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Re: new guy here and anatomy

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  • Javier
    However, Kantos Kan has a regular sword and is badly overmatched in ... his ... weapon, and thus ... would be ... My assumption was that Kantos Kan was
    Message 1 of 30 , Mar 9 7:32 AM
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      However, Kantos Kan has a regular sword and is badly overmatched in
      > many of his battles, winning his last by throwing his sword into
      his
      > opponent's chest. If Carter was carrying a 5 or 6 foot long
      weapon, and thus
      > came closer to the reach of a green man, his comment on weaponry
      would be
      > explained.

      My assumption was that Kantos Kan was overmatched not because of his
      sword but because he simply was not as Good of a swordsman as the
      Green Man.

      Regarding a larger Green mans "long-Sword" The green men do not
      manufacture. At least as far as I recall. So how do they make
      weapons specific for themselves?

      As for Tars Tarkas taking swings with his "Great Sword", I always
      took that as ERB at his best just exagerating something to make an
      impression. Perfect example, John carter is described often as a
      White Giant. He is 6'2" in a world of men who average 6'. Maybe
      Tall but clearly not a giant.
    • Javier
      I guess this discussion of GM weaponry hinges on one thing, Do GM s manufacture? I know they manufacture radium bullets, so they have some kind of Mining
      Message 2 of 30 , Mar 9 7:34 AM
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        I guess this discussion of GM weaponry hinges on one thing, Do GM's
        manufacture? I know they manufacture radium bullets, so they have
        some kind of Mining facility. I thought I read somewhere that they
        don't. But then how can they make tribal specific harnesses and
        insignia such as "Thark Metal and weaponry" for use on their
        harnesses?
      • Javier
        I guess this discussion of GM weaponry hinges on one thing, Do GM s manufacture? I know they manufacture radium bullets, so they have some kind of Mining
        Message 3 of 30 , Mar 9 7:34 AM
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          I guess this discussion of GM weaponry hinges on one thing, Do GM's
          manufacture? I know they manufacture radium bullets, so they have
          some kind of Mining facility. I thought I read somewhere that they
          don't. But then how can they make tribal specific harnesses and
          insignia such as "Thark Metal and weaponry" for use on their
          harnesses?
        • Jeff Doten
          Isn t it the Green WOMEN who manufacture ? It makes no sense culturally, but ERB wasn t really concerned about such things. I think the mention is in the early
          Message 4 of 30 , Mar 9 7:45 AM
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            Isn't it the Green WOMEN who manufacture ? It makes no sense culturally, but ERB wasn't really concerned about such things. I think the mention is in the early chapters of Princess - Jeff


            On Tuesday, March 09, 2004, at 07:34AM, Javier <jg_65@...> wrote:

            >I guess this discussion of GM weaponry hinges on one thing, Do GM's
            >manufacture? I know they manufacture radium bullets, so they have
            >some kind of Mining facility. I thought I read somewhere that they
            >don't. But then how can they make tribal specific harnesses and
            >insignia such as "Thark Metal and weaponry" for use on their
            >harnesses?
            >
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          • Rick Johnson
            Perhaps not. GM are raiders and warriors. I would suggest that they raided caravans and cities and mines and so on for the materials that they needed. Then
            Message 5 of 30 , Mar 9 8:28 AM
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              Perhaps not.
              GM are raiders and warriors. I would suggest that they raided caravans and cities and mines and so on for the materials that they needed.

              Then their women would cut the hides into leather harness to fit their men. They would take the ore, refine it to the radium powder for their bullets and do simple modifications to weapons and yewelry to fit GM anatomy, needs and society.

              If the GM limbs are the same thickness as human, then the jewelry would only need be modified as to artistic design to convert a blank arm-band to one with Tharkian insignia.



              >>>I guess this discussion of GM weaponry hinges on one thing, Do GM's
              manufacture? I know they manufacture radium bullets, so they have
              some kind of Mining facility. I thought I read somewhere that they
              don't. But then how can they make tribal specific harnesses and
              insignia such as "Thark Metal and weaponry" for use on their
              harnesses?


