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Re: [bafuture] Re: [LA Futurists] Re: [la-grg] Physical Immortality, DNA, and Computers

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  • Troy Gardner
    I think we ve already established a perfectly identicle clone(s) is impossibly unless they are intricately synchronized like permanently entangled particles,
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 8, 2003
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      I think we've already established a perfectly identicle clone(s) is impossibly
      unless they are intricately synchronized like permanently entangled particles,
      so while one is on the dark side of the moon the other feels cold, and the
      converse. Which seems to be outside even the forseeable nanoscale manipulation
      of the physical world.

      On the other hand things are good enough for the task at hand. If you (for fun
      I'll say your name is Tim Buck) and go to sleep on Approximate Clone Airways on
      a trip for TimBuckTimesTwo (half price special), wake up on the plane on the
      overnight (maybe the clone maybe the original) and while it's a budget airlines
      instead of quantumly identical food, they feed you nowhere near identical
      cheerios with nowhere near identical (on a quantum scale) milk, they will fill
      you up just the same because on a molecular or higher macro level it's 'good
      enough'. Hell even feeding one Wheaties and the others Fruit Loop might not
      cause enough of a divergence to matter. Not even die hard chemists bake
      cookies (at home at least) measuring moles of flour, chocolate, butter, etc
      according the Better Homes & Products Stoichiometric Cookbook. Since the
      physical world is roughly homogenous. Within some unknown timeframe your clone
      will be likely to like the same music as you do, have the same tastes in food
      as you do, suck (or rock maybe?) at dancing as you do, so that swapping or
      synching wouldn't be that difficult. At least to the point that if you had the
      choice of death, or picking up like you were just dropped off at the airport
      from ACA airlines stop with no real memory of the last few months, feeling a
      little different from the clone/upload process...er jet (future?) lag, it still
      be good enough for most people, it'd certainly be no worse than those comatosed
      patients that come back after a decade or so.

      Troy





      =====
      Troy Gardner -"How you live your seconds, is how you live your days, is how you live your life..."

      http://www.troygardner.com -my world, philosophy, music, writings.
      http://www.troyworks.com -consulting & training in Flash, Java, and C#
      http://www.intrio.com -helping bridge the gap between the humans and machines. Home of the Flickey´┐Ż
    • Michael Korns
      On Sunday, June 08, 2003 1:21 PM, Chris Phoenix wrote, Re: [bafuture] Re: [LA Futurists] Re: [la-grg] Physical Immortality, DNA, and Computers ... Chris, CA s
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 8, 2003
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        On Sunday, June 08, 2003 1:21 PM, Chris Phoenix wrote,
        Re: [bafuture] Re: [LA Futurists] Re: [la-grg] Physical Immortality, DNA, and Computers

        >I haven't had time to even look at Wolfram's book. Can someone tell me
        >briefly whether he encompasses the random events of quantum mechanics
        >with deterministic CAs?

        Chris, CA's are not restricted to deterministic local transition functions. Probabilistic transition functions are completely acceptable. Basically any Hausdorf endomorphism can be constructed as a CA.


        *******************************
        Michael F. Korns
        1 Plum Hollow Drive
        Henderson, Nevada 89052
        (702) 837-3498
        mkorns@...
        www.korns.com
        www.InvestByAgent.com
        *******************************


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • wayne radinsky
        ... Mila and I went to Wolfram s talk months and months ago, and I meant to write up a summary of the talk, but I never did so. So, for the benefit of everyone
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 9, 2003
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          > I haven't had time to even look at Wolfram's book. Can
          > someone tell me briefly whether he encompasses the
          > random events of quantum mechanics with deterministic
          > CAs?

          Mila and I went to Wolfram's talk months and months ago,
          and I meant to write up a summary of the talk, but I never
          did so. So, for the benefit of everyone wondering what
          Chris is asking about, I'll give a quick summary.

          Stephen Wolfram has done extensive experiments with
          one-dimensional "cellular automata". He was doing research
          in mathematics, and discovering how complex patterns could
          arise from what seemed like simple rules. So he decided to
          try to find the absolute simplest case possible and study it.

          In these one dimensional cellular automata, you start with
          a row of cells. Each cell is either "on" or "off", or black
          or white. The very first row starts off with every cell
          off, except one.

