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Re: [barsoom] Sneak Peak, the Goddess of Ganymede

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  • Den Valdron
    Resnick was born in 1942. He wrote them in 1966-67. That makes him twenty-four and twenty-five years old. ... Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is
    Message 1 of 25 , Jun 21, 2007
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      Resnick was born in 1942. He wrote them in 1966-67.
      That makes him twenty-four and twenty-five years old.


      --- Ghak <svwadding@...> wrote:

      > At 04:42 PM 6/21/2007 -0400, Den Valdron wrote:
      > >Or perhaps despite laying the groundwork, Resnick
      > just
      > >didn't feel like writing it. Perhaps it had
      > simply
      > >done its job of helping him break into publishing,
      > and
      > >after that, as he matured as a writer, doing
      > >derivative Burroughs pastiches just didn't appeal
      > to
      > >him
      >
      > I found the Ganymede books at the 1998 WorldCon in
      > Baltimore. Mike
      > Resnick was there, and I got them autographed. He
      > said to remember
      > that he was only 19 years old when he wrote them.
      > So he does not
      > seem to have a high opinion of the books. I found
      > them to be fun to read.
      >
      > Ghak
      >
      >



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    • Ghak
      ... He published them in 1966-67. He wrote the original version of GODDESS earlier. See: Ghak
      Message 2 of 25 , Jun 21, 2007
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        At 05:58 PM 6/21/2007, Den Valdron wrote:
        >Resnick was born in 1942. He wrote them in 1966-67.
        >That makes him twenty-four and twenty-five years old.

        He published them in 1966-67. He wrote the original version of GODDESS
        earlier. See:
        <http://www.erblist.com/erbmania/resnickfsom.html>

        Ghak
      • Den Valdron
        Resnick s a bit off with his own dates. Let s go through it a bit carefully. Resnick was born in 1942. The whole John Bloodstone/Tarzan on Mars shtick was
        Message 3 of 25 , Jun 21, 2007
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          Resnick's a bit off with his own dates. Let's go
          through it a bit carefully.

          Resnick was born in 1942.

          The whole John Bloodstone/Tarzan on Mars shtick was
          circa 1956. This makes Resnick fourteen to fifteen
          minimum, not twelve as he says.

          At or around that time - Fourteen to sixteen years of
          age, he writes his 'Tarzan and Forgotten Sea of Mars.'


          The manuscript is unfinished at about 40 pages. It's
          pretty certain Resnick is probably not typing, so its
          handwritten. That makes a word count difficult. But
          given that he's twelve, I think its reasonable to
          expect a maximum of 200 to 250 words per page, tops.
          Translates to 8000 to 10,000 words... tops!

          At some later point, Resnick is approached by or
          approaches a fanzine publisher. At this point, he
          dusts off his unfinished manuscript, dispenses with
          Tarzan entirely, and makes it a straight Barsoomian
          tale.

          The publication date on this, from multiple sources is
          1965, not the 1962 that Resnick gives. Resnick gives
          his age as around twelve in 1962 - he's actually
          twenty years old. And he's twenty-three years old in
          1965.

          So, 'Forgotten Sea of Mars' was published in 1965.
          This means that it was either written in 1965 or
          earlier.

          The publication was a fanzine, and it was a fairly
          regularly produced fanzine, in what was then a very
          live and active Burroughs fan community. We're not
          talking elaborate production costs, production
          schedules or anything like that.

          Resnick writes that he wrote the thing in response to
          a request or call from the publisher. He also says
          that he wrote it in eight days and one afternoon, not
          a substantial period of time. This means that the
          odds are that he wrote it in 1965, or no earlier than
          1964. I can't see a 'fanzine' story languishing
          around for two years or more before seeing
          publication. Often these things saw publication
          within weeks or months of being written - ie, very
          quickly.

          The 'Forgotten Sea of Mars' is described variously as
          a novella or a pamphlet. An internet description
          reports it as 26 pages, side stapled, 8&1/4 by 11
          pages, double column format, typewriter font (likely
          courier 12 point) with 8 full page illustrations.

