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RE: [barbershopquartet] It's softball time

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  • Stancil, Chris
    I believe you have to be very honest with your and your quartets ability. Starting out with a new quartet you don t want to charge much as you need to build
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 26, 2010
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      I believe you have to be very honest with your and your quartets ability.  Starting out with a new quartet you don't want to charge much as you need to build repetoire and confidence.  I had a quartet that spent an entire night singing Irish songs on St Patricks day for the experience (and a free round of beer).  We sang at many places and each one was as different as you can imagine.  The biggest audience was on Greenville in Dallas and it showed a need to be able to adjust to the environment to keep your sound.
       
      For local gigs other than non-profit/charity events the minumum was $35.00.  We soon upped to $50.00.  This was over 10 years ago.
       
      We were never going to be in the hunt for District contest but we could be entertaining.
       
      Know your abilities.
       
      Chris Stancil
      Lead
      Harmonically Challenged


      From: barbershopquartet@yahoogroups.com [mailto:barbershopquartet@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Edward Headley
      Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 2:43 PM
      To: barbershopquartet@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [barbershopquartet] It's softball time

       

      John,
       
      What a great topic !    I have often asked myself these very same questions... ....only I don't have any rationale 'thought out' as of yet, so I am going to have to 'sit on the bench' and try to learn from the other Batters I see who 'step-up' to the plate !
       
      On a personal note:  I have yet to be able to form a COMPETITIVE QUARTET in my area, so this topic is 'down the line' BUT I WANT TO KNOW THE ANSWERS , TOO !
       
      GREAT QUESTIONS and good rationale behind them, John !   What a great email !
      Thanks for 'putting down on paper' what I am certain a lot of quartetters are asking !
       
      Best Regards,
       
      Ed Headley
      Bass
      Portland Downeasters Barbershop Chorus


      Edward W. Headley
      P.O. Box 10631
      Portland, Maine 04104-6031
      (207) 773-9766 (phone)
      (207) 773-4981 (fax)

      --- On Tue, 1/26/10, John <jg62bbshop@yahoo. com> wrote:

      From: John <jg62bbshop@yahoo. com>
      Subject: [barbershopquartet] It's softball time
      To: barbershopquartet@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Tuesday, January 26, 2010, 2:21 PM

       
      All right, I'll pitch. Each of you grab a bat and get in line and take a few swings.


      Pricing/Charging for gigs

      I don't want to hear about why you *don't* charge for gigs. I want to know how much you charge and how you decided on what that charge should be.

      Before you read any further, please do this one little thing. Think, for a few minutes, on what your time is worth. How much would you charge someone for JUST YOU (not a quartet) to go sing for an hour? $10? $20? $30? Think about it like this...  it's 3:00 in the afternoon and someone wants you to come and sing tonight for an hour at 7:00. Just you. Forget about all the "what-ifs" and "buts". Just go with it. What would make it worth your while to drop whatever your doing, whatever you had planned and travel, say, 20 minutes somewhere and sing for an hour? Write that number down.


      I have a friend who said that a 1/2 hour quartet should always start at $400 minimum. I know there are a lot of people out there that think that is really high. Especially for *their* area. "People just won't pay that". You're wrong. I believe it would surprise you just how much people WOULD pay.

      Have you ever ASKED what their budget is first? You may be thinking of bidding $400 and come to find out their budget is $1500 for entertainment! Don't think that highly of yourselves? (That begins a whole other conversation. ) Then give them a $1000 package.

      What would you charge for a regular 1/2 hour gig?
      What would you charge for a 2 hour "stroller" gig? (This is one where you would 'stroll' around singing, say at a convention center or fair.)
      What would you charge for a "reverse stroller"? (One where you stand in one place as people walk by, say at the entrance of a convention center.)
      What would you charge for a chapter show where you sing just TWO songs?
      What would you charge for a chapter show where you are the featured quartet doing a fully 1/2 hour set?
      What would you charge for 2 songs at a wedding? (I have experience on this one. I'm anxious to see your responses.)
      What would you charge for a 1/2 hour set at a convention attended by 10,000 people?

