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Lothar

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  • Saroda Mara
    It seems that every Barsom map I see locates Lothar near Aaanthor, and both cities on the shores of the long-dead Sea of Torquas. Seems reasonable, as Lothar
    Message 1 of 18 , Jan 27, 2006
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      It seems that every Barsom map I see locates Lothar near Aaanthor, and
      both cities on the shores of the long-dead Sea of Torquas. Seems
      reasonable, as Lothar is certainly near Aaanthor in _Thuvia, Maid of
      Mars_.

      Problem is that, also in _Thuvia_, Kar Komak and Jav both speak of the
      ships of Lothar sailing Throxus. The result of all of this is that I
      don't know where to put Lothar, which is a problem, as much of my
      Ancient Barsoom role-playing campaign is set in and near Lothar.

      Anybody got any ideas about this?
    • archangelofmars
      Perhaps the Sea of Torquas is a smaller body of water feeding into the Throxus Ocean, similar to the relationship between the Adriatic and the Mediterranean
      Message 2 of 18 , Jan 27, 2006
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        Perhaps the Sea of Torquas is a smaller body of water feeding into
        the Throxus Ocean, similar to the relationship between the Adriatic
        and the Mediterranean seas.

        -Shawn


        --- In barsoom@yahoogroups.com, "Saroda Mara" <xenophile2002@y...> wrote:
        >
        > It seems that every Barsom map I see locates Lothar near Aaanthor, and
        > both cities on the shores of the long-dead Sea of Torquas. Seems
        > reasonable, as Lothar is certainly near Aaanthor in _Thuvia, Maid of
        > Mars_.
        >
        > Problem is that, also in _Thuvia_, Kar Komak and Jav both speak of the
        > ships of Lothar sailing Throxus. The result of all of this is that I
        > don't know where to put Lothar, which is a problem, as much of my
        > Ancient Barsoom role-playing campaign is set in and near Lothar.
        >
        > Anybody got any ideas about this?
        >
      • Rick Johnson
        Ok, a very casual look (I ll send a photograph tonight) shows Throxeus covering most of the northwith a large land mass extending to as far as 85N by 140E to
        Message 3 of 18 , Jan 27, 2006
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          Ok, a very casual look (I'll send a photograph tonight) shows Throxeus covering most of the northwith a large land mass extending to as far as 85N by 140E to 120W. The area between is Throxeus which ranges from 120W to 140E, from 0 to the pole.
          And there is a pennensula sticking like a triangle from 30W to 60E and pointing/ending at 70N.
          This pennensula devides Throxeus into West and East Throxeus.

          the River Iss starts at Koal which appears to be a sea-port then winds south then north to enter Korus at about 105W by 55S.

          The Mts of Torquas appear to be a mountain range/highland the enclosed the Bay of Torquas where Lothar is then these mts are surrounded by the Sea of Torquas which goes from 20S to 60S by 0 to 60E. So the Torquas MTs were a large island within the Torquas Sea.

          Around 60E by 20S there appears to be a straight that leads into a bay-like thing that goes north then empties into E. Throxeus at another straight at about 25N by 60E which makes Dusar another Sea-port.

          It looks to me likeAmhor was an island nation, Gathol an island on the shore of Throxeus, Koal, Dusar, Horz, Aaanthor and possibly Exum were sea-ports.

          There may be another sea-port city at:
          145E x 55N
          115W x 72N
          and a crescent island with city at 20E x 55N.

          This would mean that Dusar was like Istanbul and Gibralter, capable of controlling the only seaway from Throzeus to Torquas and would become rich with toll-charges.
          Amhor would be isolated like England and so reletivly safe except by sea attack.

          Koal, being on or near the Iss-Throxeus delta would be like Cairo or Luiasiana with potential for wealth and being conquered which would encourage isolation as the seas dried.

          Of cpourse, these are off the top of my head and a sketch map from my Mapping Barsoom article so need some fine-tuning.




