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RE: [B5CCG] Limited Strike and Multiple Factions

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  • Manuel Tuthill
    I does appear to play out this way, can t see why it wouldn t have come up before, don t think I ve ever played it like this before but given the rise of
    Message 1 of 12 , May 4, 2010
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      I does appear to play out this way, can't see why it wouldn't have come up
      before, don't think I've ever played it like this before but given the rise
      of alternates for Drakh etc could become fairly useful.



      Manuel

      _____

      From: b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of etherialsproing
      Sent: 29 April 2010 22:24
      To: b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [B5CCG] Limited Strike and Multiple Factions





      AFAICT, Limited Strike was never Errated.

      Limited Strike
      Military Conflict
      Target a player with whom you have a tension of 3 or higher. No other player
      may participate in the conflict. Tensions between the two races increase by
      1. Babylon 5 loses 1 influence. If uncontested, your target loses 2
      influence. Gain +1 influence if you win the conflict by 10 or more.

      According to p. 58 of the Psi Corps Rulebook, "Unless otherwise specified,
      if a race is not in Civil War, all military conflicts which target a player
      of that race which can cause an influence loss to the target cause the loss
      to each faction of the target race."

      Does this mean that if I target Sheridan's faction with Limited Strike, and
      Sheridan has no fleets (and therefore fails to contest), and Bester has
      fleets (but is not the target and therefore cannot contest), and nobody
      plays any Levels or other wackiness, they both lose influence?

      --
      - Gregory Stuart Pettigrew





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • DonH
      So if we are going to be rules sticklers, then you don t have tensions between players but between races. Since there is no tension, the card can never be
      Message 2 of 12 , May 6, 2010
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        So if we are going to be rules sticklers, then you don't have tensions between players but between races. Since there is no tension, the card can never be used.

        Now if it read "Target a race" then any faction of that race is free to participate. Though there are other ways to add opposition to a conflict, right Capt. Sinclair?

        So I would suggest that you either correct the card or eliminate it. He who lives by rules lawyering, dies by rules lawyering.

        dch

        --- In b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com, "Manuel Tuthill" <manuel@...> wrote:
        >
        > I does appear to play out this way, can't see why it wouldn't have come up
        > before, don't think I've ever played it like this before but given the rise
        > of alternates for Drakh etc could become fairly useful.
        >
        >
        >
        > Manuel
        >
        > _____
        >
        > From: b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        > Of etherialsproing
        > Sent: 29 April 2010 22:24
        > To: b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [B5CCG] Limited Strike and Multiple Factions
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > AFAICT, Limited Strike was never Errated.
        >
        > Limited Strike
        > Military Conflict
        > Target a player with whom you have a tension of 3 or higher. No other player
        > may participate in the conflict. Tensions between the two races increase by
        > 1. Babylon 5 loses 1 influence. If uncontested, your target loses 2
        > influence. Gain +1 influence if you win the conflict by 10 or more.
        >
        > According to p. 58 of the Psi Corps Rulebook, "Unless otherwise specified,
        > if a race is not in Civil War, all military conflicts which target a player
        > of that race which can cause an influence loss to the target cause the loss
        > to each faction of the target race."
        >
        > Does this mean that if I target Sheridan's faction with Limited Strike, and
        > Sheridan has no fleets (and therefore fails to contest), and Bester has
        > fleets (but is not the target and therefore cannot contest), and nobody
        > plays any Levels or other wackiness, they both lose influence?
        >
        > --
        > - Gregory Stuart Pettigrew
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • William Lydick
        To be honest, this situation will never occur in one of my tournaments, given that I never allow more than one player of a race at a given table. ... [Non-text
        Message 3 of 12 , May 7, 2010
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          To be honest, this situation will never occur in one of my tournaments,
          given that I never allow more than one player of a race at a given table.

          On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 6:07 PM, DonH <dcholtx@...> wrote:

