942.

        The whole John Bloodstone/Tarzan on Mars shtick was
        circa 1956. This makes Resnick fourteen to fifteen
        minimum, not twelve as he says.

        At or around that time - Fourteen to sixteen years of
        age, he writes his 'Tarzan and Forgotten Sea of Mars.'


        The manuscript is unfinished at about 40 pages. It's
        pretty certain Resnick is probably not typing, so its
        handwritten. That makes a word count difficult. But
        given that he's twelve, I think its reasonable to
        expect a maximum of 200 to 250 words per page, tops.
        Translates to 8000 to 10,000 words... tops!

        At some later point, Resnick is approached by or
        approaches a fanzine publisher. At this point, he
        dusts off his unfinished manuscript, dispenses with
        Tarzan entirely, and makes it a straight Barsoomian
        tale.

        The publication date on this, from multiple sources is
        1965, not the 1962 that Resnick gives. Resnick gives
        his age as around twelve in 1962 - he's actually
        twenty years old. And he's twenty-three years old in
        1965.

        So, 'Forgotten Sea of Mars' was published in 1965.
        This means that it was either written in 1965 or
        earlier.

        The publication was a fanzine, and it was a fairly
        regularly produced fanzine, in what was then a very
        live and active Burroughs fan community. We're not
        talking elaborate production costs, production
        schedules or anything like that.

        Resnick writes that he wrote the thing in response to
        a request or call from the publisher. He also says
        that he wrote it in eight days and one afternoon, not
        a substantial period of time. This means that the
        odds are that he wrote it in 1965, or no earlier than
        1964. I can't see a 'fanzine' story languishing
        around for two years or more before seeing
        publication. Often these things saw publication
        within weeks or months of being written - ie, very
        quickly.

        The 'Forgotten Sea of Mars' is described variously as
        a novella or a pamphlet. An internet description
        reports it as 26 pages, side stapled, 8&1/4 by 11
        pages, double column format, typewriter font (likely
        courier 12 point) with 8 full page illustrations.

        Eight full page illustrations leaves us with 18 pages
        of text. Assuming courier 12 point and pushing the
        margins, thats a maximum of 600 words to a page.
        Perhaps they had a fancy typewriter that used a cg
        font at 10 point, sitill no more than 900 words.

        Which means that Forgotten Sea of Mars probably ran no
        more than 10,000 to 15,000 words, and probably
        substantially less.

        The two Ganymede novels together ran over 300 pages
        collectively. About 304 pages actually. The average
        line per page was 38. The average words per line was
        10. That's 120,000 words.

        Some things to keep in mind. Resnick said that he
        based the Ganymede novels on Forgotten Seas of Mars,
        changing the characters and settings, but recycling
        plot elements.

        This means that he wrote the Ganymede novels *after*
        he had written Forgotten Seas. He could not have
        written them before or during.

        This means that the earliest dates for the Ganymede
        novels would have been 1964 or 65. Probably later.

        Given that Resnick was taking a 12,000 word story as
        his base, but turning two novels totalling 120,000
        words out, he was doing a lot more additions than
        simply recycling plot.

        The first publication of Goddess of Ganymede was in
        1967 in hardcover. Copyright notice indicates 1967.
        Paperback printing date was 1968. For Pursuit on
        Ganymede, the Copyright notice is 1968, and date of
        first printing is 1968.

        It is not clear that Pursuit on Ganymede had been
        completed in 1967. It may have been written as late as
        that year.

        This gives us the window of writing as sometime
        between 1964 at the earliest, and 1967 at the latest.

        Working backwards from Resnick's birthdate of 1942,
        this gives us an age of between 22 and 25. That's not
        bad at all.

        Resnick seems to be exagerating his youth
        consistently, when discussing the issue, to the point
        of distorting actual times and timelines.

        For whatever reason, he chooses to disparage both
        Burroughs and his early work. He's quite dismissive
        of Bloodstone's (ack!!!) Tarzan on Mars, although I've
        heard kinder things said of it, and I've read that
        even Ray Bradbury was favourably taken with it.

        My impression of Resnick is that he is a fellow who is
        not shy with his opinions, if you know what I mean.
        Even if he isn't quite solid on his facts.