              *****
              Rick Johnson
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            • Javier
              Assuming that is the case that GM s do not manufacture, then their only source of weapons were the plunder rom raides on the red men. Therfore the long sword a
              Message 6 of 30 , Mar 9 4:30 PM
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                Assuming that is the case that GM's do not manufacture, then their
                only source of weapons were the plunder rom raides on the red men.
                Therfore the long sword a red man uses is the same as the one a
                Green man uses. And a shorts sword is the same for both red and
                green and so on.

                --- In barsoom@yahoogroups.com, Rick Johnson <rikjohnson@j...> wrote:
                >
                > Perhaps not.
                > GM are raiders and warriors. I would suggest that they raided
                caravans and cities and mines and so on for the materials that they
                needed.
                >
              • Jim Clunie
                Not a good assumption. Greens mine radium and build incubators (which means that they manufacture large pieces of glass). I ll check later whether there is any
                Message 7 of 30 , Mar 9 5:42 PM
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                  Not a good assumption. Greens mine radium and build incubators (which means
                  that they manufacture large pieces of glass).

                  I'll check later whether there is any description of where they get their
                  rifles.

                  Jim C


                  >From: "Javier" <jg_65@...>

                  >
                  >Assuming that is the case that GM's do not manufacture, then their
                  >only source of weapons were the plunder rom raides on the red men.
                  >Therfore the long sword a red man uses is the same as the one a
                  >Green man uses. And a shorts sword is the same for both red and
                  >green and so on.
                  >
                  >--- In barsoom@yahoogroups.com, Rick Johnson <rikjohnson@j...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Perhaps not.
                  > > GM are raiders and warriors. I would suggest that they raided
                  >caravans and cities and mines and so on for the materials that they
                  >needed.
                  > >

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                • Saroda Mara
                  ... I don t know that they *mine* radium. I think that they snatch a lot of ammo in raids, and make the rest from radium scavenged from airship engines. I
                  Message 8 of 30 , Mar 9 6:18 PM
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                    --- In barsoom, "Jim Clunie" wrote:

                    > Not a good assumption. Greens mine radium and build incubators (which
                    > means that they manufacture large pieces of glass).

                    I don't know that they *mine* radium. I think that they snatch a lot
                    of ammo in raids, and make the rest from radium scavenged from airship
                    engines. I don't think that they do any mining at all.

                    The incubators are a problem. These are obviously something the GM
                    *build*. So where does the glass come from? It's hard to believe
                    that they manufacture it (isn't large-scale production of clear glass
                    a rather sophisticated industry?), but I can't see how else it is done.

                    > I'll check later whether there is any description of where they get
                    > their rifles.
                    >
                    > Jim C

                    Looking forward to this.


                    Xenophile (who thinks a glass-raiding party would be... interesting)
                  • Javier
                    Ultimatly, I believe we will end up reading too much into it so to speak. ERB is about the adventure not about scientific fact. As I read these posts I
                    Message 9 of 30 , Mar 9 9:19 PM
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                      Ultimatly, I believe we will end up "reading too much into it" so to
                      speak. ERB is about the adventure not about scientific fact. As I
                      read these posts I realize there is alot that may not make sense. I
                      did reread the section in Princess of mars where JC stated the GM
                      woman makes all including firearms. But how could they? where do
                      they get their metal from? If they do manufacture then ERB did not
                      go into enough detail to support any of it (ie explain where they
                      get their raw materials from). We must simply accept.
                      So going back to the whole sword length problem. I still recall
                      somewhere where he described a long sword and my impression has
                      always been that they all use the same type of weaponry. The only
                      exception being the 40 foot lance that the GM's use. Also I gues in
                      Whelens cover of Gods of Mars Tars Tarkas and JC are using swords of
                      teh same length, which as compared to JC appear to be about 3 feet
                      in length.
                    • Hugh Singh
                      Remember gang, the afgans made rifles from weapons stolen from the British up and including the serial numbers, all this with hand held, non power tools.
                      Message 10 of 30 , Mar 9 9:33 PM
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                        Remember gang, the afgans made rifles from weapons stolen from the
                        British up and including the serial numbers, all this with hand held,
                        non power tools. Because a culture has no Technology they are not
                        primititive, just unpowered.
                        Hugh


                        Javier wrote:

                        > Ultimatly, I believe we will end up "reading too much into it" so to
                        > speak. ERB is about the adventure not about scientific fact. As I
                        > read these posts I realize there is alot that may not make sense. I
                        > did reread the section in Princess of mars where JC stated the GM
                        > woman makes all including firearms. But how could they? where do
                        > they get their metal from? If they do manufacture then ERB did not
                        > go into enough detail to support any of it (ie explain where they
                        > get their raw materials from). We must simply accept.
                        > So going back to the whole sword length problem. I still recall
                        > somewhere where he described a long sword and my impression has
                        > always been that they all use the same type of weaponry. The only
                        > exception being the 40 foot lance that the GM's use. Also I gues in
                        > Whelens cover of Gods of Mars Tars Tarkas and JC are using swords of
                        > teh same length, which as compared to JC appear to be about 3 feet
                        > in length.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                      • jhuckenp@aol.com
                        ... ERB was writing an adventure story, not an economic textbook. There s clearly a lot going on in the background , so to speak, that ERB does not discuss
                        Message 11 of 30 , Mar 9 10:56 PM
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                          In a message dated 3/10/04 12:20:24 AM, jg_65@... writes:

                          > ERB is about the adventure not about scientific fact.  As I read these
                          > posts I realize there is alot that may not make sense.  I did reread the section
                          > in Princess of mars where JC stated the GM
                          > woman makes all including firearms.  But how could they?  where do they get
                          > their metal from?   If they do manufacture then ERB did not go into enough
                          > detail to support any of it (ie explain where they get their raw materials
                          > from).
                          >
                          ERB was writing an adventure story, not an economic textbook. There's
                          clearly a lot going on "in the background", so to speak, that ERB does not discuss
                          -- industry, commerce, R&D, international trade -- does Adam Smith's
                          "invisible hand" operate on Barsoom or are there tariff barriers? Is research
                          carried on in government laboratories, industrial laboratories, universities, or
                          some combination of all three? (Ras Thavas is the exception; he clearly
                          operates his own laboratory as what we would call a private foundation.)

                          One of these days I may do a study of Barsoomian economics (based on scarce
                          hints given in the books) for an APA contribution...

                          AQPorter


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Jim Clunie
                          ... They certainly did loot Dejah Thoris warship from stem to stern, including arms and ammunition (but not the engines. Cannon shells, another likely source,
                          Message 12 of 30 , Mar 10 2:31 AM
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                            >From: "Saroda Mara" <xenophile2002@...>

                            >
                            >--- In barsoom, "Jim Clunie" wrote:
                            >
                            > > Not a good assumption. Greens mine radium and build incubators (which
                            > > means that they manufacture large pieces of glass).
                            >
                            >I don't know that they *mine* radium. I think that they snatch a lot
                            >of ammo in raids, and make the rest from radium scavenged from airship
                            >engines. I don't think that they do any mining at all.
                            >

                            They certainly did loot Dejah Thoris' warship from stem to stern, including
                            arms and ammunition (but not the engines. Cannon shells, another likely
                            source, weren't mentioned specifically). I thought I saw a reference to
                            mines - can't find any radium mines, but the greens do (grudgingly) mine
                            mineral oil for their gas hand-lamps, which are surely less important to
                            them than their weapons. This, by the way, I'd guess is the same fuel that
                            they poured all over the warship before burning it.

                            Dejah Thoris was put to work "down in the pits below the buildings helping
                            them mix their awful radium powder, and make their terrible projectiles",
                            which seems to be normal and suitable work for a woman in a chieftain's
                            retinue.

                            >The incubators are a problem. These are obviously something the GM
                            >*build*. So where does the glass come from? It's hard to believe
                            >that they manufacture it (isn't large-scale production of clear glass
                            >a rather sophisticated industry?), but I can't see how else it is done.
                            >
                            > > I'll check later whether there is any description of where they get
                            > > their rifles.
                            > >
                            > > Jim C
                            >
                            >Looking forward to this.
                            >

                            No problem:

                            "The metal of the barrel is an alloy composed principally of aluminum and
                            steel which **they have learned to temper** to a hardness far exceeding that
                            of the steel with which we are familiar."

                            "The training of myself and the young Martians was conducted solely by the
                            women, who not only attend to the education of the young in the arts of
                            individual defense and offense, but are also the artisans who produce every
                            manufactured article wrought by the green Martians. They make the powder,
                            the cartridges, **the firearms**; in fact everything of value is produced by
                            the females."

                            My emphasis.

