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Ma: Chichen Itza Capstone and Fresco

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  • d. m. urquidi
    ... Just a note to say that the capstone from the temple of the owl, seems to be celestial not land based. There is an ahaw date up in the upper left hand
    Message 1 of 4 , Feb 1, 2002
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      Sharon:
      > One is of a painted capstone supposedly from
      > Chichen Itza's Temple of the Owl showing perhaps
      > Queztalcoatl emerging from within a cenote from which
      > cacao pods suspend, with a offering of some sort.

      Just a note to say that the capstone from the temple of the owl,
      seems to be celestial not land based. There is an ahaw date up
      in the upper left hand corner and the side elements appear to be
      similar to Pacal's tomb border of planets. The only constellation
      that is that square is Ophiuchus, just below Cygnus and the
      Summer Triangle. In Quatemala, Ophiuchus seems to be the serpent
      holder (one long one) as in Peru, the Inca also had a similar
      (pointed hat serpent holder with one serpent in each hand.) Here
      the serpent has a headdress similar to the Moon goddess of the
      Aztec Moon Disk (the two crayons) which also appears in the Tello
      de Chavin de Huantar... Here Quetzalcoat has two serpent forms
      one under each arm. Are them the serpents same as the the Inca
      style?

      Sorry I don't know if they exist or not, nor do I know if this
      drawing is real or not. It has a lot of Inca earmarks which is odd.

      D. M. Urquidi
      dmu Ink
      P. O. Box 49485
      Austin, Texas 78765-9485
      http://www.mayalords.org
      http://home.talkcity.com/LibraryDr/deamaya/charles.html

      Copyright � AZTLAN <AZTLAN@...> 2002.
      All rights reserved.
    • Bruce Rogers
      Sharon, The fresco - or what s left of it - it s very, very, very faded - is still painted on the back (east) wall of the inner-most room in the Templo de
      Message 2 of 4 , Feb 1, 2002
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        Sharon,

        The fresco - or what's left of it - it's very, very, very faded -
        is still painted on the back (east) wall of the inner-most room
        in the Templo de Jaguars , the "upstairs" part of the SE corner
        of the Great Ballcourt. According to my impeachable sources, the
        scene is Teotihuacano-aligned military folks scouting a city (not
        sure just which city) for invasion from boats on an adjacent
        river - which rules out Chichen itself of course. Note the
        warriors are wearing cotton armor and carrying small hide/wood
        shields, darts & atlatls in over-the-shoulder quivers, and
        obsidian bladed war clubs whose name escapes me at the moment.

        The Templo of the Owls is directly at the current "end" of the
        fairly stabilized & brushed (cleared) sacbe running past the west
        side of Las Monjas - the Nunnery - in South Chichen. The
        capstone I'm not sure of. When I visited that part of Chichen -
        erroneously termed in most popular guidebooks as "Old Chichen",
        there was a linear, NW-SE scatter of blocks a few meters long &
        perhaps 1 - 2 m high under a small acacia tree at what we took to
        be the ruins of the Templo of the Owls. We found the bas relief
        of the "Owl" and other stuff, but I can't say I remember seeing
        anything similar to your drawing of the capstone.

        The drawing is interesting though. Showing cacao pods hung from
        the edges of the cenote certainly is unique as is the "flying"
        cacao pods and donuts (Krispy Kreams? Ear spools?) above the god's
        head. The offering looks a lot like a shallow dish of tamales
        that have gourds filled with drink (cacao? Xibantun [=mead?])
        balanced on them.

        If I had the time right now (& I don't) it might be worth seeing
        if the glyphs arching over the god in the scaffold are
        translatable and actually mean anything or if they're just
        glyphoids. There's enough there to suggest that the glyphs may
        just be real live glyphs. The symbols in the uprights appear to
        my semi-trained weak eyes to be both glyphs and some designs
        similar to some I vaguely remember seeing carved on the alfardas
        of the stairs around the Templo of the Bearded Men at the NE end
        of the Great Ballcourt, particularly the right column middle
        glyph(?). That particular glyph (?) may also be represented on
        the columns of the Lower ("Smiling") Jaguar Temple
        below the mural-holding upper one.

        Cheers,

        Bruce Rogers, earth sceintist on a good day.

        Copyright � AZTLAN <AZTLAN@...> 2002.
        All rights reserved.
      • jpastore@nettaxi.com
        Is this the same fresco whose river shows salt-water manta rays and such below canoes? The rest of your description sounds like the same mural which I had
        Message 3 of 4 , Feb 4, 2002
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          Is this the same fresco whose "river" shows salt-water manta rays
          and such below canoes?

          The rest of your description sounds like the same mural which I
          had considered two nearly parallel incursions by an alliance of
          Itzae-Toltecs, landside, and Putan-Toltecs seaside (-or rather
          gulfside).

          ???

          Cheers,
          John Pastore
          Atlanta, Ga.

          Copyright � AZTLAN <AZTLAN@...> 2002.
          All rights reserved.
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