        --- Ghak <svwadding@...> wrote:

        > At 05:58 PM 6/21/2007, Den Valdron wrote:
        > >Resnick was born in 1942. He wrote them in
        > 1966-67.
        > >That makes him twenty-four and twenty-five years
        > old.
        >
        > He published them in 1966-67. He wrote the original
        > version of GODDESS
        > earlier. See:
        > <http://www.erblist.com/erbmania/resnickfsom.html>
        >
        > Ghak
        >
        >



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      • Den Valdron
        Behind any legend there are bits of real fact and real people. One of the most enduring legends of ERB fandom is the Barsoomian pastiche written by a young
        Message 3 of 25 , Jun 21, 2007
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          "Behind any legend there are bits of real fact and
          real people. One of the most enduring "legends" of ERB
          fandom is the Barsoomian pastiche written by a young
          boy, Forgotten Sea of Mars. The legend continues to
          exist as there are few copies of this story available
          for ERB collectors."


          Yeah, truth is that it was as a high school student,
          not a young boy, that he took his first stab at
          'Forgotten Sea' and left it unfinished.

          Then as a young man in his twenties, not a young boy,
          he took an unfinished high school manuscript,
          substantially rewrote it, finished it - modified and
          revised to the extent that it was essentially a new
          work, and got it published in a fanzine.

          It's a remarkable enough achievement. But its not the
          work of a 'boy genius.' Resnick is both trying to
          feed his own legend and distance himself from it,
          while disparaging his early career.

          Well, whatever dude.





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        • Den Valdron
          I sold it to Don Grant in hardcover, then sold it and a sequel to Paperback Library in paperback, back in the late 1960s. They re pretty good Burroughs
          Message 4 of 25 , Jun 21, 2007
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            "I sold it to Don Grant in hardcover, then sold it and
            a sequel to Paperback Library in paperback, back in
            the late 1960s. They're pretty good Burroughs
            pastiches, but they're absolutely terrible Resnick
            books. I didn't write any science fiction all during
            the 1970s to give people time to forget. Then I came
            back to the field, writing things that were important
            to me rather than things that were important to
            Burroughs"

            Resnick here is not quite correct. After Pursuit on
            Ganymede, which clearly contemplated a sequel, Resnick
            published 'Redbeard' a post-apocalyptic Conan the
            barbarian riff.

            From his biography: "Mike labored anonymously but
            profitably from 1964 through 1976, selling more than
            200 novels, 300 short stories and 2,000 articles,
            almost all of them under pseudonyms, most of them in
            the "adult" field. He edited 7 different tabloid
            newspapers and a pair of men's magazines, as well."

            A long career in 'porn' is giving people time to
            forget, and he returns to SF with 'Galactica discovers
            Earth.' I dunno. Sounds fishy.

            I got nothing against Resnick. His writing these days
            isn't to my taste, but its all a matter of taste. I
            don't disparage his career and accomplishments. Good
            for him.

            Push come down to shove, I'd say that Resnick has
            written roughly forty novels more than I have, and won
            thirty or more awards than I have. So there you go.



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          • jhuckenp@aol.com
            ... Den -- The type in FORGOTTEN SEA OF MARS is definitely not 12 point; in fact it appears that it has been reduced by half. Eight full page illustrations
            Message 5 of 25 , Jun 21, 2007
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              In a message dated 21/6/07 21:05:59, dgvaldron@... writes:

              > The 'Forgotten Sea of Mars' is described variously as
              > a novella or a pamphlet. An internet description
              > reports it as 26 pages, side stapled, 8&1/4 by 11
              > pages, double column format, typewriter font (likely
              > courier 12 point) with 8 full page illustrations.
              >
              Den --

              The type in FORGOTTEN SEA OF MARS is definitely not 12 point; in fact it
              appears that it has been reduced by half.

              Eight full page illustrations leaves us with 18 pages
              of text. Assuming courier 12 point and pushing the
              margins, thats a maximum of 600 words to a page.
              Perhaps they had a fancy typewriter that used a cg
              font at 10 point, sitill no more than 900 words.

              Which means that Forgotten Sea of Mars probably ran no
              more than 10,000 to 15,000 words, and probably
              substantially less.

              The margins are almost nonexistent. I'd say you need to quadruple the
              estimated word count, about 40k words.

              AQPorter



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            • Den Valdron
              ... Hmmm. Interesting. You have a copy? Have you read it? Is it any good? What s the story/plot in three paragraphs or less? A six point typeface would be
              Message 6 of 25 , Jun 21, 2007
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                > The type in FORGOTTEN SEA OF MARS is definitely not
                > 12 point; in fact it
                > appears that it has been reduced by half.
                > The margins are almost nonexistent. I'd say you
                > need to quadruple the
                > estimated word count, about 40k words.
                >
                > AQPorter

                Hmmm. Interesting. You have a copy? Have you read
                it? Is it any good? What's the story/plot in three
                paragraphs or less?

