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Re: [barsoom] The River Iss

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  • Den Valdron
    Converting to a globe is a level of skill I just don t have. I take my hat off to you. ... The solution is to create our maps, the modified ERB, the modified
    Message 1 of 30 , Dec 9 4:41 PM
      Converting to a globe is a level of skill I just don't
      have. I take my hat off to you.


      --- Rick Johnson <rikjohnson@...> wrote:


      ---------------------------------
      The solution is to create our maps, the modified ERB,
      the modified NASA/MOLA and the modified Lowell maps,
      convert them to globes (I'm doing that too) then
      reread to entire series with globe at hand and see
      what makes sense.

      Well, the mapping project has been going on for some
      90+ years, a few more months won't hurt.

      THEN, once we have reconciled the data, someone will
      say, "oops, the computer got some dust and all the
      MOLA data was off a few degrees to a dozen degrees
      depending on the time the glitches kicked in and out.
      Here is the real data."

      And we get to do this all over again.


      Rick Johnson, PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
      http://www.geocities.com/DesertHenge
      http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson69
      http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_ERB
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TucsonPaganPaddlers/

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    • jhuckenp@aol.com
      ... Not necessarily -- depends on the time of year. In the Antarctic winter, the ice cap comes down to about 35º and covers most of Hellas; in summer it
      Message 2 of 30 , Dec 9 11:08 PM
        In a message dated 9/12/05 9:06:12, dgvaldron@... writes:

        > But if we're looking at craters, then we're outside the actual ice cap?
        >
        Not necessarily -- depends on the time of year. In the Antarctic winter,
        the ice cap comes down to about 35º and covers most of Hellas; in summer it
        dwindles to almost small enough to spit across.

        There's less variation in the Arctic ice cap -- it doesn't extend as far into
        the temperate zone in winter and doesn't contract as much in summer, so Okar
        and Panar will be perpetually icebound. But during the Antarctic summer, I
        see most of the route to Valley Dor being ice-free.

        Banard is at about latitude -62º, south of Hellas, and Barnard is at about
        -68º, south of Argyre. For the moment I'm favoring Barnard, the larger of the
        two, but will investigate further.

        AQPorter


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • jhuckenp@aol.com
        ... Den -- Unless I m badly misreading your second map, it appears that both references are to Phillips. The first one definitely is. How big are these
        Message 3 of 30 , Dec 9 11:43 PM
          In a message dated 9/12/05 9:43:09, dgvaldron@... writes:


          >
          > http://ltpwww.gsfc.nasa.gov/tharsis/Mars_topography_from_MOLA/M_-50_-40_-70_-60.html
          >
          > Possible, although there doesn't seem to be a lot of
          > pronounced highland or upland territory that would
          > represent the Otz mountains.
          >
          > Or this one, located between 70 and 75 latitude,
          > around 270 and 300 longitude?
          >
          > http://ltpwww.gsfc.nasa.gov/tharsis/map_lab.html
          >
          Den --

          Unless I'm badly misreading your second map, it appears that both references
          are to Phillips. The first one definitely is.

          How big are these craters?   Romantically, I think of Korus as a 'lost sea',
          a substantial body of water, rather than a 'concealed lake.'

          A degree of longitude at the equator is about 36.7 mi.; Phillips crater
          appears to be about 140 mi. in diameter. I guess it depends on where you put the
          dividing line between "sea" and "lake" -- I figure if it covers most of the
          interior of the crater it will have an area of approximately 15,000 sq. mi.

          AQPorter


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Den Valdron
          ... appears that both references are to Phillips. The first one definitely is. I might be the one badly misreading my own map. Phillips it is though. ...
          Message 4 of 30 , Dec 10 7:10 AM
            >Unless I'm badly misreading your second map, it
            appears that both references
            are to Phillips. The first one definitely is.

            I might be the one badly misreading my own map.
            Phillips it is though.

            >A degree of longitude at the equator is about 36.7
            mi.; Phillips crater
            appears to be about 140 mi. in diameter. I guess it
            depends on where you put the
            dividing line between "sea" and "lake" -- I figure if
            it covers most of the
            interior of the crater it will have an area of
            approximately 15,000 sq. mi.

