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Attn Sheila: FR - Big Agnes Clearview Air Pad - Sheila

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  • mwood_bgt@markandkc.net
    Sheila, It appears that your FR for the Big Agnes Clearview Air Pad has been removed from the Test area. Could you please re-upload it and I ll complete your
    Message 1 of 15 , Sep 1, 2008
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      Sheila,

      It appears that your FR for the Big Agnes Clearview Air Pad has been
      removed from the Test area.

      Could you please re-upload it and I'll complete your edits!

      Thanks,

      Mark Wood
    • S
      Hi Mark, It seems that they d like these two Big Agnes reports at different times. I will only be using the products together, but the report will be sitting
      Message 2 of 15 , Sep 1, 2008
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        Hi Mark,

        It seems that they'd like these two Big Agnes reports at different times. I will only be using
        the products together, but the report will be sitting on my computer for another couple of
        weeks. Sorry for the confusion, I didn't realize the dates were so distant for the two
        reports. I'll upload this one again in a couple of weeks.

        Sheila


        --- In backpackgeartesters@yahoogroups.com, mwood_bgt@... wrote:
        >
        > Sheila,
        >
        > It appears that your FR for the Big Agnes Clearview Air Pad has been
        > removed from the Test area.
        >
        > Could you please re-upload it and I'll complete your edits!
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Mark Wood
        >
      • Mark Wood
        Works for me Sheila! I ll look for it! ... From: S To: Backpackgeartesters ReplyTo: Backpackgeartesters Subject: [backpackgeartesters] Re: Attn Sheila: FR -
        Message 3 of 15 , Sep 1, 2008
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          Works for me Sheila! I'll look for it!


          ------Original Message------
          From: S
          To: Backpackgeartesters
          ReplyTo: Backpackgeartesters
          Subject: [backpackgeartesters] Re: Attn Sheila: FR - Big Agnes Clearview Air Pad - Sheila
          Sent: Sep 1, 2008 11:15 AM

          Hi Mark,

          It seems that they'd like these two Big Agnes reports at different times. I will only be using
          the products together, but the report will be sitting on my computer for another couple of
          weeks. Sorry for the confusion, I didn't realize the dates were so distant for the two
          reports. I'll upload this one again in a couple of weeks.

          Sheila


          --- In backpackgeartesters@yahoogroups.com, mwood_bgt@... wrote:
          >
          > Sheila,
          >
          > It appears that your FR for the Big Agnes Clearview Air Pad has been
          > removed from the Test area.
          >
          > Could you please re-upload it and I'll complete your edits!
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > Mark Wood
          >




          ------------------------------------

          Yahoo! Groups Links





          Mark Wood
          -------------
          Sent via BlackBerry
        • S
          Hi Mark, Here s my FR for the Big Agnes Clearview Air Pad. Sheila http://tinyurl.com/3re669 Field Report: September 9, 2008 FIELD CONDITIONS I have so far used
          Message 4 of 15 , Sep 11, 2008
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            Hi Mark,

            Here's my FR for the Big Agnes Clearview Air Pad.

            Sheila



            http://tinyurl.com/3re669


            Field Report: September 9, 2008
            FIELD CONDITIONS
            I have so far used the Big Agnes Clearview Air Pad for a total of five nights, including one
            night at home, one night near a trailhead and three nights on a trail. The pad only held air
            on the first four of these five nights.

            I would never normally include a night at home in my report, but since this product was so
            short-lived, I'll throw that extra day in here for Big Agnes' benefit. That night there was a
            big wildfire nearby, so I slept downstairs. I used this pad with my Big Agnes Elbert sleeping
            bag on the carpeted floor. The temperature was about 70 F (21 C).

            I used the Clearview for one night at a walk-in campground and three nights of
            backpacking on California's Lost Coast. I paired the Clearview with a Big Agnes Elbert
            sleeping bag and slept inside a tent. The elevation was near sea level and the overnight
            low temperature was about 50 F (10 C).

            FIELD RESULTS
            I thought the Clearview pad fit perfectly with my Elbert sleeping bag. Afterall, they were
            designed for that purpose. When I put them together for my Initial Report, I noticed that
            one channel of the eight air channels making up the Clearview was popping up. I just
            assumed that wouldn't happen when I laid down on the pad overnight. Instead, what
            happened was that one or two of the channels along the side popped up, rolling me off
            the pad. I don't know whether the pad is too wide or the pocket on the sleeping bag is too
            narrow, but they don't fit together well, making it hard to sleep on this pad. The thickness
            of the pad did mean I got some good sleep for the moments when I was able to stay on
            the pad without rolling off. In order to keep the pad from rolling me off of it, I tried not
            inflating it all the way one night, but then I could feel my hips digging into the ground, so
            that wasn't comfortable either.