                A six point typeface would be absolutely illegible.
                It simply can't be read. I can't reproduce it here,
                but you can probably do so at home on your word
                processor.

                I scoped it out. Eight point typeface is the smallest
                you can get and still be legible. Assuming quarter
                inch margins, you'd get maybe 2100 words per page on a
                Times Roman font or 1600 on a courier font. This
                gives a word count of between 28,000 and 38,000, which
                I'd think would be the absolute upper limit.

                At a nine point typeface, which is still damned tiny,
                and quarter inch margins, you'd run 1200 with courier,
                and 1700 with Times Roman. That gives a word count of
                21,000 to 28,000, speaking roughly.

                Quarter inch margins leave absolutely nothing. We're
                talking the mimeograph and xerox small press repro
                technology of the day. I don't think it could even
                reproduce six point font without smearing illegibly.
                And at a quarter inch margins, drift would leave your
                leading line of text off the page on some copies.

                More likely the margins are 1/3 inch, with at least an
                extra eight inch for side stapling, with perhaps a
                quarter inch or less column separation, which would
                mean that all the word counts I've given are probably
                one to two thousand words too high.

                However, if you could get 6 point times roman font in
                on a single column with quarter inch margins, you
                could get all the way to 4200 words per page. But at
                that text density and difficulty of resolution your
                eyes would start to bleed before you reached the end
                of the first page. Seriously.






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              • Ghak
                ... ... I printed out your message in six point Times New Roman and Courier New. With a good light source, I can read that at arm s length with just a
                Message 7 of 25 , Jun 22, 2007
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                  At 02:36 AM 6/22/2007, Den Valdron wrote:
                  >A six point typeface would be absolutely illegible. It simply can't be
                  >read. I can't reproduce it here, but you can probably do so at home on
                  >your word processor.
                  <snip>
                  >Quarter inch margins leave absolutely nothing. We're talking the
                  >mimeograph and xerox small press repro technology of the day. I don't
                  >think it could even reproduce six point font without smearing illegibly.
                  >And at a quarter inch margins, drift would leave your leading line of text
                  >off the page on some copies.

                  I printed out your message in six point Times New Roman and Courier
                  New. With a good light source, I can read that at arm's length with just a
                  little strain, but it's quite easy to read at half that distance. I
                  wouldn't expect it to mimeograph well, though.

                  Ghak
                • Den Valdron
                  Thanks Clark. Want to start bragging about your X-Ray and Heat vision too? ... Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jun 22, 2007
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                    Thanks Clark. Want to start bragging about your X-Ray
                    and Heat vision too?


                    --- Ghak <svwadding@...> wrote:

                    > At 02:36 AM 6/22/2007, Den Valdron wrote:
                    > >A six point typeface would be absolutely illegible.
                    > It simply can't be
                    > >read. I can't reproduce it here, but you can
                    > probably do so at home on
                    > >your word processor.
                    > <snip>
                    > >Quarter inch margins leave absolutely nothing.
                    > We're talking the
                    > >mimeograph and xerox small press repro technology
                    > of the day. I don't
                    > >think it could even reproduce six point font
                    > without smearing illegibly.
                    > >And at a quarter inch margins, drift would leave
                    > your leading line of text
                    > >off the page on some copies.
                    >
                    > I printed out your message in six point Times New
                    > Roman and Courier
                    > New. With a good light source, I can read that at
                    > arm's length with just a
                    > little strain, but it's quite easy to read at half
                    > that distance. I
                    > wouldn't expect it to mimeograph well, though.
                    >
                    > Ghak
                    >
                    >



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                  • jhuckenp@aol.com
                    ... Yes. ... Yes -- 42 years ago. ... One of the best, as I remember it. ... Need to re-read it & get back to you with a summary. AQPorter
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jun 22, 2007
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                      In a message dated 22/6/07 1:47:26, dgvaldron@... writes:


                      > You have a copy?
                      >
                      Yes.

                      > Have you read it?
                      >
                      Yes -- 42 years ago.

                      > Is it any good?
                      >
                      One of the best, as I remember it.

                      > What's the story/plot in three paragraphs or less?
                      >
                      Need to re-read it & get back to you with a summary.

                      AQPorter



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                    • Den Valdron
                      ... Well, hop to it my good man. I m sure everyone on the list is waiting for you with baited breath. Don t hold yourself to three paragraphs. Be smarter
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jun 22, 2007
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                        > > Is it any good?
                        > >
                        > One of the best, as I remember it.
                        >
                        > > What's the story/plot in three paragraphs or less?
                        > >
                        > Need to re-read it & get back to you with a summary.