      Do you just try to come up with something that "feels" right?
      Do you keep everything below the tax reporting limit of $600?
      Do you charge by the hour? Per person?
      Do you charge per song?
      Do you charge according to the venue/seating capacity? (Do you charge differently for a 200-seat venue versus a 1500-seat venue?)
      Do you consider what it took to get you to the point to be able to do that gig? (Time in finding a quartet, administration, rehearsing, cost of outfits, travel, coaching, etc.? This isn't the same as hey, can you come over and help me move a couch.)
      Do you consider that the revenue that is being pulled in on that show is in part because you are on that show?

      I hope you all weigh in on this so we can have comments and ideas to consider for each of us. This may apply to our quartets as well as our choruses.


      Now... let's go back to that number you wrote down above. Do you feel like changing it now? Let's run this exercise. (Keep in mind, this is just ONE way to consider pricing.)

      Say your number was that you'd sing for $50 an hour. Now let's say you were offered to be on someone's show. You're to sing 2 numbers. They want you to be at the dress rehearsal which would take up 2.5 hours of your time. You have to travel an hour to get there. You're going to sing on 2 shows that last 2 hours each and they want you to be there the whole time.

      There are four of you traveling and hour each way. That's 8 hours.
      2 hours, 2 shows and 2.5 hours for a dress rehearsal x 4 people = 26 hours
      That's a total of 34 hours of your quartet's time....  times $50 each per hour = $1700

      Is that unfair? If so, why? That's an important question. What's wrong with that number? Is your time not really that valuable? Are you really not worth that? If you're embarrassed to ask that much, are you that embarrassed by your performance? What makes that number wrong? If you think hey, we do a good job, then why shouldn't your fee say that as well?

      I look forward to the discussion. I'd like to see if we can come up with a consensus scheduling table that people can work from on this list.

      Batter up!!

      John Rentz




    • Lee Tayon
      This has been a topic that I have struggled with over my 10 years in quartets. I believe that the confidence of the quartet (or the person promoting the
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 26, 2010
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        This has been a topic that I have struggled with over my 10 years in quartets. I believe that the confidence of the quartet (or the person promoting the quartet) is a big part of settling on price. I have heard quartets that "think" they are good ask for fees I felt were far too lofty for they abilities. On the flip side I have heard groups that are outstanding really undersell themselves. Women in particular tend to do this more than men (in my humble opinion).

        Well, this year I really decided to put the "what is your budget" line to the test. We are routinely paid between $150 - $300 for a 20-30 minute program. Since I try never to quote less than $300 I feel this is pretty good! A couple of times when things were slow I offered a "Special" rate of $150 billing it as 50% off. Everyone likes a sale! Most recently we did a church Christmas party. Since one of us was a member of the church, we refused to quote a price and simply said, "pay us what you feel right about". They sent us a check for $400 for a 20 min. performance AND we got to eat good food!

        I think it's all about marketing, knowing your abilities as a group, and trusting that people really do have money planned for entertainment. All you have to do is ask. The worst thing that can happen is that you accept less than your regular fee, which is still more than you would have received anyway. Afterall, most of us will sing for free to anyone who will listen.

        In Harmony
        Lee Tayon, Tenor
        Joyful Sound Quartet
        SAI Region 10
        www.makeajoyfulsound.com




        >>> On 1/26/10 at 3:02 PM, in message <75AB808E2C8324468B453E35D90126EA22C716553F@...>, "Stancil, Chris" <chris_stancil@...> wrote:


        I believe you have to be very honest with your and your quartets ability. Starting out with a new quartet you don't want to charge much as you need to build repetoire and confidence. I had a quartet that spent an entire night singing Irish songs on St Patricks day for the experience (and a free round of beer). We sang at many places and each one was as different as you can imagine. The biggest audience was on Greenville in Dallas and it showed a need to be able to adjust to the environment to keep your sound.