          Rick Johnson, PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
          http://www.geocities.com/DesertHenge
          http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_ERB
          http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_RLJ


          Please note: message attached




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        • Jim Clunie
          Remind me how we know that Torquas is or was a sea? It is certainly the name of a green horde, known as such to both the Lotharians and the red men, whatever
          Message 4 of 18 , Jan 27, 2006
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            Remind me how we know that Torquas is or was a sea? It is certainly
            the name of a green horde, known as such to both the Lotharians and
            the red men, whatever we can deduce from that.

            Lothar was a stronghold of the white race since before the great
            migrations and was on the shores of Throxus. It's located in an
            immense valley with steep hills (mountains, really) visible on every
            side, though no doubt there is a winding entrance that leads out to
            the sea bottom. It's within walking distance of Aaanthor which was
            also a sea-port.

            Jim C

            On 1/28/06, Saroda Mara <xenophile2002@...> wrote:
            > It seems that every Barsom map I see locates Lothar near Aaanthor, and
            > both cities on the shores of the long-dead Sea of Torquas. Seems
            > reasonable, as Lothar is certainly near Aaanthor in _Thuvia, Maid of
            > Mars_.
            >
            > Problem is that, also in _Thuvia_, Kar Komak and Jav both speak of the
            > ships of Lothar sailing Throxus. The result of all of this is that I
            > don't know where to put Lothar, which is a problem, as much of my
            > Ancient Barsoom role-playing campaign is set in and near Lothar.
            >
            > Anybody got any ideas about this?
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Saroda Mara
            ... Good question. The maps I see put it in the Hellas Basin, which would certainly have been a sea. There seems to be a tendancy to call this old sea
            Message 5 of 18 , Jan 27, 2006
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              --- In barsoom, Jim Clunie wrote:

              > Remind me how we know that Torquas is or was a sea?

              Good question. The maps I see put it in the Hellas Basin, which would
              certainly have been a sea. There seems to be a tendancy to call this
              old sea Torquas, but it could just as easily be "the Aaanthor Sea" or
              "the Lothar Sea" or some other name altogether.

              > It is certainly the name of a green horde, known as such to both the
              > Lotharians and the red men, whatever we can deduce from that.

              Yes. Presumably there is a dead city called Torquas.

              > Lothar was a stronghold of the white race since before the great
              > migrations and was on the shores of Throxus. It's located in an
              > immense valley with steep hills (mountains, really) visible on every
              > side, though no doubt there is a winding entrance that leads out to
              > the sea bottom. It's within walking distance of Aaanthor which was
              > also a sea-port.

              After thinking on it all day, I have some dim recollection that the
              Lothar in _Thuvia_ was built by refugees. I think this comes from
              _Guide to Barsoom_, but it could be in _Thuvia_.

              So Kar Komak could've been one of these pre-migration peoples, from
              some city on Throxus, and might never have seen the city of Lothar in
              the Torquas Mountains until Tario materialized him.
            • jhuckenp@aol.com
              ... Most of the recent maps are based on ERB s own map of Barsoom that was published in Post s ATLAS OF FANTASY. Tangor has the original map in Lambert s
              Message 6 of 18 , Jan 27, 2006
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                In a message dated 27/1/06 11:21:52, xenophile2002@... writes:

                > Problem is that, also in _Thuvia_, Kar Komak and Jav both speak of the
                > ships of Lothar sailing Throxus.  The result of all of this is that I
                > don't know where to put Lothar, which is a problem, as much of my
                > Ancient Barsoom role-playing campaign is set in and near Lothar.
                >
                Most of the recent maps are based on ERB's own map of Barsoom that was
                published in Post's ATLAS OF FANTASY. Tangor has the original map in Lambert's
                projection (with latitude & longitude grid removed) at his ERBMANIA website; some
                years ago I converted it to a Mercator projection and Bill Hillman has posted
                it on his ERBzin-e website.

                Both cities were originally seaports along the coast of the Gulf of Torquas,
                which I suspect was an arm of the Throxeus Ocean. Den Valdron, Leathem
                Mahaffey and I are still haggling over its location on the NASA topographic maps.

