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Re: [barsoom] Re: Den Valdron, Lin Carter Interview?

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  • Jim Clunie
    Odd. I just opened it without problems from this (Internet cafe) PC. Is your Adobe Reader the latest version? Jim C
    Message 1 of 16 , Nov 13, 2006
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      Odd. I just opened it without problems from this (Internet cafe) PC.
      Is your Adobe Reader the latest version?

      Jim C

      On 11/14/06, Fred Kiesche <godel2escher2bach@...> wrote:
      > Greetings:
      >
      > Jim, I've tried opening the document via the link and
      > also downloading it and then opening it. I keep
      > getting an error message that the document is damaged
      > and cannot be repaired (an Adobe Acrobat message).
    • Den Valdron
      Hi there, I have a couple of papers coming up soon on Bill Hillman s site that I m calling Colonial Barsoom , devoted to the Martian stories of Lin Carter and
      Message 2 of 16 , Nov 20, 2006
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        Hi there,

        I have a couple of papers coming up soon on Bill
        Hillman's site that I'm calling "Colonial Barsoom",
        devoted to the Martian stories of Lin Carter and Leigh
        Brackett respectively.

        The idea is that the Mars that Lin Carter and Leigh
        Brackett are writing about really is Barsoom. Not
        just inspired by Barsoom, not just a pale rip off of
        Barsoom, but actually bona fide Barsoom. Or at least,
        so close to Barsoom that there's no real point in
        making a distinction.

        It's basically the idea that the fictional Mars is a
        single big landscape.

        Sort of the same notion that the wild west, which is
        both real and fictional is simply a single big
        landscape, it's a place where, theoretically, John
        Wayne and Clint Eastwood and Louis Lamour characters
        and the actual historical gunslingers and cowboys all
        lived and died, rather than simply being a set of
        parallel wests. Same landscape.

        Since the real Mars is clearly a pretty inhospitable
        world, I've taken to calling this version of Mars as
        Greater Barsoom.

        And yes, before you say it, I know I need to get a
        life.

        But then again, for several years now, writers like
        Robert Heinlein, C. Bertram Chandler, George Alec
        Effinger, Allan Moore and Larry Niven have been
        writing stories where the inhabitants of Barsoom share
        their planet with, and sometimes fight, the Martians
        of H.G. Wells, C.S.Lewis, Edwin Arnold, Michael
        Moorcock, Stanley Weinbaum etc. So, it seems that
        Greater Barsoom was happening with or without me.

        Anyway, for those who are interested, I'd like to
        present a piece of my paper on the Lin Carter essay,
        looking at Lin Carter's book, The Man Who Loved Mars,
        and linking its hero, Ivo Tengren back to John Carter.


        I hope that you like it, and if you do, I hope you'll
        take a look at the essays as they come on line...

        * * * * * * * * *


        In The Man Who Loved Mars, Ivo Tengren is the
        Jamad Tengru, a position whose closest terrestrial
        equivalent is was "Holy Roman Emperor"

        That is, he's a sort of Pope/Emperor, or perhaps an
        Ayatollah/Caliph. A person who is theoretically
        vested with both spiritual and secular authority over
        the whole of the nations of Mars.

        Nations which normally are disunited and prone to war
        upon each other, and within each other. No matter how
        they fight or how fiercely they fight, they all
        recognize and honour the Jamad Tengru.

        Of course, the Jamad's authority is not unlimited,
        otherwise the nations could not fight each other.
        Rather, it seems to be partly moral suasion or
        religious fervour. Local powers, Clan Chiefs or
        Princesses can choose to disregard the Jamad and often
        do.

        Indeed, when Ivo began his Jihad against the Earth
        occupation, he started with only one Martian nation
        working for him, the Red Mountain. This was joined by
        a second, the White Hawks. Eventually, his revolt
        encompassed four of the Martian nations.

        Four out of Nine, in a planetary Jihad called by the
        Jamad against outsiders hated everywhere on the
        planet. Yes, its impressive that he was able to rouse
        and rally four nations, almost half the planet in an
        uprising.

        And its also significant that five of the nine stayed
        home and sat it out.

        Following the Jamad's authority is voluntary, it is a
        matter of respect and honour, rather than obligation
        and duty. The Jamad, unlike the clans, city states,
        and royal lines, do not have administrative or feudal
        lines of authority to enforce their power. Instead,
        they have to rely upon force of personality, respect,
        the appeal of their 'cause', and the support of those
        who have more normal chains and levers of political
        power.

