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child-protection law sets dangerous precedent

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  • thekoba@aztecfreenet.org
    ================= Begin forwarded message ================= Letters to the Editor The Arizona Republic Phoenix AZ opinions@arizonarepublic.com Dear Editor:
    Message 1 of 4 , Feb 22, 2004
      ================= Begin forwarded message =================

      Letters to the Editor
      The Arizona Republic
      Phoenix AZ
      opinions@...

      Dear Editor:

      Child prostitution and sex tourism are truly monstrous evils, and I, as all
      decent people, oppose them. The recent law allowing prosecution in the USA
      of anyone who engages in this conduct in foreign countries, however, sets
      a dangerous precendent ("Kid Prostitution Crackdown", page A21, 2/24/04).
      With the exception of admiralty law applicable to the high seas, it is
      generally recognised that a country's laws stop at its borders. It is
      tempting to conclude that any means are justified to fight child prostitution
      and sex tourism, but to presume to extend the jurisdiction of American law
      over the whole world opens a Pandora's box that can be used to justify any
      attack on a foreign country's sovereignty or the kidnapping of any foreigner
      who has done something, however legal in his own country, which displeases
      the American government. People fighting for the liberation of their own
      country could be branded "members of a terrorist group" and tried in the USA.
      Countries whose officials try to keep imperialist propaganda out could have
      their officials kidnapped and tried in the USA for "violating the civil
      rights" of mercenary agitators of imperialism. Those who ultimately benefit
      will be the imperialists who want to impose world government, and those who
      will suffer will be ordinary Americans when the payback comes home in far
      greater measure than it did on 11 September 2001.

      Sincerely,

      Kevin Walsh





      --
      "Money is the jealous god of Israel before whom no other god may exist...The
      bill of exchange is the actual god of the Jew."

      --Karl Marx, <On the Jewish Question>, 1843
    • thekoba@aztecfreenet.org
      ... Dear Eric, I am particularly reminded of the case of Manuel Noriega, president of Panama. I was baffled that there wasn t a single juror who said, I
      Message 2 of 4 , Feb 22, 2004
        >There are lots of precedents for this - I mean where
        >they sneak really harmful and dangerous legislation in
        >under cover of defending little old ladies and
        >innocent children.

        Dear Eric,

        I am particularly reminded of the case of Manuel Noriega,
        president of Panama. I was baffled that there wasn't
        a single juror who said, "I can't vote to convict
        someone of something he did in a foreign country, and
        if I vote to convict him, however guilty he is, that
        would only encourage other presidents or even this one
        to invade other countries to kidnap people they don't
        like." There the justification for the masses was
        fighting the international narcotics trade. Of course
        Noriega's real crime was disobeying the orders of Bush
        the elder. I suppose any jurors who said such things
        were excluded during voir dire, but one would think the
        defense at least would have made a major case about
        this before the media: that a United States court has
        no jurisdiction over acts committed in Panama.

        >Also, capitalism produces and reproduces egregious
        >exploitation of millions by the few, and the sex trade
        >is one manifestation of the exploitative, unequal
        >relations between the imperial center and the Third
        >World periphery. (And the complex of mental traits
        >that the exploitative capitalist system produces in
        >people living under it.)
        >
        >I'm not saying that we must wait for a world socialist
        >revolution to do anything about the sex-trade, but
        >it's unrealistic to think that purely punitive
        >measures on individuals will eliminate a problem that
        >springs from the basic social relations engendered by
        >global capitalism.

        In a sense sex tourism is the free market taken to its
        logical conclusion, and it is the point that MIM rather
        clumsily tries to make when it says, "All sex is rape."
        Sure some third world children are forced into
        prostitution by their parents or others, but others do it
        "consentually" because they have no other way of earning
        a living or because they have the opportunity to earn
        substantially more than they could by other means
        (begging, stealing, working in sweatshops).