                AQPorter


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jim Clunie
                ... Perhaps so. It s strange that the Lotharians should use the same name, when they knew this green horde before the ancient cities fell. ... I think I can
                Message 7 of 18 , Jan 27, 2006
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                  On 1/28/06, Saroda Mara <xenophile2002@...> wrote:
                  > --- In barsoom, Jim Clunie wrote:
                  >
                  > > Remind me how we know that Torquas is or was a sea?
                  >
                  > Good question. The maps I see put it in the Hellas Basin, which would
                  > certainly have been a sea. There seems to be a tendancy to call this
                  > old sea Torquas, but it could just as easily be "the Aaanthor Sea" or
                  > "the Lothar Sea" or some other name altogether.
                  >
                  > > It is certainly the name of a green horde, known as such to both the
                  > > Lotharians and the red men, whatever we can deduce from that.
                  >
                  > Yes. Presumably there is a dead city called Torquas.
                  >

                  Perhaps so. It's strange that the Lotharians should use the same name,
                  when they knew this green horde before the ancient cities fell.

                  > > Lothar was a stronghold of the white race since before the great
                  > > migrations and was on the shores of Throxus. It's located in an
                  > > immense valley with steep hills (mountains, really) visible on every
                  > > side, though no doubt there is a winding entrance that leads out to
                  > > the sea bottom. It's within walking distance of Aaanthor which was
                  > > also a sea-port.
                  >
                  > After thinking on it all day, I have some dim recollection that the
                  > Lothar in _Thuvia_ was built by refugees. I think this comes from
                  > _Guide to Barsoom_, but it could be in _Thuvia_.
                  >
                  > So Kar Komak could've been one of these pre-migration peoples, from
                  > some city on Throxus, and might never have seen the city of Lothar in
                  > the Torquas Mountains until Tario materialized him.
                  >

                  I think I can answer those from 'Thuvia':

                  "Women!" exclaimed Jav. "There are no women in Lothar. The last of the
                  Lotharian females perished ages since, upon that cruel and terrible
                  journey across the muddy plains that fringed the half-dried seas, when
                  the green hordes scourged us across the world to this our last
                  hiding-place--our impregnable fortress of Lothar.

                  "Scarce twenty thousand men of all the countless millions of our race
                  lived to reach Lothar. Among us were no women and no children. All
                  these had perished by the way."


                  "Good!" exclaimed the other, when he had done. "Kar Komak will
                  accompany you. Together we shall find the Princess of Ptarth and with
                  you Kar Komak will return to the world of men--such a world as he knew
                  in the long-gone past when the ships of mighty Lothar ploughed angry
                  Throxus, and the roaring surf beat against the barrier of these
                  parched and dreary hills."

                  "What mean you?" asked Carthoris. "Had you really a former actual existence?"

                  "Most assuredly," replied Kar Komak. "In my day I commanded the fleets
                  of Lothar--mightiest of all the fleets that sailed the five salt seas.
                  "


                  So Lothar was Kar Komak's home and is the last of the cities of the Orovars.

                  There are a few problems with this, foremost that Jav, who ought to
                  know, says that there is only one small entrance through the Lotharian
                  Hills, presumably the tunnel through which Thar Ban and Carthoris
                  entered. This would make it a bit difficult for the city to harbour
                  the mightiest sea-fleet on Barsoom.

                  Perhaps today's Lothar _was_ a new settlement built by refugees and
                  only took the name of the former sea-port.

                  Kar Komak believes himself to be a faithful recreation of a real man,
                  but he may be only a representation of Tario's knowledge of a
                  legendary figure. If that's the case, his knowledge may be no more
                  reliable than Tario himself, and the last jeddak shows every sign of
                  being nutty as a fruitcake.

