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Re: child-protection law sets dangerous precedent

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  • thekoba@aztecfreenet.org
    ... Dear Eric, I am particularly reminded of the case of Manuel Noriega, president of Panama. I was baffled that there wasn t a single juror who said, I
    Message 1 of 4 , Feb 22, 2004
      >There are lots of precedents for this - I mean where
      >they sneak really harmful and dangerous legislation in
      >under cover of defending little old ladies and
      >innocent children.

      Dear Eric,

      I am particularly reminded of the case of Manuel Noriega,
      president of Panama. I was baffled that there wasn't
      a single juror who said, "I can't vote to convict
      someone of something he did in a foreign country, and
      if I vote to convict him, however guilty he is, that
      would only encourage other presidents or even this one
      to invade other countries to kidnap people they don't
      like." There the justification for the masses was
      fighting the international narcotics trade. Of course
      Noriega's real crime was disobeying the orders of Bush
      the elder. I suppose any jurors who said such things
      were excluded during voir dire, but one would think the
      defense at least would have made a major case about
      this before the media: that a United States court has
      no jurisdiction over acts committed in Panama.

      >Also, capitalism produces and reproduces egregious
      >exploitation of millions by the few, and the sex trade
      >is one manifestation of the exploitative, unequal
      >relations between the imperial center and the Third
      >World periphery. (And the complex of mental traits
      >that the exploitative capitalist system produces in
      >people living under it.)
      >
      >I'm not saying that we must wait for a world socialist
      >revolution to do anything about the sex-trade, but
      >it's unrealistic to think that purely punitive
      >measures on individuals will eliminate a problem that
      >springs from the basic social relations engendered by
      >global capitalism.

      In a sense sex tourism is the free market taken to its
      logical conclusion, and it is the point that MIM rather
      clumsily tries to make when it says, "All sex is rape."
      Sure some third world children are forced into
      prostitution by their parents or others, but others do it
      "consentually" because they have no other way of earning
      a living or because they have the opportunity to earn
      substantially more than they could by other means
      (begging, stealing, working in sweatshops).

      >There's something about the liberal mindset that they
      >want to look at social problems as if they were a
      >matter of individual morality. I guess it's a way for
      >reformers to "let off steam" without challenging the
      >system.
      >
      >But the result is that they frequently mistake the
      >symptom for the cause of a problem. Instead of curing
      >smallpox, they invent better makeup to hide the
      >embarrassment of pustules (and to keep other people
      >from having to look at them).

      And the problem with that, as with the disease, is that
      disguising it makes it easier to spread, as people are
      less likely to avoid it :-) In this case what is in
      fact a tool for spreading imperialism (extending the
      jurisdiction of American laws over the globe) is made to
      look like real justice (punishing those who abuse children).
      That is why I usually consider liberals to be more
      dangerous enemies than honest reactionaries.

      Comradely,

      Kevin

      --
      "Money is the jealous god of Israel before whom no other god may exist...The
      bill of exchange is the actual god of the Jew."

      --Karl Marx, <On the Jewish Question>, 1843
    • mike ross
      damn kevin, you almost sound like a libertarian :) mike ... From: thekoba@aztecfreenet.org Sent: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 10:32:53 -0700 (MST) To:
      Message 2 of 4 , Feb 23, 2004
        damn kevin,

        you almost sound like a libertarian :)

        mike


        ---- Begin Original Message ----

        From: thekoba@...
        Sent: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 10:32:53 -0700 (MST)
        To: azsecularhumanists@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [azsecularhumanists] child-protection law sets dangerous
        precedent




           ================= Begin forwarded message =================
           
           Letters to the Editor
           The Arizona Republic
           Phoenix AZ
           opinions@...
           
           Dear Editor:
           
           Child prostitution and sex tourism are truly monstrous evils,
        and I, as all
           decent people, oppose them.  The recent law allowing prosecution
        in the USA
           of anyone who engages in this conduct in foreign countries,
        however, sets
           a dangerous precendent ("Kid Prostitution Crackdown", page A21,
        2/24/04).
           With the exception of admiralty law applicable to the high seas,
        it is
           generally recognised that a country's laws stop at its
        borders.  It is
           tempting to conclude that any means are justified to fight child
        prostitution
           and sex tourism, but to presume to extend the jurisdiction of
        American law
           over the whole world opens a Pandora's box that can be used to
        justify any
           attack on a foreign country's sovereignty or the kidnapping of
        any foreigner
           who has done something, however legal in his own country, which
        displeases
           the American government.  People fighting for the liberation of
        their own
           country could be branded "members of a terrorist group" and
        tried in the USA.
           Countries whose officials try to keep imperialist propaganda out
        could have
           their officials kidnapped and tried in the USA for "violating
        the civil
           rights" of mercenary agitators of imperialism.  Those who
        ultimately benefit
           will be the imperialists who want to impose world government,
        and those who
           will suffer will be ordinary Americans when the payback comes
        home in far
           greater measure than it did on 11 September 2001.  
           
