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RE: [B5CCG] deck construction

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  • James Cartwright
    Thanks to everyone for their help in how to make my decks better, most appreciated. I have just won an ebay auction for a box of Deluxe boosters so hopefully
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 1, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      Thanks to everyone for their help in how to make my decks better, most
      appreciated.

      I have just won an ebay auction for a box of Deluxe boosters so hopefully
      this will help me to make my decks better.

      the WANI card seems very powerful but then if the group I play in decided
      not to use it I suppose it wouldn't matter about building decks to defeat
      it, would it? unless we played other people or in tournamets of course,
      which seems unlikely at the moment.

      That is unless anyone out there has a few spare WANI's they would like to
      trade?

      regards

      James



      -----Original Message-----
      From: Bruce Mason [mailto:masonb@...]
      Sent: 27 October 2004 23:31
      To: b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [B5CCG] deck construction



      I must admit that it is hard for me to comment on decks that use 'real' card
      because I've been thinking so much about unreal cards. Given that the sets
      were
      about vorlons and rangers it is even harder to remember why this kind of
      deck
      was never massively strong.

      The thing that most leaps out at me is lack of any ability to ever win with
      this
      deck. In a 60 card deck I would run 12 influence/power gaining conflicts.
      Given
      that you seem to have no card drawing in here and minimal power boost then
      it
      might take the best part of 6 hours to get to 20 power. e.g say a game
      lasts 15
      turns (around 2 hours) then you may have a total of 200 influence to spend.
      If
      you want to draw 1/2 your deck then you've got 14 free cards and then the
      rest
      of your cards cost 48 influence. Basically you have around 150 influence to
      spend. 18 of that is used for building so you have around 130 influence.

      So you draw 30 cards, average draw of 4 conflicts in 15 turns. If you build
      to
      10 by turn 5 then you have only 4 conflicts in 10 turns which means you have
      6
      turns of doing nothing.

      Minbar + ranger training + turning one character in a ranger costs you 30
      influence. That's a lot to spend to turn one person into a ranger which has
      essentially done nothing for you except gain a Vorlon Mark and you now have
      100
      influence to spend.

      Obviously I don't know what cards you do or don't have but every B5 deck is
      better with 3 Meditations. You also need a plan B, even if it is just a
      back-up
      copy of SOO. If you are playing with people who have We Are Not Impressed
      you
      can guarantee that you will never win with that deck so you need a lot more
      influence gainers. You might as well stock Commerce Raiding if you have it.

      Your conflicts have diplomacy and military synergy, which is good. I would
      add
      some Annexe Neutral Worlds, etc in as well plus bump up the number of
      fleets.

      Basic 60 card deck dip/mil breakdown I would use.
      20 characters and fleets (include some cheap characters)
      15 conflicts
      21 other cards
      4 cards starting hand.
      To win the game you need to win conflicts, to win conflicts you need
      characters
      and fleets.
      Obvious key other cards are:
      Meditation - efficiency
      Level/Fleets on the Border etc
      You Are Not Ready
      Vorlon Mark gainers
      Chrysalis + triluminary
      That's 15-18 cards already.
      Other 3 cards should be based around winning
      e.g. Minbar, Commerce Raiding, Exploration, Back up agenda.

      Bruce


      >>> curevei@... 27/10/04 9:45 PM >>>

      In a message dated 10/26/2004 1:55:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
      jamescar@... writes:
      It might appear to be made up of only the first 3 sets but that's because I
      just don't have that many cards anymore.

      I never managed to get a booster box of the early B5 sets and had to rely on
      the odd booster or two plus the two-player starter sets.

      I did eventually get a fair amount of cards but I've given alot away to
      friends and family to get them interested in the game and have just kept the
      ones I liked.

      I now don't have any of the cards your talking about such as build
      infrastructure and have been out of the game for so long I can't remember
      what WANI is or having every seen the card.


      I've always found it difficult giving deck advice to people who didn't play
      in a recognizable environment. Even then, metagame differences made some
      advice useless.

      It's fine to not play a "starter" agenda if no one else does either, for
      instance. Same sort of issue with other facets of your opponents' decks.
      In
      the
      absence of any sense of your environment and any sense of what you hope to
      achieve in tuning a deck, advice is as likely to hurt as help. Even making
      a
      deck strictly better can result in turning off your opponents to the game
      since
      their decks may get outclassed. This is, BTW, one of the major benefits of
      tournament play even when a CCG isn't good for tournament play - it produces
      a
      standard environment for discussion.



      I don't mind my decks being slow as the aim of the game when playing with
      friends I believe is to have fun and not to win outright in a few turns.


      B5 has always had a problem with the first few turns being deadly boring.
      There have always been exceptions, whether it was first turn Great Machine
      (for
      the influence) or whether it was "if you don't Taunts and Games, the game's
      essentially over" on the first turn. But, the game usually isn't
      interesting
      until people are at 10 influence. So, you might as well get to 10 influence
      reasonably quickly. Shadows introduced "starter" agenda that started the
      trend
      of speeding up the early game a lot. Amusingly, Kevin both hated speed
      decks
      and introduced ISA, a card that encourages everyone to build quickly to 10
      to
      avoid getting shafted should the ISA form right away (before it shafted them
      later).