          To form the next row of the cellular automata, you use the
          cell directly above it, and one cell to each side. So each
          cell in the next row depends on 3 cells from the row above.
          The new color is determined by the rule you are using for
          mapping the old cells to the new.

          But what is the rule? It turns out there are only 256
          possible rules. The reason for this is that there are each
          cell depends on 3 cells above it. Those 3 cells can each be
          on or off -- 8 possibilities. And for each of those 8
          possibilities, the new cell can be either on or off -- 256
          possibilities.

          Here, Wolfram discovered something remarkable. With certain
          rules, starting with a single "on" cell, he could produce
          non-repetitive patterns of ever-increasing complexity. He
          discovered all sorts of mathematical patters, such as a
          cellular automata that calculated the prime numbers. He
          discovered that one rule -- called Rule 110 -- is
          computationally complete. That is, with Rule 110, you can
          make any arithmetic calculation. At least in theory -- in
          practice, knowing how to convert your calculation to
          binary, and reduce all the arithmetic operations to
          combinations of arithmetic primitives, and knowing where to
          start and stop running the cellular automata can be quite
          daunting! However, if you think about it, performing
          boolean logic operations is what every digital computer
          does, and yet they are able to calculate square roots and
          logarithms and just about everything else. Wolfram goes on
          to demonstrate how he ran represent the Turing Machine
          using cellular automata. The Turing Machine is the
          theoretical mathematical foundation for all modern
          computers, created by Alan Turing in the 1950's.

          In the rest of his "big book" Stephen Wolfram describes the
          posibility that the laws of physics themselves might
          operate by "simple rules" and thus the universe itself
          might be a sort of cellular automata running simple rules.
          He discribes network node substitution rules which can, for
          example, explain why the universe has 3-dimensional space,
          instead of some other number. It can be created as a side
          effect of the number of other nodes each node in the
          network connects to. Then, with "simple rules" (analogous
          to Rule 110), you get a universe from which infinite
          complexity arises from a single point. He is able to
          demonstrate how particular cellular automata rules
          demonstrate conservation of particular quantities -- which
          can be analogous to conservation of energy, or conservation
          of mass -- which is important for physics. In addition, the
          effects of Einstein's Relativity can be achieved by making
          the universe update in a sequential, rather than parallel,
          way. It just seems parallel to us because, for example, I
          can't tell that you've been updated until *I've* been
          updated.

          Of course, while he is doing all this, Wolfram shows how
          cellular automata patterns are similar to many forms in
          biology and even in human art. He is not the first person
          to observe the similarity between mathematical images
          (typically called fractal art) and biological systems and
          human art.

          Nor does Wolfram tell us what the rules that govern the
          universe are. However, he has demonstrated that it's
          possible, and given scientists some idea what to look for.

          Wolfram Science website
          http://www.wolframscience.com/

          Now, to answer Chris's specific question about whether
          Wolflam encompasses the random events of quantum mechanics
          with deterministic CAs?

          In quantum physics, physics has given up trying to predict
          things exactly and only predicts the probabilities of
          events. For example, an equation will tell you the
          probability of seeing an electron with spin up. But it
          won't tell you whether any particular electron is spin up.

          Wolfram does not see the randomness of quantum mechanics to
          be much of a problem. CA's easily exhibit enormous apparent
          randomness. Wolfram shows how it's possible to create CA's
          that exhibit enormous apparent randomness and also be
          reversible, obey the laws of thermodynamics, and
          relativity. A CA on the planck scale would easily have
          tremendous apparent randomness.

          What is more of a problem for Wolfram is Bell's inequality,
          which is the basis for the quantum effect of "non-locality"
          or "entanglement". This happens, when, for example, you
          have two photons emitted from the same source, and
          measuring the polarization of one constrains the result of
          measurement of the other, and not by hidden properties
          inside the photons, but by some sort of "instantaneous
          communication". This "instantaneous communication" doesn't
          violate Einstein's relativity, which dictates that
          information can't be transmitted faster than the speed of
          light, because it can't be used to transmit information.

