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RE: [bafuture] Health care crisis

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  • Greg Trifiletti
    Could we please limit futurist posts to futurist topics. There are plenty of other forums to discuss public policy. I enjoy some of the futurist thread
    Message 1 of 13 , Oct 5, 2004
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      Could we please limit futurist posts to futurist
      topics. There are plenty of other forums to discuss
      public policy. I enjoy some of the futurist thread
      conversations and links generated by this group and
      would rather not be driven off by off-theme banter.

      And no, I don't think this thread is futuristic in any
      meaningful way. Talking about how the technology of
      health care will change over time and what those
      implications might have on public health is one thing.
      Simplistic policy discussion ("Single payer is a
      no-brainer") is political talk. If you want to preach
      that fixing the health care system is an easy
      proposition, there are plenty of forums in the Bay
      Area that will lend a sympatheic ear.

      Thanks,
      Greg


      --- "Song, Janice
      Y." <janice.y.song@...> wrote:

      > >Single payer is a no-brainer in health policy, but
      > then Americans don't
      > >have a social democratic party to speak sense in
      > policy debates, just
      > >the lame Democrats, so we debate medical savings
      > accounts instead.
      >
      > We might just change that on November 2. If the
      > Democrats win the White
      > House, we will get the ball rolling. I don't think
      > Kerry and Edwards are
      > paying lip service to the domestic issues. If they
      > win, they will clean
      > house. If the Bush administration is re-elected, at
      > least they are forced to
      > see (though they might not touch) the issue with
      > their solution, supposedly
      > medical savings accounts or personal investment
      > accounts.
      >
      > Coincidentally, the issue was right on the front
      > page of today's USA Today.
      > I believe we are rapidly painting ourselves into the
      > corner because other
      > problems are compounding. Namely funding the baby
      > boomers' retirement
      > benefits, Social Security and Medicare. Life is full
      > of ironies and one
      > irony is that while we spend billions a year on
      > chronic illnesses, we are
      > also expected to have a longer life expectancy. So
      > the math gets more
      > complicated and the numbers reach into the
      > stratosphere.
      >
      > USA Today printed a number of proposed solutions. I
      > like the "Enact Price
      > Control" idea. To quote the paper, a) "A national
      > health care system,
      > similar to those in other industrialized countries,
      > could cut costs by
      > setting prices, paying all bills and reducing
      > overhead. A proposal published
      > last year in the Journal of the American Medical
      > Assocation would end
      > private insurance and for-profit hospitals
      > altogether." b) "Government could
      > set best practice guidelines that doctors would have
      > to follow. For example,
      > the government might determine that standard
      > treatment for arthritis is
      > ibuprofen at 10 cents a day rather than Celebrex at
      > $2 a day, unless there
      > is a compelling reason to deviate from the best
      > practice." c) "Price
      > controls on prescription drugs, medical devices and
      > doctors' services could
      > be enacted. For example, drug prices could be
      > reduced by allowing lower-cost
      > imports or changing patent laws to shorten a
      > company's monopoly on a
      > medicine." The conservatives want to push tax-free
      > personal investment
      > accounts by diverting some of Social Security taxes
      > into personal retirement
      > accounts, at reduced benefits. Other ideas are
      > making the affluent pay more,
      > raise the retirement age, and cut Medicare and
      > Social Security costs.
      >
      > Some other facts from the "Money" section: Total
      > U.S. health care costs are
      > 14.6% of the GDP, compared to 5% in 1960. The cost
      > of Social Security and
      > medical care in the USA for the next 70 years are
      > expected to hit $43
      > trillion. In Sweden, the cost of a day's stay in the
      > hosptial is $11 and
      > there is a cap of $122 on medical fees per year.
      > Sweden's national and local
      > tax base is 53% while USA's tax base is 43%. Norway
      > enjoys a budget surplus
      > of 12% of its GDP.
      >
      > Janice
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Troy Gardner
      ... Fiar enough, anybody care to venture an opinion to what degree medical technology rides Moores law curve, though externally quite the opposite seems to be
      Message 2 of 13 , Oct 5, 2004
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        > Could we please limit futurist posts to futurist
        > topics. There are plenty of other forums to discuss
        > public policy.