        Got it?

        Okay, now, let's take a look at Jamad Tengru and do a
        bit of deconstruction in Barsoomian terms.

        First step: 'Mad'

        Mad in Barsoomian means 'Man', thus a warrior with
        only one name among the Green Men is an 'Omad' Single
        Man. Meanwhile, the first or chief synthetic man who
        overthrows Ras Thavas is 'Ay-Mad' or Number One Man.

        So, Jamad Tengru is Ja-(Man) Tengru.

        What is Ja? Well, Ja shows up in Barsoom in Jahar and
        Tjanath, city names. So we know it seems to be an
        important root. 'Je' which is phonetically a
        derivation, shows up in Jeddak, Jed, Jetan. All of
        which seems to imply high office. A Jed is a King, a
        Jeddak is a King of Kings. Jetan is a chess game, and
        chess is a strategy game, game of Kings. Ja or Je
        also shows up in Leigh Brackett with the city of
        Jekkara.

        Which implies that Jamad Tengru is King-Man Tengru.

        Okay, so what about Tengru. There's no Barsoomian
        word that resembles Tengru. Nor for that matter, any
        Carter word, or Kline or Brackett or Tolstoy word
        which would fit.

        So do we quit? Nope. Let's break it down. Jamad is
        actually two words or concepts. Many Barsoomian words
        are compound words in that they're made up of
        identifiable smaller words. Turgan, the Martian
        bible, for instance, is actually Tur-Gan. Tur is god,
        Gan obviously means book. So Turgan is actually
        literally 'Tur-Book.'

        Is Tengru a variant of Turgan? King-Man of Tur-Book?
        Interesting, but not quite. I think its too much of a
        stretch phonetically.

        Break Tengru down, and what do we have. Ten-Gru?
        Teng-Ru? Still nothing.

        Look at it phonetically, what does the Ten or Teng do
        when you sound it out, and compare it to other Martian
        words sounded...

        Ten or Teng... Tehn? Tahn? Than?

        Than, as in Warrior. Panthan - mercenary warrior.
        Gorthan - assassin or solitary warrior.

        But there's also Tan a military formation of warriors.
        U-tan, an officer of warriors. Jetan, a game where
        the players are warriors. Tan is clearly a variation
        on Than.

        Which fills in another piece of the puzzle.

        Jamad Tengru = King-Man Warrior-?

        So now we're at Gru or Ru? Anything directly in
        Barsoomian and the other writers words. No. 'U' shows
        up frequently in Barsoomian names and titles, as we
        see in U-tan, but there's no clear meaning to it.

        But if we look at Lin Carter, we find the word root
        Hua being used for priests, for sacred valley, holy
        tablet, etc. In short, Hua is Lin Carter's root word
        for sacred or holy. Let's go with Sacred for the hell
        of it.

        Hua is, in phonetic terms, pretty much identical to or
        close to a pronunciation of 'U.' Close enough. You
        can go out of your way to add a soft 'H' and a soft
        'a', to pronounce it properly, but what most people
        will hear is the U. So if you were writing it down
        and not carefully nuancing, you'd find yourself
        writing Hua-Tan for instance as Utan.

        It's worth noting that some earthly languages can have
        trouble pronouncing certain consonants from other
        languages. Thus for Chinese or Japanese, 'l' and 'r'
        can become interchangeable. Or 'h' sometimes slur's
        into an 'r'

        So an attempt to pronounce Hua, might in some accents
        or some usages seem to resemble Ru, particularly if
        you were following it with a hard consonant like 'n'/

        And that's the last piece of the puzzle.

        Jamad Tengru is literally King-Man Warrior-Sacred.

        Helpful? But we have to remember that direct literal
        translations are often tricky. Words carry concepts,
        they're made up of smaller words with their own
        concepts, but they need to be massaged to get the full
        meaning. It's not often a literal one to one
        breakdown in order, but quite usually, its a flavour
        or gist.

        King-Man is pretty obvious. King, Emperor, an
        ordinary man raised to the status of King, or perhaps
        simply 'King of Men' or 'King of the Race of Man'...
        'King of Man'

        All of these interpretations work for the Jamad
        Tengru. In particular, he is a normal man (ie, not
        necessarily royalty, its not an inherited position),
        and he is the leader of all Martians, rather than a
        particular tribe or nation.