      I've found that although you can just sit there and collect influence with
      'AoR' it still does not prevent you getting attack by a more agressive deck
      such as the Narn and if they have a lot of ships and 'Never Again' they can
      soon win.

      I've recently got back into the game and picked up a booster box of Severed
      Dreams, this is the deck I came up with -

      Delenn(Transformer)
      Lennier
      Servants of Order
      Kosh Naranek
      (Jeffery Sinclair)

      Minbar

      Honoured Position
      Test their Mettle x3
      Saber Rattling x2
      Gunboat Diplomacy x3

      Homeworld Fleet
      Third Battle Fleet
      Second Battle Fleet
      Expeditionary Fleet
      First Battle Fleet

      Anla'shok
      Rangers Surveillance

      Hidden Knowledge x2
      Chrysalis
      Early Warning x2
      You are not Ready x3
      Level Playing Field x3
      Who are You x2
      Contact with Vorlons x3

      Ambassador Kosh
      Delenn Transformed
      Entil'zha
      Shakat
      Acolyte
      Rathenn
      Dhaliri
      Durlan
      Minbari Telepath
      Entil'zha Delenn

      Vorlon Enhancement
      Ranger Training
      Stealth Technology
      Triluminary
      Crystal City

      Approval of the Grey x3
      Vorlons Ascendant x3
      Renowned Victory x2

      Let me know what you think.


      What are you looking for?

      Make the deck better? Speed up the opening hand, ditch junk cards like
      Ranger Training, Crystal Cities, Hidden Knowledge, put in a second
      Triluminary
      in
      case the first gets toasted, drop Renowned Victory as being too hard to pull
      off, run x3 Meditation, x3 Not Meant To Be, Carpe Diem, etc. But, I have no
      idea whether this is useful. I've played Ranger Training often enough
      (often
      enough to bitch about how awful it is). I can relate to playing cards/card
      combinations just because they evoke some coolness irrespective of trying to
      win

      the game - I've Vorlon Rescued Mr. Morden before (one of the key events in
      my
      multiplayer CCG experience that led me to realizing that players should put
      a
      good faith effort into winning games or should not be playing CCGs). And, I
      have no idea which cards you found interesting enough to hold onto. I still
      have
      my entire collection, sitting around, doing nothing, with no hope of getting
      decent money for it, woe is me.

      Focus the deck on what it wants to do? Not sure what it wants to do. It's
      obvious that SOO is the winning agenda (which means you should be playing at
      least two copies, if nothing else, you might see Forced Impairment).
      Otherwise
      it lacks focus. Nothing wrong with that, of course.

      Better handle its weaknesses? Given how much the B5 environment has changed
      over the years, it's not at all clear what the weaknesses are. I could
      guess
      that an old school Centauri intrigue deck would annoy you or whatever, but
      if
      you are playing someone's Nightwatch deck or someone's Onslaught deck or
      Election Day or a Not Without a Fight deck, the answers all change. In
      general,

      I'd say forget defending against intrigue and just blow up certain conflicts
      with You Are Not Ready while focusing on making sure you can win your own
      conflicts.

      BTW, how come I'm the one to comment on these things? Is anyone out there
      actually playing? I'm only beginning to remember what a lot of cards do
      because

      I recently moved the deckbuilder to this computer because it was annoying me
      that I couldn't remember given how deeply mentally invested I was in the
      game
      for years.


      "You can poke him with a pillow and kill him."


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




      Babylon 5 CCG Community E-list.
      Keep it fun, keep it friendly, enjoy.
      If you have problems with the list contact me at jaxb5ranger@....

      Also, check out www.epsilonhex.com for more information about the game!

      To unsubscribe email:
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      Babylon 5 CCG Community E-list.
      Keep it fun, keep it friendly, enjoy.
      If you have problems with the list contact me at jaxb5ranger@....

      Also, check out www.epsilonhex.com for more information about the game!

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      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • mpforste
      WANI is a necessary card, if your group bans it they are breaking the game , WANI - We Are Not Impressed stops Agenda power. whoever bans it from play is a
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 1, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        WANI is a necessary card, if your group bans it they are breaking the game ,

        WANI - We Are Not Impressed stops Agenda power.

        whoever bans it from play is a power gamer and not worth playing with, If
        their game relies on winning with power from an agenda then they need more
        practice and you need to play wani as soon as their winning agenda hits the
        table. (That is how it happens with us) The moment Support of the Mighty is
        dropped by the Mimbari The Human / Narn / Centauri all fight to drop WANI as
        usually if they dont the Mimbari wins. It is not that powerful just stops
        cheesy Agenda wins.

