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Ultimate Direction SpeeDemon Pack, LTR - Todd

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  • Todd
    See below for my long term report. It is also available in the test folder at: http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/test/TESTS/Ultimate%
    Message 1 of 5 , Aug 16, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      See below for my long term report. It is also available in the test
      folder at:
      http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/test/TESTS/Ultimate%
      20Direction%20SpeeDemon%20Pack,%20LTR,%20Todd/
      or:
      http://tinyurl.com/cd24b

      Long Term Report: Ultimate Direction - SpeeDemon Pack
      Personal Biographical Info:
       
      Name: Todd Martin
      Age: 41
      Gender: Male
      Height: 5'11" (1.8 m)
      Weight: 155 lbs. (68 kg)
      Waist: 31" (79 cm)
      Torso Length: 18.5" (47 cm)
      Email Address: todds_hiking_guide (at) yahoo (dot) com
      Location: Phoenix, AZ USA
      Date: August 16, 2005

      Background:
      As an avid hiker all of my adult life I have thru-hiked the
      Appalachian Trail in the eastern US and sections of the Pacific
      Crest Trail in the west. I currently reside in the desert southwest
      and spend most weekends and all vacations hiking and exploring. I
      prefer long hikes and traveling with a light pack. My current base
      backpacking weight (not including food or water) measures about 10
      lbs (4.5 kg). My web site Todd's Desert Hiking Guide contains
      detailed information, descriptions and photographs of many hikes and
      canyons in Arizona and Utah.

      Product Information:
       
      Manufacturer: Ultimate Direction (http://www.ultimatedirection.com/)
      Style of Product: Lightweight backpack
      Color: Red and gray
      Year of Manufacture: 2005
      List Price: Not listed on the Manufacturer's Website
      Listed Weight: 39 oz (1.1 kg)
      Weight as Delivered: Pack - 30 oz (0.85 kg)
      Water Reservoir and Tube - 7 oz (0.2 kg)
      Total Weight - 37 oz (1 kg)
      Capacity: Storage Capacity: 2300 cu. in. (37.7 L)
      Fluid Capacity: 96 oz. (2.8 L )
      Material: 70D Nylon baby rip stop with hypalon coating, 210D Nylon,
      3D AirMesh

      Field and Test Information:
       
      Location(s) of test: The pack was tested in the mountains and
      deserts of Arizona including the Tonto, Coconino and Kaibab National
      Forests.
      Terrain: Trips consisted of both on and off trail hikes during which
      time the pack was subjected to a considerable amount of bushwhacking
      and brush.
      Weather Conditions: Hot!

      Description of Experience and Comments on Product Performance:
       
      The SpeeDemon pack was carried on a number of day hikes in the
      deserts of Arizona including several canyoneering trips in which the
      pack was filled to capacity with ropes and technical gear. The
      maximum weight carried on these excursions was approximately 30
      pounds (13.6 kg).

      Suspension System and Comfort:
      Probably the single most important feature for me in determining the
      comfort of a pack is the suspension system. The suspension
      determines where the load rides on your body and how it is
      distributed. There is no doubt a big difference between carrying 30
      lbs (13.6 kg) of rocks in a pillowcase versus a high performance
      backpack. The pack body is merely a cloth sack, like a pillowcase,
      it's the pack's suspension that makes all the difference in how the
      load carries.

      Unfortunately, my opinion of the SpeeDemon's suspension system has
      changed very little since my field report. My experience is that the
      foam stays give the pack some shape and support but do little to
      support the weight of the contents of the pack and keep the load
      from being transferred to the hiker's shoulders. The pack, instead,
      relies on the contents to give the pack form and rigidity. The
      problem with this design is that the hiker must carry a certain
      volume of gear in order to fill the pack sufficiently to provide
      this rigidity. Normally on day hikes, I carry little beyond a rain
      jacket, food, water, a map, camera and small bag of miscellaneous
      items (lip balm, sunscreen, spare batteries, etc.). In this
      scenario, the gear falls to the bottom of the pack and with nothing
      to support it, the pack tends to fold in the middle and slump onto
      my shoulders (which, to be fair, is not that big of a deal since I'm
      not carrying very much weight to begin with).