        >There's something about the liberal mindset that they
        >want to look at social problems as if they were a
        >matter of individual morality. I guess it's a way for
        >reformers to "let off steam" without challenging the
        >system.
        >
        >But the result is that they frequently mistake the
        >symptom for the cause of a problem. Instead of curing
        >smallpox, they invent better makeup to hide the
        >embarrassment of pustules (and to keep other people
        >from having to look at them).

        And the problem with that, as with the disease, is that
        disguising it makes it easier to spread, as people are
        less likely to avoid it :-) In this case what is in
        fact a tool for spreading imperialism (extending the
        jurisdiction of American laws over the globe) is made to
        look like real justice (punishing those who abuse children).
        That is why I usually consider liberals to be more
        dangerous enemies than honest reactionaries.

        Comradely,

        Kevin

        --
        "Money is the jealous god of Israel before whom no other god may exist...The
        bill of exchange is the actual god of the Jew."

        --Karl Marx, <On the Jewish Question>, 1843
      • mike ross
        damn kevin, you almost sound like a libertarian :) mike ... From: thekoba@aztecfreenet.org Sent: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 10:32:53 -0700 (MST) To:
        Message 3 of 4 , Feb 23, 2004
          damn kevin,

          you almost sound like a libertarian :)

          mike


          ---- Begin Original Message ----

          From: thekoba@...
          Sent: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 10:32:53 -0700 (MST)
          To: azsecularhumanists@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [azsecularhumanists] child-protection law sets dangerous
          precedent




             ================= Begin forwarded message =================
             
             Letters to the Editor
             The Arizona Republic
             Phoenix AZ
             opinions@...
             
             Dear Editor:
             
             Child prostitution and sex tourism are truly monstrous evils,
          and I, as all
             decent people, oppose them.  The recent law allowing prosecution
          in the USA
             of anyone who engages in this conduct in foreign countries,
          however, sets
             a dangerous precendent ("Kid Prostitution Crackdown", page A21,
          2/24/04).
             With the exception of admiralty law applicable to the high seas,
          it is
             generally recognised that a country's laws stop at its
          borders.  It is
             tempting to conclude that any means are justified to fight child
          prostitution
             and sex tourism, but to presume to extend the jurisdiction of
          American law
             over the whole world opens a Pandora's box that can be used to
          justify any
             attack on a foreign country's sovereignty or the kidnapping of
          any foreigner
             who has done something, however legal in his own country, which
          displeases
             the American government.  People fighting for the liberation of
          their own
             country could be branded "members of a terrorist group" and
          tried in the USA.
             Countries whose officials try to keep imperialist propaganda out
          could have
             their officials kidnapped and tried in the USA for "violating
          the civil
             rights" of mercenary agitators of imperialism.  Those who
          ultimately benefit
             will be the imperialists who want to impose world government,
          and those who
             will suffer will be ordinary Americans when the payback comes
          home in far
             greater measure than it did on 11 September 2001.  
             
             Sincerely,
             
             Kevin Walsh
             

             
             

          --
          "Money is the jealous god of Israel before whom no other god may
          exist...The
          bill of exchange is the actual god of the Jew."

          --Karl Marx, <On the Jewish Question>, 1843


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          ---- End Original Message ----




          When the government fears the people,
          that is LIBERTY. When people fear the
          government, that is TYRANNY.

          Thomas Jefferson
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        • mike ross
          come on noriega didnt even get a fair trial and it would have been inpossible for the goons in the us government to give him one. he was railroaded by the us
          Message 4 of 4 , Feb 23, 2004
            come on noriega didnt even get a fair trial
            and it would have been inpossible for the
            goons in the us government to give him one.
            he was railroaded by the us government for
            stuff that never happened in the USA.

            just as bush and the american rulers will
            railroad saddam in whatever trial our
            puppet government in iraq puts on. and if
            they ever catch bin laden he will also be
            railroaded too by the american government.