          Eight full page illustrations leaves us with 18 pages
          of text. Assuming courier 12 point and pushing the
          margins, thats a maximum of 600 words to a page.
          Perhaps they had a fancy typewriter that used a cg
          font at 10 point, sitill no more than 900 words.

          Which means that Forgotten Sea of Mars probably ran no
          more than 10,000 to 15,000 words, and probably
          substantially less.

          The two Ganymede novels together ran over 300 pages
          collectively. About 304 pages actually. The average
          line per page was 38. The average words per line was
          10. That's 120,000 words.

          Some things to keep in mind. Resnick said that he
          based the Ganymede novels on Forgotten Seas of Mars,
          changing the characters and settings, but recycling
          plot elements.

          This means that he wrote the Ganymede novels *after*
          he had written Forgotten Seas. He could not have
          written them before or during.

          This means that the earliest dates for the Ganymede
          novels would have been 1964 or 65. Probably later.

          Given that Resnick was taking a 12,000 word story as
          his base, but turning two novels totalling 120,000
          words out, he was doing a lot more additions than
          simply recycling plot.

          The first publication of Goddess of Ganymede was in
          1967 in hardcover. Copyright notice indicates 1967.
          Paperback printing date was 1968. For Pursuit on
          Ganymede, the Copyright notice is 1968, and date of
          first printing is 1968.

          It is not clear that Pursuit on Ganymede had been
          completed in 1967. It may have been written as late as
          that year.

          This gives us the window of writing as sometime
          between 1964 at the earliest, and 1967 at the latest.

          Working backwards from Resnick's birthdate of 1942,
          this gives us an age of between 22 and 25. That's not
          bad at all.

          Resnick seems to be exagerating his youth
          consistently, when discussing the issue, to the point
          of distorting actual times and timelines.

          For whatever reason, he chooses to disparage both
          Burroughs and his early work. He's quite dismissive
          of Bloodstone's (ack!!!) Tarzan on Mars, although I've
          heard kinder things said of it, and I've read that
          even Ray Bradbury was favourably taken with it.

          My impression of Resnick is that he is a fellow who is
          not shy with his opinions, if you know what I mean.
          Even if he isn't quite solid on his facts.






          --- Ghak <svwadding@...> wrote:

          > At 05:58 PM 6/21/2007, Den Valdron wrote:
          > >Resnick was born in 1942. He wrote them in
          > 1966-67.
          > >That makes him twenty-four and twenty-five years
          > old.
          >
          > He published them in 1966-67. He wrote the original
          > version of GODDESS
          > earlier. See:
          > <http://www.erblist.com/erbmania/resnickfsom.html>
          >
          > Ghak
          >
          >



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        • Den Valdron
          Behind any legend there are bits of real fact and real people. One of the most enduring legends of ERB fandom is the Barsoomian pastiche written by a young
          Message 4 of 25 , Jun 21, 2007
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            "Behind any legend there are bits of real fact and
            real people. One of the most enduring "legends" of ERB
            fandom is the Barsoomian pastiche written by a young
            boy, Forgotten Sea of Mars. The legend continues to
            exist as there are few copies of this story available
            for ERB collectors."


            Yeah, truth is that it was as a high school student,
            not a young boy, that he took his first stab at
            'Forgotten Sea' and left it unfinished.

            Then as a young man in his twenties, not a young boy,
            he took an unfinished high school manuscript,
            substantially rewrote it, finished it - modified and
            revised to the extent that it was essentially a new
            work, and got it published in a fanzine.

            It's a remarkable enough achievement. But its not the
            work of a 'boy genius.' Resnick is both trying to
            feed his own legend and distance himself from it,
            while disparaging his early career.

            Well, whatever dude.





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          • Den Valdron
            I sold it to Don Grant in hardcover, then sold it and a sequel to Paperback Library in paperback, back in the late 1960s. They re pretty good Burroughs
            Message 5 of 25 , Jun 21, 2007
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              "I sold it to Don Grant in hardcover, then sold it and
              a sequel to Paperback Library in paperback, back in
              the late 1960s. They're pretty good Burroughs
              pastiches, but they're absolutely terrible Resnick
              books. I didn't write any science fiction all during
              the 1970s to give people time to forget. Then I came
              back to the field, writing things that were important
              to me rather than things that were important to
              Burroughs"

              Resnick here is not quite correct. After Pursuit on
              Ganymede, which clearly contemplated a sequel, Resnick
              published 'Redbeard' a post-apocalyptic Conan the
              barbarian riff.