            The rolling problem was nothing compared with the atrocious durability of this pad. All
            that worrying about popping this pad was for naught. It lasted exactly four nights before
            the welded seams just slipped apart. No, I didn't tug on the seams hoping to find potato
            chips inside. And no, I don't weigh several tons. I also didn't jump on the pad. But I did
            have an absolutely terrible night trying to sleep on the cold, hard ground. Because of this, I
            refuse to ever take this pad backpacking again. Even at just 12.8 oz (363 g), it's a waste of
            pack weight and space because it doesn't work. Also, at US $10.74 per usable night, this is
            an incredibly overpriced sleeping pad.


            Here's the hole where the welded seams pulled apart.

            I went back to the Big Agnes website to see what I should do about this busted pad. The
            website has a blurb about how every pad comes with a repair kit. That's a lie. This pad
            doesn't have a repair kit. Besides, it looks as thought the seams are loosening around
            other parts of the pad, so I cannot trust that this pad won't come apart again if I did try to
            glue the hole shut.


            The seams are coming apart all around the pad. The hole is on the upper left corner, but
            the seams are also pulling apart across the top and side of the pad as shown in this photo.

            I contacted Big Agnes customer service by email and was told that their lifetime warranty
            covers anything not caused by wear and tear or damage. Certainly four nights of careful
            use should be fine under their warranty. However, I'm very angry at having to mail this pad
            back to Big Agnes on my dime. I had been extremely careful with this pad and the hole
            that developed was entirely Big Agnes' (not my) fault. What a waste of shipping expenses
            and hydrocarbons!

            Two weeks after I sent the pad back to Big Agnes, they mailed me a new one with a note
            that they "haven't seen any other Clearview Pads come back with a defect like this so in
            terms of durability [I] shouldn't have any issues with [my] new pad." I can't say I trust that
            statement.

            SUMMARY
            I would most definitely not recommend this pad. Backpacking with the Big Agnes
            Clearview Air Pad was a HUGE mistake. I spent an absolutely miserable night on the hard
            ground and still had to carry the useless 13.4 oz (380 g) of materials on my back. Big
            Agnes' craftsmanship is deplorable. My Clearview busted along the seams after four nights
            of use. When it did hold air, it didn't fit properly with a sleeping bag it was designed to be
            used with. It's time for Big Agnes to drop the Clearview Air Pad or make some major
            manufacturing and design changes.

            PROS
            None!!!
            CONS
            Doesn't fit well with Big Agnes Elbert sleeping bag (designed to be used together), makes
            me roll off of it
            Fell apart at the seams after four nights of use
            Not worth the money, weight or pack space
            REMARKS
            This concludes my Field Report. My Long-Term Report will be available in November
            2008. Big Agnes and BackpackGearTest.org are providing me with the opportunity to test
            the Clearview Air Pad.
          • S
            Hi Mark, Just a reminder that my Clearview FR needs edits. Message # 48608. Thanks, Sheila
            Message 5 of 15 , Sep 22, 2008
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              Hi Mark,

              Just a reminder that my Clearview FR needs edits. Message # 48608.

              Thanks,

              Sheila

              --- In backpackgeartesters@yahoogroups.com, "S" <geosheila@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Mark,
              >
              > Here's my FR for the Big Agnes Clearview Air Pad.
              >
              > Sheila
              >
              >
              >
              > http://tinyurl.com/3re669
            • Mark Wood
              Sheila, Doesn t sound like you had too much fun with this bag... Sorry to hear it. The edits can be found below in the standard format. I am glad we are
              Message 6 of 15 , Sep 23, 2008
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                Sheila,

                Doesn't sound like you had too much fun with this bag... Sorry to
                hear it.

                The edits can be found below in the standard format.

                I am glad we are willing to report on both the good and bad here at
                BGT. I just want to ensure that you've thought through your review
                (it sounds like you have) and are using facts to back up your
                reasoning for statements such as "Because of this, I refuse to ever
                take this pad backpacking again.".

                I'm not trying to imply that you're being hasty here. I just want to
                make sure that we're attempting to be as objective as possible.

                Good luck with the LTR!