            That's pretty healthy.






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          • Den Valdron
            ... appears that both references are to Phillips. The first one definitely is. I might be the one badly misreading my own map. Phillips it is though. ...
            Message 5 of 30 , Dec 10 7:10 AM
              >Unless I'm badly misreading your second map, it
              appears that both references
              are to Phillips. The first one definitely is.

              I might be the one badly misreading my own map.
              Phillips it is though.

              >A degree of longitude at the equator is about 36.7
              mi.; Phillips crater
              appears to be about 140 mi. in diameter. I guess it
              depends on where you put the
              dividing line between "sea" and "lake" -- I figure if
              it covers most of the
              interior of the crater it will have an area of
              approximately 15,000 sq. mi.

              That's pretty healthy.






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            • Den Valdron
              The map function is cool. I ll have to get out the scotch tape. __________________________________________________________ Find your next car at
              Message 6 of 30 , Dec 10 7:29 AM
                The map function is cool. I'll have to get out the
                scotch tape.






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              • Rick Johnson
                ... This explains why most of the waterways come from the north. It would be easier to build melting and pumpins stations along a permanant icecap. In the
                Message 7 of 30 , Dec 10 8:11 AM
                  >>depends on the time of year. In the Antarctic winter, the ice cap comes down to about 35� and covers most of Hellas; in summer it dwindles to almost small enough to spit across.
                  >>There's less variation in the Arctic ice cap -- it doesn't extend as far into the temperate zone in winter and doesn't contract as much in summer, so Okar and Panar will be perpetually icebound.

                  This explains why most of the waterways come from the north. It would be easier to build melting and pumpins stations along a permanant icecap.
                  In the Antartic, you'd have to build almost to the pole and half the year, your waterways would be totally frozen over with resulting ice-damage.

                  Interesting how this tends to loosly fit each other.

                  It would alos tend to explain why all the major hoards of Green Men are in the south. There would be an 'understanding' among the Red Men to mutually protect the waterways (in the north) and not take all the water but allow it to flow to the southern nations. This would force the Green Men to avoid these for fear of total destruction by the well-armed military on these waterways.
                  Note that in _Princess_ the Green Men had to sneak across the waterways. This implies a large and very strong military presence along these lines that scared even the Tharks.

                  As the Red Men developed and expanded their position, they drove the barbaric Green Men into the least desirable areas which had no or few waterways.
                  Sounds a lot like what the US did to the Indians. Move into their country in small numbers, buy what we needed then as the population grew, buy more land until we were powerful enough to start to take land from them. Once we were powerful enough, we pushed the Indians into the worst lands.
                  It now occurs to me that the Red Man -v- Green Man is an allegory to the US -vs- American Indian history. Which leads someone to write a history of the conquest of Barsoom from the Green Man side.



                  Rick Johnson, PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
                  http://www.geocities.com/DesertHenge http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson69
                  http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_ERB
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TucsonPaganPaddlers/

                  Please note: message attached




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                • jhuckenp@aol.com
                  ... This should read Barnard is at about latitude -62º, south of Hellas, and Phillips is at about -68º, south of Argyre. For the moment I m favoring
                  Message 8 of 30 , Dec 10 9:08 AM
                    In a message dated 10/12/05 1:18:54, jhuckenp@... writes:


                    > Banard is at about latitude -62º, south of Hellas, and Barnard is at about
                    > -68º, south of Argyre.   For the moment I'm favoring Barnard, the larger of
                    > the
                    > two, but will investigate further.
                    >
                    This should read "Barnard is at about latitude -62º, south of Hellas, and
                    Phillips is at about -68º, south of Argyre. For the moment I'm favoring
                    Phillips..." I was getting too tired to proofread...

                    AQPorter


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Den Valdron
                    It s cool. I figured it out. Phillips is a good candidate in terms of meeting various criteria. ... and Barnard is at about ... Barnard, the larger of ...
                    Message 9 of 30 , Dec 10 9:23 AM
                      It's cool. I figured it out. Phillips is a good
                      candidate in terms of meeting various criteria.