        Warrior-Sacred is interesting. Most of the uses of
        Hua or U in Carter and Burroughs come at the front of
        the word, which makes sense, if the sacred or holy
        nature is the defining thing. But here it is
        reversed, and the defining term is Warrior. So
        perhaps this is not a Holy Warrior, but rather, a
        Warrior who is Blessed. Not a Sacred Warrior, as in
        Warrior Priest who fights for and on behalf of God.
        But rather, a Warrior who God favours, someone who God
        or the Gods pitch in for.

        Another approach might be to look at the
        'Warrior-Sacred' in terms of the split between the
        political or material and the spiritual and
        honourable. Most warriors fit into politics, they're
        part of the secular world, the nuts and bolts of kings
        and officers, country, duty, obligation, chain of
        command and all that. So, perhaps this simply means
        that the Warrior-Sacred is outside of that secular
        world.

        He's not part of politics, not part of the chain of
        command, duty to officers, duty to city. Rather, he's
        a warrior whose command is honour or duty itself, his
        obligation or power or authority comes not from
        commanders, but from concepts or rules outside the
        secular world, of spirit and duty. Perhaps instead of
        Sacred, we should have said Honour or Honourable.
        Which would mean that the 'Warrior-Sacred' is simply
        ... sort of like a Knight or a free Samurai. Not tied
        to politics or mundane power, but operating on
        different rules. Again, this is actually consistent
        with what we know of the Jamad Tengru's status as a
        lord outside and above the political power structures.

        So, going with King-Man Warrior-Sacred, what is that
        really? Sacred Warrior King. Man who is king of
        Sacred Warriors. King Warrior of Sacred authority.
        Lord of Holy Warriors. Lord of War.

        Warlord?

        Keep shuffling the word cards, and sooner or later,
        every time, the most economical result that comes out,
        the most coherent is Warlord.

        Jamad Tengru translates almost directly as Warlord of
        Mars.

        How about that.

        What a coincidence.

        Someone call John Carter.

        And about John Carter, let's think about that for a
        little bit.

        We know that Barsoomian society is hidebound and very
        concerned with its personal and social etiquette.
        Dejah Thoris damn near does herself in because she's
        betrothed to the Prince of Zodanga. Meanwhile, Carter
        was in a pickle because if he killed the Prince,
        Barsoomian customs would prohibit him from taking
        Dejah as his bride. It's a society with very strict
        mores, so that in the middle of a battlefield, if
        you're in a swordfight, it's the height of bad form to
        pull a gun.

        It's a society based on hereditary aristocracy, nobles
        of all sorts, up to Jeds and Jeddaks, all of it
        fitting into strict feudal chains of responsibility
        and obligation. Nobles don't just get the perks,
        they're as responsible to the people under them as
        they are above. Noble based societies tend to be very
        finicky and particular about titles and awards of
        every sort. It's a society all about status and
        levels of status.

        But for John Carter, they just... pulled a unique,
        never before invented, noble title out of their ass
        and crowned him Warlord?

        Like we're to believe John Carter was the first
        Warlord ever? The title had no history, no
        background, no chain, in a society tens or hundreds of
        thousands of years old and obsessed with etiquette,
        rank and codes of honour.

        Does that seem plausible to you? Seriously?

        With what we know of Barsoomian society, do you think
        a bunch of Jeddaks are sitting around, kicking back
        with Barsoomian Martini's going, 'Hey, that John
        Carter is a hell of a guy, we should throw him a party
        to thank him for all that he's done.'

        And they'd go 'Yeah, a party, that's a great idea.
        And we'll give him a gold watch or something.' 'Or an
        award! A plaque!' 'Yeah, an award!' 'Hey, I've got
        a great idea, let's invent a title on the spot for
        him!' 'Yay'

        Seriously?

        Probably not.

        So... let's think about it. What actually does being
        the Warlord of Barsoom do for John Carter?

        Well, it doesn't come with its own fleet of warships,
        or a city to rule, or in fact any formal secular
        authority. John continues to live in Helium. Tardos
        Mors and Mors Kajak continue to run the place as Jed
        and Jeddak. The political and military lines of
        command in Helium all run straight to them, not to
        John. John's not in a position to give them orders or
        overrule them, not that we know. Nor does he get
        particular authority over anywhere else. He's not the
        direct ruler of the Okar, or the First Born, or the
        Therns. They all have their own Jeddaks and their own
        national governments, their own fleets, their own
        chains of command and authority all ending up in their
        Jeddaks. So John is outside the formal command
        structure.