        For local gigs other than non-profit/charity events the minumum was $35.00. We soon upped to $50.00. This was over 10 years ago.

        We were never going to be in the hunt for District contest but we could be entertaining.

        Know your abilities.

        Chris Stancil
        Lead
        Harmonically Challenged




        From: barbershopquartet@yahoogroups.com [mailto:barbershopquartet@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Edward Headley
        Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 2:43 PM
        To: barbershopquartet@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [barbershopquartet] It's softball time



        John,

        What a great topic ! I have often asked myself these very same questions.......only I don't have any rationale 'thought out' as of yet, so I am going to have to 'sit on the bench' and try to learn from the other Batters I see who 'step-up' to the plate !

        On a personal note: I have yet to be able to form a COMPETITIVE QUARTET in my area, so this topic is 'down the line' BUT I WANT TO KNOW THE ANSWERS , TOO !

        GREAT QUESTIONS and good rationale behind them, John ! What a great email !
        Thanks for 'putting down on paper' what I am certain a lot of quartetters are asking !

        Best Regards,

        Ed Headley
        Bass
        Portland Downeasters Barbershop Chorus


        Edward W. Headley
        P.O. Box 10631
        Portland, Maine 04104-6031
        (207) 773-9766 (phone)
        (207) 773-4981 (fax)

        --- On Tue, 1/26/10, John <jg62bbshop@...> wrote:


        From: John <jg62bbshop@...>
        Subject: [barbershopquartet] It's softball time
        To: barbershopquartet@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Tuesday, January 26, 2010, 2:21 PM



        All right, I'll pitch. Each of you grab a bat and get in line and take a few swings.


        Pricing/Charging for gigs

        I don't want to hear about why you *don't* charge for gigs. I want to know how much you charge and how you decided on what that charge should be.

        Before you read any further, please do this one little thing. Think, for a few minutes, on what your time is worth. How much would you charge someone for JUST YOU (not a quartet) to go sing for an hour? $10? $20? $30? Think about it like this... it's 3:00 in the afternoon and someone wants you to come and sing tonight for an hour at 7:00. Just you. Forget about all the "what-ifs" and "buts". Just go with it. What would make it worth your while to drop whatever your doing, whatever you had planned and travel, say, 20 minutes somewhere and sing for an hour? Write that number down.


        I have a friend who said that a 1/2 hour quartet should always start at $400 minimum. I know there are a lot of people out there that think that is really high. Especially for *their* area. "People just won't pay that". You're wrong. I believe it would surprise you just how much people WOULD pay.

        Have you ever ASKED what their budget is first? You may be thinking of bidding $400 and come to find out their budget is $1500 for entertainment! Don't think that highly of yourselves? (That begins a whole other conversation. ) Then give them a $1000 package.

        What would you charge for a regular 1/2 hour gig?
        What would you charge for a 2 hour "stroller" gig? (This is one where you would 'stroll' around singing, say at a convention center or fair.)
        What would you charge for a "reverse stroller"? (One where you stand in one place as people walk by, say at the entrance of a convention center.)
        What would you charge for a chapter show where you sing just TWO songs?
        What would you charge for a chapter show where you are the featured quartet doing a fully 1/2 hour set?
        What would you charge for 2 songs at a wedding? (I have experience on this one. I'm anxious to see your responses.)
        What would you charge for a 1/2 hour set at a convention attended by 10,000 people?

        Do you just try to come up with something that "feels" right?
        Do you keep everything below the tax reporting limit of $600?
        Do you charge by the hour? Per person?
        Do you charge per song?
        Do you charge according to the venue/seating capacity? (Do you charge differently for a 200-seat venue versus a 1500-seat venue?)
        Do you consider what it took to get you to the point to be able to do that gig? (Time in finding a quartet, administration, rehearsing, cost of outfits, travel, coaching, etc.? This isn't the same as hey, can you come over and help me move a couch.)
        Do you consider that the revenue that is being pulled in on that show is in part because you are on that show?

