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more on Christian Identity

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  • thekoba@aztecfreenet.org
    ... Dear Eric, Not in so many words. He did say that we have no business fighting the government s wars and confessed to having been duped by the government
    Message 1 of 3 , Nov 11, 2003
      >
      >Dear Kevin,
      >
      >This is a very interesting account. It appears that
      >the Aryans are far less violent and threatening than
      >the establishment media would have one believe, and
      >far less violent and threatening than the Zionist thug
      >groups. The latter probably are particularly arrogant
      >because they are able to cooperate with police forces,
      >either directly or via their links to Tel Aviv.
      >
      >It sounds like Butler limited his comments to
      >religious mythology and behavioral advice, though. It
      >seems that he didn't make any reference to the Iraq
      >war or other current political issues, and so forth?

      Dear Eric,

      Not in so many words. He did say that we have no
      business fighting the government's wars and confessed
      to having been duped by the government into fighting
      on the wrong side in 1942.

      >This seems to be a common problem with rightwing
      >groups. They take useful and even good stances on the
      >issue of Jewish supremacist activity, but then put
      >very little emphasis on that compared with their other
      >concerns, such as, in this case, picking fights with
      >Black bar managers,

      I don't understand why McManus wanted to encourage
      people to go into bars and get drunk anyway. He had
      been boasting about the amount of liquor he consumed.
      Drunkenness only wastes Aryan money, destroys Aryan
      brain cells, wastes Aryan time, and causes Aryans to
      lose their judgment and reasoning abilities. Fighting
      for dominance in some bar is also of no relevance to
      the real struggle. They would do better to spend their
      time soberly fighting against the war in Iraq and against
      illegal immigration. I hold no higher view of "Aryan"
      organisations that like to poison themselves with
      methamphetamine.

      >or in Butler's case, trying to
      >bring Jewish tribal biblical lore into line with a
      >"racial" hostility to Jews.
      >
      >The latter, in particular is interesting.
      >
      >I suppose, on the ideological level, this is really a
      >curious offshoot of southern (American) Protestantism
      >which is widely known for its intense love for the
      >goriest and most primitive tales of the Old Testament
      >and also for a racism that at one time split the
      >Baptists into two different branches over the slavery
      >issue.
      >
      >Some Protestants seem to reconcile this contradiction
      >by drawing on the deeply racist doctrines of the
      >Hebrews, but then saying that after Jesus, God's
      >supposed special covenant passed from the Jews to the
      >Christians, whom, through historical myopia, they
      >identify as Europeans.
      >
      >Butler, a product of this conservative south, probably
      >was raised to believe in the literal word of the Old
      >Testament, but because he holds very strong views on
      >race, he has also has come to the conclusion that Jews
      >are an alien race who could never have enjoyed God's
      >special covenant.

      I was not aware Butler was a Southerner. He didn't sound
      like one. Then again he's an old man, and he's lived in
      Idaho for a long time, so I suppose his speech patterns
      may have changed.

      >That is, he wanted to be a
      >consistent White racist but couldn't reconcile that
      >with continued faith in the Old Testament. So he
      >solves the issue by denying that the Hebrews had
      >anything to do with the Old Testament.
      >
      >This is the flip side, I suppose, of the doctrines of
      >the Mormons and other Protestant spin offs that
      >Christianity is a new Judaism and that (so the Mormons
      >maintain, I believe) they are all somehow descended
      >from the ancient 12 tribes of Jews.

      I'm not sure the Mormons believe that THEY are
      descended from those tribes, but the Book of Mormon
      describes the mythical journey of a man and his
      family from one of those tribes from Jerusalem to
      the Americas just before the sack of Jerusalem in
      586 BCE. Supposedly these descendants divided into
      the Nephites, who obeyed God's word, and the Lamanites,
      who were punished for disobedience by "a curse of
      blackness of the skin" (2 Nephi 5:20-22, the Book of
      Mormon). Supposedly the Nephites turned away from
      God and were exterminated by the Lamanites sometime
      in the fifth century CE. The Lamanites, supposedly,
      were the ancestors of the American Indians, so the
      Mormons believe that the American Indians are
      descendants of the tribe of Judah, albeit afflicted
      of a "curse of blackness of skin".