              From his biography: "Mike labored anonymously but
              profitably from 1964 through 1976, selling more than
              200 novels, 300 short stories and 2,000 articles,
              almost all of them under pseudonyms, most of them in
              the "adult" field. He edited 7 different tabloid
              newspapers and a pair of men's magazines, as well."

              A long career in 'porn' is giving people time to
              forget, and he returns to SF with 'Galactica discovers
              Earth.' I dunno. Sounds fishy.

              I got nothing against Resnick. His writing these days
              isn't to my taste, but its all a matter of taste. I
              don't disparage his career and accomplishments. Good
              for him.

              Push come down to shove, I'd say that Resnick has
              written roughly forty novels more than I have, and won
              thirty or more awards than I have. So there you go.



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            • jhuckenp@aol.com
              ... Den -- The type in FORGOTTEN SEA OF MARS is definitely not 12 point; in fact it appears that it has been reduced by half. Eight full page illustrations
              Message 6 of 25 , Jun 21, 2007
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                In a message dated 21/6/07 21:05:59, dgvaldron@... writes:

                > The 'Forgotten Sea of Mars' is described variously as
                > a novella or a pamphlet. An internet description
                > reports it as 26 pages, side stapled, 8&1/4 by 11
                > pages, double column format, typewriter font (likely
                > courier 12 point) with 8 full page illustrations.
                >
                Den --

                The type in FORGOTTEN SEA OF MARS is definitely not 12 point; in fact it
                appears that it has been reduced by half.

                Eight full page illustrations leaves us with 18 pages
                of text. Assuming courier 12 point and pushing the
                margins, thats a maximum of 600 words to a page.
                Perhaps they had a fancy typewriter that used a cg
                font at 10 point, sitill no more than 900 words.

                Which means that Forgotten Sea of Mars probably ran no
                more than 10,000 to 15,000 words, and probably
                substantially less.

                The margins are almost nonexistent. I'd say you need to quadruple the
                estimated word count, about 40k words.

                AQPorter



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              • Den Valdron
                ... Hmmm. Interesting. You have a copy? Have you read it? Is it any good? What s the story/plot in three paragraphs or less? A six point typeface would be
                Message 7 of 25 , Jun 21, 2007
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                  > The type in FORGOTTEN SEA OF MARS is definitely not
                  > 12 point; in fact it
                  > appears that it has been reduced by half.
                  > The margins are almost nonexistent. I'd say you
                  > need to quadruple the
                  > estimated word count, about 40k words.
                  >
                  > AQPorter

                  Hmmm. Interesting. You have a copy? Have you read
                  it? Is it any good? What's the story/plot in three
                  paragraphs or less?

                  A six point typeface would be absolutely illegible.
                  It simply can't be read. I can't reproduce it here,
                  but you can probably do so at home on your word
                  processor.

                  I scoped it out. Eight point typeface is the smallest
                  you can get and still be legible. Assuming quarter
                  inch margins, you'd get maybe 2100 words per page on a
                  Times Roman font or 1600 on a courier font. This
                  gives a word count of between 28,000 and 38,000, which
                  I'd think would be the absolute upper limit.

                  At a nine point typeface, which is still damned tiny,
                  and quarter inch margins, you'd run 1200 with courier,
                  and 1700 with Times Roman. That gives a word count of
                  21,000 to 28,000, speaking roughly.

                  Quarter inch margins leave absolutely nothing. We're
                  talking the mimeograph and xerox small press repro
                  technology of the day. I don't think it could even
                  reproduce six point font without smearing illegibly.
                  And at a quarter inch margins, drift would leave your
                  leading line of text off the page on some copies.

                  More likely the margins are 1/3 inch, with at least an
                  extra eight inch for side stapling, with perhaps a
                  quarter inch or less column separation, which would
                  mean that all the word counts I've given are probably
                  one to two thousand words too high.