      It should be noted that straps at the bottom and sides of the pack
      can be used to compress the volume of the pack to help conform the
      pack to the volume of the contents. These work well for medium sized
      loads, but not when the load is small as described above.
      I've also used the pack for canyoneering trips where I typically
      carry considerably more gear than on a day hike. On these trips I've
      filled the cargo section of the pack with the typical day hike gear,
      plus the addition of rope, harness, and dry bags. My helmet was
      stored in the rear pocket (which I've found holds it quite
      securely), and I've often secured a wet suit under the bottom
      compression straps. In this configuration, the pack is considerably
      more rigid, with the gear providing support to the pack.

      When canyoneering I've carried up to 30 pounds (13.6 kg) in the
      SpeeDemon pack and, while not exactly comfortable, have found it to
      be bearable. My main complaint is that much of the weight is carried
      on my shoulders. The reason this is the case appears to be due to
      the fact that the load lifters don't actually do any "lifting" (they
      are connected to the pack below the level of my shoulders). The load
      lifters do add some value by pulling the weight of the pack closer
      to my body. This helps to transfer some of the weight of the pack to
      the hip belt, though I have not found it possible to remove all the
      weight from the tops of my shoulders. The continuous shoulder straps
      distribute the remaining weight evenly between my shoulders, but,
      due to an old back injury, I greatly prefer to keep all weight on my
      hips.

      When loaded, the SpeeDemon also pulls back quite a bit, putting
      strain on the front of my shoulders. For this reason it is necessary
      to always utilize the sternum strap when hiking with the pack. The
      sternum strap pulls the weight of the pack closer to my back,
      reducing this drag. They also pull the shoulder straps together,
      since they otherwise tend to sit very wide on my shoulders. Though I
      typically do not hike with a sternum strap, since I find that it
      restricts movement in my chest and adds another step to donning or
      doffing the pack, I find it is more comfortable to use it in the
      case of the SpeeDemon. Fortunately, the strap is elasticized and
      does not restrict my breathing in any way, though it does add
      another clip to deal with when putting on or removing the pack.

      The fit of the pack is adjusted to the user by what the manufacturer
      calls its "Torso Link Suspension System". The system allows the
      upper back pad and shoulder strap assembly to be raised or lowered
      relative to the pack using hook and loop fastener strips located
      behind the back pad and within the pack body. Since hikers have
      different types of bodies, having a system that allows for a custom
      fitted pack is a good idea in theory; unfortunately my experience is
      that the design used in the SpeeDemon pack does not work in
      practice. The main reason this is the case appears to be design of
      the load lifters. Because the load lifters are connected to the pack
      body (and not part of the Torso Link System) raising the system
      causes the load lifter straps to fall lower and lower below the
      hiker's back. It also routes the straps further and further from the
      padded straps that go over the hiker's shoulders. Imagine a pack
      that has load lifters which connect at a point below the hikers
      shoulder blades. There's a reason packs are not designed this way,
      it simply doesn't confer any benefit (in fact it actually adds
      discomfort). Unfortunately, this is exactly what raising the
      suspension system accomplishes with the SpeeDemon. My experience has
      been that raising the system causes all the pack weight to hang off
      my shoulders in an extremely uncomfortable fashion. For this reason
      I always hike with the system set in its shortest possible position.

      Lastly, in my discussion of comfort, I'd like to mention the pack's
      3D AirMesh back panel and shoulder straps. I've found the straps to
      be soft and comfortable, and that they've done a good job
      controlling moisture build up even on hikes in excess of 100 F (38
      C). I have also found that these padded straps don't soak up water
      like a sponge unlike some other packs I own. Canyoneering hikes
      often involve wading and swimming while carrying a pack. Any
      absorbed water ultimately becomes extra unnecessary weight that the
      hiker must carry.

      Performance and Durability:
      Since much of the hiking that I've done during this test period has
      been off trail, the SpeeDemon pack has been subjected to brush,
      branches, rocks and thorns. The pack has so far held up well under
      these conditions, and still appears as good as new. The 70D nylon
      fabric from which the pack is made is quite slick and tends to glide
      through brush rather than getting snagged and torn. The big
      exception is the bungee cords on the back of the pack, which tend to
      get snagged on branches. This has not caused any damage to the pack,
      but it has caused me to get hung up on several occasions.