                Mark

                ----------------> Begin Edits


                > Field Report: September 9, 2008
                > FIELD CONDITIONS
                > I have so far used the Big Agnes Clearview Air Pad for a total of
                five nights, including one
                > night at home, one night near a trailhead and three nights on a
                trail. The pad only held air
                > on the first four of these five nights.
                >
                > I would never normally include a night at home in my report, but
                since this product was so
                > short-lived, I'll throw that extra day in here for Big Agnes'
                benefit. That night there was a
                > big wildfire nearby, so I slept downstairs. I used this pad with my
                Big Agnes Elbert sleeping
                > bag on the carpeted floor. The temperature was about 70 F (21 C).
                >
                > I used the Clearview for one night at a walk-in campground and three
                nights of
                > backpacking on California's Lost Coast. I paired the Clearview with
                a Big Agnes Elbert
                > sleeping bag and slept inside a tent. The elevation was near sea
                level and the overnight
                > low temperature was about 50 F (10 C).
                >
                > FIELD RESULTS
                > I thought the Clearview pad fit perfectly with my Elbert sleeping
                bag. Afterall, they were
                > designed for that purpose. When I put them together for my Initial
                Report, I noticed that
                > one channel of the eight air channels making up the Clearview was
                popping up. I just
                > assumed that wouldn't happen when I laid down on the pad overnight.
                Instead, what
                > happened was that one or two of the channels along the side popped
                up, rolling me off
                > the pad. I don't know whether the pad is too wide or the pocket on
                the sleeping bag is too
                > narrow, but they don't fit together well, making it hard to sleep on
                this pad. The thickness
                > of the pad did mean I got some good sleep for the moments when I was
                able to stay on
                > the pad without rolling off. In order to keep the pad from rolling
                me off of it, I tried not
                > inflating it all the way one night, but then I could feel my hips
                digging into the ground, so
                > that wasn't comfortable either.

                Edit> My spell checker things "afterall" is two words.

                > The rolling problem was nothing compared with the atrocious
                durability of this pad. All
                > that worrying about popping this pad was for naught. It lasted
                exactly four nights before
                > the welded seams just slipped apart. No, I didn't tug on the seams
                hoping to find potato
                > chips inside. And no, I don't weigh several tons. I also didn't jump
                on the pad. But I did
                > have an absolutely terrible night trying to sleep on the cold, hard
                ground. Because of this, I
                > refuse to ever take this pad backpacking again. Even at just 12.8 oz
                (363 g), it's a waste of
                > pack weight and space because it doesn't work. Also, at US $10.74
                per usable night, this is
                > an incredibly overpriced sleeping pad.

                Comment> "Even at just 12.8 oz..." be sure we're not projecting here.
                I might add a "...I feel it's a waste of pack weight and space..."
                just to be safe.

                >
                > Here's the hole where the welded seams pulled apart.
                >
                > I went back to the Big Agnes website to see what I should do about
                this busted pad. The
                > website has a blurb about how every pad comes with a repair kit.
                That's a lie. This pad
                > doesn't have a repair kit. Besides, it looks as thought the seams
                are loosening around
                > other parts of the pad, so I cannot trust that this pad won't come
                apart again if I did try to
                > glue the hole shut.
                >
                >
                > The seams are coming apart all around the pad. The hole is on the
                upper left corner, but
                > the seams are also pulling apart across the top and side of the pad
                as shown in this photo.
                >
                > I contacted Big Agnes customer service by email and was told that
                their lifetime warranty
                > covers anything not caused by wear and tear or damage. Certainly
                four nights of careful
                > use should be fine under their warranty. However, I'm very angry at
                having to mail this pad
                > back to Big Agnes on my dime. I had been extremely careful with this
                pad and the hole
                > that developed was entirely Big Agnes' (not my) fault. What a waste
                of shipping expenses
                > and hydrocarbons!
                >
                > Two weeks after I sent the pad back to Big Agnes, they mailed me a
                new one with a note
                > that they "haven't seen any other Clearview Pads come back with a
                defect like this so in
                > terms of durability [I] shouldn't have any issues with [my] new
                pad." I can't say I trust that
                > statement.
                >
                > SUMMARY
                > I would most definitely not recommend this pad. Backpacking with the
                Big Agnes
                > Clearview Air Pad was a HUGE mistake. I spent an absolutely
                miserable night on the hard
                > ground and still had to carry the useless 13.4 oz (380 g) of
                materials on my back. Big
                > Agnes' craftsmanship is deplorable. My Clearview busted along the
                seams after four nights
                > of use. When it did hold air, it didn't fit properly with a sleeping
                bag it was designed to be
                > used with. It's time for Big Agnes to drop the Clearview Air Pad or
                make some major
                > manufacturing and design changes.
                >
                > PROS
                > None!!!
                > CONS
                > Doesn't fit well with Big Agnes Elbert sleeping bag (designed to be
                used together), makes
                > me roll off of it
                > Fell apart at the seams after four nights of use
                > Not worth the money, weight or pack space
                > REMARKS
                > This concludes my Field Report. My Long-Term Report will be
                available in November
                > 2008. Big Agnes and BackpackGearTest.org are providing me with the
                opportunity to test
                > the Clearview Air Pad.
                >
              • S
                Thanks for your edits, Mark. Yeah, this is definitely the worst backpacking item I ve ever tested. Anyway, the report is uploaded and I will now delete the
                Message 7 of 15 , Sep 23, 2008
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                  Thanks for your edits, Mark. Yeah, this is definitely the worst backpacking item I've ever
                  tested. Anyway, the report is uploaded and I will now delete the test report. Thank you for
                  your help.