                  However, if you could get 6 point times roman font in
                  on a single column with quarter inch margins, you
                  could get all the way to 4200 words per page. But at
                  that text density and difficulty of resolution your
                  eyes would start to bleed before you reached the end
                  of the first page. Seriously.






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                • Ghak
                  ... ... I printed out your message in six point Times New Roman and Courier New. With a good light source, I can read that at arm s length with just a
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jun 22, 2007
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                    At 02:36 AM 6/22/2007, Den Valdron wrote:
                    >A six point typeface would be absolutely illegible. It simply can't be
                    >read. I can't reproduce it here, but you can probably do so at home on
                    >your word processor.
                    <snip>
                    >Quarter inch margins leave absolutely nothing. We're talking the
                    >mimeograph and xerox small press repro technology of the day. I don't
                    >think it could even reproduce six point font without smearing illegibly.
                    >And at a quarter inch margins, drift would leave your leading line of text
                    >off the page on some copies.

                    I printed out your message in six point Times New Roman and Courier
                    New. With a good light source, I can read that at arm's length with just a
                    little strain, but it's quite easy to read at half that distance. I
                    wouldn't expect it to mimeograph well, though.

                    Ghak
                  • Den Valdron
                    Thanks Clark. Want to start bragging about your X-Ray and Heat vision too? ... Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jun 22, 2007
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                      Thanks Clark. Want to start bragging about your X-Ray
                      and Heat vision too?


                      --- Ghak <svwadding@...> wrote:

                      > At 02:36 AM 6/22/2007, Den Valdron wrote:
                      > >A six point typeface would be absolutely illegible.
                      > It simply can't be
                      > >read. I can't reproduce it here, but you can
                      > probably do so at home on
                      > >your word processor.
                      > <snip>
                      > >Quarter inch margins leave absolutely nothing.
                      > We're talking the
                      > >mimeograph and xerox small press repro technology
                      > of the day. I don't
                      > >think it could even reproduce six point font
                      > without smearing illegibly.
                      > >And at a quarter inch margins, drift would leave
                      > your leading line of text
                      > >off the page on some copies.
                      >
                      > I printed out your message in six point Times New
                      > Roman and Courier
                      > New. With a good light source, I can read that at
                      > arm's length with just a
                      > little strain, but it's quite easy to read at half
                      > that distance. I
                      > wouldn't expect it to mimeograph well, though.
                      >
                      > Ghak
                      >
                      >



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                    • jhuckenp@aol.com
                      ... Yes. ... Yes -- 42 years ago. ... One of the best, as I remember it. ... Need to re-read it & get back to you with a summary. AQPorter
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jun 22, 2007
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                        In a message dated 22/6/07 1:47:26, dgvaldron@... writes:


                        > You have a copy?
                        >
                        Yes.

                        > Have you read it?
                        >
                        Yes -- 42 years ago.

                        > Is it any good?
                        >
                        One of the best, as I remember it.

                        > What's the story/plot in three paragraphs or less?
                        >
                        Need to re-read it & get back to you with a summary.

                        AQPorter



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                      • Den Valdron
                        ... Well, hop to it my good man. I m sure everyone on the list is waiting for you with baited breath. Don t hold yourself to three paragraphs. Be smarter
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jun 22, 2007
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                          > > Is it any good?
                          > >
                          > One of the best, as I remember it.
                          >
                          > > What's the story/plot in three paragraphs or less?
                          > >
                          > Need to re-read it & get back to you with a summary.


                          Well, hop to it my good man. I'm sure everyone on the
                          list is waiting for you with baited breath. Don't
                          hold yourself to three paragraphs.


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                        • Saroda Mara
                          I m looking forward to it. It may or may not be any good, but hey, I ve read good and bad lemons, and it can t be any worse than a bad lemon. I printed out
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jun 22, 2007
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                            I'm looking forward to it. It may or may not be any good, but hey,
                            I've read good and bad lemons, and it can't be any worse than a bad lemon.