        Fiar enough, anybody care to venture an opinion to what degree medical
        technology rides Moores law curve, though externally quite the opposite seems
        to be getting more costly?

        Some ideas:

        Computers aren't yet sophisticated enough to model human/drug interactions in
        any meaningful way, yet. Thus they can't help that much.

        Much of the trials is still non-automatible, thus relying upon human perception
        and labor.

        Scanning technology is still to primitive (lack of visibility) and unaccessible
        to be used in replacements of normal checkups and tests, and/or AI isn't
        sufficently robust to use these scans to determine problems (lack of
        perception, understanding).

        The cost involved in many Hi-tech items (e.g. MRI's, robotic surgeons) has
        nothing to do with end manufacturing costs, and economies of scale don't really
        help that much since so few of them are being made, and the barrier to entry is
        so high. This is not necessarily the case for small medical devices (e.g. IV
        needle butterfly's, home dialsis, insulin etc) which have been riding the rapid
        curve provided by technology and rapid prototyping, but they still have to go
        through expensive hurdles(liability, insurance, R&D, medical trials, marketing
        ).

        It's getting more expensive as the problems are getting harder. One might draw
        a parrallel between biotech trials and the cost of newer building new
        semiconductor factories. We've run out of asprins, now everything is smaller
        lesser known pathway. Just guessing that biotech research probably fails at a
        higher rate at a higher cost as in trials of drugs, a few people get sick or
        die, and nobody uses the drug anymore. Rather than breaking a piece of silicon
        or something.

        Curious if people would feel more comfortable with a robot surgeon (guided by a
        real one) than a real surgeon. At siggraph they were showing virtual surgeries
        using real scans, for practice, and placement/construction of part of a
        (artificial) jaw, but saying that part of the procedure still has to be done by
        hand due to regulations/trials.


        =====
        Troy Gardner -"How you live your seconds, is how you live your days, is how you live your life..."

        http://www.troygardner.com -my world, philosophy, music, writings.
        http://www.troyworks.com -consulting & training in Flash, Java, and C#
        http://www.intrio.com -helping bridge the gap between the humans and machines. Home of the Flickey�
      • Joschka Fisher
        from joschka fischer: I don t completely agree. Grandstanding...ok, that s out. But no matter what the technological/medical advances. That computer isn t
        Message 3 of 13 , Oct 5, 2004
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          from joschka fischer:

          I don't completely agree.


          Grandstanding...ok, that's out.

          But no matter what the technological/medical
          advances. That computer isn't gonna walk up to your
          door and administer the surgery.

          From unnecessary procedures like botox, to face
          transplants to emergency medicine....we lack the
          ability/will to deliver appropriate medical care to
          the masses and it is a "technology", defined by
          hardware, software and people.

          An until you figure that one out....no matter what
          you come up with in the research lab...is useless in
          the field!