                      >In a message dated 10/12/05 1:18:54, jhuckenp@...
                      writes:

                      > Banard is at about latitude -62º, south of Hellas,
                      and Barnard is at about
                      > -68º, south of Argyre.   For the moment I'm favoring
                      Barnard, the larger of
                      > the
                      > two, but will investigate further.
                      >
                      This should read "Barnard is at about latitude -62º,
                      south of Hellas, and
                      Phillips is at about -68º, south of Argyre. For the
                      moment I'm favoring
                      Phillips..." I was getting too tired to proofread...

                      AQPorter


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                    • Den Valdron
                      ... Quite interesting. Kline s Mars novels are set in the northern Hemisphere, arguably in a piece of Mars left blank by Burroughs, and canals are quite
                      Message 10 of 30 , Dec 10 11:38 AM
                        > This explains why most of the waterways come from
                        > the north. It would be easier to build melting and
                        > pumpins stations along a permanant icecap.
                        > In the Antartic, you'd have to build almost to the
                        > pole and half the year, your waterways would be
                        > totally frozen over with resulting ice-damage.
                        >
                        > Interesting how this tends to loosly fit each other.

                        Quite interesting. Kline's Mars novels are set in the
                        northern Hemisphere, arguably in a piece of Mars left
                        blank by Burroughs, and canals are quite prominent in
                        them.

                        > It would alos tend to explain why all the major
                        > hoards of Green Men are in the south.
                        > As the Red Men developed and expanded their
                        > position, they drove the barbaric Green Men into the
                        > least desirable areas which had no or few waterways.
                        >
                        > Sounds a lot like what the US did to the Indians.
                        > It now occurs to me that the Red Man -v- Green Man
                        > is an allegory to the US -vs- American Indian
                        > history. Which leads someone to write a history of
                        > the conquest of Barsoom from the Green Man side.

                        There's more than a little bit too that. I think
                        Burroughs modeled his Green Men on the red indians,
                        picking up bits of Apache, Comanche, Blackfoot, Plains
                        Cree, Sioux, etc.

                        Speaking in terms of economies, it strikes me that
                        life in the Southern Hemisphere would be much more
                        intensely seasonal with the vast expansion and
                        contraction of the polar snows. It would be much more
                        difficult to find stable environments that would
                        support year round living, and so the terrain would
                        select for a nomadic lifestyle, moving back and forth,
                        up and down with the seasons. Which just happens to
                        be the Green Man's lifestyle in the books.






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                      • Den Valdron
                        ... mi.; Phillips crater appears to be about 140 mi. in diameter. I guess it depends on where you put the dividing line between sea and lake -- I figure
                        Message 11 of 30 , Dec 12 7:15 AM
                          Huckenpohlar writes:

                          >A degree of longitude at the equator is about 36.7
                          mi.; Phillips crater
                          appears to be about 140 mi. in diameter. I guess it
                          depends on where you put the
                          dividing line between "sea" and "lake" -- I figure if
                          it covers most of the
                          interior of the crater it will have an area of
                          approximately 15,000 sq. mi.

                          Hmmm. Okay, so 140 mile diameter would translate to a
                          circumference of about 440 miles.

                          At Chapter Eight of the Gods of Mars, we have this
                          exchange, previously quoted:

                          * * * * * *

                          "What course?" I asked him.

                          "A little west of south," he replied. "You will see
                          the Otz Valley directly. We shall skirt it for a few
                          hundred miles."

                          "The Otz Valley!" I exclaimed; "but, man, is not there
                          where lie the domains of the therns from which I but
                          just escaped?"

                          * * * * * * *

                          They're going to skirt the Otz Valley for a few
                          hundred miles? A few is more than one, at least two,
                          possibly three or four. So if Otz/Dor/Korus is
                          Phillips then Xodar intends to circumnavigate at least
                          half of, or as much as 3/4 or more of its
                          circumference on his way to Omean.

                          On the face of it, this seems unlikely, and our
                          candidate for Otz/Dor/Korus may well have to have a
                          much bigger circumference.

                          On the other hand, Xodar may have been coming straight
                          down, directly north of Otz/Dor/Korus and actually has
                          to circumnavigate half its circumference. Or he might
                          be travelling a proscribed route. Or he might have
                          something else up his sleeve.

                          Something to think about.

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