                            A couple of other interesting technical details:

                            - about 20 green warriors easing the fall of a descending airship using
                            their spears
                            - chariots with enomous broad (pneumatic?) tires

                            >
                            >Xenophile (who thinks a glass-raiding party would be... interesting)

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                          • Saroda Mara
                            ... The Afgans *did* have technology, just not electricity. Hand held, non power tools are technology... even flint arrowheads are technology.
                            Message 13 of 30 , Mar 10 10:48 AM
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                              --- In barsoom, Hugh Singh wrote:

                              > Remember gang, the afgans made rifles from weapons stolen from the
                              > British up and including the serial numbers, all this with hand
                              > held, non power tools. Because a culture has no Technology they are
                              > not primititive, just unpowered.
                              > Hugh

                              <nitpick>
                              The Afgans *did* have technology, just not electricity. Hand held,
                              non power tools are technology... even flint arrowheads are technology.
                              <nitpick/>
                            • Saroda Mara
                              ... Is it clear that nothing was done with the engines? If so, then the GM are wasting quite a resource. Then again, if *radium ** is worthles as a raw
                              Message 14 of 30 , Mar 10 11:28 AM
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                                --- In barsoom, "Jim Clunie" wrote:

                                >>From: "Saroda Mara"

                                >> I don't know that they *mine* radium. I think that they snatch a
                                >> lot of ammo in raids, and make the rest from radium scavenged from
                                >> airship engines. I don't think that they do any mining at all.

                                > They certainly did loot Dejah Thoris' warship from stem to stern,
                                > including arms and ammunition (but not the engines. Cannon shells,
                                > another likely source, weren't mentioned specifically). I thought I

                                Is it clear that nothing was done with the engines? If so, then the
                                GM are wasting quite a resource. Then again, if *radium ** is
                                worthles as a raw material for making radium *powder*, then it
                                wouldn't be worth saving. Cannon shells seem a likely source.

                                > saw a reference to mines - can't find any radium mines, but the
                                > greens do (grudgingly) mine mineral oil for their gas hand-lamps,
                                > which are surely less important to them than their weapons. This, by
                                > the way, I'd guess is the same fuel that they poured all over the
                                > warship before burning it.

                                Do they mine the mineral oil? I thought they looted it. I need to
                                check on this. I do remember that they have a limited supply, due to
                                their hatred for manual labor.

                                > Dejah Thoris was put to work "down in the pits below the buildings
                                > helping them mix their awful radium powder, and make their terrible
                                > projectiles", which seems to be normal and suitable work for a woman
                                > in a chieftain's retinue.

                                Yes. DT herself seems to accept this as such.

                                >> The incubators are a problem. These are obviously something the GM
                                >> *build*. So where does the glass come from? It's hard to believe
                                >> that they manufacture it (isn't large-scale production of clear
                                >> glass a rather sophisticated industry?), but I can't see how else it
                                >> is done.

                                >>> I'll check later whether there is any description of where they get
                                >>> their rifles.
                                >>>
                                >>> Jim C

                                >> Looking forward to this.

                                > No problem:
                                >
                                > "The metal of the barrel is an alloy composed principally of aluminum
                                > and steel which **they have learned to temper** to a hardness far
                                > exceeding that of the steel with which we are familiar."

                                Yes. I had assumed that such tempering was done by the Reds, but...

                                > "The training of myself and the young Martians was conducted solely
                                > by the women, who not only attend to the education of the young in
                                > the arts of individual defense and offense, but are also the artisans
                                >who produce every manufactured article wrought by the green Martians.
                                > They make the powder, the cartridges, **the firearms**; in fact
                                > everything of value is produced by the females."
                                >
                                > My emphasis.

                                That settles it: the Green women make the rifles. Thus, the GM (or,
                                more precisely, the GW) *do* manufacture, just on the scale or
                                sophistication of the Reds. They would've had to make the spears, and
                                this allows for the manufacture of rare and occasional "great-swords."

                                > A couple of other interesting technical details:
                                >
                                > - about 20 green warriors easing the fall of a descending airship
                                > using their spears

                                This will look cool, if they keep it in the movie.

                                > - chariots with enomous broad (pneumatic?) tires

                                I guess they could've been zitadar-hide stuffed with ochar moss.

                                Xenophile (who *still* thinks a glass-raiding party would be...
                                interesting)
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