          >
          >
          > So if we are going to be rules sticklers, then you don't have tensions
          > between players but between races. Since there is no tension, the card can
          > never be used.
          >
          > Now if it read "Target a race" then any faction of that race is free to
          > participate. Though there are other ways to add opposition to a conflict,
          > right Capt. Sinclair?
          >
          > So I would suggest that you either correct the card or eliminate it. He who
          > lives by rules lawyering, dies by rules lawyering.
          >
          >
          > dch
          >
          > --- In b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com <b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Manuel
          > Tuthill" <manuel@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > I does appear to play out this way, can't see why it wouldn't have come
          > up
          > > before, don't think I've ever played it like this before but given the
          > rise
          > > of alternates for Drakh etc could become fairly useful.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Manuel
          > >
          > > _____
          > >
          > > From: b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com <b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
          > b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com <b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
          > > Of etherialsproing
          > > Sent: 29 April 2010 22:24
          > > To: b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com <b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > Subject: [B5CCG] Limited Strike and Multiple Factions
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > AFAICT, Limited Strike was never Errated.
          > >
          > > Limited Strike
          > > Military Conflict
          > > Target a player with whom you have a tension of 3 or higher. No other
          > player
          > > may participate in the conflict. Tensions between the two races increase
          > by
          > > 1. Babylon 5 loses 1 influence. If uncontested, your target loses 2
          > > influence. Gain +1 influence if you win the conflict by 10 or more.
          > >
          > > According to p. 58 of the Psi Corps Rulebook, "Unless otherwise
          > specified,
          > > if a race is not in Civil War, all military conflicts which target a
          > player
          > > of that race which can cause an influence loss to the target cause the
          > loss
          > > to each faction of the target race."
          > >
          > > Does this mean that if I target Sheridan's faction with Limited Strike,
          > and
          > > Sheridan has no fleets (and therefore fails to contest), and Bester has
          > > fleets (but is not the target and therefore cannot contest), and nobody
          > > plays any Levels or other wackiness, they both lose influence?
          > >
          > > --
          > > - Gregory Stuart Pettigrew
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Mike DOttavio
          You do have tension between different factions of the same race, last time I checked, so the rules work just fine.  It does appear, however, that it s a bad
          Message 4 of 12 , May 7, 2010
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            You do have tension between different factions of the same race, last time I checked, so the rules work just fine.  It does appear, however, that it's a bad idea to hit a player of the same faction as you with things like Limited Strike.  I suppose you could always contest it with your own fleets.

            --- On Fri, 5/7/10, William Lydick <wlydick@...> wrote:

            From: William Lydick <wlydick@...>
            Subject: Re: [B5CCG] Limited Strike and Multiple Factions
            To: b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 6:36 AM

            To be honest, this situation will never occur in one of my tournaments,
            given that I never allow more than one player of a race at a given table.

            On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 6:07 PM, DonH <dcholtx@...> wrote:

            >
            >
            > So if we are going to be rules sticklers, then you don't have tensions
            > between players but between races. Since there is no tension, the card can
            > never be used.
            >
            > Now if it read "Target a race" then any faction of that race is free to
            > participate. Though there are other ways to add opposition to a conflict,
            > right Capt. Sinclair?
            >
            > So I would suggest that you either correct the card or eliminate it. He who
            > lives by rules lawyering, dies by rules lawyering.
            >
            >
            > dch
            >
            > --- In b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com <b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Manuel
            > Tuthill" <manuel@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > I does appear to play out this way, can't see why it wouldn't have come
            > up
            > > before, don't think I've ever played it like this before but given the
            > rise
            > > of alternates for Drakh etc could become fairly useful.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Manuel
            > >
            > > _____
            > >
            > > From: b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com <b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
            > b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com <b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
            > > Of etherialsproing
            > > Sent: 29 April 2010 22:24
            > > To: b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com <b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com>
            > > Subject: [B5CCG] Limited Strike and Multiple Factions
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > AFAICT, Limited Strike was never Errated.
            > >
            > > Limited Strike
            > > Military Conflict
            > > Target a player with whom you have a tension of 3 or higher. No other
            > player
            > > may participate in the conflict. Tensions between the two races increase
            > by
            > > 1. Babylon 5 loses 1 influence. If uncontested, your target loses 2
            > > influence. Gain +1 influence if you win the conflict by 10 or more.
            > >
            > > According to p. 58 of the Psi Corps Rulebook, "Unless otherwise
            > specified,
            > > if a race is not in Civil War, all military conflicts which target a
            > player
            > > of that race which can cause an influence loss to the target cause the
            > loss
            > > to each faction of the target race."
            > >
            > > Does this mean that if I target Sheridan's faction with Limited Strike,
            > and
            > > Sheridan has no fleets (and therefore fails to contest), and Bester has
            > > fleets (but is not the target and therefore cannot contest), and nobody
            > > plays any Levels or other wackiness, they both lose influence?
            > >
            > > --
            > > - Gregory Stuart Pettigrew
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >

            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            ------------------------------------

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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • David Conner
            There is a certain logic to it, I suppose - e.g., Sheridan s launching a Limited Strike attack on Clark s forces for big-picture reasons of his own. But
            Message 5 of 12 , May 7, 2010
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              There is a certain logic to it, I suppose - e.g., Sheridan's launching a
              "Limited Strike" attack on Clark's forces for big-picture reasons of his
              own. But things are still short of Civil War. For whatever reason, Clark
              can't mount any opposition at all, and Sheridan's forces can obviously run
              wild with no opposition in the raid.

              Which is obviously embarrassing to Clark's administration, but hurts
              Sheridan too. Message to the "man in the street" either on Earth or on
              Babylon 5: "Earthforce can't protect you." The man in the street perhaps
              isn't even aware of the geopolitical nuances involved, he just sees
              Earthforce helpless to react to an obvious incursion.