        Mike.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: James Cartwright [mailto:jamescar@...]
        Sent: 01 November 2004 09:44
        To: b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [B5CCG] deck construction




        Thanks to everyone for their help in how to make my decks better, most
        appreciated.

        I have just won an ebay auction for a box of Deluxe boosters so hopefully
        this will help me to make my decks better.

        the WANI card seems very powerful but then if the group I play in decided
        not to use it I suppose it wouldn't matter about building decks to defeat
        it, would it? unless we played other people or in tournamets of course,
        which seems unlikely at the moment.

        That is unless anyone out there has a few spare WANI's they would like to
        trade?

        regards

        James



        -----Original Message-----
        From: Bruce Mason [mailto:masonb@...]
        Sent: 27 October 2004 23:31
        To: b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [B5CCG] deck construction



        I must admit that it is hard for me to comment on decks that use 'real' card
        because I've been thinking so much about unreal cards. Given that the sets
        were
        about vorlons and rangers it is even harder to remember why this kind of
        deck
        was never massively strong.

        The thing that most leaps out at me is lack of any ability to ever win with
        this
        deck. In a 60 card deck I would run 12 influence/power gaining conflicts.
        Given
        that you seem to have no card drawing in here and minimal power boost then
        it
        might take the best part of 6 hours to get to 20 power. e.g say a game
        lasts 15
        turns (around 2 hours) then you may have a total of 200 influence to spend.
        If
        you want to draw 1/2 your deck then you've got 14 free cards and then the
        rest
        of your cards cost 48 influence. Basically you have around 150 influence to
        spend. 18 of that is used for building so you have around 130 influence.

        So you draw 30 cards, average draw of 4 conflicts in 15 turns. If you build
        to
        10 by turn 5 then you have only 4 conflicts in 10 turns which means you have
        6
        turns of doing nothing.

        Minbar + ranger training + turning one character in a ranger costs you 30
        influence. That's a lot to spend to turn one person into a ranger which has
        essentially done nothing for you except gain a Vorlon Mark and you now have
        100
        influence to spend.

        Obviously I don't know what cards you do or don't have but every B5 deck is
        better with 3 Meditations. You also need a plan B, even if it is just a
        back-up
        copy of SOO. If you are playing with people who have We Are Not Impressed
        you
        can guarantee that you will never win with that deck so you need a lot more
        influence gainers. You might as well stock Commerce Raiding if you have it.

        Your conflicts have diplomacy and military synergy, which is good. I would
        add
        some Annexe Neutral Worlds, etc in as well plus bump up the number of
        fleets.

        Basic 60 card deck dip/mil breakdown I would use.
        20 characters and fleets (include some cheap characters)
        15 conflicts
        21 other cards
        4 cards starting hand.
        To win the game you need to win conflicts, to win conflicts you need
        characters
        and fleets.
        Obvious key other cards are:
        Meditation - efficiency
        Level/Fleets on the Border etc
        You Are Not Ready
        Vorlon Mark gainers
        Chrysalis + triluminary
        That's 15-18 cards already.
        Other 3 cards should be based around winning
        e.g. Minbar, Commerce Raiding, Exploration, Back up agenda.

        Bruce


        >>> curevei@... 27/10/04 9:45 PM >>>

        In a message dated 10/26/2004 1:55:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
        jamescar@... writes:
        It might appear to be made up of only the first 3 sets but that's because I
        just don't have that many cards anymore.

        I never managed to get a booster box of the early B5 sets and had to rely on
        the odd booster or two plus the two-player starter sets.

        I did eventually get a fair amount of cards but I've given alot away to
        friends and family to get them interested in the game and have just kept the
        ones I liked.

        I now don't have any of the cards your talking about such as build
        infrastructure and have been out of the game for so long I can't remember
        what WANI is or having every seen the card.


        I've always found it difficult giving deck advice to people who didn't play
        in a recognizable environment. Even then, metagame differences made some
        advice useless.

        It's fine to not play a "starter" agenda if no one else does either, for
        instance. Same sort of issue with other facets of your opponents' decks.
        In
        the
        absence of any sense of your environment and any sense of what you hope to
        achieve in tuning a deck, advice is as likely to hurt as help. Even making
        a
        deck strictly better can result in turning off your opponents to the game
        since
        their decks may get outclassed. This is, BTW, one of the major benefits of
        tournament play even when a CCG isn't good for tournament play - it produces
        a
        standard environment for discussion.



        I don't mind my decks being slow as the aim of the game when playing with
        friends I believe is to have fun and not to win outright in a few turns.


        B5 has always had a problem with the first few turns being deadly boring.
        There have always been exceptions, whether it was first turn Great Machine
        (for
        the influence) or whether it was "if you don't Taunts and Games, the game's
        essentially over" on the first turn. But, the game usually isn't
        interesting
        until people are at 10 influence. So, you might as well get to 10 influence
        reasonably quickly. Shadows introduced "starter" agenda that started the
        trend
        of speeding up the early game a lot. Amusingly, Kevin both hated speed
        decks
        and introduced ISA, a card that encourages everyone to build quickly to 10
        to
        avoid getting shafted should the ISA form right away (before it shafted them
        later).



