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Re: [B5CCG] A question from someone just getting back into the game

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  • curevei@aol.com
    In a message dated 1/30/2008 9:45:22 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, davidsmith1174@btinternet.com writes: Since I haven t played the game since before The
    Message 1 of 5 , Feb 2, 2008
      In a message dated 1/30/2008 9:45:22 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
      davidsmith1174@... writes:

      Since I haven't played the game since before The Shadows came out (but
      have gotten back into the game since I found out it's playable online)
      I've hit a few problems building a deck. Roughly how many of each kind
      of card should I be looking at to start off with.

      Any help would be appreciated


      * * *
      I find it sort of interesting but mostly frustrating how little I would
      track decklists for this game. Anyway, here are some "random" ones (trying for
      some diversity of deck style) from mostly the later years (kind of
      unfortunate). None of these have Crusade piles included for various reasons. The
      metagames these were built for obviously vary. Errata and whatnot could make
      these less useful/nonfunctional, but I hope they have some use in illustrating
      different proportions in decks if not specific decks that someone would play.

      Rareless Narn Diplomacy
      [Start Hand]
      G'Kar
      Independent Support
      Muster Support
      Na'Toth

      [Main Deck]
      --------------------
      [Aftermath]
      United Front
      --------------------
      [Agenda]
      The Hope of Peace
      Never Again
      --------------------
      [Character]
      Narn Agitator
      Narn Agitator
      Narn Agitator
      Na'Mel
      Na'Far
      Kha'Mak
      Kha'Mak
      Ja'Doc
      Du'Rog
      Du'Nar
      --------------------
      [Conflict]
      Test Their Mettle
      Test Their Mettle
      Test Their Mettle
      Saber Rattling
      Saber Rattling
      Saber Rattling
      Hello, Old Friend
      Gunboat Diplomacy
      Gunboat Diplomacy
      Extreme Sanction
      Euphrates Treaty
      Diplomatic Intrusion
      --------------------
      [Contingency]
      Overwhelmed
      --------------------
      [Enhancement]
      We Are Not Impressed
      We Are Not Impressed
      Judgment by Success
      Fast Transport
      Commerce Raiding
      Commerce Raiding
      Book of G'Quan
      --------------------
      [Event]
      We Can't Allow That
      Squandered Chances
      Silver Tongue
      Self Doubt
      Rally to the Cause
      Political Realignment
      Out of the Loop
      Meditation
      Meditation
      Meditation
      Internal Opposition
      Hour of the Wolf
      Diplomatic Blunder
      Coordinated Fire
      --------------------
      [Fleet]
      Support Fleet (Narn)
      Support Fleet (Narn)
      Support Fleet (Narn)
      Strike Fleet
      Strike Fleet
      Strike Fleet
      Second Battle Fleet (Narn)
      First Battle Fleet (Narn)
      Expeditionary Fleet (Narn)
      Deep Space Fleet (Narn)
      Deep Space Fleet (Narn)
      Deep Space Fleet (Narn)
      Advance Fleet
      --------------------
      [Group]
      Resupply Network
      Narn Rabble
      --------------------
      [Location]
      Quadrant 14
      Narn Homeworld
      Narn Homeworld
      Conquered Holding
      ----------
      I got on a rareless kick for a while. Mostly, I was bored as I tended to
      get when I had tons of free time and built massive quantities of decks for
      CCGs. But, there is always the prove the point-ness of seeing what you could do
      rareless in a CCG if for no other reason than to get people with small
      collections to stop whining about how they can't compete. Trust me, I even wrote
      an article on it for Scrye, when I say that be happy you don't have to try to
      build a rareless/promoless deck for Wheel of Time. Now, that game had a huge
      power rare/promo problem.