                  Sheila



                  --- In backpackgeartesters@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Wood" <mwood_bgt@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Sheila,
                  >
                  > Doesn't sound like you had too much fun with this bag... Sorry to
                  > hear it.
                  >
                  > The edits can be found below in the standard format.
                  >
                  > I am glad we are willing to report on both the good and bad here at
                  > BGT. I just want to ensure that you've thought through your review
                  > (it sounds like you have) and are using facts to back up your
                  > reasoning for statements such as "Because of this, I refuse to ever
                  > take this pad backpacking again.".
                  >
                  > I'm not trying to imply that you're being hasty here. I just want to
                  > make sure that we're attempting to be as objective as possible.
                  >
                  > Good luck with the LTR!
                  >
                  > Mark
                • pamwyant
                  Sheila, Sorry to read that you had such problems with the Clearview. As Mark pointed out, we report on both good and bad, but I have some real concerns about
                  Message 8 of 15 , Sep 23, 2008
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                    Sheila,

                    Sorry to read that you had such problems with the Clearview. As Mark
                    pointed out, we report on both good and bad, but I have some real
                    concerns about the way you wrote a couple of things in particular.

                    > > I went back to the Big Agnes website to see what I should do about
                    > this busted pad. The
                    > > website has a blurb about how every pad comes with a repair kit.
                    > That's a lie.

                    I'm not sure where you saw that every pad comes with a repair kit,
                    but the Sleep Pad Spec Chart on this page states that the Clearview
                    only comes with a stuff sack. No repair kit mentioned.

                    http://www.bigagnes.com/pad_chart.php

                    In view of this, my suggestion is to avoid saying Big Agnes lied.



                    > > Two weeks after I sent the pad back to Big Agnes, they mailed me a
                    > new one with a note
                    > > that they "haven't seen any other Clearview Pads come back with a
                    > defect like this so in
                    > > terms of durability [I] shouldn't have any issues with [my] new
                    > pad." I can't say I trust that
                    > > statement.


                    Just wondering if you have reason not to trust that statement. I've
                    read a few reviews of the Clearview, and haven't heard of what you
                    experienced happening. Here is one:

                    http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-
                    bin/backpackinglight/big_agnes_clearview_air_pad_review.html

                    They did experience problems in other areas if you read the review,
                    but not what happened to you. Our other testers didn't seem to have
                    the same type of issues.

                    There is another problem that has been mentioned here in the valve
                    body area, but again not what you experienced.

                    http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-
                    bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=15867

                    I think it's pretty serious to say "I can't say I trust that
                    statement" without evidence to support why you don't trust it.

                    Given the experience of our other testers, and the pretty thorough
                    test by BackpackingLight (done by folks that are testers here too), I
                    would hope that you could give Big Agnes the benefit of the doubt
                    that perhaps yours was a random bad pad in regards to the type of
                    failure you experienced until further testing would prove otherwise.

                    While I know a defective item can be a real bummer, I think our
                    objectivity and thorough testing is what sets us apart from every
                    other site. So many are filled with reviews from folks that just use
                    an item once or twice and either love it or hate it. Defective
                    products and dealing with replacing them can be a pain, but reporting
                    on what happens next is an important part of our 'jobs' here, in my
                    opinion, and in so many cases, we've had the manufacturer go back and
                    make design changes to improve the product based on our input as
                    testers, which I think says a lot for our program.

                    Pam
                  • Leesa J
                    Pam, Thanks for your thoughts. Chuck is the Moderator on this and will address it if needed. It would be better if the discussion take place between tester,
                    Message 9 of 15 , Sep 23, 2008
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                      Pam,

                      Thanks for your thoughts. Chuck is the Moderator on this and will address
                      it if needed. It would be better if the discussion take place between
                      tester, monitor and moderator, instead of the list as a whole.