        I've found that although you can just sit there and collect influence with
        'AoR' it still does not prevent you getting attack by a more agressive deck
        such as the Narn and if they have a lot of ships and 'Never Again' they can
        soon win.

        I've recently got back into the game and picked up a booster box of Severed
        Dreams, this is the deck I came up with -

        Delenn(Transformer)
        Lennier
        Servants of Order
        Kosh Naranek
        (Jeffery Sinclair)

        Minbar

        Honoured Position
        Test their Mettle x3
        Saber Rattling x2
        Gunboat Diplomacy x3

        Homeworld Fleet
        Third Battle Fleet
        Second Battle Fleet
        Expeditionary Fleet
        First Battle Fleet

        Anla'shok
        Rangers Surveillance

        Hidden Knowledge x2
        Chrysalis
        Early Warning x2
        You are not Ready x3
        Level Playing Field x3
        Who are You x2
        Contact with Vorlons x3

        Ambassador Kosh
        Delenn Transformed
        Entil'zha
        Shakat
        Acolyte
        Rathenn
        Dhaliri
        Durlan
        Minbari Telepath
        Entil'zha Delenn

        Vorlon Enhancement
        Ranger Training
        Stealth Technology
        Triluminary
        Crystal City

        Approval of the Grey x3
        Vorlons Ascendant x3
        Renowned Victory x2

        Let me know what you think.


        What are you looking for?

        Make the deck better? Speed up the opening hand, ditch junk cards like
        Ranger Training, Crystal Cities, Hidden Knowledge, put in a second
        Triluminary
        in
        case the first gets toasted, drop Renowned Victory as being too hard to pull
        off, run x3 Meditation, x3 Not Meant To Be, Carpe Diem, etc. But, I have no
        idea whether this is useful. I've played Ranger Training often enough
        (often
        enough to bitch about how awful it is). I can relate to playing cards/card
        combinations just because they evoke some coolness irrespective of trying to
        win

        the game - I've Vorlon Rescued Mr. Morden before (one of the key events in
        my
        multiplayer CCG experience that led me to realizing that players should put
        a
        good faith effort into winning games or should not be playing CCGs). And, I
        have no idea which cards you found interesting enough to hold onto. I still
        have
        my entire collection, sitting around, doing nothing, with no hope of getting
        decent money for it, woe is me.

        Focus the deck on what it wants to do? Not sure what it wants to do. It's
        obvious that SOO is the winning agenda (which means you should be playing at
        least two copies, if nothing else, you might see Forced Impairment).
        Otherwise
        it lacks focus. Nothing wrong with that, of course.

        Better handle its weaknesses? Given how much the B5 environment has changed
        over the years, it's not at all clear what the weaknesses are. I could
        guess
        that an old school Centauri intrigue deck would annoy you or whatever, but
        if
        you are playing someone's Nightwatch deck or someone's Onslaught deck or
        Election Day or a Not Without a Fight deck, the answers all change. In
        general,

        I'd say forget defending against intrigue and just blow up certain conflicts
        with You Are Not Ready while focusing on making sure you can win your own
        conflicts.

        BTW, how come I'm the one to comment on these things? Is anyone out there
        actually playing? I'm only beginning to remember what a lot of cards do
        because

        I recently moved the deckbuilder to this computer because it was annoying me
        that I couldn't remember given how deeply mentally invested I was in the
        game
        for years.


        "You can poke him with a pillow and kill him."


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        Babylon 5 CCG Community E-list.
        Keep it fun, keep it friendly, enjoy.
        If you have problems with the list contact me at jaxb5ranger@....

        Also, check out www.epsilonhex.com for more information about the game!

        To unsubscribe email:
        b5ccglist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        Yahoo! Groups Links











        Babylon 5 CCG Community E-list.
        Keep it fun, keep it friendly, enjoy.
        If you have problems with the list contact me at jaxb5ranger@....

        Also, check out www.epsilonhex.com for more information about the game!

        To unsubscribe email:
        b5ccglist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        Yahoo! Groups Links










        Babylon 5 CCG Community E-list.
        Keep it fun, keep it friendly, enjoy.
        If you have problems with the list contact me at jaxb5ranger@....

        Also, check out www.epsilonhex.com for more information about the game!

        To unsubscribe email:
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      • mpforste
        However on another note, WANI does not stop Steal Babylon 4. as Steal Babylon 4 doesnt give power it reduces power needed to win :-) Rotate this agenda to
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 1, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          However on another note, WANI does not stop Steal Babylon 4.

          as Steal Babylon 4 doesnt give power it reduces power needed to win :-)

          Rotate this agenda to search through your deck and take the first Babylon 4
          Conflict you find into your hand. (Shuffle your deck afterwards.) If another
          player is claiming victory, each Won Aftermath targeting your faction as a
          whole that has "Babylon 4" in its effect text reduces the amount of power
          you need to win by 1.