      AoR, All In the Cards
      [Start Hand]
      Bester (Ambassador)
      Psi Corps Intelligence
      The Corps is Father
      The Corps Is Mother

      [Main Deck]
      --------------------
      [Aftermath]
      Be Seeing You
      Be Seeing You
      Be Seeing You
      --------------------
      [Agenda]
      Muster Support
      Alliance of Races
      Alliance of Races
      Alliance of Races
      --------------------
      [Character]
      Thirteen
      Reprogrammer
      Lou Welch
      Kelsey
      John Matheson
      Harriman Gray
      Dark Talia
      Bruder
      Alfred Bester
      Administrator Drake
      --------------------
      [Conflict]
      The Great Machine
      Psionic Pacification
      Psionic Pacification
      Psionic Pacification
      Asimov Laws
      --------------------
      [Contingency]
      Peace Dividend
      Peace Dividend
      Peace Dividend
      --------------------
      [Enhancement]
      Upgraded Defenses
      Upgraded Defenses
      --------------------
      [Event]
      The Greater Good
      The Chosen Ones
      The Chosen Ones
      The Chosen Ones
      Secret Strike
      Secret Strike
      Not Meant to Be
      Not Meant to Be
      Merchandising B5
      Merchandising B5
      Meditation
      Meditation
      Meditation
      Hindsight
      Glitch
      Glitch
      For the Common Good
      For the Common Good
      For the Common Good
      Conspiracy!
      Conspiracy!
      Conspiracy!
      Conscription
      Conscription
      Conscription
      Carpe Diem
      All In the Cards
      --------------------
      [Group]
      Telepath Recruiters
      --------------------
      [Location]
      Syria Planum
      ----------
      We seemed to be the only group who never gave up on Alliance of Races.
      Blowing up WANI in original gangsta (AoR, Forced Evolution, Order Above All)
      non-player influence decks with psi conflicts gave Psi Corps something useful to
      do. Note that heavy power decks are often better off with more events than
      normal, where influence gainer decks often use permanents to gain the
      influence. Now, I play a lot of events in general because I'm into having lots of
      tricks and not so much into grinding towards victory and there tends to be a
      limit to how many permanents you can play in a turn due to the influence costs
      whereas a bunch of events is cheap.

      Aug. 29 Minbari
      [Start Hand]
      Acolyte
      Delenn
      Muster Support
      Rapid Growth

      [Main Deck]
      --------------------
      [Aftermath]
      United Front
      --------------------
      [Agenda]
      Support of the Mighty
      Support of the Mighty
      Power Politics
      --------------------
      [Character]
      Warleader Shakiri
      Shakat
      Rathenn
      Minbari Telepath
      Lennier
      Hedronn
      Grey Council Servitor
      Durlan
      Draal
      Dhaliri
      --------------------
      [Conflict]
      Trade Pact
      Trade Pact
      Trade Pact
      Rally the People
      Destroy the Opposition
      --------------------
      [Enhancement]
      Triluminary
      --------------------
      [Event]
      Trade Windfall
      Trade Windfall
      Trade Windfall
      Spirit of Cooperation
      Short Term Goals
      Secret Strike
      Secret Strike
      Not Meant to Be
      Not Meant to Be
      Not Meant to Be
      Meditation
      Meditation
      Meditation
      Medical Assistance
      Liberating Resources
      Liberating Resources
      Liberating Resources
      Internal Opposition
      Internal Opposition
      Exploration
      Eliminate Threats
      Coincidence
      Carpe Diem
      --------------------
      [Fleet]
      Third Battle Fleet (Minbari)
      Support Fleet (Minbari)
      Planet Defense Fleet
      Homeworld Fleet (Minbari)
      Deep Space Fleet (Minbari)
      Colonial Fleet (Minbari)
      --------------------
      [Location]
      Minbar
      Minbar
      ----------
      Ah, the heady days of trade cheese. You may note that this deck is only 55
      cards. I think it was because 5 of the cards weren't in the deckbuilder
      when I built it.

      Narn Tournament [sic]
      [Start Hand]
      Build Infrastructure
      G'Kar
      Ko'Dath
      Narn Homeworld