                      Thanks,
                      Leesa

                      On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 6:23 PM, pamwyant <pamwyant@...> wrote:

                      > Sheila,
                      >
                      > Sorry to read that you had such problems with the Clearview. As Mark
                      > pointed out, we report on both good and bad, but I have some real
                      > concerns about the way you wrote a couple of things in particular.
                      >
                      > > > I went back to the Big Agnes website to see what I should do about
                      > > this busted pad. The
                      > > > website has a blurb about how every pad comes with a repair kit.
                      > > That's a lie.
                      >
                      > I'm not sure where you saw that every pad comes with a repair kit,
                      > but the Sleep Pad Spec Chart on this page states that the Clearview
                      > only comes with a stuff sack. No repair kit mentioned.
                      >
                      > http://www.bigagnes.com/pad_chart.php
                      >
                      > In view of this, my suggestion is to avoid saying Big Agnes lied.
                      >
                      > > > Two weeks after I sent the pad back to Big Agnes, they mailed me a
                      > > new one with a note
                      > > > that they "haven't seen any other Clearview Pads come back with a
                      > > defect like this so in
                      > > > terms of durability [I] shouldn't have any issues with [my] new
                      > > pad." I can't say I trust that
                      > > > statement.
                      >
                      > Just wondering if you have reason not to trust that statement. I've
                      > read a few reviews of the Clearview, and haven't heard of what you
                      > experienced happening. Here is one:
                      >
                      > http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-
                      > bin/backpackinglight/big_agnes_clearview_air_pad_review.html
                      >
                      > They did experience problems in other areas if you read the review,
                      > but not what happened to you. Our other testers didn't seem to have
                      > the same type of issues.
                      >
                      > There is another problem that has been mentioned here in the valve
                      > body area, but again not what you experienced.
                      >
                      > http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-
                      > bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=15867
                      >
                      > I think it's pretty serious to say "I can't say I trust that
                      > statement" without evidence to support why you don't trust it.
                      >
                      > Given the experience of our other testers, and the pretty thorough
                      > test by BackpackingLight (done by folks that are testers here too), I
                      > would hope that you could give Big Agnes the benefit of the doubt
                      > that perhaps yours was a random bad pad in regards to the type of
                      > failure you experienced until further testing would prove otherwise.
                      >
                      > While I know a defective item can be a real bummer, I think our
                      > objectivity and thorough testing is what sets us apart from every
                      > other site. So many are filled with reviews from folks that just use
                      > an item once or twice and either love it or hate it. Defective
                      > products and dealing with replacing them can be a pain, but reporting
                      > on what happens next is an important part of our 'jobs' here, in my
                      > opinion, and in so many cases, we've had the manufacturer go back and
                      > make design changes to improve the product based on our input as
                      > testers, which I think says a lot for our program.
                      >
                      > Pam
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • S
                      ... It is here: http://www.bigagnes.com/service.php ... This is based on my personal experiences and I prefer not to read others reviews while I am testing.
                      Message 10 of 15 , Sep 23, 2008
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                        > I'm not sure where you saw that every pad comes with a repair kit,
                        > but the Sleep Pad Spec Chart on this page states that the Clearview
                        > only comes with a stuff sack. No repair kit mentioned.
                        >
                        > http://www.bigagnes.com/pad_chart.php
                        >
                        > In view of this, my suggestion is to avoid saying Big Agnes lied.

                        It is here:
                        http://www.bigagnes.com/service.php



                        > Just wondering if you have reason not to trust that statement. I've
                        > read a few reviews of the Clearview, and haven't heard of what you
                        > experienced happening. Here is one:
                        >
                        > http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-
                        > bin/backpackinglight/big_agnes_clearview_air_pad_review.html

                        This is based on my personal experiences and I prefer not to read others' reviews while I
                        am testing. The reason I don't trust it is because I only used the pad on one trip and,
                        although it worked the first few nights, it then broke. Additionally, there were multiple
                        places along the seams that were coming apart.



                        > I think it's pretty serious to say "I can't say I trust that
                        > statement" without evidence to support why you don't trust it.

                        I agree. I included photos of how and where the pad broke.



                        > Given the experience of our other testers, and the pretty thorough
                        > test by BackpackingLight (done by folks that are testers here too), I
                        > would hope that you could give Big Agnes the benefit of the doubt
                        > that perhaps yours was a random bad pad in regards to the type of
                        > failure you experienced until further testing would prove otherwise.