          So anyone playing this agenda can win even if WANI is in play.

          Just a thought

          Mike.

          -----Original Message-----
          From: James Cartwright [mailto:jamescar@...]
          Sent: 01 November 2004 09:44
          To: b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [B5CCG] deck construction




          Thanks to everyone for their help in how to make my decks better, most
          appreciated.

          I have just won an ebay auction for a box of Deluxe boosters so hopefully
          this will help me to make my decks better.

          the WANI card seems very powerful but then if the group I play in decided
          not to use it I suppose it wouldn't matter about building decks to defeat
          it, would it? unless we played other people or in tournamets of course,
          which seems unlikely at the moment.

          That is unless anyone out there has a few spare WANI's they would like to
          trade?

          regards

          James



          -----Original Message-----
          From: Bruce Mason [mailto:masonb@...]
          Sent: 27 October 2004 23:31
          To: b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [B5CCG] deck construction



          I must admit that it is hard for me to comment on decks that use 'real' card
          because I've been thinking so much about unreal cards. Given that the sets
          were
          about vorlons and rangers it is even harder to remember why this kind of
          deck
          was never massively strong.

          The thing that most leaps out at me is lack of any ability to ever win with
          this
          deck. In a 60 card deck I would run 12 influence/power gaining conflicts.
          Given
          that you seem to have no card drawing in here and minimal power boost then
          it
          might take the best part of 6 hours to get to 20 power. e.g say a game
          lasts 15
          turns (around 2 hours) then you may have a total of 200 influence to spend.
          If
          you want to draw 1/2 your deck then you've got 14 free cards and then the
          rest
          of your cards cost 48 influence. Basically you have around 150 influence to
          spend. 18 of that is used for building so you have around 130 influence.

          So you draw 30 cards, average draw of 4 conflicts in 15 turns. If you build
          to
          10 by turn 5 then you have only 4 conflicts in 10 turns which means you have
          6
          turns of doing nothing.

          Minbar + ranger training + turning one character in a ranger costs you 30
          influence. That's a lot to spend to turn one person into a ranger which has
          essentially done nothing for you except gain a Vorlon Mark and you now have
          100
          influence to spend.

          Obviously I don't know what cards you do or don't have but every B5 deck is
          better with 3 Meditations. You also need a plan B, even if it is just a
          back-up
          copy of SOO. If you are playing with people who have We Are Not Impressed
          you
          can guarantee that you will never win with that deck so you need a lot more
          influence gainers. You might as well stock Commerce Raiding if you have it.

          Your conflicts have diplomacy and military synergy, which is good. I would
          add
          some Annexe Neutral Worlds, etc in as well plus bump up the number of
          fleets.

          Basic 60 card deck dip/mil breakdown I would use.
          20 characters and fleets (include some cheap characters)
          15 conflicts
          21 other cards
          4 cards starting hand.
          To win the game you need to win conflicts, to win conflicts you need
          characters
          and fleets.
          Obvious key other cards are:
          Meditation - efficiency
          Level/Fleets on the Border etc
          You Are Not Ready
          Vorlon Mark gainers
          Chrysalis + triluminary
          That's 15-18 cards already.
          Other 3 cards should be based around winning
          e.g. Minbar, Commerce Raiding, Exploration, Back up agenda.

          Bruce


          >>> curevei@... 27/10/04 9:45 PM >>>

          In a message dated 10/26/2004 1:55:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
          jamescar@... writes:
          It might appear to be made up of only the first 3 sets but that's because I
          just don't have that many cards anymore.

          I never managed to get a booster box of the early B5 sets and had to rely on
          the odd booster or two plus the two-player starter sets.

          I did eventually get a fair amount of cards but I've given alot away to
          friends and family to get them interested in the game and have just kept the
          ones I liked.

          I now don't have any of the cards your talking about such as build
          infrastructure and have been out of the game for so long I can't remember
          what WANI is or having every seen the card.


          I've always found it difficult giving deck advice to people who didn't play
          in a recognizable environment. Even then, metagame differences made some
          advice useless.

          It's fine to not play a "starter" agenda if no one else does either, for
          instance. Same sort of issue with other facets of your opponents' decks.
          In
          the
          absence of any sense of your environment and any sense of what you hope to
          achieve in tuning a deck, advice is as likely to hurt as help. Even making
          a
          deck strictly better can result in turning off your opponents to the game
          since
          their decks may get outclassed. This is, BTW, one of the major benefits of
          tournament play even when a CCG isn't good for tournament play - it produces
          a
          standard environment for discussion.



          I don't mind my decks being slow as the aim of the game when playing with
          friends I believe is to have fun and not to win outright in a few turns.