              On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 8:55 AM, Mike DOttavio <ssjthrakath@...> wrote:

              >
              >
              > You do have tension between different factions of the same race, last time
              > I checked, so the rules work just fine. It does appear, however, that it's
              > a bad idea to hit a player of the same faction as you with things like
              > Limited Strike. I suppose you could always contest it with your own fleets.
              >
              > --- On Fri, 5/7/10, William Lydick <wlydick@...<wlydick%40gmail.com>>
              > wrote:
              >
              > From: William Lydick <wlydick@... <wlydick%40gmail.com>>
              > Subject: Re: [B5CCG] Limited Strike and Multiple Factions
              > To: b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com <b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com>
              > Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 6:36 AM
              >
              >
              > To be honest, this situation will never occur in one of my tournaments,
              > given that I never allow more than one player of a race at a given table.
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • DonH
              I disagree. The wording is such that the card can never be played. You must have a tension with the player as he is the target. Since you never have tension
              Message 6 of 12 , May 7, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                I disagree. The wording is such that the card can never be played. You must have a tension with the player as he is the target. Since you never have tension with a player, as tension is defined as between factions, not players. Therefore the card must be rewritten as targeting a faction that has a tension with your faction or thrown out. All you need to do is decide before you play which it will be.

                --- In b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com, Mike DOttavio <ssjthrakath@...> wrote:
                >
                > You do have tension between different factions of the same race, last time I checked, so the rules work just fine. It does appear, however, that it's a bad idea to hit a player of the same faction as you with things like Limited Strike. I suppose you could always contest it with your own fleets.
                >
                > --- On Fri, 5/7/10, William Lydick <wlydick@...> wrote:
                >
                > From: William Lydick <wlydick@...>
                > Subject: Re: [B5CCG] Limited Strike and Multiple Factions
                > To: b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 6:36 AM
                >
                > To be honest, this situation will never occur in one of my tournaments,
                > given that I never allow more than one player of a race at a given table.
                >
                > On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 6:07 PM, DonH <dcholtx@...> wrote:
                >
                > >
                > >
                > > So if we are going to be rules sticklers, then you don't have tensions
                > > between players but between races. Since there is no tension, the card can
                > > never be used.
                > >
                > > Now if it read "Target a race" then any faction of that race is free to
                > > participate. Though there are other ways to add opposition to a conflict,
                > > right Capt. Sinclair?
                > >
                > > So I would suggest that you either correct the card or eliminate it. He who
                > > lives by rules lawyering, dies by rules lawyering.
                > >
                > >
                > > dch
                > >
                > > --- In b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com <b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Manuel
                > > Tuthill" <manuel@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > I does appear to play out this way, can't see why it wouldn't have come
                > > up
                > > > before, don't think I've ever played it like this before but given the
                > > rise
                > > > of alternates for Drakh etc could become fairly useful.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Manuel
                > > >
                > > > _____
                > > >
                > > > From: b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com <b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                > > b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com <b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
                > > > Of etherialsproing
                > > > Sent: 29 April 2010 22:24
                > > > To: b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com <b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > > Subject: [B5CCG] Limited Strike and Multiple Factions
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > AFAICT, Limited Strike was never Errated.
                > > >
                > > > Limited Strike
                > > > Military Conflict
                > > > Target a player with whom you have a tension of 3 or higher. No other
                > > player
                > > > may participate in the conflict. Tensions between the two races increase
                > > by
                > > > 1. Babylon 5 loses 1 influence. If uncontested, your target loses 2
                > > > influence. Gain +1 influence if you win the conflict by 10 or more.
                > > >
                > > > According to p. 58 of the Psi Corps Rulebook, "Unless otherwise
                > > specified,
                > > > if a race is not in Civil War, all military conflicts which target a
                > > player
                > > > of that race which can cause an influence loss to the target cause the
                > > loss
                > > > to each faction of the target race."
                > > >
                > > > Does this mean that if I target Sheridan's faction with Limited Strike,
                > > and
                > > > Sheridan has no fleets (and therefore fails to contest), and Bester has
                > > > fleets (but is not the target and therefore cannot contest), and nobody
                > > > plays any Levels or other wackiness, they both lose influence?
                > > >
                > > > --
                > > > - Gregory Stuart Pettigrew
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Babylon 5 CCG Community E-list.
                > Keep it fun, keep it friendly, enjoy.
                > If you have problems with the list contact me at jaxb5ranger@...
                >
                > Also, check out www.epsilonhex.com for more information about the game!
                >
                > To unsubscribe email:
                > b5ccglist-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Manuel Tuthill
                Perhaps one of the rules guru s can chime in, if not I ll take a really good look at the latest rules/errata/rulings and try and issue a ruling (for anyone who
                Message 7 of 12 , May 10, 2010
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                  Perhaps one of the rules guru's can chime in, if not I'll take a really good
                  look at the latest rules/errata/rulings and try and issue a ruling (for
                  anyone who wants to listen to it)



                  Manuel

                  _____

                  From: b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                  Of DonH
                  Sent: 07 May 2010 15:17
                  To: b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [B5CCG] Limited Strike and Multiple Factions





                  I disagree. The wording is such that the card can never be played. You must
                  have a tension with the player as he is the target. Since you never have
                  tension with a player, as tension is defined as between factions, not
                  players. Therefore the card must be rewritten as targeting a faction that
                  has a tension with your faction or thrown out. All you need to do is decide
                  before you play which it will be.