      Though I have not had the opportunity to test the pack in the rain
      during this test period I have been able to evaluate the pack in a
      wet canyon environment. The manufacturer advertises that the hypalon
      coated pack body and zippers are waterproof. Though they make no
      claims as to whether the pack is waterproof as a whole, my
      experience is that the pack provides significant water resistance
      even when the pack has been completely immersed. When canyoneering
      the pack has been thrown into deep pools, submerged and worn while
      swimming. Under these conditions, I've found that the pack takes on
      very little water and what little did get inside drained quickly
      through the small grommets in the bottom of the pack. I would fully
      expect the pack to provide water resistance to sprinkles or light
      rain showers for hikers, though I'd recommend that hikers provide
      additional protection from the elements for critical items that need
      to remain dry.

      Miscellaneous:
      Though it's really outside the scope of this report, I thought I'd
      put in a brief word as to the 'styling' of the SpeeDemon and its
      bright red color in particular. I'm typically not a big fan of
      bright colors in a wilderness setting, preferring instead to dress
      in a manner consistent with 'Leave No Trace' principles:

      "Bright clothing and equipment, such as tents can be seen for long
      distances are discouraged. Especially in open natural areas, colors
      such as day-glow yellow are disturbing and contribute to a crowded
      feeling; choose earth-toned colors (i.e. browns and greens) to
      lesson visual impacts."

      - Leave No Trace Principle #7 Be Considerate of Other Visitors

      With that said I actually don't find the pack to be visually
      distracting (though I don't have to look at it while hiking since
      it's on my back) and have found that the color makes it really stand
      out in photographs. Overall the styling of the pack is attractive
      and it has a `sporty' look to it that might appeal to the adventure
      racing crowd.

      Summary:
       
      My main complaint with the SpeeDemon pack is associated with the
      suspension system and load lifters. I find that my back is
      aggravated when forced to carry additional weight on my shoulders
      and the suspension system simply doesn't transfer enough of the
      pack's weight to the hip belt to suit my needs. I my not be
      considered a typical hiker in that by back is somewhat sensitive to
      do an old injury, though I do not know many hikers that prefer
      carrying weight on their shoulders as opposed to their hips.
      With that said, the SpeeDemon does have many positive features. The
      pack is light weight, has enough storage capacity to carry plenty of
      gear and allows easy access to all the most frequently used items
      (water, snacks and camera) without having to stop and take off the
      pack. It also appears to be durable and highly water resistant.

      Likes:
      Light weight
      Plenty of storage room for day hikes, could easily be used for light
      weight overnight trips
      Plenty of hydration options
      Hydration tube fits easily through the hole in the back of the pack
      Hip belt pockets are very useful for carrying a camera and snacks
      The water reservoir is fairly stable when placed on uneven ground
      There is little taste to water in the reservoir compared with other
      hydration systems I have used
      Durable
      Highly water resistant

      Areas for Improvement:
      The pack's foam suspension is weak, resulting in pack slump when the
      pack is not completely filled
      Too much of the pack weight is carried on the shoulders
      Load lifters do a mediocre job lifting the pack weight off the
      hiker's shoulders
      Load lifters are displaced from the pack's shoulder straps when the
      adjustable suspension system is raised
      The water reservoir pocket is cut too large and is not elasticized,
      causing it to get in the way of loading gear into the main
      compartment
      The water reservoir nozzle on both the old and new reservoir doesn't
      work very well for me
      I'd like to see waterproof zippers added to the hip belt pouches,
      since I use them to carry my camera

      General Comments:
      Waterproof zippers are a little stiff to open & close
      When I pick up the pack by a single shoulder strap, the continuous
      strap slips and it becomes very long and somewhat awkward to carry
      The removable shoulder strap mounted water bottle holsters get in
      the way of the natural swing of my arm
    • Pascal Deschenes
      Nice pics! ... === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 16, 2005
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        Nice pics!