          B5 has always had a problem with the first few turns being deadly boring.
          There have always been exceptions, whether it was first turn Great Machine
          (for
          the influence) or whether it was "if you don't Taunts and Games, the game's
          essentially over" on the first turn. But, the game usually isn't
          interesting
          until people are at 10 influence. So, you might as well get to 10 influence
          reasonably quickly. Shadows introduced "starter" agenda that started the
          trend
          of speeding up the early game a lot. Amusingly, Kevin both hated speed
          decks
          and introduced ISA, a card that encourages everyone to build quickly to 10
          to
          avoid getting shafted should the ISA form right away (before it shafted them
          later).



          I've found that although you can just sit there and collect influence with
          'AoR' it still does not prevent you getting attack by a more agressive deck
          such as the Narn and if they have a lot of ships and 'Never Again' they can
          soon win.

          I've recently got back into the game and picked up a booster box of Severed
          Dreams, this is the deck I came up with -

          Delenn(Transformer)
          Lennier
          Servants of Order
          Kosh Naranek
          (Jeffery Sinclair)

          Minbar

          Honoured Position
          Test their Mettle x3
          Saber Rattling x2
          Gunboat Diplomacy x3

          Homeworld Fleet
          Third Battle Fleet
          Second Battle Fleet
          Expeditionary Fleet
          First Battle Fleet

          Anla'shok
          Rangers Surveillance

          Hidden Knowledge x2
          Chrysalis
          Early Warning x2
          You are not Ready x3
          Level Playing Field x3
          Who are You x2
          Contact with Vorlons x3

          Ambassador Kosh
          Delenn Transformed
          Entil'zha
          Shakat
          Acolyte
          Rathenn
          Dhaliri
          Durlan
          Minbari Telepath
          Entil'zha Delenn

          Vorlon Enhancement
          Ranger Training
          Stealth Technology
          Triluminary
          Crystal City

          Approval of the Grey x3
          Vorlons Ascendant x3
          Renowned Victory x2

          Let me know what you think.


          What are you looking for?

          Make the deck better? Speed up the opening hand, ditch junk cards like
          Ranger Training, Crystal Cities, Hidden Knowledge, put in a second
          Triluminary
          in
          case the first gets toasted, drop Renowned Victory as being too hard to pull
          off, run x3 Meditation, x3 Not Meant To Be, Carpe Diem, etc. But, I have no
          idea whether this is useful. I've played Ranger Training often enough
          (often
          enough to bitch about how awful it is). I can relate to playing cards/card
          combinations just because they evoke some coolness irrespective of trying to
          win

          the game - I've Vorlon Rescued Mr. Morden before (one of the key events in
          my
          multiplayer CCG experience that led me to realizing that players should put
          a
          good faith effort into winning games or should not be playing CCGs). And, I
          have no idea which cards you found interesting enough to hold onto. I still
          have
          my entire collection, sitting around, doing nothing, with no hope of getting
          decent money for it, woe is me.

          Focus the deck on what it wants to do? Not sure what it wants to do. It's
          obvious that SOO is the winning agenda (which means you should be playing at
          least two copies, if nothing else, you might see Forced Impairment).
          Otherwise
          it lacks focus. Nothing wrong with that, of course.

          Better handle its weaknesses? Given how much the B5 environment has changed
          over the years, it's not at all clear what the weaknesses are. I could
          guess
          that an old school Centauri intrigue deck would annoy you or whatever, but
          if
          you are playing someone's Nightwatch deck or someone's Onslaught deck or
          Election Day or a Not Without a Fight deck, the answers all change. In
          general,

          I'd say forget defending against intrigue and just blow up certain conflicts
          with You Are Not Ready while focusing on making sure you can win your own
          conflicts.

          BTW, how come I'm the one to comment on these things? Is anyone out there
          actually playing? I'm only beginning to remember what a lot of cards do
          because

          I recently moved the deckbuilder to this computer because it was annoying me
          that I couldn't remember given how deeply mentally invested I was in the
          game
          for years.


          "You can poke him with a pillow and kill him."


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




          Babylon 5 CCG Community E-list.
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          Also, check out www.epsilonhex.com for more information about the game!

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          Yahoo! Groups Links










          Babylon 5 CCG Community E-list.
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          If you have problems with the list contact me at jaxb5ranger@....

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        • James Cartwright
          So here s a cool thing. After I posted my decks onto the group and got the comments about what cards I needed and didn t need I went onto Ebay as I thought I d
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 7, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            So here's a cool thing.

            After I posted my decks onto the group and got the comments about what cards
            I needed and didn't need I went onto Ebay as I thought I'd get some more
            cards if I could and get back into playing.

            I'm now getting booster boxes of Deluxe and Great Wars for less than it
            would of originally cost to buy half of one box!

            Regards

            James

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Bruce Mason [mailto:masonb@...]
            Sent: 27 October 2004 23:31
            To: b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [B5CCG] deck construction



            I must admit that it is hard for me to comment on decks that use 'real' card
            because I've been thinking so much about unreal cards. Given that the sets
            were
            about vorlons and rangers it is even harder to remember why this kind of
            deck
            was never massively strong.