                            I printed out two pages from _A Princess of Mars_, one in Times New
                            Roman at 6 point and the other in Courier New at 6 point. I should
                            say that two pages at 6 point is a lot. In particular, all of Chapter
                            One: On the Arizona Hills fit on one page when done in TNR 6 point,
                            and most of Chapter Two: My Advent on Mars, fit on one page when done
                            in CN 6 point (up to and including the paragraph "My feat then was as
                            marvelous upon Mars as it would have been upon Earth, and from
                            desiring to annihilate me they suddenly looked upon me as a wonderful
                            discovery to be captured and exhibited among their fellows.").

                            Using Word Count, I find (after removing chapter titles or blank
                            spaces between chapters, so that it's all story) that I have 3,261
                            word on a page in TNR, and 2,341 in CN. From a distance (metre or so)
                            the CN appears fainter than the TNR.

                            I can't of course read either font at this distance. At a more
                            reasonable distance, and with good light, I can read it, but it isn't
                            easy. The CN is a little easier, but neither is something I'd
                            recommend. After a few paragraphs to assure myself that it could
                            indeed be done, I quit, because it was slow going and was bothering my
                            eyes (and remember, this is _A Princess of Mars_, which most of us
                            could almost recite blindfolded).

                            What this tells us about _Lost Sea_ I don't know, but there it is on
                            fonts and print size and such.

                            I've posted a copy of _Princess_ in 6 point Courier New in the FILES
                            section, if anybody wants to hurt their eyes with it.
                          • Saroda Mara
                            I forgot to say: my little experiment had the top, left, and right margins set to a quarter inch, and the bottom margin set to half an inch. When I tried to
                            Message 13 of 25 , Jun 22, 2007
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                              I forgot to say: my little experiment had the top, left, and right
                              margins set to a quarter inch, and the bottom margin set to half an
                              inch. When I tried to make it a quarter inch, it told me it couldn't
                              print that way. Also, my paragraph indent was set at 0.2" and my
                              between paragraph spacing was set to 2 point.
                            • Den Valdron
                              I m surprised that you can still see. Most normal humans would be lying on the floor in the grip of a migraine. At that kind of diminutive by the way, I m
                              Message 14 of 25 , Jun 22, 2007
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                                I'm surprised that you can still see. Most normal
                                humans would be lying on the floor in the grip of a
                                migraine.

                                At that kind of diminutive by the way, I'm really
                                skeptical that a 60's era small fanzine press could
                                have produced a legible copy.

                                Most legal fine print doesn't go below 8 or 9 point.


                                --- Saroda Mara <xenophile2002@...> wrote:

                                > I forgot to say: my little experiment had the top,
                                > left, and right
                                > margins set to a quarter inch, and the bottom margin
                                > set to half an
                                > inch. When I tried to make it a quarter inch, it
                                > told me it couldn't
                                > print that way. Also, my paragraph indent was set
                                > at 0.2" and my
                                > between paragraph spacing was set to 2 point.
                                >
                                >



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                              • Rick Johnson
                                with all this argument (not discussion) about how many pages and words and such, why not just ask around until you find a copy in someone s closet, scan it in
                                Message 15 of 25 , Jun 22, 2007
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                                  with all this argument (not discussion) about how many pages and
                                  words and such, why not just ask around until you find a copy in
                                  someone's closet, scan it in with OCR and PDF and then do a word
                                  count and measure it with a ruler.

                                  That would give you everything from publication date to font-size to
                                  word count to...


                                  As for me, today I can read 10 point easily, 8 with effort and lots
                                  of light but under that, I find a photocopier with blow-up featuer
                                  helps a lot.
                                  I read 12 point normally but prefer 14 by candlelight.
                                  Of course, that is because I am getting old and need new glasses.

                                  Can we assume that Resnick wrote the original story when young,
                                  rewrote it later to publish, then used it as a base for another novel
                                  of questionable literary value?

                                  About the only thing the exact dates is worth is to determine
                                  the 'veracity' or 'memory' of the writer.


                                  Rick Johnson, PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
                                  http://www.geocities.com/DesertHenge
                                  http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_ERB
                                  http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_RLJ


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