                        I would like to have written a more positive review, but I had a bad experience with this
                        pad. They did send me a new pad for the Long-Term testing period.



                        > While I know a defective item can be a real bummer, I think our
                        > objectivity and thorough testing is what sets us apart from every
                        > other site. So many are filled with reviews from folks that just use
                        > an item once or twice and either love it or hate it. Defective
                        > products and dealing with replacing them can be a pain, but reporting
                        > on what happens next is an important part of our 'jobs' here, in my
                        > opinion, and in so many cases, we've had the manufacturer go back and
                        > make design changes to improve the product based on our input as
                        > testers, which I think says a lot for our program.

                        I have so far used the pad 5 nights (which, by the way, is BGTs overall minimum, though
                        I'll of course be trying it again in the long-term testing period). Had I used this pad just a
                        night or two, I might have mistakenly written a positive review. I certainly hope they do go
                        and make changes to the product. If I had tested, say, waterproof shoes that didn't hold
                        water, then I could comment on how well they worked in dry situations. However, there is
                        only one use for a sleeping pad and I absolutely stick by the fact that it must hold air if it
                        is to be of any use to me!

                        Sheila
                      • edwardripleyduggan
                        Sheila, There is absolutely nothing wrong with a negative review--indeed I have written my fair share of them. Still, I have some very serious issues with
                        Message 11 of 15 , Sep 23, 2008
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                          Sheila,

                          There is absolutely nothing wrong with a negative review--indeed I
                          have written my fair share of them. Still, I have some very serious
                          issues with yours.

                          First, your Field Review makes judgments best reserved for the Long
                          Term review. Perhaps you simply received a defective unit. Such things
                          happen, even with the best manufacturers. Before using such very
                          strong language to condemn the pad, please try the replacement in the
                          field first, and see if you experience the same problems.

                          Second, negative reviews need to be neutral and analytical in tone,
                          and heavily fact-based. Your review is about as far from neutral as
                          anything I have ever read on BGT. Phrases and sentences such as

                          "atrocious durability"

                          "That's a lie."

                          "I can't say I trust that statement."

                          are subjective comments have ABSOLUTELY NO PLACE IN A BGT REPORT. Not
                          under any circumstances, at any time.

                          I sympathize that you had a bad time sleeping on uncomfortable
                          terrain. Unfortunately, equipment failures happen when you are testing
                          gear. I remember when Colleen (no longer with BGT, I think) hiked in a
                          pair of sandals that rendered her feet into something resembling raw
                          hamburger. She wrote an admirably balanced report, without labeling
                          the manufacturer a liar.

                          Your report is entirely unacceptable in its present form. Please
                          rewrite immediately it in a simple fact-based, non-editorializing
                          fashion, and continue with the test. Alternatively, contact the test
                          moderator, and make arrangements to forward the replacement pad you
                          were sent (and, presumably, the accompanying sleeping bag) to another
                          tester. Thank you.