            The thing that most leaps out at me is lack of any ability to ever win with
            this
            deck. In a 60 card deck I would run 12 influence/power gaining conflicts.
            Given
            that you seem to have no card drawing in here and minimal power boost then
            it
            might take the best part of 6 hours to get to 20 power. e.g say a game
            lasts 15
            turns (around 2 hours) then you may have a total of 200 influence to spend.
            If
            you want to draw 1/2 your deck then you've got 14 free cards and then the
            rest
            of your cards cost 48 influence. Basically you have around 150 influence to
            spend. 18 of that is used for building so you have around 130 influence.

            So you draw 30 cards, average draw of 4 conflicts in 15 turns. If you build
            to
            10 by turn 5 then you have only 4 conflicts in 10 turns which means you have
            6
            turns of doing nothing.

            Minbar + ranger training + turning one character in a ranger costs you 30
            influence. That's a lot to spend to turn one person into a ranger which has
            essentially done nothing for you except gain a Vorlon Mark and you now have
            100
            influence to spend.

            Obviously I don't know what cards you do or don't have but every B5 deck is
            better with 3 Meditations. You also need a plan B, even if it is just a
            back-up
            copy of SOO. If you are playing with people who have We Are Not Impressed
            you
            can guarantee that you will never win with that deck so you need a lot more
            influence gainers. You might as well stock Commerce Raiding if you have it.

            Your conflicts have diplomacy and military synergy, which is good. I would
            add
            some Annexe Neutral Worlds, etc in as well plus bump up the number of
            fleets.

            Basic 60 card deck dip/mil breakdown I would use.
            20 characters and fleets (include some cheap characters)
            15 conflicts
            21 other cards
            4 cards starting hand.
            To win the game you need to win conflicts, to win conflicts you need
            characters
            and fleets.
            Obvious key other cards are:
            Meditation - efficiency
            Level/Fleets on the Border etc
            You Are Not Ready
            Vorlon Mark gainers
            Chrysalis + triluminary
            That's 15-18 cards already.
            Other 3 cards should be based around winning
            e.g. Minbar, Commerce Raiding, Exploration, Back up agenda.

            Bruce


            >>> curevei@... 27/10/04 9:45 PM >>>

            In a message dated 10/26/2004 1:55:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
            jamescar@... writes:
            It might appear to be made up of only the first 3 sets but that's because I
            just don't have that many cards anymore.

            I never managed to get a booster box of the early B5 sets and had to rely on
            the odd booster or two plus the two-player starter sets.

            I did eventually get a fair amount of cards but I've given alot away to
            friends and family to get them interested in the game and have just kept the
            ones I liked.

            I now don't have any of the cards your talking about such as build
            infrastructure and have been out of the game for so long I can't remember
            what WANI is or having every seen the card.


            I've always found it difficult giving deck advice to people who didn't play
            in a recognizable environment. Even then, metagame differences made some
            advice useless.

            It's fine to not play a "starter" agenda if no one else does either, for
            instance. Same sort of issue with other facets of your opponents' decks.
            In
            the
            absence of any sense of your environment and any sense of what you hope to
            achieve in tuning a deck, advice is as likely to hurt as help. Even making
            a
            deck strictly better can result in turning off your opponents to the game
            since
            their decks may get outclassed. This is, BTW, one of the major benefits of
            tournament play even when a CCG isn't good for tournament play - it produces
            a
            standard environment for discussion.



            I don't mind my decks being slow as the aim of the game when playing with
            friends I believe is to have fun and not to win outright in a few turns.


            B5 has always had a problem with the first few turns being deadly boring.
            There have always been exceptions, whether it was first turn Great Machine
            (for
            the influence) or whether it was "if you don't Taunts and Games, the game's
            essentially over" on the first turn. But, the game usually isn't
            interesting
            until people are at 10 influence. So, you might as well get to 10 influence
            reasonably quickly. Shadows introduced "starter" agenda that started the
            trend
            of speeding up the early game a lot. Amusingly, Kevin both hated speed
            decks
            and introduced ISA, a card that encourages everyone to build quickly to 10
            to
            avoid getting shafted should the ISA form right away (before it shafted them
            later).



            I've found that although you can just sit there and collect influence with
            'AoR' it still does not prevent you getting attack by a more agressive deck
            such as the Narn and if they have a lot of ships and 'Never Again' they can
            soon win.

            I've recently got back into the game and picked up a booster box of Severed
            Dreams, this is the deck I came up with -

            Delenn(Transformer)
            Lennier
            Servants of Order
            Kosh Naranek
            (Jeffery Sinclair)

            Minbar

            Honoured Position
            Test their Mettle x3
            Saber Rattling x2
            Gunboat Diplomacy x3

            Homeworld Fleet
            Third Battle Fleet
            Second Battle Fleet
            Expeditionary Fleet
            First Battle Fleet

            Anla'shok
            Rangers Surveillance

            Hidden Knowledge x2
            Chrysalis
            Early Warning x2
            You are not Ready x3
            Level Playing Field x3
            Who are You x2
            Contact with Vorlons x3

            Ambassador Kosh
            Delenn Transformed
            Entil'zha
            Shakat
            Acolyte
            Rathenn
            Dhaliri
            Durlan
            Minbari Telepath
            Entil'zha Delenn

            Vorlon Enhancement
            Ranger Training
            Stealth Technology
            Triluminary
            Crystal City

            Approval of the Grey x3
            Vorlons Ascendant x3
            Renowned Victory x2

            Let me know what you think.