                  --- In b5ccglist@yahoogrou <mailto:b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com, Mike
                  DOttavio <ssjthrakath@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > You do have tension between different factions of the same race, last time
                  I checked, so the rules work just fine. It does appear, however, that it's a
                  bad idea to hit a player of the same faction as you with things like Limited
                  Strike. I suppose you could always contest it with your own fleets.
                  >
                  > --- On Fri, 5/7/10, William Lydick <wlydick@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > From: William Lydick <wlydick@...>
                  > Subject: Re: [B5CCG] Limited Strike and Multiple Factions
                  > To: b5ccglist@yahoogrou <mailto:b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                  > Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 6:36 AM
                  >
                  > To be honest, this situation will never occur in one of my tournaments,
                  > given that I never allow more than one player of a race at a given table.
                  >
                  > On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 6:07 PM, DonH <dcholtx@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > So if we are going to be rules sticklers, then you don't have tensions
                  > > between players but between races. Since there is no tension, the card
                  can
                  > > never be used.
                  > >
                  > > Now if it read "Target a race" then any faction of that race is free to
                  > > participate. Though there are other ways to add opposition to a
                  conflict,
                  > > right Capt. Sinclair?
                  > >
                  > > So I would suggest that you either correct the card or eliminate it. He
                  who
                  > > lives by rules lawyering, dies by rules lawyering.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > dch
                  > >
                  > > --- In b5ccglist@yahoogrou <mailto:b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                  <b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Manuel
                  > > Tuthill" <manuel@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > I does appear to play out this way, can't see why it wouldn't have
                  come
                  > > up
                  > > > before, don't think I've ever played it like this before but given the
                  > > rise
                  > > > of alternates for Drakh etc could become fairly useful.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Manuel
                  > > >
                  > > > _____
                  > > >
                  > > > From: b5ccglist@yahoogrou <mailto:b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                  <b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                  > > b5ccglist@yahoogrou <mailto:b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                  <b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
                  > > > Of etherialsproing
                  > > > Sent: 29 April 2010 22:24
                  > > > To: b5ccglist@yahoogrou <mailto:b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                  <b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > Subject: [B5CCG] Limited Strike and Multiple Factions
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > AFAICT, Limited Strike was never Errated.
                  > > >
                  > > > Limited Strike
                  > > > Military Conflict
                  > > > Target a player with whom you have a tension of 3 or higher. No other
                  > > player
                  > > > may participate in the conflict. Tensions between the two races
                  increase
                  > > by
                  > > > 1. Babylon 5 loses 1 influence. If uncontested, your target loses 2
                  > > > influence. Gain +1 influence if you win the conflict by 10 or more.
                  > > >
                  > > > According to p. 58 of the Psi Corps Rulebook, "Unless otherwise
                  > > specified,
                  > > > if a race is not in Civil War, all military conflicts which target a
                  > > player
                  > > > of that race which can cause an influence loss to the target cause the
                  > > loss
                  > > > to each faction of the target race."
                  > > >
                  > > > Does this mean that if I target Sheridan's faction with Limited
                  Strike,
                  > > and
                  > > > Sheridan has no fleets (and therefore fails to contest), and Bester
                  has
                  > > > fleets (but is not the target and therefore cannot contest), and
                  nobody
                  > > > plays any Levels or other wackiness, they both lose influence?
                  > > >
                  > > > --
                  > > > - Gregory Stuart Pettigrew
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Babylon 5 CCG Community E-list.
                  > Keep it fun, keep it friendly, enjoy.
                  > If you have problems with the list contact me at jaxb5ranger@...
                  >
                  > Also, check out www.epsilonhex.com for more information about the game!
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe email:
                  > b5ccglist-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Bruce Mason
                  Limited Strike was never updated from Premiere Edition but dual races were included in Great War including the rules for military conflicts targeting players
                  Message 8 of 12 , May 18, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Limited Strike was never updated from Premiere Edition but dual races were
                    included in Great War including the rules for military conflicts targeting
                    players who are part of a "dual race". Personally I find the dual race rules
                    to be awful and don't use them. Limited Strike, like a lot of Premiere
                    Edition cards, did not have any sort of consistent templating for text so
                    it's almost impossible to rules-lawyer the card. For example, as you say,
                    players don't have tensions to each other, races do.

                    The intent of Limited Strike in Dual Race games is that you target a player
                    and all players who are playing factions of the same race as the targeted
                    player, suffer any consequences. This is unless there is a civil war in
                    progress.

                    To be honest, it's probably best to play with the card in whatever way best
                    suits your group.

                    The official ruling, before Precedence went under was something like:
                    Limited Strike targets a single player. No players other than the target and
                    initiator can become involved unless a card permits it. If that player is
                    part of a dual race and loses influence due to Limited Strike, then all
                    players of that race lose influence.