        At the same time though, John's status as warlord is
        acknowledged by Helium, by Okar, by Ptarth, by Omean,
        etc. etc.

        In the later books, we see that when John Carter puts
        out the call, the fleets of whole nations come into
        motion. I think there's one book where John Carter
        calls into being a mighty multinational armada with
        ships or fleets literally converging from nations from
        one pole to the other.

        So, in a sense, there's a real authority. John
        Carter, on his own or under the title of Warlord has
        some real mojo behind it.

        Still, its voluntary mojo. It's not that he calls out
        a multinational fleet everywhere he goes. Sometimes
        its just Helium. Or Helium and Gathol.

        So a lot seems to depend upon the situation, the
        appeal of his cause, the respect and devotion that he
        commands...

        Sound familiar?

        So... effectively, John Carter, as Warlord of Mars,
        seems to have a job description and sort of authority
        which is very similar to, if not identical to that of
        the Jamad Tengru.

        We never got a translation into Barsoomian of Warlord
        by Burroughs.

        Obviously, it wouldn't be a title similar to Jed or
        Jeddak, since it's outside that chain of authority.
        Probably not Urjeddak, or Superjed or stuff like that,
        though the 'Je' might probably cling. It would be a
        singular and personal title though, specific to the
        Man. It would probably, as a personal title, relate
        to warrior status. It would be a transnational title
        crossing boundaries, based in traditional prestige or
        veneration rather than secular or political authority.

        If we were to work backwards and try to translate
        John's title into Barsoomian, we might come up with
        Je-Than, or Je-Mad Than, or Je-Mad U-Than, or Je-Mad
        Than-U... something like Jamad Tengru?

        Which suggests that, no, the Barsoomians did not pull
        'Warlord of Mars' out of their asses just for John
        Carter.

        And it also suggests that Ivo Tengren was not the
        first Earthman to be the Jamad Tengru of Barsoom.
        There was one before him...

        Okay, so does this mean that John Carter is dead in
        Lin Carter's 22nd century Mars?

        Possibly, it is 200 years after all. He could have
        died of old age. Or he could have died from a very
        active lifestyle, if you know what I mean.

        Or he could still be around, but merely relinquished
        the title and the Iron Crown voluntarily.

        Indeed, we know from Ivo Tengren that the title of
        Jamad Tengru must be passed on from one living Jamad
        to the next. If a Jamad dies, then its over, the
        ancient crown goes dead, the power and authority and
        knowledge it conveys is gone.

        Ivo inherited his Jamad-ship from the previous Jamad,
        Thioma, who was dying but not dead. Ivo got it
        because Thioma was dying and desperate to pass the
        mantle before he died.

        It's likely that this is pretty exceptional. In most
        cases, the Jamad-ship is probably passed on under
        safer and saner circumstances, with more deliberation,
        and not on battlefields, or deathbeds. In short,
        passing the mantle is probably a more considered, more
        formal thing, between persons with all their
        faculties.

        So clearly, John Carter would have had to have passed
        it on. We can speculate on any number of reasons why
        he might have chosen to do so. We can be sure though,
        that he was alive and well when he did so. And
        there's nothing to suggest that he died immediately or
        at any point thereafter.

        So where is John Carter in Lin Carter's 22nd Century
        Barsoom?

        Don't know. It's possible that John is holding the
        fort in Helium, preserving its independence from or
        trying to maintain a stalemate with the Colonial
        administration.

        Or perhaps the Earth Imperialists, perceiving John as
        a threat to their plans, invited him on a triumphal
        tour of Earth in the spirit of Earth Mars friendship,
        and locked him up.

        I can imagine John Carter a prisoner on the Moon or in
        some Earthly city, an exile from his world, like
        Napoleon on St. Helena. Too important to kill, too
        dangerous to be let loose. The latest of a long line
        of Imperial Exile/Prisoners.

        I just can't imagine keeping a guy like John Carter
        down forever.

        Anyway, just some thoughts....