                          Edward Ripley-Duggan

                          Senior Edit Moderator




                          --- In backpackgeartesters@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Wood"
                          <mwood_bgt@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Sheila,
                          >
                          > Doesn't sound like you had too much fun with this bag... Sorry to
                          > hear it.
                          >
                          > The edits can be found below in the standard format.
                          >
                          > I am glad we are willing to report on both the good and bad here at
                          > BGT. I just want to ensure that you've thought through your review
                          > (it sounds like you have) and are using facts to back up your
                          > reasoning for statements such as "Because of this, I refuse to ever
                          > take this pad backpacking again.".
                          >
                          > I'm not trying to imply that you're being hasty here. I just want to
                          > make sure that we're attempting to be as objective as possible.
                          >
                          > Good luck with the LTR!
                          >
                          > Mark
                          >
                          > ----------------> Begin Edits
                          >
                          >
                          > > Field Report: September 9, 2008
                          > > FIELD CONDITIONS
                          > > I have so far used the Big Agnes Clearview Air Pad for a total of
                          > five nights, including one
                          > > night at home, one night near a trailhead and three nights on a
                          > trail. The pad only held air
                          > > on the first four of these five nights.
                          > >
                          > > I would never normally include a night at home in my report, but
                          > since this product was so
                          > > short-lived, I'll throw that extra day in here for Big Agnes'
                          > benefit. That night there was a
                          > > big wildfire nearby, so I slept downstairs. I used this pad with my
                          > Big Agnes Elbert sleeping
                          > > bag on the carpeted floor. The temperature was about 70 F (21 C).
                          > >
                          > > I used the Clearview for one night at a walk-in campground and three
                          > nights of
                          > > backpacking on California's Lost Coast. I paired the Clearview with
                          > a Big Agnes Elbert
                          > > sleeping bag and slept inside a tent. The elevation was near sea
                          > level and the overnight
                          > > low temperature was about 50 F (10 C).
                          > >
                          > > FIELD RESULTS
                          > > I thought the Clearview pad fit perfectly with my Elbert sleeping
                          > bag. Afterall, they were
                          > > designed for that purpose. When I put them together for my Initial
                          > Report, I noticed that
                          > > one channel of the eight air channels making up the Clearview was
                          > popping up. I just
                          > > assumed that wouldn't happen when I laid down on the pad overnight.
                          > Instead, what
                          > > happened was that one or two of the channels along the side popped
                          > up, rolling me off
                          > > the pad. I don't know whether the pad is too wide or the pocket on
                          > the sleeping bag is too
                          > > narrow, but they don't fit together well, making it hard to sleep on
                          > this pad. The thickness
                          > > of the pad did mean I got some good sleep for the moments when I was
                          > able to stay on
                          > > the pad without rolling off. In order to keep the pad from rolling
                          > me off of it, I tried not
                          > > inflating it all the way one night, but then I could feel my hips
                          > digging into the ground, so
                          > > that wasn't comfortable either.
                          >
                          > Edit> My spell checker things "afterall" is two words.
                          >
                          > > The rolling problem was nothing compared with the atrocious
                          > durability of this pad. All
                          > > that worrying about popping this pad was for naught. It lasted
                          > exactly four nights before
                          > > the welded seams just slipped apart. No, I didn't tug on the seams
                          > hoping to find potato
                          > > chips inside. And no, I don't weigh several tons. I also didn't jump
                          > on the pad. But I did
                          > > have an absolutely terrible night trying to sleep on the cold, hard
                          > ground. Because of this, I
                          > > refuse to ever take this pad backpacking again. Even at just 12.8 oz
                          > (363 g), it's a waste of
                          > > pack weight and space because it doesn't work. Also, at US $10.74
                          > per usable night, this is
                          > > an incredibly overpriced sleeping pad.
                          >
                          > Comment> "Even at just 12.8 oz..." be sure we're not projecting here.
                          > I might add a "...I feel it's a waste of pack weight and space..."
                          > just to be safe.
                          >
                          > >
                          > > Here's the hole where the welded seams pulled apart.
                          > >
                          > > I went back to the Big Agnes website to see what I should do about
                          > this busted pad. The
                          > > website has a blurb about how every pad comes with a repair kit.
                          > That's a lie. This pad
                          > > doesn't have a repair kit. Besides, it looks as thought the seams
                          > are loosening around
                          > > other parts of the pad, so I cannot trust that this pad won't come
                          > apart again if I did try to
                          > > glue the hole shut.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > The seams are coming apart all around the pad. The hole is on the
                          > upper left corner, but
                          > > the seams are also pulling apart across the top and side of the pad
                          > as shown in this photo.
                          > >
                          > > I contacted Big Agnes customer service by email and was told that
                          > their lifetime warranty
                          > > covers anything not caused by wear and tear or damage. Certainly
                          > four nights of careful
                          > > use should be fine under their warranty. However, I'm very angry at
                          > having to mail this pad
                          > > back to Big Agnes on my dime. I had been extremely careful with this
                          > pad and the hole
                          > > that developed was entirely Big Agnes' (not my) fault. What a waste
                          > of shipping expenses
                          > > and hydrocarbons!
                          > >
                          > > Two weeks after I sent the pad back to Big Agnes, they mailed me a
                          > new one with a note
                          > > that they "haven't seen any other Clearview Pads come back with a
                          > defect like this so in
                          > > terms of durability [I] shouldn't have any issues with [my] new
                          > pad." I can't say I trust that
                          > > statement.
                          > >
                          > > SUMMARY
                          > > I would most definitely not recommend this pad. Backpacking with the
                          > Big Agnes
                          > > Clearview Air Pad was a HUGE mistake. I spent an absolutely
                          > miserable night on the hard
                          > > ground and still had to carry the useless 13.4 oz (380 g) of
                          > materials on my back. Big
                          > > Agnes' craftsmanship is deplorable. My Clearview busted along the
                          > seams after four nights
                          > > of use. When it did hold air, it didn't fit properly with a sleeping
                          > bag it was designed to be
                          > > used with. It's time for Big Agnes to drop the Clearview Air Pad or
                          > make some major
                          > > manufacturing and design changes.
                          > >
                          > > PROS
                          > > None!!!
                          > > CONS
                          > > Doesn't fit well with Big Agnes Elbert sleeping bag (designed to be
                          > used together), makes
                          > > me roll off of it
                          > > Fell apart at the seams after four nights of use
                          > > Not worth the money, weight or pack space
                          > > REMARKS
                          > > This concludes my Field Report. My Long-Term Report will be
                          > available in November
                          > > 2008. Big Agnes and BackpackGearTest.org are providing me with the
                          > opportunity to test
                          > > the Clearview Air Pad.
                          > >
                          >
                        • S
                          Edward, I have addressed your concerns and re-uploaded the report. Like I stated, I will use the replacement in the long-term testing period. However, I cannot
                          Message 12 of 15 , Sep 23, 2008
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                            Edward,