      [Main Deck]
      --------------------
      [Agenda]
      Revenge
      Revenge
      Never Again
      --------------------
      [Character]
      Tu'Pari
      Na'Toth
      Na'Mel
      Kha'Mak
      Ja'Doc
      Ja'Doc
      G'Neb
      --------------------
      [Conflict]
      Show the Colors
      Show the Colors
      Show the Colors
      Limited Strike
      Limited Strike
      Limited Strike
      Border Raid
      Border Raid
      Border Raid
      Annex Neutral World
      Annex Neutral World
      Annex Neutral World
      --------------------
      [Enhancement]
      Zero Sum Game
      We Are Not Impressed
      We Are Not Impressed
      War Fever
      Commerce Raiding
      Commerce Raiding
      --------------------
      [Event]
      Taunts and Games
      Taunts and Games
      Taunts and Games
      Sneak Attack
      Sneak Attack
      Sneak Attack
      Secret Strike
      Out of the Loop
      Meditation
      Meditation
      Meditation
      Exploration
      Buy New Resources
      Attack Formation
      Attack Formation
      Attack Formation
      --------------------
      [Fleet]
      Strike Fleet
      Strike Fleet
      Strike Fleet
      Second Battle Fleet (Narn)
      Heavy Fleet
      Heavy Fleet
      Heavy Fleet
      First Battle Fleet (Narn)
      Expeditionary Fleet (Narn)
      Expeditionary Fleet (Narn)
      --------------------
      [Group]
      Narn Rabble
      --------------------
      [Location]
      Quadrant 14
      ----------
      Fairly mundane for me. I doubt I ever actually played it in a tournament
      since it has so many old, old school elements that would bore me.

      Religious Caste
      [Start Hand]
      Build Infrastructure
      Corporate Connections
      Delenn (transformer)
      Lennier

      [Main Deck]
      --------------------
      [Aftermath]
      United Front
      Now He's Ready
      Into Their Own
      Feast of Lights
      --------------------
      [Agenda]
      The Hope of Peace
      The Hope of Peace
      --------------------
      [Character]
      Shal Mayan
      Rathenn
      Ranger Lennier
      Minbari Telepath
      Minbari Aide
      Minbari Aide
      Minbari Aide
      Forell
      Entil'zha Delenn
      Draal
      Dhaliri
      Delenn Transformed
      Calenn
      Ashan
      Acolyte
      --------------------
      [Conflict]
      Trade Pact
      Trade Pact
      Rally the People
      Officer Exchange
      Officer Exchange
      Officer Exchange
      Destroy the Opposition
      Collaboration
      Collaboration
      Affirmation of Power
      Affirmation of Power
      --------------------
      [Contingency]
      Hidden Treasury
      --------------------
      [Enhancement]
      We Are Not Impressed
      Triluminary
      --------------------
      [Event]
      You Are Not Ready
      You Are Not Ready
      You Are Not Ready
      Trade Windfall
      Short Term Goals
      Short Term Goals
      Short Term Goals
      Not Meant to Be
      Meditation
      Meditation
      Meditation
      Chrysalis
      Carpe Diem
      --------------------
      [Fleet]
      Grey Council Fleet
      Colonial Fleet (Minbari)
      Colonial Fleet (Minbari)
      Colonial Fleet (Minbari)
      --------------------
      [Group]
      Religious Caste
      Religious Caste
      Heralds of the Grey
      --------------------
      [Location]
      Minbar
      ----------
      While certainly not the only person ever to play Religious Caste, I don't
      remember anyone else championing the idea of a weenie RC deck. Good? Eh.
      Not just another Minbari Support of the Mighty deck? ...

      Subvert the Nexus
      [Start Hand]
      Corporate Connections
      Councilor La'shan
      Londo Mollari
      Rapid Growth

      [Main Deck]
      --------------------
      [Aftermath]
      Renowned Victory
      Glory
      --------------------
      [Agenda]
      Subvert the Nexus
      Subvert the Nexus
      --------------------
      [Character]
      Shiv'kala
      Sharrukin
      Shar'kali
      Rimush
      Napar'ishu
      Centauri Courier
      Ambitious Captain
      --------------------
      [Conflict]
      Show the Colors
      Show the Colors
      Show the Colors
      Nanotech Plague
      Forced Down
      Forced Down
      Annex Neutral World
      Annex Neutral World
      Annex Neutral World
      --------------------
      [Contingency]
      Hyperspace Getaway
      Hidden Treasury
      --------------------
      [Enhancement]
      We Are Not Impressed
      We Are Not Impressed
      Organic Technology
      Nowhere to Hide
      Fifth Column
      Fifth Column
      Commerce Raiding
      Apocalypse Box
      Apocalypse Box
      --------------------
      [Event]
      Short Term Goals
      Short Term Goals
      Short Term Goals
      Null Field
      Null Field
      Null Field
      Meditation
      Meditation
      Meditation
      For My People
      For My People
      For My People
      Exploration
      --------------------
      [Fleet]
      Third Battle Fleet (Centauri)
      Second Battle Fleet (Centauri)
      Main Battlefleet
      Force Omega
      First Battle Fleet (Centauri)
      Drone Fleet
      Drakh Raiders
      Drakh Raiders
      Drakh Raiders
      Drakh Armada
      Conquest Fleet
      ----------
      Man, did I hate the introduction of the Drakh (the ISA, Crusade piles,
      anything to do with unrest, endless hosers, ...). But, it did open up a lot of
      (mostly bad or game ruining) deck constructing space to the game. I assume
      this is only 59 cards for a reason.