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      • jhuckenp@aol.com
        ... As does Sheb Takkor in Kline s SWORDSMAN OF MARS. You ve probably guessed from the fact that I use the handle Ivo Tengren on the Carter list that THE MAN
        Message 3 of 16 , Nov 20, 2006
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          In a message dated 20/11/06 15:29:10, dgvaldron@... writes:

          > So... effectively, John Carter, as Warlord of Mars, seems to have a job
          > description and sort of authority which is very similar to, if not identical to
          > that of the Jamad Tengru.
          >
          As does Sheb Takkor in Kline's SWORDSMAN OF MARS.

          You've probably guessed from the fact that I use the handle "Ivo Tengren" on
          the Carter list that THE MAN WHO LOVED MARS is my favorite Lin Carter story.
          But I'm not sure I'm ready to concede that Carter's Mars is ERB's, though
          there are obvious similarities.

          On the other hand, I see no inherent inconsistency between Lin Carter's Mars
          and Leigh Brackett's or Ross Rocklynne's. (I just recently came across a
          copy of the June 1970 issue of SPACEWAY which contains other stories of a similar
          Mars -- "Farewell Mars" by Gerald Page and Hank Reinhardt and "Hybrid Enigma"
          by Max Sheridan.)

          You've singled out THE MAN WHO LOVED MARS as the one Carter story to fit into
          ERB's canon. I'd suggest looking at the five stories as a whole, beginning
          with THE FLAME OF IRIDAR in the far past when Mars still had its oceans, and
          Chandar of Orm first built an alliance of city-states. Carter at least
          implies that the title (or at least the concept) of Jamad Tengru may have originated
          with Chandar.

          AQPorter/Ivo Tengren


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Den Valdron
          I ll have to go and re-read Swordsman of Mars again. I had the impression that Sheb Takkor was a classical hereditary feudal noble position. Remember that
          Message 4 of 16 , Nov 21, 2006
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            I'll have to go and re-read Swordsman of Mars again.
            I had the impression that Sheb Takkor was a classical
            hereditary feudal noble position. Remember that when
            his father dies, Borgen Thakkor (Harry Thorne)
            automatically inherits both his father's name, Sheb,
            and his castle in Thakkor Marsh. There's not even a
            reading of the will, its simply "Hey, you're the New
            Sheb, same as the old Sheb, now come home and do your
            duties." A lot of the plot complications come about
            because a socialist/radical movement has abolished
            noble titles and property, but by the end, that's all
            been restored.

            On the other hand, Jerry Morgan in Outlaw of Mars
            really does manufacture his own title as 'The
            Commoner' but he's also passing himself off, at least
            initially, as the son of Sarkiss, a mythical/prophetic
            role.

            I agree that The Man Who Loved Mars is far and away
            Carter's best Martian novel. Ivo Tengru, perhaps
            because he's narrated in the first person, is a
            fascinating character, at first world weary and
            broken, as the novel goes on he becomes increasingly
            forceful and passionate, his personal history and
            ideals continually reveal new depths, yet he remains
            human, self-searching, conflicted, capable of both
            heroism and mistakes.

            The only thing wrong with the novel is the clunky Deus
            Ex Machina resolution that comes at the end.

            Frankly, I'd have loved to have read a Prequel Novel
            covering Ivo's early career or first Jihad. Or a
            sequel novel exploring a second Jihad. It's a shame,
            Carter often seemed to latch onto an idea and work it
            to death over five books. Here, he gives us this
            fascinating character, a uniquely interesting hero,
            and he's only a one shot.

            Ah well, better than having Ivo reduced to generic by
            the end of a fifth.


            > But I'm not sure I'm ready to concede that Carter's
            > Mars is ERB's, though
            > there are obvious similarities.

            Like Multi-Legged Predators, a copper skinned, beast
            riding, feudal/aristocratic race, city states, etc.?
            Actually, in the full essay, I do make a more thorough
            case.

            > On the other hand, I see no inherent inconsistency
            > between Lin Carter's Mars
            > and Leigh Brackett's or Ross Rocklynne's. (I just
            > recently came across a
            > copy of the June 1970 issue of SPACEWAY which
            > contains other stories of a similar
            > Mars -- "Farewell Mars" by Gerald Page and Hank
            > Reinhardt and "Hybrid Enigma"
            > by Max Sheridan.)

            My argument is also that Brackett's Mars is Barsoom as
            well. I've done two essays I call Colonial Barsoom,
            on Carter and Brackett, arguing in detail that these
            versions of Mars are actually Barsoom two or three
            centuries after John Carter's period, during an era of
            colonial exploitation by Earth.