        I hope you all weigh in on this so we can have comments and ideas to consider for each of us. This may apply to our quartets as well as our choruses.


        Now... let's go back to that number you wrote down above. Do you feel like changing it now? Let's run this exercise. (Keep in mind, this is just ONE way to consider pricing.)

        Say your number was that you'd sing for $50 an hour. Now let's say you were offered to be on someone's show. You're to sing 2 numbers. They want you to be at the dress rehearsal which would take up 2.5 hours of your time. You have to travel an hour to get there. You're going to sing on 2 shows that last 2 hours each and they want you to be there the whole time.

        There are four of you traveling and hour each way. That's 8 hours.
        2 hours, 2 shows and 2.5 hours for a dress rehearsal x 4 people = 26 hours
        That's a total of 34 hours of your quartet's time.... times $50 each per hour = $1700

        Is that unfair? If so, why? That's an important question. What's wrong with that number? Is your time not really that valuable? Are you really not worth that? If you're embarrassed to ask that much, are you that embarrassed by your performance? What makes that number wrong? If you think hey, we do a good job, then why shouldn't your fee say that as well?

        I look forward to the discussion. I'd like to see if we can come up with a consensus scheduling table that people can work from on this list.

        Batter up!!

        John Rentz
      • Bob Caldwell
        Yes, John.  VERY good questions and good rationale behind your theory.  What your time is worth though and what you can get for it can be very different
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 26, 2010
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          Yes, John.  VERY good questions and good rationale behind your theory.  What your time is "worth" though and what you can "get for it" can be very different numbers.
           
          I have been quartetting, almost constantly, for 34 years.  My very first quartet lasted 14 years during which there were 5 changes of personnel.  The tenor and I made it all the way.  We were an entertaining comedic quartet that sang well.  In competition we scored low to mid-70s, never made it to INT and placed as high as 4th in M-AD.  We did perform a LOT though.  During the barbershop show season we could have done a show twice a month if we'd had the time and inclination.  To my recollection our fee was never more than $600-800 plus expenses (mileage, meals, lodging) even for a two night barbershop show and glow.  Most local gigs we earned $200-400 per performance.  The fees were always negotiated by the contact man and based on budget and attendance.
           
          The second and most primary of my quartets was together 16 years with the original 4 players.  We never got to the regular INT though we did come very close once when we ended in a 3 way tie for 5th place at M-AD Prelims scoring 74.9.  We did earn three trips to mid-winter to the Senior Int once I turned 55 and earned a 4th place medal in 2003.  This quartet performed WAY less often than the above quartet because though we sang some better we were not as "entertaining".   We appeared on only a few out of town barbershop shows over the years but did perform regularly locally at fees similar to above.
           
          After that there were a couple other quartets with mixed numbers.  The penultimate quartet rehearsed and competed for 3 1/2 years, scored some pretty good numbers, low 70s, and actually peformed for pay ONCE in all that time.
           
          My current and latest quartet has been together now for two years, with two different tenors, has learned about a dozen songs to performance level and has just begun to sing for pay.  We have already sung on a small chapter show, a private birthday party and a banquet.  I think we got $400 for the chapter show/glow, $200 for the private party and $150 for the banquet (all they had in the budget).  Our baritone and tenor live nearly two hours apart at opposite ends of MD and the other two of us are midway between so we are selective of the performances we accept because the travel time required makes most fees offered less than we are "worth".  LOL
           
          This is the first quartet that I have been the contact man but coming up with a fee that is acceptable to both the quartet and the person hiring can require some creative bidding.
           
          I have to admit that I was spoiled by my first quartet experience with lots of performing for moderate fees.  I would like to perform twice a week and would do so for little or no pay other than the applause. 
           