      B4 Major
      [Start Hand]
      Centauri Courier
      Independent Support
      Londo Mollari
      Our Own People First

      [Main Deck]
      --------------------
      [Aftermath]
      Valen's War
      Unstuck in Time
      Unstuck in Time
      Unstuck in Time
      The One
      Rapid Aging
      Personal Growth
      Flashback
      --------------------
      [Agenda]
      Steal Babylon 4
      Steal Babylon 4
      Steal Babylon 4
      --------------------
      [Character]
      Prime Minister Mollari
      Minister Virini
      Minister Verano
      Minister Malachai
      Minister Durano
      Minister Chorlini
      Lord Kiro
      Lady Timov
      Lady Mariel
      Lady Daggair
      Emperor Mollari II
      --------------------
      [Conflict]
      Watch Your Back
      Time Jump
      Time Jump
      They're Killing Us!
      Nuclear Bluff
      Hello, Old Friend
      Giant Fusion Bomb
      Evacuation
      Dogfight
      Cannot Run Out of Time
      --------------------
      [Contingency]
      Hidden Treasury
      --------------------
      [Enhancement]
      We Are Not Impressed
      The Eye
      PPG Rifle
      Commerce Raiding
      --------------------
      [Event]
      Short Term Goals
      Short Term Goals
      Short Term Goals
      Predestination
      Predestination
      Predestination
      Not Meant to Be
      Not Meant to Be
      Not Meant to Be
      Meditation
      Meditation
      Meditation
      Exploration
      Carpe Diem
      --------------------
      [Fleet]
      Utility Fleet (Centauri)
      Third Battle Fleet (Centauri)
      Second Battle Fleet (Centauri)
      First Battle Fleet (Centauri)
      Deep Space Fleet (Centauri)
      ----------
      Trying to avoid the more esoteric decks. While B4 was introduced later in
      the game, the B4 Major strategy (B4 + Emperor = when someone else wins, you
      win a [trump] major) worked quite well for me at some point in our play
      history, likely because it wasn't terribly aggressive, unlike my penchant for
      hyperspeed decks which were terribly aggro, while lacking the ineptitude of many of
      my humorous decks. I think my first tournament win ever might have been
      with Centauri B5 influence diplomacy in the days not long after the release of
      Shadows, so oh well.

      Chosen of Squid, Post Crusade
      [Start Hand]
      Miziri Tal
      Rapid Growth
      Rule By the Masses
      Vlur/Nhar
      Wushmeshkeshlep Fo

      [Main Deck]
      --------------------
      [Aftermath]
      United We Stand
      Feast of Lights
      --------------------
      [Agenda]
      Chosen of God
      Chosen of God
      Chosen of God
      --------------------
      [Character]
      Trakis
      Suarez Cil'tlakh
      She'Lah
      Rogue Soul Hunter
      Nug/Ulg
      Non-Aligned Aide
      Non-Aligned Aide
      Non-Aligned Aide
      Non-Aligned Agent
      Nhuk/Vrek
      Nhuk/Vrek
      Milashi Voktal
      Luhf/Syhf
      Luhf/Syhf
      Lhim/Dram
      Lhim/Dram
      Hyach Matriarch
      Brakiri Priest
      --------------------
      [Conflict]
      War Crimes Trial
      Tomorrow's Children
      Shine in the Night
      Saber Rattling
      Prey on the Weak
      Officer Exchange
      Officer Exchange
      Officer Exchange
      Disruption
      Disruption
      Destroy the Opposition
      Aggressive Action
      Aggressive Action
      --------------------
      [Contingency]
      Treachery
      Purple Files
      Purple Files
      Purple Files
      --------------------
      [Enhancement]
      We Are Not Impressed
      We Are Not Impressed
      Pak'ma'ra's Hump
      Nowhere to Hide
      League Spokesbeing
      --------------------
      [Event]
      You Have No Power Here
      Not Meant to Be
      My Hands Are Tied
      Meditation
      Meditation
      Meditation
      Level the Playing Field
      Hindsight
      Diplomatic Blunder
      Different Perspectives
      Carpe Diem
      --------------------
      [Fleet]
      Combined Fleet
      Combined Fleet
      Combined Fleet
      --------------------
      [Location]
      Zhabar
      Pak'ma'ra Spacelanes
      ----------
      Rather than the more obscure Chosen of God decks I tended to play (many that
      were military or using awful species like Llort), this seems relatively
      normal, if maybe not all that powerful for its day.