            sure saddam, and bin laden are criminals
            by american standards but neigher has
            every committed crimes in american.

            but of course thats the double standard
            put out by the american government. do
            as we say or we will kill you. while
            we routinely break american law, and
            international law when we invade countries
            like iraq.


            mike



            ---- Begin Original Message ----

            From: thekoba@...
            Sent: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 18:02:25 -0700 (MST)
            To: nebukhadhnasar@...
            CC: alloush44@..., cbpeek@...,
            nsubufa@...,llnicol@..., lilyasirah@...,
            proton@...,vik777@...,
            kaiteki56zona8moshi5@...,azsecularhumanists@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [azsecularhumanists] Re: child-protection law sets
            dangerous precedent




            >There are lots of precedents for this - I mean where
            >they sneak really harmful and dangerous legislation in
            >under cover of defending little old ladies and
            >innocent children.

            Dear Eric,

            I am particularly reminded of the case of Manuel Noriega,
            president of Panama.  I was baffled that there wasn't
            a single juror who said, "I can't vote to convict
            someone of something he did in a foreign country, and
            if I vote to convict him, however guilty he is, that
            would only encourage other presidents or even this one
            to invade other countries to kidnap people they don't
            like."  There the justification for the masses was
            fighting the international narcotics trade.  Of course
            Noriega's real crime was disobeying the orders of Bush
            the elder.  I suppose any jurors who said such things
            were excluded during voir dire, but one would think the
            defense at least would have made a major case about
            this before the media:  that a United States court has
            no jurisdiction over acts committed in Panama.

            >Also, capitalism produces and reproduces egregious
            >exploitation of millions by the few, and the sex trade
            >is one manifestation of the exploitative, unequal
            >relations between the imperial center and the Third
            >World periphery. (And the complex of mental traits
            >that the exploitative capitalist system produces in
            >people living under it.)
            >
            >I'm not saying that we must wait for a world socialist
            >revolution to do anything about the sex-trade, but
            >it's unrealistic to think that purely punitive
            >measures on individuals will eliminate a problem that
            >springs from the basic social relations engendered by
            >global capitalism.

            In a sense sex tourism is the free market taken to its
            logical conclusion, and it is the point that MIM rather
            clumsily tries to make when it says, "All sex is rape."
            Sure some third world children are forced into
            prostitution by their parents or others, but others do it
            "consentually" because they have no other way of earning
            a living or because they have the opportunity to earn
            substantially more than they could by other means
            (begging, stealing, working in sweatshops).  

            >There's something about the liberal mindset that they
            >want to look at social problems as if they were a
            >matter of individual morality. I guess it's a way for
            >reformers to "let off steam" without challenging the
            >system.
            >
            >But the result is that they frequently mistake the
            >symptom for the cause of a problem.  Instead of curing
            >smallpox, they invent better makeup to hide the
            >embarrassment of pustules (and to keep other people
            >from having to look at them).

            And the problem with that, as with the disease, is that
            disguising it makes it easier to spread, as people are
            less likely to avoid it :-)  In this case what is in
            fact a tool for spreading imperialism (extending the
            jurisdiction of American laws over the globe) is made to
            look like real justice (punishing those who abuse children).
            That is why I usually consider liberals to be more
            dangerous enemies than honest reactionaries.

            Comradely,

            Kevin

            --
            "Money is the jealous god of Israel before whom no other god may
            exist...The
            bill of exchange is the actual god of the Jew."

            --Karl Marx, <On the Jewish Question>, 1843


            ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------
            ~-->
            Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or
            Lexmark
            Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US &
            Canada.
            http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
            http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/VkWolB/TM
            ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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            Yahoo! Groups Links







            ---- End Original Message ----




            When the government fears the people,
            that is LIBERTY. When people fear the
            government, that is TYRANNY.

            Thomas Jefferson
            Premium Accounts for Legal Professionals
            http://1stcounsel.com/
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