                    If you look at the military conflicts from Premiere which were updated for
                    the Deluxe Edition, they make an attempt to be consistent by referring to
                    all factions of a given race losing influence. As I recall, the designers
                    believed that Limited Strike was a mistake, which is why it was never
                    reprinted.
                    Bruce
                    On 10 May 2010 22:04, Manuel Tuthill <manuel@...> wrote:

                    > Perhaps one of the rules guru's can chime in, if not I'll take a really
                    > good
                    > look at the latest rules/errata/rulings and try and issue a ruling (for
                    > anyone who wants to listen to it)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Manuel
                    >
                    > _____
                    >
                    > From: b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com] On
                    > Behalf
                    > Of DonH
                    > Sent: 07 May 2010 15:17
                    > To: b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [B5CCG] Limited Strike and Multiple Factions
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I disagree. The wording is such that the card can never be played. You must
                    > have a tension with the player as he is the target. Since you never have
                    > tension with a player, as tension is defined as between factions, not
                    > players. Therefore the card must be rewritten as targeting a faction that
                    > has a tension with your faction or thrown out. All you need to do is decide
                    > before you play which it will be.
                    >
                    > --- In b5ccglist@yahoogrou <mailto:b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com<b5ccglist%2540yahoogroups.com>>
                    > ps.com, Mike
                    > DOttavio <ssjthrakath@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > You do have tension between different factions of the same race, last
                    > time
                    > I checked, so the rules work just fine. It does appear, however, that it's
                    > a
                    > bad idea to hit a player of the same faction as you with things like
                    > Limited
                    > Strike. I suppose you could always contest it with your own fleets.
                    > >
                    > > --- On Fri, 5/7/10, William Lydick <wlydick@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > From: William Lydick <wlydick@...>
                    > > Subject: Re: [B5CCG] Limited Strike and Multiple Factions
                    > > To: b5ccglist@yahoogrou <mailto:b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com<b5ccglist%2540yahoogroups.com>>
                    > ps.com
                    > > Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 6:36 AM
                    > >
                    > > To be honest, this situation will never occur in one of my tournaments,
                    > > given that I never allow more than one player of a race at a given table.
                    > >
                    > > On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 6:07 PM, DonH <dcholtx@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > So if we are going to be rules sticklers, then you don't have tensions
                    > > > between players but between races. Since there is no tension, the card
                    > can
                    > > > never be used.
                    > > >
                    > > > Now if it read "Target a race" then any faction of that race is free to
                    > > > participate. Though there are other ways to add opposition to a
                    > conflict,
                    > > > right Capt. Sinclair?
                    > > >
                    > > > So I would suggest that you either correct the card or eliminate it. He
                    > who
                    > > > lives by rules lawyering, dies by rules lawyering.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > dch
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In b5ccglist@yahoogrou <mailto:b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com<b5ccglist%2540yahoogroups.com>>
                    > ps.com
                    > <b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Manuel
                    > > > Tuthill" <manuel@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I does appear to play out this way, can't see why it wouldn't have
                    > come
                    > > > up
                    > > > > before, don't think I've ever played it like this before but given
                    > the
                    > > > rise
                    > > > > of alternates for Drakh etc could become fairly useful.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Manuel
                    > > > >
                    > > > > _____
                    > > > >
                    > > > > From: b5ccglist@yahoogrou <mailto:b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com<b5ccglist%2540yahoogroups.com>>
                    > ps.com
                    > <b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                    > > > b5ccglist@yahoogrou <mailto:b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com<b5ccglist%2540yahoogroups.com>>
                    > ps.com
                    > <b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
                    > > > > Of etherialsproing
                    > > > > Sent: 29 April 2010 22:24
                    > > > > To: b5ccglist@yahoogrou <mailto:b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com<b5ccglist%2540yahoogroups.com>>
                    > ps.com
                    > <b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > > > Subject: [B5CCG] Limited Strike and Multiple Factions
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > AFAICT, Limited Strike was never Errated.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Limited Strike
                    > > > > Military Conflict
                    > > > > Target a player with whom you have a tension of 3 or higher. No other
                    > > > player
                    > > > > may participate in the conflict. Tensions between the two races
                    > increase
                    > > > by
                    > > > > 1. Babylon 5 loses 1 influence. If uncontested, your target loses 2
                    > > > > influence. Gain +1 influence if you win the conflict by 10 or more.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > According to p. 58 of the Psi Corps Rulebook, "Unless otherwise
                    > > > specified,
                    > > > > if a race is not in Civil War, all military conflicts which target a
                    > > > player
                    > > > > of that race which can cause an influence loss to the target cause
                    > the
                    > > > loss
                    > > > > to each faction of the target race."
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Does this mean that if I target Sheridan's faction with Limited
                    > Strike,
                    > > > and
                    > > > > Sheridan has no fleets (and therefore fails to contest), and Bester
                    > has
                    > > > > fleets (but is not the target and therefore cannot contest), and
                    > nobody
                    > > > > plays any Levels or other wackiness, they both lose influence?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --
                    > > > > - Gregory Stuart Pettigrew
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > > Babylon 5 CCG Community E-list.
                    > > Keep it fun, keep it friendly, enjoy.
                    > > If you have problems with the list contact me at jaxb5ranger@...
                    > >
                    > > Also, check out www.epsilonhex.com for more information about the game!
                    > >
                    > > To unsubscribe email:
                    > > b5ccglist-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Babylon 5 CCG Community E-list.
                    > Keep it fun, keep it friendly, enjoy.
                    > If you have problems with the list contact me at jaxb5ranger@....
                    >
                    > Also, check out www.epsilonhex.com for more information about the game!
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe email:
                    > b5ccglist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Ward, Charles D
                    Just curious about this: If one uses University Complex to boost Capt. Sinclair s abilities, and *then* one (as an ISA member) uses ISA President, card,
                    Message 9 of 12 , May 18, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Just curious about this: If one uses "University Complex" to boost
                      'Capt. Sinclair's' abilities, and *then* one (as an ISA member) uses
                      "ISA President," card, does he first lose what U.C. boosted, then add
                      what ISA Prez brings, or is it accumulative?