          Harmony-us-ly, BobCaldwell@...
          571.766.2976  or  804.241.6957 cell
          FRiDAYS!             O{/////
          Steve, Bob, Steve & Ken    [|;^}0x
          Thank goodness it's barbershop!      
          Alexandria Harmonizers Chorus

           
        • Grant Carson
          In my opinion, a quartet should never sing for free because that cheapens your price. However, there are times when you might not want to charge a charitable
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 26, 2010
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            In my opinion, a quartet should never sing for free because that cheapens your price. However, there are times when you might not want to charge a charitable cause. In that case you can charge your normal fee with the understanding that you will make a charitable contribution in an equal amount. That has the potential for good publicity.

            Grant Carson, now Frank Thorne
            Close Enough for Government Work
            Old Spice

            --- On Tue, 1/26/10, Lee Tayon <ltayon@...> wrote:

            > From: Lee Tayon <ltayon@...>
            > Subject: RE: [barbershopquartet] It's softball time
            > To: "barbershopquartet@yahoogroups.com" <barbershopquartet@yahoogroups.com>
            > Date: Tuesday, January 26, 2010, 4:04 PM
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > This has been a topic that I have struggled with over
            > my 10 years in quartets.  I believe that the confidence
            > of the quartet (or the person promoting the quartet) is a
            > big part of settling on price.  I have heard
            > quartets that "think" they are good ask for fees I
            > felt were far too lofty for they abilities.  On the
            > flip side I have heard groups that are outstanding really
            > undersell themselves.  Women in particular tend to do
            > this more than men (in my humble opinion). 
            >  
            > Well, this year I really decided to put the "what
            > is your budget" line to the test. We are
            > routinely paid between $150 - $300 for a 20-30 minute
            > program.  Since I try never to quote less than $300 I
            > feel this is pretty good!  A couple of times when
            > things were slow I offered a "Special" rate of
            > $150 billing it as 50% off.  Everyone likes a
            > sale!  Most recently we did a church Christmas
            > party.  Since one of us was a member of the church, we
            > refused to quote a price and simply said, "pay us what
            > you feel right about".  They sent us a check for
            > $400 for a 20 min. performance AND we got to eat good
            > food!
            >  
            > I think it's all about marketing, knowing your
            > abilities as a group, and trusting that people really
            > do have money planned for entertainment. All you have
            > to do is ask.  The worst thing that can happen is that
            > you accept less than your regular fee, which is still more
            > than you would have received anyway.  Afterall, most of
            > us will sing for free to anyone who will listen.
            >  
            > In Harmony
            > Lee Tayon, Tenor
            > Joyful Sound Quartet
            > SAI Region 10
            > www.makeajoyfulsound.com
          • Lee Tayon
            Please understand that I am not advocating that we sing for free, merely stating that most of us do this for the love of the music and not merely the money.
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 26, 2010
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              Please understand that I am not advocating that we sing for free, merely stating that most of us do this for the love of the music and not merely the money. Just as an aside, my quartet has chosen to pay a tithe from all fees paid to a mutually agreed upon ministry. This is a way that we have chosen to give back from all that we are blessed with (musically and financially).

              Lee
              >>> On 1/26/10 at 4:13 PM, in message <738326.21606.qm@...>, Grant Carson <wmgcarson@...> wrote:


              In my opinion, a quartet should never sing for free because that cheapens your price. However, there are times when you might not want to charge a charitable cause. In that case you can charge your normal fee with the understanding that you will make a charitable contribution in an equal amount. That has the potential for good publicity.