            Sadly, though there's probably room for a third
            Colonial Mars essay, touching on other writers during
            a similar period depicting similar circumstances, it
            probably won't be written.

            Brackett with her fourteen stories and novels, and
            Carter with his five novels and short story represent
            pretty huge volumes, something on a part with the
            volume of Barsoom. Most other 'Colonial Mars' writers
            did at most a few short stories or a one off novel.
            Shame though, since Colonial Mars undoubtedly precedes
            Brackett by a good margin.

            > You've singled out THE MAN WHO LOVED MARS as the one
            > Carter story to fit into
            > ERB's canon. I'd suggest looking at the five
            > stories as a whole, beginning
            > with THE FLAME OF IRIDAR in the far past when Mars
            > still had its oceans, and
            > Chandar of Orm first built an alliance of
            > city-states. Carter at least
            > implies that the title (or at least the concept) of
            > Jamad Tengru may have originated
            > with Chandar.

            The speculation of the origin of the Jamad Tengru is
            interesting. As I've said, I haven't read the Flame
            of Iridar

            But I've actually read the Lin Carter's four Martian
            books (excluding the 'El Dorado' story and 'Flame of
            Iridar.')

            On the other hand, I've read Steve Servello's synopsis
            of Iridar and your own excellent article on the
            subject of Carter's Mars.

            My paper attempts to cover and draw on all of Carter's
            Mars stories, particularly the four novels, but with
            acknowledgements of the two missing works.

            For my Brackett essay, unfortunately, I didn't have
            her entire Mars Canon, but I did have the advantage of
            having several novels, novellas and short stories -
            Rhiannon, Nemesis, People of the Talisman, Secret of
            Sinharat, Return to Sinharat, Last Days of Shondakor,
            Beast Jewel, Bisha, Purple Priestess, Halfling, as
            well as the Venus stories Loreli and Enchantress, and
            the Wikipedia articles.

            If you're interested, I could send you the draft
            articles directly.


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          • Rick Johnson
            Thinking of this, and almost off-topic... maybe.... It occurs that when the 30+ Jeddaks declared John Carter Warlord, they intended this to be a military title
            Message 5 of 16 , Nov 21, 2006
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              Thinking of this, and almost off-topic... maybe....

              It occurs that when the 30+ Jeddaks declared John Carter Warlord, they
              intended this to be a military title only.

              But, it also accurs to me now that Den mentions the other books with
              similar people, that some of the smaller nations who were at odds with
              helium or Ptarth or any of the other 30+ nations that acknowledged JC
              would feel somewhat threatened and so perhaps band together to appoint
              their own Warlord.

              Thus I see Barsoom as not only a number of empires (Helium, Ptarth,
              Jahar) with a bunch of smaller independant nations.
              Plus a number of 'super-empires' that share military force under their
              various Warlords.

              Gosh, the potential for a World War of Barsoom is getting closer and
              closer with smaller nation being draged into combat because their
              Warlords elected to protect them are now forcing them to fight when
              they would rather be neutral.


              I also just did a story (part 3 of a series) that takes Okar and Den's
              theory of isolated domed cities a step further.
              What if a city in an impact crater (valley) would enclose itself to
              survive the death of the planet. Then with aircraft technology a
              short step to spaceship technology, simply convert that valley into a
              space-ship.
              Lift off under the Ray of Repulsion and if your resources and ability
              to manufacture air, recycle water and grow food was sufficient, you
              would have a generation-ship heading for a nearby star seking a new
              life.
              Since Humans think in terms of decades, if that, we couldn't do that.
              But since the Barsoomian thinks in terms of dozens of thousands of
              years and they made the waterways to last a million years, it would
              not be difficult or expensive to do a little work at a time and spend
              a dozen thousand years slowly converting the domed-valley and
              perfecting the engines and life-support.