        --- Todd <todds_hiking_guide@...> wrote:

        > See below for my long term report. It is also available in the test
        > folder at:
        > http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/test/TESTS/Ultimate%
        > 20Direction%20SpeeDemon%20Pack,%20LTR,%20Todd/
        > or:
        > http://tinyurl.com/cd24b
        >
        > Long Term Report: Ultimate Direction - SpeeDemon Pack
        > Personal Biographical Info:
        >
        > Name: Todd Martin
        > Age: 41
        > Gender: Male
        > Height: 5'11" (1.8 m)
        > Weight: 155 lbs. (68 kg)
        > Waist: 31" (79 cm)
        > Torso Length: 18.5" (47 cm)
        > Email Address: todds_hiking_guide (at) yahoo (dot) com
        > Location: Phoenix, AZ USA
        > Date: August 16, 2005
        >
        > Background:
        > As an avid hiker all of my adult life I have thru-hiked the
        > Appalachian Trail in the eastern US and sections of the Pacific
        > Crest Trail in the west. I currently reside in the desert southwest
        > and spend most weekends and all vacations hiking and exploring. I
        > prefer long hikes and traveling with a light pack. My current base
        > backpacking weight (not including food or water) measures about 10
        > lbs (4.5 kg). My web site Todd's Desert Hiking Guide contains
        > detailed information, descriptions and photographs of many hikes and
        > canyons in Arizona and Utah.
        >
        > Product Information:
        >
        > Manufacturer: Ultimate Direction (http://www.ultimatedirection.com/)
        > Style of Product: Lightweight backpack
        > Color: Red and gray
        > Year of Manufacture: 2005
        > List Price: Not listed on the Manufacturer's Website
        > Listed Weight: 39 oz (1.1 kg)
        > Weight as Delivered: Pack - 30 oz (0.85 kg)
        > Water Reservoir and Tube - 7 oz (0.2 kg)
        > Total Weight - 37 oz (1 kg)
        > Capacity: Storage Capacity: 2300 cu. in. (37.7 L)
        > Fluid Capacity: 96 oz. (2.8 L )
        > Material: 70D Nylon baby rip stop with hypalon coating, 210D Nylon,
        > 3D AirMesh
        >
        > Field and Test Information:
        >
        > Location(s) of test: The pack was tested in the mountains and
        > deserts of Arizona including the Tonto, Coconino and Kaibab National
        > Forests.
        > Terrain: Trips consisted of both on and off trail hikes during which
        > time the pack was subjected to a considerable amount of bushwhacking
        > and brush.
        > Weather Conditions: Hot!
        >
        > Description of Experience and Comments on Product Performance:
        >
        > The SpeeDemon pack was carried on a number of day hikes in the
        > deserts of Arizona including several canyoneering trips in which the
        > pack was filled to capacity with ropes and technical gear. The
        > maximum weight carried on these excursions was approximately 30
        > pounds (13.6 kg).
        >
        > Suspension System and Comfort:
        > Probably the single most important feature for me in determining the
        > comfort of a pack is the suspension system. The suspension
        > determines where the load rides on your body and how it is
        > distributed. There is no doubt a big difference between carrying 30
        > lbs (13.6 kg) of rocks in a pillowcase versus a high performance
        > backpack. The pack body is merely a cloth sack, like a pillowcase,
        > it's the pack's suspension that makes all the difference in how the
        > load carries.
        >
        > Unfortunately, my opinion of the SpeeDemon's suspension system has
        > changed very little since my field report. My experience is that the
        > foam stays give the pack some shape and support but do little to
        > support the weight of the contents of the pack and keep the load
        > from being transferred to the hiker's shoulders. The pack, instead,
        > relies on the contents to give the pack form and rigidity. The
        > problem with this design is that the hiker must carry a certain
        > volume of gear in order to fill the pack sufficiently to provide
        > this rigidity. Normally on day hikes, I carry little beyond a rain
        > jacket, food, water, a map, camera and small bag of miscellaneous
        > items (lip balm, sunscreen, spare batteries, etc.). In this
        > scenario, the gear falls to the bottom of the pack and with nothing
        > to support it, the pack tends to fold in the middle and slump onto
        > my shoulders (which, to be fair, is not that big of a deal since I'm
        > not carrying very much weight to begin with).
        >
        > It should be noted that straps at the bottom and sides of the pack
        > can be used to compress the volume of the pack to help conform the
        > pack to the volume of the contents. These work well for medium sized
        > loads, but not when the load is small as described above.
        > I've also used the pack for canyoneering trips where I typically
        > carry considerably more gear than on a day hike. On these trips I've
        > filled the cargo section of the pack with the typical day hike gear,
        > plus the addition of rope, harness, and dry bags. My helmet was
        > stored in the rear pocket (which I've found holds it quite
        > securely), and I've often secured a wet suit under the bottom
        > compression straps. In this configuration, the pack is considerably
        > more rigid, with the gear providing support to the pack.
        >
        > When canyoneering I've carried up to 30 pounds (13.6 kg) in the
        > SpeeDemon pack and, while not exactly comfortable, have found it to
        > be bearable. My main complaint is that much of the weight is carried
        > on my shoulders. The reason this is the case appears to be due to
        > the fact that the load lifters don't actually do any "lifting" (they
        > are connected to the pack below the level of my shoulders). The load