                        Well, hop to it my good man. I'm sure everyone on the
                        list is waiting for you with baited breath. Don't
                        hold yourself to three paragraphs.


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                      • Saroda Mara
                        I m looking forward to it. It may or may not be any good, but hey, I ve read good and bad lemons, and it can t be any worse than a bad lemon. I printed out
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jun 22, 2007
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                          I'm looking forward to it. It may or may not be any good, but hey,
                          I've read good and bad lemons, and it can't be any worse than a bad lemon.

                          I printed out two pages from _A Princess of Mars_, one in Times New
                          Roman at 6 point and the other in Courier New at 6 point. I should
                          say that two pages at 6 point is a lot. In particular, all of Chapter
                          One: On the Arizona Hills fit on one page when done in TNR 6 point,
                          and most of Chapter Two: My Advent on Mars, fit on one page when done
                          in CN 6 point (up to and including the paragraph "My feat then was as
                          marvelous upon Mars as it would have been upon Earth, and from
                          desiring to annihilate me they suddenly looked upon me as a wonderful
                          discovery to be captured and exhibited among their fellows.").

                          Using Word Count, I find (after removing chapter titles or blank
                          spaces between chapters, so that it's all story) that I have 3,261
                          word on a page in TNR, and 2,341 in CN. From a distance (metre or so)
                          the CN appears fainter than the TNR.

                          I can't of course read either font at this distance. At a more
                          reasonable distance, and with good light, I can read it, but it isn't
                          easy. The CN is a little easier, but neither is something I'd
                          recommend. After a few paragraphs to assure myself that it could
                          indeed be done, I quit, because it was slow going and was bothering my
                          eyes (and remember, this is _A Princess of Mars_, which most of us
                          could almost recite blindfolded).

                          What this tells us about _Lost Sea_ I don't know, but there it is on
                          fonts and print size and such.

                          I've posted a copy of _Princess_ in 6 point Courier New in the FILES
                          section, if anybody wants to hurt their eyes with it.
                        • Saroda Mara
                          I forgot to say: my little experiment had the top, left, and right margins set to a quarter inch, and the bottom margin set to half an inch. When I tried to
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jun 22, 2007
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                            I forgot to say: my little experiment had the top, left, and right
                            margins set to a quarter inch, and the bottom margin set to half an
                            inch. When I tried to make it a quarter inch, it told me it couldn't
                            print that way. Also, my paragraph indent was set at 0.2" and my
                            between paragraph spacing was set to 2 point.
                          • Den Valdron
                            I m surprised that you can still see. Most normal humans would be lying on the floor in the grip of a migraine. At that kind of diminutive by the way, I m
                            Message 13 of 25 , Jun 22, 2007
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                              I'm surprised that you can still see. Most normal
                              humans would be lying on the floor in the grip of a
                              migraine.

                              At that kind of diminutive by the way, I'm really
                              skeptical that a 60's era small fanzine press could
                              have produced a legible copy.

                              Most legal fine print doesn't go below 8 or 9 point.


                              --- Saroda Mara <xenophile2002@...> wrote:

                              > I forgot to say: my little experiment had the top,
                              > left, and right
                              > margins set to a quarter inch, and the bottom margin
                              > set to half an
                              > inch. When I tried to make it a quarter inch, it
                              > told me it couldn't
                              > print that way. Also, my paragraph indent was set
                              > at 0.2" and my
                              > between paragraph spacing was set to 2 point.
                              >
                              >



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                            • Rick Johnson
                              with all this argument (not discussion) about how many pages and words and such, why not just ask around until you find a copy in someone s closet, scan it in
                              Message 14 of 25 , Jun 22, 2007
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                                with all this argument (not discussion) about how many pages and
                                words and such, why not just ask around until you find a copy in
                                someone's closet, scan it in with OCR and PDF and then do a word
                                count and measure it with a ruler.

                                That would give you everything from publication date to font-size to
                                word count to...


                                As for me, today I can read 10 point easily, 8 with effort and lots
                                of light but under that, I find a photocopier with blow-up featuer
                                helps a lot.
                                I read 12 point normally but prefer 14 by candlelight.
                                Of course, that is because I am getting old and need new glasses.

                                Can we assume that Resnick wrote the original story when young,
                                rewrote it later to publish, then used it as a base for another novel
                                of questionable literary value?

                                About the only thing the exact dates is worth is to determine
                                the 'veracity' or 'memory' of the writer.


                                Rick Johnson, PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
                                http://www.geocities.com/DesertHenge
                                http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_ERB
                                http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_RLJ


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