          Wolfram says there could be a causal relationship between
          the observers, rather than the photons. For example the
          universe could be set up in such a way that there is a
          cause and effect relationship between the people who set up
          the angle of the polarization filters used to measure the
          polarity of the entangled photons so that the result of the
          experiment is just right for the experimental result to fit
          Bell's inequality. Wolfram considers this possibility
          rather contrived. He hypthesizes that the network may have
          other topological possibilities. In other words, the way we
          measure distance is by traversing the network (using a
          photon or electron) from one point to another, but perhaps
          this is not the only way of traversing the network and the
          entanglement traverses a different path.


          --- Chris Phoenix <cphoenix@...> wrote:
          > If identity means never differing at any time in the future,
          > then this
          > is unknowable for any two objects, except in theoretical
          > exercises that
          > allow an omniscient observer. The trouble is the speed of
          > light.
          > However much information you have, you will not know what
          > photons are
          > outside your observation volume, ready to come in and disturb
          > your
          > variables.
          >
          > In computer science, we can imagine ...11011011011011... but
          > even there
          > we can't build it. (Turing machines have infinite memory; no
          > computer
          > does.)
          >
          > Also, as long as quantum events are truly random, you never
          > know when
          > e.g. a nucleus will decay in one object and not in another.
          > (Has anyone
          > ever entangled radioactive atoms and seen whether their decay
          > becomes
          > correlated?)
          >
          > I question the utility of a criterion with such a stringent
          > definition
          > that it can never be applied with certainy in the real world.
          > It
          > depends on what you're using it for, of course, but if you
          > want to make
          > statements about the real world, you're likely to be dividing
          > by zero or
          > assuming spherical cows.
          >
          > I haven't had time to even look at Wolfram's book. Can
          > someone tell me
          > briefly whether he encompasses the random events of quantum
          > mechanics
          > with deterministic CAs?
          >
          > Chris
          >
          > Michael Korns wrote:
          > >
          > > On Saturday, June 07, 2003 11:29 PM, Troy Gardner wrote:
          > > Subject Re: [bafuture] Re: [LA Futurists] Re: [la-grg]
          > Physical Immortality, DNA, and Computers
          > >
          > > >Even without parrallel universes assuming the laws of
          > physics and thus the
          > > >possible operations/movements of matter/energy from one
          > state/moment to the
          > > >next are relatively uniform, a) within short windows of
          > time/change for more
          > > >flexibile entities or b) much longer for sufficently
          > developed or at least
          > > >stable entity/identity (meaning that which makes
          > them..them, the thoughts,
          > > >feelings, approaches to problems, temperment), there will
          > be enough momentum to
          > > >not change that much from a clone of it in any other part
          > of space. i.e. From
          > > >my psycology books nature versus nurture chapture example
          > where identical twins
          > > >which have been raised separately end up choosing very
          > similar occupations,
          > > >spouses, hobbies and the like despite having different
          > parents raise them,
          > > >different schools, to the point that it it probably would
          > not be that hard if
          > > >'swapping places' to feel happy. Or alternately put they
          > have similar vectors
          > > >(similar goals?) but dissimilar paths they follow that
          > correspond to the
          > > >dissimilar environments.
          > >
          > > Troy, it sure looks to me like you have a good point.
          > Furthermore; since Jessica is asking for mathematical proofs,
          > perhaps we might use Wolfram's New Kind Of Science concept of
          > the Universe as a giant cellular automata.
          > >
          > > In a simplified combination of the classic book, Flatland,
          > and Wolfram's book, A New Kind of Science, suppose we have a 1
          > dimensional binary cellular automata universe, called
          > Binaryland. Suppose Binaryland is configured as follows:
          > >
          > > a.. ...110110110110110110110110...
          > > As we can see every third point in Binaryland has equivalent
          > environmental variables.
          > >
          > > Michael
          > >
          > > *******************************
          > > Michael F. Korns
          > > 1 Plum Hollow Drive
          > > Henderson, Nevada 89052
          > > (702) 837-3498
          > > mkorns@...
          > > www.korns.com
          > > www.InvestByAgent.com
          > > *******************************
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > bafuture-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          > --
          > Chris Phoenix cphoenix@...
          > http://xenophilia.org
          > Center for Responsible Nanotechnology (co-founder)
          > http://CRNano.org
          >


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        • wayne radinsky
          ... As far as I know, Wolfram s work involves only CA s with deterministic transition functions. What s a Hausdorf endomorphism? ...
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 9, 2003
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            > Basically any Hausdorf endomorphism can be
            > constructed as a CA.