        > lifters do add some value by pulling the weight of the pack closer
        > to my body. This helps to transfer some of the weight of the pack to
        > the hip belt, though I have not found it possible to remove all the
        > weight from the tops of my shoulders. The continuous shoulder straps
        > distribute the remaining weight evenly between my shoulders, but,
        > due to an old back injury, I greatly prefer to keep all weight on my
        > hips.
        >
        > When loaded, the SpeeDemon also pulls back quite a bit, putting
        > strain on the front of my shoulders. For this reason it is necessary
        > to always utilize the sternum strap when hiking with the pack. The
        > sternum strap pulls the weight of the pack closer to my back,
        > reducing this drag. They also pull the shoulder straps together,
        > since they otherwise tend to sit very wide on my shoulders. Though I
        > typically do not hike with a sternum strap, since I find that it
        > restricts movement in my chest and adds another step to donning or
        > doffing the pack, I find it is more comfortable to use it in the
        > case of the SpeeDemon. Fortunately, the strap is elasticized and
        > does not restrict my breathing in any way, though it does add
        > another clip to deal with when putting on or removing the pack.
        >
        > The fit of the pack is adjusted to the user by what the manufacturer
        > calls its "Torso Link Suspension System". The system allows the
        > upper back pad and shoulder strap assembly to be raised or lowered
        > relative to the pack using hook and loop fastener strips located
        > behind the back pad and within the pack body. Since hikers have
        > different types of bodies, having a system that allows for a custom
        > fitted pack is a good idea in theory; unfortunately my experience is
        > that the design used in the SpeeDemon pack does not work in
        > practice. The main reason this is the case appears to be design of
        > the load lifters. Because the load lifters are connected to the pack
        > body (and not part of the Torso Link System) raising the system
        > causes the load lifter straps to fall lower and lower below the
        > hiker's back. It also routes the straps further and further from the
        > padded straps that go over the hiker's shoulders. Imagine a pack
        > that has load lifters which connect at a point below the hikers
        > shoulder blades. There's a reason packs are not designed this way,
        > it simply doesn't confer any benefit (in fact it actually adds
        > discomfort). Unfortunately, this is exactly what raising the
        > suspension system accomplishes with the SpeeDemon. My experience has
        > been that raising the system causes all the pack weight to hang off
        > my shoulders in an extremely uncomfortable fashion. For this reason
        > I always hike with the system set in its shortest possible position.
        >
        > Lastly, in my discussion of comfort, I'd like to mention the pack's
        > 3D AirMesh back panel and shoulder straps. I've found the straps to
        > be soft and comfortable, and that they've done a good job
        > controlling moisture build up even on hikes in excess of 100 F (38
        > C). I have also found that these padded straps don't soak up water
        > like a sponge unlike some other packs I own. Canyoneering hikes
        > often involve wading and swimming while carrying a pack. Any
        > absorbed water ultimately becomes extra unnecessary weight that the
        > hiker must carry.
        >
        > Performance and Durability:
        > Since much of the hiking that I've done during this test period has
        > been off trail, the SpeeDemon pack has been subjected to brush,
        > branches, rocks and thorns. The pack has so far held up well under
        > these conditions, and still appears as good as new. The 70D nylon
        > fabric from which the pack is made is quite slick and tends to glide
        > through brush rather than getting snagged and torn. The big
        > exception is the bungee cords on the back of the pack, which tend to
        > get snagged on branches. This has not caused any damage to the pack,
        > but it has caused me to get hung up on several occasions.
        >
        > Though I have not had the opportunity to test the pack in the rain
        > during this test period I have been able to evaluate the pack in a
        > wet canyon environment. The manufacturer advertises that the hypalon
        > coated pack body and zippers are waterproof. Though they make no
        > claims as to whether the pack is waterproof as a whole, my
        > experience is that the pack provides significant water resistance
        > even when the pack has been completely immersed. When canyoneering
        > the pack has been thrown into deep pools, submerged and worn while
        > swimming. Under these conditions, I've found that the pack takes on
        > very little water and what little did get inside drained quickly
        > through the small grommets in the bottom of the pack. I would fully
        > expect the pack to provide water resistance to sprinkles or light
        > rain showers for hikers, though I'd recommend that hikers provide
        > additional protection from the elements for critical items that need
        > to remain dry.
        >
        > Miscellaneous:
        > Though it's really outside the scope of this report, I thought I'd
        > put in a brief word as to the 'styling' of the SpeeDemon and its
        > bright red color in particular. I'm typically not a big fan of
        > bright colors in a wilderness setting, preferring instead to dress
        > in a manner consistent with 'Leave No Trace' principles:
        >
        > "Bright clothing and equipment, such as tents can be seen for long
        > distances are discouraged. Especially in open natural areas, colors
        >
        === message truncated ===