            What are you looking for?

            Make the deck better? Speed up the opening hand, ditch junk cards like
            Ranger Training, Crystal Cities, Hidden Knowledge, put in a second
            Triluminary
            in
            case the first gets toasted, drop Renowned Victory as being too hard to pull
            off, run x3 Meditation, x3 Not Meant To Be, Carpe Diem, etc. But, I have no
            idea whether this is useful. I've played Ranger Training often enough
            (often
            enough to bitch about how awful it is). I can relate to playing cards/card
            combinations just because they evoke some coolness irrespective of trying to
            win

            the game - I've Vorlon Rescued Mr. Morden before (one of the key events in
            my
            multiplayer CCG experience that led me to realizing that players should put
            a
            good faith effort into winning games or should not be playing CCGs). And, I
            have no idea which cards you found interesting enough to hold onto. I still
            have
            my entire collection, sitting around, doing nothing, with no hope of getting
            decent money for it, woe is me.

            Focus the deck on what it wants to do? Not sure what it wants to do. It's
            obvious that SOO is the winning agenda (which means you should be playing at
            least two copies, if nothing else, you might see Forced Impairment).
            Otherwise
            it lacks focus. Nothing wrong with that, of course.

            Better handle its weaknesses? Given how much the B5 environment has changed
            over the years, it's not at all clear what the weaknesses are. I could
            guess
            that an old school Centauri intrigue deck would annoy you or whatever, but
            if
            you are playing someone's Nightwatch deck or someone's Onslaught deck or
            Election Day or a Not Without a Fight deck, the answers all change. In
            general,

            I'd say forget defending against intrigue and just blow up certain conflicts
            with You Are Not Ready while focusing on making sure you can win your own
            conflicts.

            BTW, how come I'm the one to comment on these things? Is anyone out there
            actually playing? I'm only beginning to remember what a lot of cards do
            because

            I recently moved the deckbuilder to this computer because it was annoying me
            that I couldn't remember given how deeply mentally invested I was in the
            game
            for years.


            "You can poke him with a pillow and kill him."


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            Babylon 5 CCG Community E-list.
            Keep it fun, keep it friendly, enjoy.
            If you have problems with the list contact me at jaxb5ranger@....

            Also, check out www.epsilonhex.com for more information about the game!

            To unsubscribe email:
            b5ccglist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            Yahoo! Groups Links











            Babylon 5 CCG Community E-list.
            Keep it fun, keep it friendly, enjoy.
            If you have problems with the list contact me at jaxb5ranger@....

            Also, check out www.epsilonhex.com for more information about the game!

            To unsubscribe email:
            b5ccglist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            Yahoo! Groups Links
          • David Bate
            ... than it ... Yes it is great for finishing off collects and those deck extra cards. It quite common to pick up booster boxes for the old price of 3-5
            Message 5 of 8 , Nov 8, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              >
              > I'm now getting booster boxes of Deluxe and Great Wars for less
              than it
              > would of originally cost to buy half of one box!
              >

              Yes it is great for finishing off collects and those deck extra
              cards.

              It quite common to pick up booster boxes for the old price of 3-5
              boosters.

              For a collector there comes a time when it is more cost effective to
              buy singles than boosters, but cheap booster boxes help if you don't
              piles of cards left over. But that is what makes ebay great.

              Dave
            • James Cartwright
              I like the cheap boxes as I m not looking to collect just get enough cards to play and build decks with. james ... From: David Bate
              Message 6 of 8 , Nov 8, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                I like the cheap boxes as I'm not looking to collect just get enough cards
                to play and build decks with.

                james

                -----Original Message-----
                From: David Bate [mailto:david_bate@...]
                Sent: 08 November 2004 09:56
                To: b5ccglist@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [B5CCG] deck construction





                >
                > I'm now getting booster boxes of Deluxe and Great Wars for less
                than it
                > would of originally cost to buy half of one box!
                >

                Yes it is great for finishing off collects and those deck extra
                cards.

                It quite common to pick up booster boxes for the old price of 3-5
                boosters.

                For a collector there comes a time when it is more cost effective to
                buy singles than boosters, but cheap booster boxes help if you don't
                piles of cards left over. But that is what makes ebay great.

                Dave






                Babylon 5 CCG Community E-list.
                Keep it fun, keep it friendly, enjoy.
                If you have problems with the list contact me at jaxb5ranger@....

                Also, check out www.epsilonhex.com for more information about the game!

                To unsubscribe email:
                b5ccglist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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