          --- Greg Trifiletti <gregtrif@...> a écrit :
          >
          > Could we please limit futurist posts to futurist
          > topics. There are plenty of other forums to discuss
          > public policy. I enjoy some of the futurist thread
          > conversations and links generated by this group and
          > would rather not be driven off by off-theme banter.
          >
          > And no, I don't think this thread is futuristic in
          > any
          > meaningful way. Talking about how the technology of
          > health care will change over time and what those
          > implications might have on public health is one
          > thing.
          > Simplistic policy discussion ("Single payer is a
          > no-brainer") is political talk. If you want to
          > preach
          > that fixing the health care system is an easy
          > proposition, there are plenty of forums in the Bay
          > Area that will lend a sympatheic ear.
          >
          > Thanks,
          > Greg
          >
          >
          > --- "Song, Janice
          > Y." <janice.y.song@...> wrote:
          >
          > > >Single payer is a no-brainer in health policy,
          > but
          > > then Americans don't
          > > >have a social democratic party to speak sense in
          > > policy debates, just
          > > >the lame Democrats, so we debate medical savings
          > > accounts instead.
          > >
          > > We might just change that on November 2. If the
          > > Democrats win the White
          > > House, we will get the ball rolling. I don't think
          > > Kerry and Edwards are
          > > paying lip service to the domestic issues. If they
          > > win, they will clean
          > > house. If the Bush administration is re-elected,
          > at
          > > least they are forced to
          > > see (though they might not touch) the issue with
          > > their solution, supposedly
          > > medical savings accounts or personal investment
          > > accounts.
          > >
          > > Coincidentally, the issue was right on the front
          > > page of today's USA Today.
          > > I believe we are rapidly painting ourselves into
          > the
          > > corner because other
          > > problems are compounding. Namely funding the baby
          > > boomers' retirement
          > > benefits, Social Security and Medicare. Life is
          > full
          > > of ironies and one
          > > irony is that while we spend billions a year on
          > > chronic illnesses, we are
          > > also expected to have a longer life expectancy. So
          > > the math gets more
          > > complicated and the numbers reach into the
          > > stratosphere.
          > >
          > > USA Today printed a number of proposed solutions.
          > I
          > > like the "Enact Price
          > > Control" idea. To quote the paper, a) "A national
          > > health care system,
          > > similar to those in other industrialized
          > countries,
          > > could cut costs by
          > > setting prices, paying all bills and reducing
          > > overhead. A proposal published
          > > last year in the Journal of the American Medical
          > > Assocation would end
          > > private insurance and for-profit hospitals
          > > altogether." b) "Government could
          > > set best practice guidelines that doctors would
          > have
          > > to follow. For example,
          > > the government might determine that standard
          > > treatment for arthritis is
          > > ibuprofen at 10 cents a day rather than Celebrex
          > at
          > > $2 a day, unless there
          > > is a compelling reason to deviate from the best
          > > practice." c) "Price
          > > controls on prescription drugs, medical devices
          > and
          > > doctors' services could
          > > be enacted. For example, drug prices could be
          > > reduced by allowing lower-cost
          > > imports or changing patent laws to shorten a
          > > company's monopoly on a
          > > medicine." The conservatives want to push
          > tax-free
          > > personal investment
          > > accounts by diverting some of Social Security
          > taxes
          > > into personal retirement
          > > accounts, at reduced benefits. Other ideas are
          > > making the affluent pay more,
          > > raise the retirement age, and cut Medicare and
          > > Social Security costs.
          > >
          > > Some other facts from the "Money" section: Total
          > > U.S. health care costs are
          > > 14.6% of the GDP, compared to 5% in 1960. The cost
          > > of Social Security and
          > > medical care in the USA for the next 70 years are
          > > expected to hit $43
          > > trillion. In Sweden, the cost of a day's stay in
          > the
          > > hosptial is $11 and
          > > there is a cap of $122 on medical fees per year.
          > > Sweden's national and local
          > > tax base is 53% while USA's tax base is 43%.
          > Norway
          > > enjoys a budget surplus
          > > of 12% of its GDP.
          > >
          > > Janice
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
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        • Hughes, James J.
          ... I found this article interesting: The Impact of Medical Technology on Future Health Care Costs 2001 - Blue Cross
          Message 4 of 13 , Oct 5, 2004
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            > Fiar enough, anybody care to venture an opinion to what
            > degree medical technology rides Moores law curve, though
            > externally quite the opposite seems to be getting more costly?

            I found this article interesting:

            "The Impact of Medical Technology on Future Health Care Costs" 2001 -
            Blue Cross
            http://membership.hiaa.org/pdfs/FinalReport.pdf

            for all the things it left out:
            - anti-aging therapies
            - the disaggregation of the hospital into home diagnosis, treatment and
            care
            - nanomedicine

            Etc.

            > Computers aren't yet sophisticated enough to model human/drug
            > interactions in any meaningful way, yet. Thus they can't help
            > that much.

            Not true - there are quite a few experiments under way to model virtual
            drug trials.

            IMHO the other big cost saver (in addition to single payer) will be
            anti-aging therapy which will drive down the cost of treatment and care
            for the disabled elderly.

            ------------------------
            James J. Hughes Ph.D.
            Public Policy Studies
            Trinity College
            300 Summit St., Hartford CT 06106 USA
            james.hughes@...
            (office) 860-297-2376

            Executive Director
            World Transhumanist Association
            http://transhumanism.org
            Box 128, Willington CT 06279 USA
            director@...