              Rick Johnson, PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
              http://www.geocities.com/DesertHenge
              http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_ERB
              http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_RLJ


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            • Den Valdron
              ... Hmmm... interesting. I don t think that a Barsoom World War was likely however. By the end of the series, Helium had conquered Zodanga, Zor and Hastor
              Message 6 of 16 , Nov 21, 2006
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                > It occurs that when the 30+ Jeddaks declared John
                > Carter Warlord, they
                > intended this to be a military title only.
                >
                > But, it also accurs to me now that Den mentions the
                > other books with
                > similar people, that some of the smaller nations who
                > were at odds with
                > helium or Ptarth or any of the other 30+ nations
                > that acknowledged JC
                > would feel somewhat threatened and so perhaps band
                > together to appoint
                > their own Warlord.
                >
                > Thus I see Barsoom as not only a number of empires
                > (Helium, Ptarth,
                > Jahar) with a bunch of smaller independant nations.
                > Plus a number of 'super-empires' that share military
                > force under their
                > various Warlords.
                >
                > Gosh, the potential for a World War of Barsoom is
                > getting closer and
                > closer with smaller nation being draged into combat
                > because their
                > Warlords elected to protect them are now forcing
                > them to fight when
                > they would rather be neutral.

                Hmmm... interesting. I don't think that a Barsoom
                World War was likely however. By the end of the
                series, Helium had conquered Zodanga, Zor and Hastor
                of the named cities and was listed as being on good
                terms (semi-feudal domination?) with all of its
                neighbors. It had a working alliance with the Thark
                nation, and to some extent the Warhoons. Alliances by
                marriage through Carthoris with Ptarth, and through
                Tara with Gathol, via Paxton with Toonol, and through
                Hadron with Tjanath. Jahar was ruined, Pankar
                defeated. The Therns, Okar and First born were either
                shattered or allied. Carter's Heliumatic league
                literally controlled most the planet.

                The only way I could see a significant challenge to
                the Heliumatic league would be if you went to Greater
                Barsoom.

                There, with say Kline and Tolstoy, you could probably
                find a ready challenger to Helium in the form of the
                great northern Hemisphere city state of Raliad, which
                if anything, was larger than Helium. An alliance of
                Raliad, Dukor, Nunt and Soatsera might actually stand
                against Helium.

                Alternately, the more interesting approach might be a
                race war between Well's Martians and their allies, and
                the Human races. Several writers have actually
                touched on this, notably Allan Moore and George Alec
                Effinger.

                > I also just did a story (part 3 of a series) that
                > takes Okar and Den's
                > theory of isolated domed cities a step further.
                > What if a city in an impact crater (valley) would
                > enclose itself to
                > survive the death of the planet. Then with aircraft
                > technology a
                > short step to spaceship technology, simply convert
                > that valley into a
                > space-ship.

                I assume its a question of industrial capacity. I saw
                roofing over a falley as the fastest simplest way to
                survive. A valley would provide walls and stable
                support, so all you'd have to do, in engineering
                terms, is a roof, and not much of one at that. A
                Dome? That's a hugely bigger project.

                So, in the scary period of the fall of Orovar
                civilization and the worldwide disruptions, its more
                feasible that refugees facing planetary death might be
                looking to build the fastest, best, easiest shelters
                possible... largely because they were desperate and
                had limited resources.

                But once they seal themselves off, they're sort of
                trapped in their fallout shelters aren't they?
                They're restricted largely to the resources and
                industrial capacity that they took with them into the
                shelter, minus what they used to build the shelter
                itself.

                Mind you, I could see some extremely wealthy groups
                creating their own little worlds, versions of Martian
                Prospero's from Poe's Masque of the Red Death.

                On the other hand, if some of the shelters were lucky
                enough to be sitting on the right mix of resources,
                who knows.

                One thing they've got working for them is time. Vast,
                vast amounts of time. With dedication and purpose,
                time could make up for all sorts of other
                shortcomings.


                > Lift off under the Ray of Repulsion and if your
                > resources and ability
                > to manufacture air, recycle water and grow food was
                > sufficient, you
                > would have a generation-ship heading for a nearby
                > star seking a new
                > life.

                A nearby star? Why not a nearby planet? According to
                Burroughs, there are habitable or semi-habitable
                worlds through the solar system. Let's face it, if
                Jupiter can have a human habitable band....

                > Since Humans think in terms of decades, if that, we
                > couldn't do that.
                > But since the Barsoomian thinks in terms of dozens
                > of thousands of
                > years and they made the waterways to last a million
                > years, it would
                > not be difficult or expensive to do a little work at
                > a time and spend
                > a dozen thousand years slowly converting the
                > domed-valley and
                > perfecting the engines and life-support.