              Grant Carson, now Frank Thorne
              Close Enough for Government Work
              Old Spice

              --- On Tue, 1/26/10, Lee Tayon <ltayon@...> wrote:

              > From: Lee Tayon <ltayon@...>
              > Subject: RE: [barbershopquartet] It's softball time
              > To: "barbershopquartet@yahoogroups.com" <barbershopquartet@yahoogroups.com>
              > Date: Tuesday, January 26, 2010, 4:04 PM
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > This has been a topic that I have struggled with over
              > my 10 years in quartets. I believe that the confidence
              > of the quartet (or the person promoting the quartet) is a
              > big part of settling on price. I have heard
              > quartets that "think" they are good ask for fees I
              > felt were far too lofty for they abilities. On the
              > flip side I have heard groups that are outstanding really
              > undersell themselves. Women in particular tend to do
              > this more than men (in my humble opinion).
              >
              > Well, this year I really decided to put the "what
              > is your budget" line to the test. We are
              > routinely paid between $150 - $300 for a 20-30 minute
              > program. Since I try never to quote less than $300 I
              > feel this is pretty good! A couple of times when
              > things were slow I offered a "Special" rate of
              > $150 billing it as 50% off. Everyone likes a
              > sale! Most recently we did a church Christmas
              > party. Since one of us was a member of the church, we
              > refused to quote a price and simply said, "pay us what
              > you feel right about". They sent us a check for
              > $400 for a 20 min. performance AND we got to eat good
              > food!
              >
              > I think it's all about marketing, knowing your
              > abilities as a group, and trusting that people really
              > do have money planned for entertainment. All you have
              > to do is ask. The worst thing that can happen is that
              > you accept less than your regular fee, which is still more
              > than you would have received anyway. Afterall, most of
              > us will sing for free to anyone who will listen.
              >
              > In Harmony
              > Lee Tayon, Tenor
              > Joyful Sound Quartet
              > SAI Region 10
              > www.makeajoyfulsound.com
            • joe08867
              I will echo Bob on this. I am currently in two quartets. One that has competed on the District Stage and one that is looking forward to competing on the
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 27, 2010
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                I will echo Bob on this. I am currently in two quartets. One that has competed on the District Stage and one that is looking forward to competing on the Novice stage. As such I would never expect my Novice group to charge any kind of fee until it is up to a healthy performance level.

                On the other side of the coin my District Level quartet has the ability to charge quite a good fee for services rendered. Of course this also depends on the location, time, type, etc.. We charge more for another chapters show than we would for say a private party. but with that said the level of performance should always be as high as possible. As far as freebies go, we have done several freebies but for the right reasons and causes. Usually to support a quartet members charity or personal requests. These are also easier times to try something new in front of an audience. Something you may not want to try in front of a paying audience.

                I say a good number to work around is $200 to start for a private party and 600-800 for a chapter show. Of course as your level of ability rises so too should the price.

                Joseph DiPaola,
                Asst. Section Leader, VP of Marketing and PR for
                The Hunterdon Harmonizers
                Lead for Chordhouse Steps
                Tenor for Plead the 5th