            As far as I know, Wolfram's work involves only
            CA's with deterministic transition functions.

            What's a Hausdorf endomorphism?

            --- Michael Korns <mkorns@...> wrote:
            > On Sunday, June 08, 2003 1:21 PM, Chris Phoenix wrote,
            > Re: [bafuture] Re: [LA Futurists] Re: [la-grg] Physical
            > Immortality, DNA, and Computers
            >
            > >I haven't had time to even look at Wolfram's book. Can
            > someone tell me
            > >briefly whether he encompasses the random events of quantum
            > mechanics
            > >with deterministic CAs?
            >
            > Chris, CA's are not restricted to deterministic local
            > transition functions. Probabilistic transition functions are
            > completely acceptable. Basically any Hausdorf endomorphism can
            > be constructed as a CA.
            >
            >
            > *******************************
            > Michael F. Korns
            > 1 Plum Hollow Drive
            > Henderson, Nevada 89052
            > (702) 837-3498
            > mkorns@...
            > www.korns.com
            > www.InvestByAgent.com
            > *******************************
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >


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          • Michael Korns
            On Monday, June 09, 2003 12:15 AM, wayne radinsky wrote, Subject: Wolfram s CA work ... Yes, this is true. Wolfram s work was very limited in scope compared
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 9, 2003
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              On Monday, June 09, 2003 12:15 AM, wayne radinsky wrote,
              Subject: Wolfram's CA work

              >> Basically any Hausdorff endomorphism can be constructed as a CA.
              >>
              >As far as I know, Wolfram's work involves only
              >CA's with deterministic transition functions.

              Yes, this is true. Wolfram's work was very limited in scope compared to Codd's and others work in the late sixties. However, there is no reason that CA's must be limited to deterministic transition functions. Many others have studied these kind of spaces. Finally, I liked your summary of Wolfram's work. I thought it summed things up nicely.

              >What's a Hausdorff endomorphism?

              Sorry, Jessica said she wanted a pure math proof. Perhaps I got carried away. Gee, that has never been known to happen before :-)

              Felix Hasudorff (1868-1942) did some interesting and seminal work in topology which abstracts mechanical systems like CA's. Basically Hausdroff studied functional spaces (spaces whose elements are functions) using open sets (abstract circles) to create a distance metric comparing one function to another. Such open set metrics are the initial beginnings of abstract topology.

              An endomorphism is a function mapping a space into itself. CA's are mechanical systems which map the configuration space for a set of cells back into other elements of the same configuration space. Hence all CA's are endomorphisms of some kind.

              Hausdorff's work can be abstractly related to CA's if one defines an open set (abstract circle) as the set of all cellular configurations which contain a definite local pattern for some set of local cells. So for every possible set of local cells and every possible definite pattern in those local cells we have just defined an open set.

              Deterministic CA's produce sequences of Hausdorff open sets. This is because any open set, by definition, contains a local collection of cells with a definite pattern. Regardless of the configuration of other cells, the CA's local transition function will map onto a new cellular configuration with a definite pattern in the specified local cells in some restricted neighborhood of the original set of cells. By definition, this set of points will also be a Hausdorff open set.

              Nodeterministic CA's are somply the union of multiple deterministic CA's based upon some probability distribution.

              I simply pointed out that any Hausdorff endomorphism can be constructed as a CA.

              You may want to Google any one of the following:

              1.. Hausdorff Metric function
              2.. Hausdorff Completeness Theorem
              3.. Hausdorff Convergence
              4.. Abstract Topology

              Here is a very good introductory link: http://www.cut-the-knot.com/do_you_know/Hausdorff.shtml

              Here is a general link: http://www.math.binghamton.edu/dept/topsem/00-01.htmll

              Michael


              *******************************
              Michael F. Korns
              1 Plum Hollow Drive
              Henderson, Nevada 89052
              (702) 837-3498
              mkorns@...
              www.korns.com
              www.InvestByAgent.com
              *******************************




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