                  Jim C
                • Saroda Mara
                  A second Lothar! Not yet existant in the time when my campaign takes place. But there could be some hidden cult of etherialists there. ^_^ I need to change
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jan 27, 2006
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                    A second Lothar! Not yet existant in the time when my campaign takes
                    place. But there could be some hidden cult of etherialists there. ^_^

                    I need to change my campaign maps.
                  • Jim Clunie
                    ... This map? http://www.erblist.com/abg/maps.html It looks to me as if the ERB-derived map shows Torquas as a city north of Lothar, but the Gulf of Torquas
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jan 27, 2006
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                      On 1/28/06, jhuckenp@... <jhuckenp@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > In a message dated 27/1/06 11:21:52, xenophile2002@... writes:
                      >
                      > > Problem is that, also in _Thuvia_, Kar Komak and Jav both speak of the
                      > > ships of Lothar sailing Throxus. The result of all of this is that I
                      > > don't know where to put Lothar, which is a problem, as much of my
                      > > Ancient Barsoom role-playing campaign is set in and near Lothar.
                      > >
                      > Most of the recent maps are based on ERB's own map of Barsoom that was
                      > published in Post's ATLAS OF FANTASY. Tangor has the original map in Lambert's
                      > projection (with latitude & longitude grid removed) at his ERBMANIA website; some
                      > years ago I converted it to a Mercator projection and Bill Hillman has posted
                      > it on his ERBzin-e website.
                      >
                      > Both cities were originally seaports along the coast of the Gulf of Torquas,
                      > which I suspect was an arm of the Throxeus Ocean. Den Valdron, Leathem
                      > Mahaffey and I are still haggling over its location on the NASA topographic maps.
                      >
                      > AQPorter
                      >

                      This map?

                      http://www.erblist.com/abg/maps.html

                      It looks to me as if the ERB-derived map shows Torquas as a city north
                      of Lothar, but the Gulf of Torquas appears on the Rev Heins' map only,
                      though you may know more about the Reverend's methods and sources for
                      that information.

                      Jim C
                    • Jim Clunie
                      ... With the map in front of me, it would work rather well if the original Lothar was at sea level (the lowest contour of the large upland drawn by ERB) due
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jan 27, 2006
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                        On 1/28/06, Jim Clunie <jim.clunie@...> wrote:

                        >
                        > Perhaps today's Lothar _was_ a new settlement built by refugees and
                        > only took the name of the former sea-port.
                        >

                        With the map in front of me, it would work rather well if the original
                        Lothar was at sea level (the lowest contour of the large upland drawn
                        by ERB) due east and somewhat north of the present Lothar. Thus the
                        refugees would indeed have to flee along the muddy coasts of a
                        dissipating sea. Their course to the cave entrance to the mountain
                        valley now called Lothar would not be straight and thus not easy for
                        the ancient green hordes to find.

                        Jim C
                      • jhuckenp@aol.com
                        ... Yep. That map. AQPorter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jan 28, 2006
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                          In a message dated 28/1/06 0:21:20, jim.clunie@... writes:

                          > This map?
                          >
                          > http://www.erblist.com/abg/maps.html
                          >
                          Yep. That map.

                          AQPorter


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Rick Johnson
                          Yes, that was my thought too. The original Lothar was on Throxeus then as the Orovars migrated and moved into the bay, they build or found another city and
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jan 28, 2006
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                            Yes, that was my thought too. The original Lothar was on Throxeus then as the Orovars migrated and moved into the bay, they build or found another city and named it Lothar just as "New" York was named after York in England.

                            I'm uploading my preliminary map of what I "THINK" Ancient Barsoom would look like. It's still in the prelim stages but the coastline is in red, the modern waterways in black and the black dots are ancient cities.
                            Lower Left hand is Dor, just to the right of lower center is Torquas with a bay that connects it to Throseux.
                            The Lowell Map shows a couple dots on the coast, one east of Dusar and one west of Duhor so I would guess that the one east of Dusar at 30N x 88E is old Lothar. The ancients would then follow the bay south because that would give water for the journey, even though it was drying up to become a lake then marsh then the Forest of Lost Souls.


                            Rick Johnson, PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
                            http://www.geocities.com/DesertHenge
                            http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_ERB
                            http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_RLJ


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                          • Rick Johnson
                            ... legendary figure. If that s the case, his knowledge may be no more reliable than Tario himself, and the last jeddak shows every sign of being nutty as a
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jan 28, 2006
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                              >>>Kar Komak believes himself to be a faithful recreation of a real man, but he may be only a representation of Tario's knowledge of a
                              legendary figure. If that's the case, his knowledge may be no more
                              reliable than Tario himself, and the last jeddak shows every sign of
                              being nutty as a fruitcake

                              There's the problem.
                              Kar Komak 2 isn't the original but what Tario believes Kar Komak to be. And after a half-million years, one tends to forget details and invent things so Kar Komak 2 is probably the 'ideal' of what Tario wanted the original to be.
                              Which means tha tthe original may have only been a Dwar of the Marines assigned to guard a single merchant ship and Tario romanticized his creation into something more.