           Sincerely,
           
           Kevin Walsh
           

           
           

        --
        "Money is the jealous god of Israel before whom no other god may
        exist...The
        bill of exchange is the actual god of the Jew."

        --Karl Marx, <On the Jewish Question>, 1843


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      • mike ross
        come on noriega didnt even get a fair trial and it would have been inpossible for the goons in the us government to give him one. he was railroaded by the us
        Message 3 of 4 , Feb 23, 2004
          come on noriega didnt even get a fair trial
          and it would have been inpossible for the
          goons in the us government to give him one.
          he was railroaded by the us government for
          stuff that never happened in the USA.

          just as bush and the american rulers will
          railroad saddam in whatever trial our
          puppet government in iraq puts on. and if
          they ever catch bin laden he will also be
          railroaded too by the american government.

          sure saddam, and bin laden are criminals
          by american standards but neigher has
          every committed crimes in american.

          but of course thats the double standard
          put out by the american government. do
          as we say or we will kill you. while
          we routinely break american law, and
          international law when we invade countries
          like iraq.


          mike



          ---- Begin Original Message ----

          From: thekoba@...
          Sent: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 18:02:25 -0700 (MST)
          To: nebukhadhnasar@...
          CC: alloush44@..., cbpeek@...,
          nsubufa@...,llnicol@..., lilyasirah@...,
          proton@...,vik777@...,
          kaiteki56zona8moshi5@...,azsecularhumanists@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [azsecularhumanists] Re: child-protection law sets
          dangerous precedent




          >There are lots of precedents for this - I mean where
          >they sneak really harmful and dangerous legislation in
          >under cover of defending little old ladies and
          >innocent children.

          Dear Eric,

          I am particularly reminded of the case of Manuel Noriega,
          president of Panama.  I was baffled that there wasn't
          a single juror who said, "I can't vote to convict
          someone of something he did in a foreign country, and
          if I vote to convict him, however guilty he is, that
          would only encourage other presidents or even this one
          to invade other countries to kidnap people they don't
          like."  There the justification for the masses was
          fighting the international narcotics trade.  Of course
          Noriega's real crime was disobeying the orders of Bush
          the elder.  I suppose any jurors who said such things
          were excluded during voir dire, but one would think the
          defense at least would have made a major case about
          this before the media:  that a United States court has
          no jurisdiction over acts committed in Panama.

          >Also, capitalism produces and reproduces egregious
          >exploitation of millions by the few, and the sex trade
          >is one manifestation of the exploitative, unequal
          >relations between the imperial center and the Third
          >World periphery. (And the complex of mental traits
          >that the exploitative capitalist system produces in
          >people living under it.)
          >
          >I'm not saying that we must wait for a world socialist
          >revolution to do anything about the sex-trade, but
          >it's unrealistic to think that purely punitive
          >measures on individuals will eliminate a problem that
          >springs from the basic social relations engendered by
          >global capitalism.

          In a sense sex tourism is the free market taken to its
          logical conclusion, and it is the point that MIM rather
          clumsily tries to make when it says, "All sex is rape."
          Sure some third world children are forced into
          prostitution by their parents or others, but others do it
          "consentually" because they have no other way of earning
          a living or because they have the opportunity to earn
          substantially more than they could by other means
          (begging, stealing, working in sweatshops).  

          >There's something about the liberal mindset that they
          >want to look at social problems as if they were a
          >matter of individual morality. I guess it's a way for
          >reformers to "let off steam" without challenging the
          >system.
          >
          >But the result is that they frequently mistake the
          >symptom for the cause of a problem.  Instead of curing
          >smallpox, they invent better makeup to hide the
          >embarrassment of pustules (and to keep other people
          >from having to look at them).

          And the problem with that, as with the disease, is that
          disguising it makes it easier to spread, as people are
          less likely to avoid it :-)  In this case what is in
          fact a tool for spreading imperialism (extending the
          jurisdiction of American laws over the globe) is made to
          look like real justice (punishing those who abuse children).
          That is why I usually consider liberals to be more
          dangerous enemies than honest reactionaries.

          Comradely,

          Kevin

          --
          "Money is the jealous god of Israel before whom no other god may
          exist...The
          bill of exchange is the actual god of the Jew."

          --Karl Marx, <On the Jewish Question>, 1843


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          ~-->
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          Lexmark
          Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US &
          Canada.
          http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
          http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/VkWolB/TM
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          Yahoo! Groups Links







          ---- End Original Message ----




          When the government fears the people,
          that is LIBERTY. When people fear the
          government, that is TYRANNY.

          Thomas Jefferson
          Premium Accounts for Legal Professionals
          http://1stcounsel.com/
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