                --- In barbershopquartet@yahoogroups.com, Bob Caldwell <BobCaldwell@...> wrote:
                >
                > Yes, John.  VERY good questions and good rationale behind your theory.  What your time is "worth" though and what you can "get for it" can be very different numbers.
                >  
                > I have been quartetting, almost constantly, for 34 years.  My very first quartet lasted 14 years during which there were 5 changes of personnel.  The tenor and I made it all the way.  We were an entertaining comedic quartet that sang well.  In competition we scored low to mid-70s, never made it to INT and placed as high as 4th in M-AD.  We did perform a LOT though.  During the barbershop show season we could have done a show twice a month if we'd had the time and inclination.  To my recollection our fee was never more than $600-800 plus expenses (mileage, meals, lodging) even for a two night barbershop show and glow.  Most local gigs we earned $200-400 per performance.  The fees were always negotiated by the contact man and based on budget and attendance.
                >  
                > The second and most primary of my quartets was together 16 years with the original 4 players.  We never got to the regular INT though we did come very close once when we ended in a 3 way tie for 5th place at M-AD Prelims scoring 74.9.  We did earn three trips to mid-winter to the Senior Int once I turned 55 and earned a 4th place medal in 2003.  This quartet performed WAY less often than the above quartet because though we sang some better we were not as "entertaining".   We appeared on only a few out of town barbershop shows over the years but did perform regularly locally at fees similar to above.
                >  
                > After that there were a couple other quartets with mixed numbers.  The penultimate quartet rehearsed and competed for 3 1/2 years, scored some pretty good numbers, low 70s, and actually peformed for pay ONCE in all that time.
                >  
                > My current and latest quartet has been together now for two years, with two different tenors, has learned about a dozen songs to performance level and has just begun to sing for pay.  We have already sung on a small chapter show, a private birthday party and a banquet.  I think we got $400 for the chapter show/glow, $200 for the private party and $150 for the banquet (all they had in the budget).  Our baritone and tenor live nearly two hours apart at opposite ends of MD and the other two of us are midway between so we are selective of the performances we accept because the travel time required makes most fees offered less than we are "worth".  LOL
                >  
                > This is the first quartet that I have been the contact man but coming up with a fee that is acceptable to both the quartet and the person hiring can require some creative bidding.
                >  
                > I have to admit that I was spoiled by my first quartet experience with lots of performing for moderate fees.  I would like to perform twice a week and would do so for little or no pay other than the applause. 
                >  
                > Harmony-us-ly, BobCaldwell@...
                > 571.766.2976  or  804.241.6957cell
                > FRiDAYS!             O{/////] 
                > Steve, Bob, Steve & Ken    [|;^}0x
                > Thank goodness it's barbershop!      
                > Alexandria Harmonizers Chorus
                >
              • Leaderman
                As far as not charging for your novice quartet even though you may not think it is up to a perceived level, you need to take into consideration the costs
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 27, 2010
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                  As far as not charging for your novice quartet even though you may not
                  think it is up to a perceived level, you need to take into consideration
                  the costs involved with even being in that novice quartet. There is the
                  registration fee (hopefully you register with the Society), matching
                  socks, purchase of music, travel expenses to get to and from rehearsals
                  and the performance area, time spent rehearsing as a quartet (another
                  night away from home), and the list can go on.

                  It's not realistic for us to think that our quartetting is free. Unless
                  you are independently wealthy, it can amount to a great deal of expense
                  for all involved. Somehow you need to figure in a way to pay for all of
                  that.

                  Just some thoughts.

                  --
                  Sing-cerely & Humm-bly,

                  John Elving
                  VP Mus. & Perf.
                  Editor-in-Cheap
                  Shrine of Democracy Chorus
                  Bass - CONVERGENCE Quartet
                  RMD CDD VP
                  PROBE VP- Bulletin Editors
                  Rapid City, SD
                  Email: leaderman@...

                  joe08867 wrote:
                  > I will echo Bob on this. I am currently in two quartets. One that has competed on the District Stage and one that is looking forward to competing on the Novice stage. As such I would never expect my Novice group to charge any kind of fee until it is up to a healthy performance level.
                  >
                • Derek Hatley
                  Good topic, John. There is something neither you nor any responders have raised: for almost all of us quarteting is a hobby not a profession. We don t depend
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 27, 2010
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                    Good topic, John.

                    There is something neither you nor any responders have raised: for
                    almost all of us quarteting is a hobby not a profession. We don't
                    depend on it for a living. I think this makes a huge difference that
                    affects your numbers: how much value do we give to the enjoyment WE
                    get out of performing. Whatever that number is should, I think, be
                    deducted from whatever a professional performing group would charge.
                    So, a relevant question is: What would those professionals charge?
                    Answer that and deduct the personal enjoyment value, and you have a
                    credible number.