                      Charles W.





                      From: b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com] On
                      Behalf Of Bruce Mason
                      Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 10:59 AM
                      To: b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [B5CCG] Limited Strike and Multiple Factions





                      Limited Strike was never updated from Premiere Edition but dual races
                      were
                      included in Great War including the rules for military conflicts
                      targeting
                      players who are part of a "dual race". Personally I find the dual race
                      rules
                      to be awful and don't use them. Limited Strike, like a lot of Premiere
                      Edition cards, did not have any sort of consistent templating for text
                      so
                      it's almost impossible to rules-lawyer the card. For example, as you
                      say,
                      players don't have tensions to each other, races do.

                      The intent of Limited Strike in Dual Race games is that you target a
                      player
                      and all players who are playing factions of the same race as the
                      targeted
                      player, suffer any consequences. This is unless there is a civil war in
                      progress.

                      To be honest, it's probably best to play with the card in whatever way
                      best
                      suits your group.

                      The official ruling, before Precedence went under was something like:
                      Limited Strike targets a single player. No players other than the target
                      and
                      initiator can become involved unless a card permits it. If that player
                      is
                      part of a dual race and loses influence due to Limited Strike, then all
                      players of that race lose influence.

                      If you look at the military conflicts from Premiere which were updated
                      for
                      the Deluxe Edition, they make an attempt to be consistent by referring
                      to
                      all factions of a given race losing influence. As I recall, the
                      designers
                      believed that Limited Strike was a mistake, which is why it was never
                      reprinted.
                      Bruce
                      On 10 May 2010 22:04, Manuel Tuthill <manuel@...
                      <mailto:manuel%40nebula-it.co.uk> > wrote:

                      > Perhaps one of the rules guru's can chime in, if not I'll take a
                      really
                      > good
                      > look at the latest rules/errata/rulings and try and issue a ruling
                      (for
                      > anyone who wants to listen to it)
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Manuel
                      >
                      > _____
                      >
                      > From: b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com>
                      [mailto:b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com> ]
                      On
                      > Behalf
                      > Of DonH
                      > Sent: 07 May 2010 15:17
                      > To: b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > Subject: Re: [B5CCG] Limited Strike and Multiple Factions
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I disagree. The wording is such that the card can never be played. You
                      must
                      > have a tension with the player as he is the target. Since you never
                      have
                      > tension with a player, as tension is defined as between factions, not
                      > players. Therefore the card must be rewritten as targeting a faction
                      that
                      > has a tension with your faction or thrown out. All you need to do is
                      decide
                      > before you play which it will be.
                      >
                      > --- In b5ccglist@yahoogrou
                      <mailto:b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com<b5ccglist%2540yahoogroups.com>>
                      > ps.com, Mike
                      > DOttavio <ssjthrakath@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > You do have tension between different factions of the same race,
                      last
                      > time
                      > I checked, so the rules work just fine. It does appear, however, that
                      it's
                      > a
                      > bad idea to hit a player of the same faction as you with things like
                      > Limited
                      > Strike. I suppose you could always contest it with your own fleets.
                      > >
                      > > --- On Fri, 5/7/10, William Lydick <wlydick@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > From: William Lydick <wlydick@...>
                      > > Subject: Re: [B5CCG] Limited Strike and Multiple Factions
                      > > To: b5ccglist@yahoogrou
                      <mailto:b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com<b5ccglist%2540yahoogroups.com>>
                      > ps.com
                      > > Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 6:36 AM
                      > >
                      > > To be honest, this situation will never occur in one of my
                      tournaments,
                      > > given that I never allow more than one player of a race at a given
                      table.
                      > >
                      > > On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 6:07 PM, DonH <dcholtx@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > So if we are going to be rules sticklers, then you don't have
                      tensions
                      > > > between players but between races. Since there is no tension, the
                      card
                      > can
                      > > > never be used.
                      > > >
                      > > > Now if it read "Target a race" then any faction of that race is
                      free to
                      > > > participate. Though there are other ways to add opposition to a
                      > conflict,
                      > > > right Capt. Sinclair?
                      > > >
                      > > > So I would suggest that you either correct the card or eliminate
                      it. He
                      > who
                      > > > lives by rules lawyering, dies by rules lawyering.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > dch
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In b5ccglist@yahoogrou
                      <mailto:b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com<b5ccglist%2540yahoogroups.com>>
                      > ps.com
                      > <b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Manuel
                      > > > Tuthill" <manuel@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I does appear to play out this way, can't see why it wouldn't
                      have
                      > come
                      > > > up
                      > > > > before, don't think I've ever played it like this before but
                      given
                      > the
                      > > > rise
                      > > > > of alternates for Drakh etc could become fairly useful.
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Manuel
                      > > > >
                      > > > > _____
                      > > > >
                      > > > > From: b5ccglist@yahoogrou
                      <mailto:b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com<b5ccglist%2540yahoogroups.com>>
                      > ps.com
                      > <b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                      > > > b5ccglist@yahoogrou
                      <mailto:b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com<b5ccglist%2540yahoogroups.com>>
                      > ps.com
                      > <b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
                      > > > > Of etherialsproing
                      > > > > Sent: 29 April 2010 22:24
                      > > > > To: b5ccglist@yahoogrou
                      <mailto:b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com<b5ccglist%2540yahoogroups.com>>
                      > ps.com
                      > <b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > > > Subject: [B5CCG] Limited Strike and Multiple Factions
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > AFAICT, Limited Strike was never Errated.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Limited Strike
                      > > > > Military Conflict
                      > > > > Target a player with whom you have a tension of 3 or higher. No
                      other
                      > > > player
                      > > > > may participate in the conflict. Tensions between the two races
                      > increase
                      > > > by
                      > > > > 1. Babylon 5 loses 1 influence. If uncontested, your target
                      loses 2
                      > > > > influence. Gain +1 influence if you win the conflict by 10 or
                      more.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > According to p. 58 of the Psi Corps Rulebook, "Unless otherwise
                      > > > specified,
                      > > > > if a race is not in Civil War, all military conflicts which
                      target a
                      > > > player
                      > > > > of that race which can cause an influence loss to the target
                      cause
                      > the
                      > > > loss
                      > > > > to each faction of the target race."
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Does this mean that if I target Sheridan's faction with Limited
                      > Strike,
                      > > > and
                      > > > > Sheridan has no fleets (and therefore fails to contest), and
                      Bester
                      > has
                      > > > > fleets (but is not the target and therefore cannot contest), and
                      > nobody
                      > > > > plays any Levels or other wackiness, they both lose influence?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --
                      > > > > - Gregory Stuart Pettigrew
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ------------------------------------
                      > >
                      > > Babylon 5 CCG Community E-list.
                      > > Keep it fun, keep it friendly, enjoy.
                      > > If you have problems with the list contact me at jaxb5ranger@...
                      > >
                      > > Also, check out www.epsilonhex.com for more information about the
                      game!
                      > >
                      > > To unsubscribe email:
                      > > b5ccglist-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Babylon 5 CCG Community E-list.
                      > Keep it fun, keep it friendly, enjoy.
                      > If you have problems with the list contact me at jaxb5ranger@...
                      <mailto:jaxb5ranger%40aol.com> .
                      >
                      > Also, check out www.epsilonhex.com for more information about the
                      game!
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe email:
                      > b5ccglist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo
                      <mailto:b5ccglist-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo> ! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Manuel Tuthill
                      Thanks Bruce, Nice to have something pseudo official for those that like official. Of course goes without saying that you should play by whatever rules suits
                      Message 10 of 12 , May 18, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Thanks Bruce,

                        Nice to have something pseudo official for those that like official. Of
                        course goes without saying that you should play by whatever rules suits you
                        playgroup. Plus, and this is more important, saves me trying to make a
                        ruling.

                        Manuel
                        ________________________________________
                        From: b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                        Of Bruce Mason
                        Sent: 18 May 2010 15:59
                        To: b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [B5CCG] Limited Strike and Multiple Factions

                         
                        Limited Strike was never updated from Premiere Edition but dual races were
                        included in Great War including the rules for military conflicts targeting
                        players who are part of a "dual race". Personally I find the dual race rules
                        to be awful and don't use them. Limited Strike, like a lot of Premiere
                        Edition cards, did not have any sort of consistent templating for text so
                        it's almost impossible to rules-lawyer the card. For example, as you say,
                        players don't have tensions to each other, races do.

                        The intent of Limited Strike in Dual Race games is that you target a player
                        and all players who are playing factions of the same race as the targeted
                        player, suffer any consequences. This is unless there is a civil war in
                        progress.

                        To be honest, it's probably best to play with the card in whatever way best
                        suits your group.

                        The official ruling, before Precedence went under was something like:
                        Limited Strike targets a single player. No players other than the target and
                        initiator can become involved unless a card permits it. If that player is
                        part of a dual race and loses influence due to Limited Strike, then all
                        players of that race lose influence.