      Master of All, Technomage
      [Start Hand]
      Alwyn
      Captain Sheridan (extra card)
      Corporate Connections
      Muster Support
      We'll Take Over

      [Main Deck]
      --------------------
      [Aftermath]
      Refusal to Yield
      Feast of Lights
      --------------------
      [Agenda]
      Master of All
      Master of All
      Master of All
      --------------------
      [Character]
      Zathr'as
      Techno-mage
      Talia Winters
      Matthew Gideon
      King Arthur
      Elric
      Elizabeth Trent
      Dr. Sarah Chambers
      Bester
      --------------------
      [Conflict]
      Watch Your Back
      Visions in Time
      Visions in Time
      Time Jump
      The Great Machine
      Sleeper Personality
      Sleeper Personality
      Sleeper Personality
      Impasse
      Impasse
      Impasse
      Hello, Old Friend
      Evacuation
      Dogfight
      Dogfight
      Defuse the Situation
      Cannot Run Out of Time
      Arrest Dissidents
      --------------------
      [Contingency]
      Steal Skills
      --------------------
      [Enhancement]
      We Are Not Impressed
      We Are Not Impressed
      We Are Not Impressed
      Premonition
      Independent Support
      --------------------
      [Event]
      The Fen
      The Fen
      The Fen
      Self Doubt
      Secret Strike
      Secret Strike
      Secret Strike
      Recover and Regroup
      Recover and Regroup
      Predestination
      Predestination
      Predestination
      Not Meant to Be
      Not Meant to Be
      Not Meant to Be
      My Hands Are Tied
      My Hands Are Tied
      Meditation
      Meditation
      Meditation
      Level the Playing Field
      Bogged Down
      Bogged Down
      --------------------
      [Fleet]
      Utility Fleet (Human)
      Utility Fleet (Human)
      Utility Fleet (Human)
      Nova Dreadnoughts
      Nova Dreadnoughts
      Nova Dreadnoughts
      --------------------
      [Group]
      Psi Corps Intelligence
      --------------------
      [Location]
      Roam the Stars
      Roam the Stars
      ----------
      We had a variant tournament where everyone's agenda was Master of All (this
      deck isn't from that). It was decent. Mostly, though, and I think this
      applies to variant stuff in general, it made me think about different deck
      styles. Too often, I get in a rut and keep doing variations on a theme. While it
      could be said that all I did was move this habit over to Master of All to
      keep trying to figure out ways to cheese MoA, mostly with psi and Secret Strike,
      at least it wasn't a variation on abusing Full Mobilization or playing a 7
      military fleet on turn one.

      Nightwatch Intrigue
      [Start Hand]
      Nightwatch Collaborators
      Our Own People First
      William Morgan Clark (Ambassador)
      Zack Allen