            Author of Citizen Cyborg
            (Westview Press, 2004)
            http://cyborgdemocracy.net/citizencyborg.htm
          • Greg Trifiletti
            There are ways to dramatically change the cost of delivering effective health care to the greater population. As the species gains a better understanding of
            Message 5 of 13 , Oct 5, 2004
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              There are ways to dramatically change the cost of
              delivering effective health care to the greater
              population. As the species gains a better
              understanding of the genome, it is possible that
              medicine will experience significant increases in
              efficiencies.

              For example: if we can combine a deep understanding of
              the genome and strong computational power to allow for
              effective modeling, it may be possible to produce
              highly effective (and precise) drugs at a fraction of
              today's cost and time. A workable distribution system
              for drugs already exists; if the cost structure (to
              include government approval and oversight) are reduced
              significantly, it is possible to have a dramatic
              effect on health care with advances in just this one
              area.

              Will drug effectiveness increase that much? Will it
              be possible to have government oversight of health
              care altered in ways to help the market realize future
              efficiencies? I don't know - but the early 21st
              century seems to offer up real possibilities to
              improve health care in dramatic ways that may start to
              turn the tide of rising health care costs and
              shrinking health care access.


              --- Joschka Fisher <grabarkowic@...> wrote:

              > from joschka fischer:
              >
              > I don't completely agree.
              >
              >
              > Grandstanding...ok, that's out.
              >
              > But no matter what the technological/medical
              > advances. That computer isn't gonna walk up to
              > your
              > door and administer the surgery.
              >
              > From unnecessary procedures like botox, to face
              > transplants to emergency medicine....we lack the
              > ability/will to deliver appropriate medical care to
              > the masses and it is a "technology", defined by
              > hardware, software and people.
              >
              > An until you figure that one out....no matter what
              > you come up with in the research lab...is useless in
              > the field!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- Greg Trifiletti <gregtrif@...> a �crit�:
              > >
              > > Could we please limit futurist posts to futurist
              > > topics. There are plenty of other forums to
              > discuss
              > > public policy. I enjoy some of the futurist
              > thread
              > > conversations and links generated by this group
              > and
              > > would rather not be driven off by off-theme
              > banter.
              > >
              > > And no, I don't think this thread is futuristic in
              > > any
              > > meaningful way. Talking about how the technology
              > of
              > > health care will change over time and what those
              > > implications might have on public health is one
              > > thing.
              > > Simplistic policy discussion ("Single payer is a
              > > no-brainer") is political talk. If you want to
              > > preach
              > > that fixing the health care system is an easy
              > > proposition, there are plenty of forums in the Bay
              > > Area that will lend a sympatheic ear.
              > >
              > > Thanks,
              > > Greg
              > >
              > >
              > > --- "Song, Janice
              > > Y." <janice.y.song@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > > >Single payer is a no-brainer in health policy,
              > > but
              > > > then Americans don't
              > > > >have a social democratic party to speak sense
              > in
              > > > policy debates, just
              > > > >the lame Democrats, so we debate medical
              > savings
              > > > accounts instead.
              > > >
              > > > We might just change that on November 2. If the
              > > > Democrats win the White
              > > > House, we will get the ball rolling. I don't
              > think
              > > > Kerry and Edwards are
              > > > paying lip service to the domestic issues. If
              > they
              > > > win, they will clean
              > > > house. If the Bush administration is re-elected,
              > > at
              > > > least they are forced to