                              Rick Johnson, PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
                              http://www.geocities.com/DesertHenge
                              http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_ERB
                              http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_RLJ


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                            • Saroda Mara
                              ... He may also have become Odwar of the Fleets of Lothar in his old age, but have been visualised as a young man with all the old man s history. He
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jan 28, 2006
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                                --- In barsoom, "Rick Johnson" wrote:

                                >> Kar Komak believes himself to be a faithful recreation of a real
                                >> man, but he may be only a representation of Tario's knowledge of a
                                >> legendary figure. If that's the case, his knowledge may be no more
                                >> reliable than Tario himself, and the last jeddak shows every sign
                                >> of being nutty as a fruitcake

                                > There's the problem.
                                > Kar Komak 2 isn't the original but what Tario believes Kar Komak to
                                > be. And after a half-million years, one tends to forget details and
                                > invent things so Kar Komak 2 is probably the 'ideal' of what Tario
                                > wanted the original to be.
                                > Which means tha tthe original may have only been a Dwar of the
                                > Marines assigned to guard a single merchant ship and Tario
                                > romanticized his creation into something more.

                                He may also have become "Odwar of the Fleets of Lothar" in his old
                                age, but have been visualised as a young man with all the old man's
                                history. He could've started his career as a panthan. Ideals are
                                that way.

                                Sort of as if a modern American were to materialise George Washington.
                                You'd have a man who never tells a lie, speaks in an unnaturally deep
                                voice, and is fantastically brave. He would probably NOT be a
                                womanizer, have any desire to own slaves, and not be a heavy drinker,
                                for all that these are traits of the original George Washington.

                                Which means that the player who plays KK in my campaign has a bit of
                                leeway. Though I suspect somwbody playing a Barsoom RPG is going to
                                make his character pretty heroic.
                              • Rick Johnson
                                Been trying to upload my maps on ancient Barsoom but keep getting this message that the system is down. Can t even get into Yahoo Groups. Rick Johnson, PO
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jan 28, 2006
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                                  Been trying to upload my maps on ancient Barsoom but keep getting this message that the system is down. Can't even get into Yahoo Groups.

                                  Rick Johnson, PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
                                  http://www.geocities.com/DesertHenge
                                  http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_ERB
                                  http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_RLJ


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                                • Saroda Mara
                                  Sorry you re having trouble uploading the map. I am looking forward to seeing it.
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jan 28, 2006
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                                    Sorry you're having trouble uploading the map. I am looking forward
                                    to seeing it.
                                  • Rick Johnson
                                    Re the maps: I finally shut the computer down and took my daughter to see Underworld. Why do soldiers and cops empty a couple magazines into a monster with NO
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Jan 28, 2006
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                                      Re the maps:
                                      I finally shut the computer down and took my daughter to see Underworld. Why do soldiers and cops empty a couple magazines into a monster with NO effect, then think that if they fired another mag, that one will work?
                                      I'd use one round in the skull then RUN!!!!

                                      Then got back and got the maps uploaded to the Photo Section under Rick Johnson's Maps.

                                      Be aware that the one I uploaded was freehand and once I get the main one photocopied under 50%, I can have a smaller good map.


                                      Rick Johnson, PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
                                      http://www.geocities.com/DesertHenge
                                      http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_ERB
                                      http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_RLJ


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                                    • Saroda Mara
                                      Thanks you for posting this. I will look them over during daylight hours and see what I can do, campaign-wise. A quick look now indicates that I will find it
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Jan 29, 2006
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                                        Thanks you for posting this. I will look them over during daylight
                                        hours and see what I can do, campaign-wise. A quick look now
                                        indicates that I will find it quite useful.
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