                            I have addressed your concerns and re-uploaded the report. Like I stated, I will use the
                            replacement in the long-term testing period. However, I cannot use it in the field for the
                            FR.

                            Sheila

                            --- In backpackgeartesters@yahoogroups.com, "edwardripleyduggan" <erd@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Sheila,
                            >
                            > There is absolutely nothing wrong with a negative review--indeed I
                            > have written my fair share of them. Still, I have some very serious
                            > issues with yours.
                            >
                            > First, your Field Review makes judgments best reserved for the Long
                            > Term review. Perhaps you simply received a defective unit. Such things
                            > happen, even with the best manufacturers. Before using such very
                            > strong language to condemn the pad, please try the replacement in the
                            > field first, and see if you experience the same problems.
                            >
                            > Second, negative reviews need to be neutral and analytical in tone,
                            > and heavily fact-based. Your review is about as far from neutral as
                            > anything I have ever read on BGT. Phrases and sentences such as
                            >
                            > "atrocious durability"
                            >
                            > "That's a lie."
                            >
                            > "I can't say I trust that statement."
                            >
                            > are subjective comments have ABSOLUTELY NO PLACE IN A BGT REPORT. Not
                            > under any circumstances, at any time.
                            >
                            > I sympathize that you had a bad time sleeping on uncomfortable
                            > terrain. Unfortunately, equipment failures happen when you are testing
                            > gear. I remember when Colleen (no longer with BGT, I think) hiked in a
                            > pair of sandals that rendered her feet into something resembling raw
                            > hamburger. She wrote an admirably balanced report, without labeling
                            > the manufacturer a liar.
                            >
                            > Your report is entirely unacceptable in its present form. Please
                            > rewrite immediately it in a simple fact-based, non-editorializing
                            > fashion, and continue with the test. Alternatively, contact the test
                            > moderator, and make arrangements to forward the replacement pad you
                            > were sent (and, presumably, the accompanying sleeping bag) to another
                            > tester. Thank you.
                            >
                            > Edward Ripley-Duggan
                            >
                            > Senior Edit Moderator
                          • edwardripleyduggan
                            [Posted personally and to list] Sheila, I m sorry, but you are still not quite there with your field report. It has been extensively discussed by the mods, and
                            Message 13 of 15 , Sep 26, 2008
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                              [Posted personally and to list]

                              Sheila,

                              I'm sorry, but you are still not quite there with your field report.
                              It has been extensively discussed by the mods, and they are in full
                              agreement with me that your comments are premature, in that they
                              effectively anticipate the long-term results.

                              The two lines that are causing most concern are: "I would most
                              definitely not recommend this pad" and "I suggest it's time for Big
                              Agnes to drop the Clearview Air Pad or make some major manufacturing
                              and design changes."

                              Neither of these lines is an issue in and of itself, but these are
                              conclusions for the LTR, not the FR, a point I made in my initial
                              posting to you on this matter. Yes, this pad failed, and if you have a
                              similar issue with the replacement (tested perhaps somewhere where
                              failure is less of an issue than the Lost Coast) you will be entirely
                              justified in making these statements in the Long Term report.

                              The grumble about the shipping, while I agree it's a pain you had to
                              pay, seems a bit picayune too, to be frank, but the quarrel that I
                              (and the mods) have with your language at this point is primarily
                              summarized in my second paragraph above. Please make the changes, and
                              continue with the LTR testing.

                              Again, should you feel so strongly about the matter that you would
                              prefer not to go with any further testing, contact Chuck and we will
                              arrange for the test to be transferred.

                              Thanks,

                              Edward

                              Senior edit moderator
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