                        If you look at the military conflicts from Premiere which were updated for
                        the Deluxe Edition, they make an attempt to be consistent by referring to
                        all factions of a given race losing influence. As I recall, the designers
                        believed that Limited Strike was a mistake, which is why it was never
                        reprinted.
                        Bruce
                        On 10 May 2010 22:04, Manuel Tuthill <manuel@...> wrote:

                        > Perhaps one of the rules guru's can chime in, if not I'll take a really
                        > good
                        > look at the latest rules/errata/rulings and try and issue a ruling (for
                        > anyone who wants to listen to it)
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Manuel
                        >
                        > _____
                        >
                        > From: b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com] On
                        > Behalf
                        > Of DonH
                        > Sent: 07 May 2010 15:17
                        > To: b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [B5CCG] Limited Strike and Multiple Factions
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I disagree. The wording is such that the card can never be played. You
                        must
                        > have a tension with the player as he is the target. Since you never have
                        > tension with a player, as tension is defined as between factions, not
                        > players. Therefore the card must be rewritten as targeting a faction that
                        > has a tension with your faction or thrown out. All you need to do is
                        decide
                        > before you play which it will be.
                        >
                        > --- In b5ccglist@yahoogrou
                        <mailto:b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com<b5ccglist%2540yahoogroups.com>>
                        > ps.com, Mike
                        > DOttavio <ssjthrakath@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > You do have tension between different factions of the same race, last
                        > time
                        > I checked, so the rules work just fine. It does appear, however, that it's
                        > a
                        > bad idea to hit a player of the same faction as you with things like
                        > Limited
                        > Strike. I suppose you could always contest it with your own fleets.
                        > >
                        > > --- On Fri, 5/7/10, William Lydick <wlydick@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > From: William Lydick <wlydick@...>
                        > > Subject: Re: [B5CCG] Limited Strike and Multiple Factions
                        > > To: b5ccglist@yahoogrou
                        <mailto:b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com<b5ccglist%2540yahoogroups.com>>
                        > ps.com
                        > > Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 6:36 AM
                        > >
                        > > To be honest, this situation will never occur in one of my tournaments,
                        > > given that I never allow more than one player of a race at a given
                        table.
                        > >
                        > > On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 6:07 PM, DonH <dcholtx@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > So if we are going to be rules sticklers, then you don't have tensions
                        > > > between players but between races. Since there is no tension, the card
                        > can
                        > > > never be used.
                        > > >
                        > > > Now if it read "Target a race" then any faction of that race is free
                        to
                        > > > participate. Though there are other ways to add opposition to a
                        > conflict,
                        > > > right Capt. Sinclair?
                        > > >
                        > > > So I would suggest that you either correct the card or eliminate it.
                        He
                        > who
                        > > > lives by rules lawyering, dies by rules lawyering.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > dch
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In b5ccglist@yahoogrou
                        <mailto:b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com<b5ccglist%2540yahoogroups.com>>
                        > ps.com
                        > <b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Manuel
                        > > > Tuthill" <manuel@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I does appear to play out this way, can't see why it wouldn't have
                        > come
                        > > > up
                        > > > > before, don't think I've ever played it like this before but given
                        > the
                        > > > rise
                        > > > > of alternates for Drakh etc could become fairly useful.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Manuel
                        > > > >
                        > > > > _____
                        > > > >
                        > > > > From: b5ccglist@yahoogrou
                        <mailto:b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com<b5ccglist%2540yahoogroups.com>>
                        > ps.com
                        > <b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                        > > > b5ccglist@yahoogrou
                        <mailto:b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com<b5ccglist%2540yahoogroups.com>>
                        > ps.com
                        > <b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
                        > > > > Of etherialsproing
                        > > > > Sent: 29 April 2010 22:24
                        > > > > To: b5ccglist@yahoogrou
                        <mailto:b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com<b5ccglist%2540yahoogroups.com>>
                        > ps.com
                        > <b5ccglist%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > > Subject: [B5CCG] Limited Strike and Multiple Factions
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > AFAICT, Limited Strike was never Errated.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Limited Strike
                        > > > > Military Conflict
                        > > > > Target a player with whom you have a tension of 3 or higher. No
                        other
                        > > > player
                        > > > > may participate in the conflict. Tensions between the two races
                        > increase
                        > > > by
                        > > > > 1. Babylon 5 loses 1 influence. If uncontested, your target loses 2
                        > > > > influence. Gain +1 influence if you win the conflict by 10 or more.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > According to p. 58 of the Psi Corps Rulebook, "Unless otherwise
                        > > > specified,
                        > > > > if a race is not in Civil War, all military conflicts which target a
                        > > > player
                        > > > > of that race which can cause an influence loss to the target cause
                        > the
                        > > > loss
                        > > > > to each faction of the target race."
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Does this mean that if I target Sheridan's faction with Limited
                        > Strike,
                        > > > and
                        > > > > Sheridan has no fleets (and therefore fails to contest), and Bester
                        > has
                        > > > > fleets (but is not the target and therefore cannot contest), and
                        > nobody
                        > > > > plays any Levels or other wackiness, they both lose influence?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --
                        > > > > - Gregory Stuart Pettigrew
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
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