                    Derek

                    Derek Hatley—Songwriter & Arranger

                    Hatley Music
                    112 Mill Pond Drive
                    Middleville, Michigan 49333-8010

                    (269) 795-3127
                    Derek@...
                    www.HatleyMusic.com

                    PS Notice I have not included all the preceding messages--I wish
                    everyone would do that.
                  • Bob Caldwell
                    In the early years of my quartetting I used to say to friends about it, It s the only hobby I have found that can pay for itself.   That was true in my first
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jan 27, 2010
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                      In the early years of my quartetting I used to say to friends about it, "It's the only hobby I have found that can pay for itself."  That was true in my first quartet where we performed often and for substancial pay.  Factoring in the time for rehearsals and travel expenses to get to and from those, the registrations and music purchases and the limited number of paid performances in recent years it has become not so much the case.
                       
                      Harmony-us-ly, BobCaldwell@...
                      571.766.2976  or  804.241.6957 cell
                      FRiDAYS!             O{/////
                      Steve, Bob, Steve & Ken    [|;^}0x
                      Thank goodness it's barbershop!      
                      Alexandria Harmonizers Chorus
                    • John Rentz
                      I just don t think you have to discount something just because YOU enjoy what you re doing. You enjoying what you re doing is what makes it a better
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jan 27, 2010
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                        I just don't think you have to discount something just because YOU enjoy what you're doing. You enjoying what you're doing is what makes it a better performance and therefore a more valuable experience to the customer/audience.

                        I understand the millions of reasons why we could do it for free or do it for very little money. Anyone can do that. My topic is to help those who would like to try to figure out how to charge an appropriate amount for those who *do* want to charge.

                        And if  you're against *making* money because of your hobby, that's ok. But you do have costs... purchasing music, travel, costumes, food, lodging, registrations, etc. You know, it's pretty cool when the hobby supports itself. I hardly think even 1% of barbershoppers are making a living singing barbershop.

                        And, wouldn't you get more personal enjoyment if you sang a gig an got $10,000 for it?

                        I assume you love writing and arranging. Do you discount all your music? The bank loves lending you money, do they discount your mortgage payment? Doctors love making people better, do they discount their services?

                        (I *am* trying to be argumentative. But I'm not trying to be mean about anything, so don't take it that way. I'm playing the devil's advocate to stir discussion.)

                        John


                        From: Derek Hatley <Derek@...>
                        To: barbershopquartet@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wed, January 27, 2010 9:13:59 AM
                        Subject: [barbershopquartet] Re:It's softball time

                        Good topic, John.

                        There is something neither you nor any responders have raised: for 
                        almost all of us quarteting is a hobby not a profession.  We don't 
                        depend on it for a living.  I think this makes a huge difference that 
                        affects your numbers: how much value do we give to the enjoyment WE 
                        get out of performing.  Whatever that number is should, I think, be 
                        deducted from whatever a professional performing group would charge. 
                        So, a relevant question is: What would those professionals charge? 
                        Answer that and deduct the personal enjoyment value, and you have a 
                        credible number.

                        Derek

                        Derek Hatley—Songwriter & Arranger

                        Hatley Music
                        112 Mill Pond Drive
                        Middleville, Michigan 49333-8010

                        (269) 795-3127
                        Derek@...
                        www.HatleyMusic.com

                        PS Notice I have not included all the preceding messages--I wish 
                        everyone would do that.



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                      • joe08867
                        I agree that it takes time and money to be in this Hobby. Why are hobbies so expensive by the way? I don t pay the bills with my quartet gigs but they do
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jan 27, 2010
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                          I agree that it takes time and money to be in this Hobby. Why are hobbies so expensive by the way?

                          I don't pay the bills with my quartet gigs but they do support the hobby. It has paid for Clothes and expenses as well as covering contest costs. Which can get expensive.

                          I also come to this hobby after having been in a rock band for many years. I will say we charge far less than I ever had with the band.

                          Joseph DiPaola


                          Derek said:
                          > PS Notice I have not included all the preceding messages--I wish
                          > everyone would do that.


                          > Derek I will follow your lead.
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