                I think the key is life support. Okar and presumably
                Pankor have their own atmosphere plants for their
                domes, so they've mastered full life sustaining
                technology.

                On the other hand, its scary to leave the resources,
                even of a dead planet, for space. If you need to go
                mine some radium in deep space... well, good luck.

                Still, its viable. I'd see it as perhaps a fairly
                deviant group of Barsoomians. Cultists or Apocalyptics.

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              • jhuckenp@aol.com
                ... Den -- It s not only the hereditary Takkor title and lands. When he meets with Miradon Vil in the last chapter, the emperor says: First, I free you and
                Message 7 of 16 , Nov 21, 2006
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                  In a message dated 21/11/06 9:04:40, dgvaldron@... writes:

                  > I had the impression that Sheb Takkor was a classical hereditary feudal
                  > noble position. Remember that when his father dies, Borgen Thakkor (Harry
                  > Thorne) automatically inherits both his father's name, Sheb, and his castle in
                  > Thakkor Marsh. There's not even a reading of the will, its simply "Hey, you're
                  > the New Sheb, same as the old Sheb, now come home and do your duties." A lot of
                  > the plot complications come about because a socialist/radical movement has
                  > abolished noble titles and property, but by the end, that's all been restored.
                  >
                  Den --

                  It's not only the hereditary Takkor title and lands. When he meets with
                  Miradon Vil in the last chapter, the emperor says:

                  "First, I free you and Takkor from all allegiance to Xancibar. This makes you
                  the supreme ruler of the raddek, and the collector and dispenser of all
                  Takkor revenues.
                  "Second, I have conferred with the Vils of the other great powers of
                  Mars, and we have decided that you shall be the arbiter of our destinies. You
                  captured the weapons and the laboratory with wehich Sel Han sought to conquer
                  Mars. In unscrupulous hands they could do much harm. But we have faith in
                  you. We want you to keep them, to protect ys against any other ambitious
                  plotters who may arise, so that we may fight our wars and settle our differences
                  with the weapons of honor and chivalry we have always used. So, in effect, we
                  make you the custodian of our liberty."
                  From a taboret which stood beside the dais, he took a goldenmedal, set
                  with sparkling jewels and hung on a heavy golden chain.
                  "This," he said, "commemorates our resolution, and is the badge of your
                  high office."
                  Inscribed on the medal Thorne read:

                  SHEB TAKKOR
                  Supreme Arbiter of Destiny
                  and
                  Custodian of Liberty
                  by the will of the
                  Associate Vilets
                  of Mars

                  The Vil snapped the chain around Thorne's neck, so the new medal, the
                  greatest badge of honor which the combined empires of Mars could bestow, flashed
                  and scintillated on his chest just above the Takkor medallion.
                  "I am overwhelmed, your majesty," said Thorne. "The nations of Mars
                  have placed too high a value on my poor services."

                  This sounds a lot like "warlord" to me.

                  << If you're interested, I could send you the draft articles directly.>>

                  I'd be very interested. Despite the occasional (okay, frequent) nitpicking,
                  I've enjoyed your analyses so far, even if I don't always agree 100% with the
                  conclusions.

                  AQPorter/Ivo Tengren


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                • jhuckenp@aol.com
                  ... Looking forward to seeing this. ... Have you read Lin Carter s THE VALLEY WHERE TIME STOOD STILL? AQPorter [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  Message 8 of 16 , Nov 21, 2006
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                    In a message dated 21/11/06 10:19:28, rikjohnson@... writes:

                    > I also just did a story (part 3 of a series) that takes Okar and Den's
                    > theory of isolated domed cities a step further.
                    >
                    Looking forward to seeing this.

                    > What if a city in an impact crater (valley) would enclose itself to
                    > survive the death of the planet.
                    >
                    Have you read Lin Carter's THE VALLEY WHERE TIME STOOD STILL?

                    AQPorter


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                  • Robert McCord
                    ... Another example of Well s martians vs Barsoom is Scarlet Traces: The Great Game Bob
                    Message 9 of 16 , Nov 22, 2006
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                      > Alternately, the more interesting approach might be a
                      > race war between Well's Martians and their allies, and
                      > the Human races. Several writers have actually
                      > touched on this, notably Allan Moore and George Alec
                      > Effinger.

                      Another example of Well's martians vs Barsoom is "Scarlet Traces: The
                      Great Game"

                      Bob
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