      [Main Deck]
      --------------------
      [Aftermath]
      Successful Manipulation
      Now He's Ready
      Exploit Opportunities
      Be Seeing You
      Be Seeing You
      Be Seeing You
      --------------------
      [Agenda]
      Support of the Mighty
      Our Own People First
      Knowledge is Power
      --------------------
      [Character]
      Thirteen
      Sniper
      Sniper
      Sniper
      Senator Young
      Senator King
      Sarah
      Psychopath
      Psychopath
      Psychopath
      Pierce Macabee
      Nightwatch Agent
      Mister Welles
      Mister Allan
      Matthew Stoner
      Laurel Takashima
      Deep Agent
      Deep Agent
      Deep Agent
      Dark Talia
      Bester
      --------------------
      [Conflict]
      Time Jump
      Sleeper Personality
      Put on the Squeeze
      Prey on the Weak
      Prey on the Weak
      Prey on the Weak
      Looking Ahead
      Is That the Whole Truth?
      Extermination
      Disruption
      Disruption
      Disruption
      Black Market
      Attacking Pawns
      Asimov Laws
      --------------------
      [Contingency]
      Purple Files
      Purple Files
      --------------------
      [Enhancement]
      Silent Majority
      Cocksure
      --------------------
      [Event]
      Underworld Connections
      Political Realignment
      Offer a Position
      Medical Assistance
      Conspiracy!
      Conspiracy!
      Conspiracy!
      Between You & The Abyss
      --------------------
      [Fleet]
      Second Battle Fleet (Human)
      Fleet of the Line
      --------------------
      [Group]
      Special Intelligence
      Nest of Vipers
      --------------------
      [Location]
      Earth
      ----------
      Not sure why this has no Meditations since every real deck should have x3
      Meditation.

      Aug. 29 NA
      [Start Hand]
      Build Infrastructure
      Civil Servants
      Fashar
      Vizak
      Vlur/Nhar

      [Main Deck]
      --------------------
      [Agenda]
      Seizing Advantage
      Seizing Advantage
      Seizing Advantage
      Power Politics
      Peace In Our Time
      --------------------
      [Character]
      Telepath Recruit
      Telepath Recruit
      Telepath Recruit
      Non-Aligned Captain
      Non-Aligned Captain
      Non-Aligned Captain
      Non-Aligned Aide
      Non-Aligned Aide
      Non-Aligned Aide
      Non-Aligned Agent
      Non-Aligned Agent
      Non-Aligned Agent
      Nhuk/Vrek
      Milashi Voktal
      Luhf/Syhf
      Lhim/Dram
      Hyach Matriarch
      Brakiri Merchant
      Brakiri Merchant
      Brakiri Merchant
      --------------------
      [Conflict]
      Trade Pact
      Officer Exchange
      Officer Exchange
      Impasse
      Affirmation of Power
      --------------------
      [Contingency]
      Guarded Resource
      Guarded Resource
      --------------------
      [Enhancement]
      We Are Not Impressed
      We Are Not Impressed
      We Are Not Impressed
      --------------------
      [Event]
      Play for Keeps
      Play for Keeps
      Play for Keeps
      Meditation
      Meditation
      Meditation
      Different Perspectives
      Different Perspectives
      --------------------
      [Fleet]
      Vree Scouts
      Drazi Strike Fleet
      Combined Fleet
      Combined Fleet
      Combined Fleet
      Brakiri Cruisers
      --------------------
      [Location]
      Zhabar
      Pak'ma'ra Spacelanes
      Melat
      ----------
      There's a more normal NA deck in my deckbuilder archive, but it's another
      trade cheese deck. This seemed a tad more interesting without being way out
      there.

      I think I'll stop here. This is probably something to start with, and if
      someone else wants to chime in with their differing deckbuilding philosophies,
      then you will get a broader idea of what gets played than just the stuff I
      can lay my hands on without too much difficulty. I do still have some decks
      physically built, but they tend toward the esoteric. Straightforward
      tournament style decks would be a touch harder for me to find decklists for simply
      because I didn't tend to play the common archetypes in tournaments.



      **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
      (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025
      48)


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • alvest@earthlink.net
      ... Thanks very much. I will try to learn something from those decks! -- Albert Vest, al vest at earth link dot net
      Message 2 of 5 , Feb 17, 2008
        curevei@... wrote:

        > * * *
        > I find it sort of interesting but mostly frustrating how little I would
        > track decklists for this game. Anyway, here are some "random" ones (trying for
        > some diversity of deck style) from mostly the later years (kind of
        > unfortunate). None of these have Crusade piles included for various reasons. The
        > metagames these were built for obviously vary. Errata and whatnot could make
        > these less useful/nonfunctional, but I hope they have some use in illustrating
        > different proportions in decks if not specific decks that someone would play.

        Thanks very much. I will try to learn something from those decks!

        --
        Albert Vest, al vest at earth link dot net
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