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      • Andrew Priest
        ... Dear Todd Thanks for your excellent report. Great to read it and loved the photos. I know a few people down this way who are very impressed with your
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 18, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          Todd wrote:
          >
          > Miscellaneous:
          > Though it's really outside the scope of this report, I thought I'd
          > put in a brief word as to the 'styling' of the SpeeDemon and its
          > bright red color in particular. I'm typically not a big fan of
          > bright colors in a wilderness setting, preferring instead to dress
          > in a manner consistent with 'Leave No Trace' principles:
          >
          > "Bright clothing and equipment, such as tents can be seen for long
          > distances are discouraged. Especially in open natural areas, colors
          > such as day-glow yellow are disturbing and contribute to a crowded
          > feeling; choose earth-toned colors (i.e. browns and greens) to
          > lesson visual impacts."
          >
          > - Leave No Trace Principle #7 Be Considerate of Other Visitors
          >
          > With that said I actually don't find the pack to be visually
          > distracting (though I don't have to look at it while hiking since
          > it's on my back) and have found that the color makes it really stand
          > out in photographs. Overall the styling of the pack is attractive
          > and it has a `sporty' look to it that might appeal to the adventure
          > racing crowd.

          Dear Todd

          Thanks for your excellent report. Great to read it and loved the photos.
          I know a few people down this way who are very impressed with your
          photography.

          All that said, there is some concern about this section of your report.
          Jerry has already raised the point re the link, which is anyway outside
          our External links policy.

          That said you correctly state in respect of this section that it is
          "really outside the scope of this report."

          It is because this section is outside the scope of our reporting
          function that we area asking that you please remove this section.

          If you wish to include a brief I don't like the colour in the things you
          don't like go for it but I am not really sure it adds value to your report.

          Thanks
          Andrew
        • Todd
          Not a problem, that section has been removed. -Todd ... photos. ... your ... report. ... outside ... is ... things you ... your report.
          Message 4 of 5 , Aug 18, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            Not a problem, that section has been removed.

            -Todd

            > Dear Todd
            >
            > Thanks for your excellent report. Great to read it and loved the
            photos.
            > I know a few people down this way who are very impressed with
            your
            > photography.
            >
            > All that said, there is some concern about this section of your
            report.
            > Jerry has already raised the point re the link, which is anyway
            outside
            > our External links policy.
            >
            > That said you correctly state in respect of this section that it
            is
            > "really outside the scope of this report."
            >
            > It is because this section is outside the scope of our reporting
            > function that we area asking that you please remove this section.
            >
            > If you wish to include a brief I don't like the colour in the
            things you
            > don't like go for it but I am not really sure it adds value to
            your report.
            >
            > Thanks
            > Andrew
          • Andrew Priest
            ... Thanks Todd. Andrew
            Message 5 of 5 , Aug 22, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              Todd wrote:
              > Not a problem, that section has been removed.
              >

              Thanks Todd.

              Andrew
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