              > > > see (though they might not touch) the issue with
              > > > their solution, supposedly
              > > > medical savings accounts or personal investment
              > > > accounts.
              > > >
              > > > Coincidentally, the issue was right on the front
              > > > page of today's USA Today.
              > > > I believe we are rapidly painting ourselves into
              > > the
              > > > corner because other
              > > > problems are compounding. Namely funding the
              > baby
              > > > boomers' retirement
              > > > benefits, Social Security and Medicare. Life is
              > > full
              > > > of ironies and one
              > > > irony is that while we spend billions a year on
              > > > chronic illnesses, we are
              > > > also expected to have a longer life expectancy.
              > So
              > > > the math gets more
              > > > complicated and the numbers reach into the
              > > > stratosphere.
              > > >
              > > > USA Today printed a number of proposed
              > solutions.
              > > I
              > > > like the "Enact Price
              > > > Control" idea. To quote the paper, a) "A
              > national
              > > > health care system,
              > > > similar to those in other industrialized
              > > countries,
              > > > could cut costs by
              > > > setting prices, paying all bills and reducing
              > > > overhead. A proposal published
              > > > last year in the Journal of the American Medical
              > > > Assocation would end
              > > > private insurance and for-profit hospitals
              > > > altogether." b) "Government could
              > > > set best practice guidelines that doctors would
              > > have
              > > > to follow. For example,
              > > > the government might determine that standard
              > > > treatment for arthritis is
              > > > ibuprofen at 10 cents a day rather than Celebrex
              > > at
              > > > $2 a day, unless there
              > > > is a compelling reason to deviate from the best
              > > > practice." c) "Price
              > > > controls on prescription drugs, medical devices
              > > and
              > > > doctors' services could
              > > > be enacted. For example, drug prices could be
              > > > reduced by allowing lower-cost
              > > > imports or changing patent laws to shorten a
              > > > company's monopoly on a
              > > > medicine." The conservatives want to push
              > > tax-free
              > > > personal investment
              > > > accounts by diverting some of Social Security
              > > taxes
              > > > into personal retirement
              > > > accounts, at reduced benefits. Other ideas are
              > > > making the affluent pay more,
              > > > raise the retirement age, and cut Medicare and
              > > > Social Security costs.
              > > >
              > > > Some other facts from the "Money" section: Total
              > > > U.S. health care costs are
              > > > 14.6% of the GDP, compared to 5% in 1960. The
              > cost
              > > > of Social Security and
              > > > medical care in the USA for the next 70 years
              > are
              > > > expected to hit $43
              > > > trillion. In Sweden, the cost of a day's stay in
              > > the
              > > > hosptial is $11 and
              > > > there is a cap of $122 on medical fees per year.
              > > > Sweden's national and local
              > > > tax base is 53% while USA's tax base is 43%.
              > > Norway
              > > > enjoys a budget surplus
              > > > of 12% of its GDP.
              > > >
              > > > Janice
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              > > --------------------~-->
              > > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion
              > > Toolbar.
              > > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
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              >
              http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/sVPplB/TM
              > >
              >
              --------------------------------------------------------------------~->
              > >
              > >
              > > to:
              > > bafuture-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > > bafuture-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              === message truncated ===
            • Joschka Fisher
              Greetings from joscha fischer: I ll capitulate on this..., insofar as I d like to see some commentary & preferably data on not just some new medical technique
              Message 6 of 13 , Oct 5, 2004
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                Greetings from joscha fischer:

                I'll capitulate on this..., insofar as I'd like to
                see
                some commentary & preferably data on not just some new
                medical technique but additionally how it's being
                "gotten to the masses" for lack of a better term.

                One poster keeps putting a computer between every
                problem and the public. That's not the answer. The
                French realized it and it's certainly bad for your sex
                life :).

                Anywho....solutions that exempt man's direct
                interaction seem shortsighted



                --- Joschka Fisher <grabarkowic@...> a écrit :
                >
                > from joschka fischer:
                >
                > I don't completely agree.
                >
                >
                > Grandstanding...ok, that's out.
                >
                > But no matter what the technological/medical
                > advances. That computer isn't gonna walk up to
                > your
                > door and administer the surgery.
                >
                > From unnecessary procedures like botox, to face
                > transplants to emergency medicine....we lack the
                > ability/will to deliver appropriate medical care to
                > the masses and it is a "technology", defined by
                > hardware, software and people.
                >
                > An until you figure that one out....no matter what
                > you come up with in the research lab...is useless in
                > the field!
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- Greg Trifiletti <gregtrif@...> a écrit :
                > >
                > > Could we please limit futurist posts to futurist
                > > topics. There are plenty of other forums to
                > discuss
                > > public policy. I enjoy some of the futurist
                > thread
                > > conversations and links generated by this group
                > and
                > > would rather not be driven off by off-theme
                > banter.
                > >
                > > And no, I don't think this thread is futuristic in
                > > any
                > > meaningful way. Talking about how the technology
                > of
                > > health care will change over time and what those
                > > implications might have on public health is one
                > > thing.
                > > Simplistic policy discussion ("Single payer is a
                > > no-brainer") is political talk. If you want to
                > > preach
                > > that fixing the health care system is an easy
                > > proposition, there are plenty of forums in the Bay
                > > Area that will lend a sympatheic ear.
                > >
                > > Thanks,
                > > Greg
                > >
                > >
                > > --- "Song, Janice
                > > Y." <janice.y.song@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > > >Single payer is a no-brainer in health policy,
                > > but
                > > > then Americans don't
                > > > >have a social democratic party to speak sense
                > in
                > > > policy debates, just
                > > > >the lame Democrats, so we debate medical
                > savings
                > > > accounts instead.
                > > >
                > > > We might just change that on November 2. If the
                > > > Democrats win the White
                > > > House, we will get the ball rolling. I don't
                > think
                > > > Kerry and Edwards are
                > > > paying lip service to the domestic issues. If
                > they
                > > > win, they will clean
                > > > house. If the Bush administration is re-elected,
                > > at
                > > > least they are forced to
                > > > see (though they might not touch) the issue with
                > > > their solution, supposedly
                > > > medical savings accounts or personal investment
                > > > accounts.
                > > >
                > > > Coincidentally, the issue was right on the front
                > > > page of today's USA Today.
                > > > I believe we are rapidly painting ourselves into
                > > the
                > > > corner because other
                > > > problems are compounding. Namely funding the
                > baby
                > > > boomers' retirement
                > > > benefits, Social Security and Medicare. Life is
                > > full
                > > > of ironies and one
                > > > irony is that while we spend billions a year on
                > > > chronic illnesses, we are
                > > > also expected to have a longer life expectancy.
                > So
                > > > the math gets more
                > > > complicated and the numbers reach into the
                > > > stratosphere.
                > > >
                > > > USA Today printed a number of proposed
                > solutions.
                > > I
                > > > like the "Enact Price
                > > > Control" idea. To quote the paper, a) "A
                > national
                > > > health care system,
                > > > similar to those in other industrialized
                > > countries,
                > > > could cut costs by
                > > > setting prices, paying all bills and reducing
                > > > overhead. A proposal published
                > > > last year in the Journal of the American Medical
                > > > Assocation would end
                > > > private insurance and for-profit hospitals
                > > > altogether." b) "Government could
                > > > set best practice guidelines that doctors would
                > > have
                > > > to follow. For example,
                > > > the government might determine that standard
                > > > treatment for arthritis is
                > > > ibuprofen at 10 cents a day rather than Celebrex
                > > at
                > > > $2 a day, unless there
                > > > is a compelling reason to deviate from the best
                > > > practice." c) "Price
                > > > controls on prescription drugs, medical devices
                > > and
                > > > doctors' services could
                > > > be enacted. For example, drug prices could be
                > > > reduced by allowing lower-cost
                > > > imports or changing patent laws to shorten a
                > > > company's monopoly on a
                > > > medicine." The conservatives want to push
                > > tax-free
                > > > personal investment
                > > > accounts by diverting some of Social Security
                > > taxes
                > > > into personal retirement
                > > > accounts, at reduced benefits. Other ideas are
                > > > making the affluent pay more,
                > > > raise the retirement age, and cut Medicare and
                > > > Social Security costs.
                > > >
                > > > Some other facts from the "Money" section: Total
                > > > U.S. health care costs are
                > > > 14.6% of the GDP, compared to 5% in 1960. The
                > cost
                > > > of Social Security and
                > > > medical care in the USA for the next 70 years
                > are
                > > > expected to hit $43
                > > > trillion. In Sweden, the cost of a day's stay in
                > > the
                > > > hosptial is $11 and
                > > > there is a cap of $122 on medical fees per year.
                > > > Sweden's national and local
                > > > tax base is 53% while USA's tax base is 43%.
                > > Norway
                > > > enjoys a budget surplus
                > > > of 12% of its GDP.
                > > >
                > > > Janice
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
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                > >
                >
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                > >
                >
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                > >
                > >
                > > to:
                > > bafuture-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > > bafuture-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                === message truncated ===






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