      >In other words, for those who seem compelled to mix
      >race with the religious indoctrination they received
      >as children, the Bible writers and they themselves
      >must all be Aryan (Butler and AN), or else they must
      >all be Jews (the Mormons, and in a "spritual sense"
      >the Baptists).
      >
      >From the standpoint of social class, I suppose this
      >goes back to the blackout that has been imposed in the
      >US on any form of genuine class ideology. At least
      >since 1917 every generation of Americans was taught
      >that Communism was "out to get them" and to stay away
      >from it. And of course you had to be pretty
      >intellectual to familiarize yourself with Marxist
      >thought. Then too, Zionist Jewish intellectual
      >"communists" who seem to have heavily dominated the
      >Communist Party at the start of the Cold War probably
      >helped to drive the reactionaries' point that "Commies
      >are un-American" home.
      >
      >So the masses were left to marinate in the silly old
      >ideologies of the worst representatives of mankind's
      >primitive age, and therefore protest against social
      >injustice comes forth in the guise of David Koresh's
      >"Davidian" sect that flew a Star of David flag, or in
      >the form of historical nonsense of Butler who proudly
      >insists that the bloody drivel of the Old Testament is
      >part of his Aryan heritage.
      >
      >This is going to be a long battle.

      Yes, Aryan Nations does use a lot of ancient Hebrew.
      One of their emblems even has a star of David, so they
      consider the star of David and the swastika to both be
      Aryan symbols and in no way incompatable. They refer
      to God as "Yh'wh" in a Roman alphabet version of the
      ancient Hebrew "I am who am".

      I suppose there's a strong parallel between the role of
      Christian Identity doctrine/ideology in North America
      and Islamic fundamentalism in the Muslim countries,
      with the major exception that Christian Identity isn't
      (for the time being anyway) nearly as popular here as
      Islamic fundamentalism there. In both cases, it is a
      religious expression of social protest to fill a vacuum
      posed by a lack of exposure to Marxism-Leninism and
      dialectical materialism or by the discredit of same in
      the view of the masses.

      Comradely,

      Kevin
    • thekoba@aztecfreenet.org
      ... Dear Eric, Definitely it is characteristic of the remnants and descendants of the peasant class, such as it is in the USA, and this class has been
      Message 2 of 3 , Nov 11, 2003
        >
        >Dear Kevin,
        >
        >I guess I just assumed that Butler was a southerner
        >because in my personal experience strong devotion to
        >Old Testament lore seems to be more prevalent in the
        >South. In fact, however, it might be characteristic
        >of most of rural America.

        Dear Eric,

        Definitely it is characteristic of the remnants and
        descendants of the peasant class, such as it is in the
        USA, and this class has been strongest in the South.

        >As regards McManus' enthusiasm for bar fights,
        >apparently they are not inclined to follow Hitler and
        >abstain from alcohol. Hitler never made his personal
        >dietary habits a required or even recommended practice
        >for Germans as a whole, yet in this case, one would
        >think that reason coupled with Hitler's example might
        >encouraged the Aryan Nation group to channel their
        >energy in other directions.

        I'm sure Hitler was practical enough to understand that
        he was not going to convert the German people to
        vegetarianism :-) It's also interesting that, as much as
        Hitler hated hunting and hunters, he signed into law
        the 1938 revision of the gun law that made it easier for
        Germans to obtain hunting weapons and that made a hunting
        license function as a de facto concealed weapons permit.

        >But then, I suppose, this is less a rational strategic
        >response to repression and other social pressures, and
        >more of an "instinctive," or "knee jerk" reaction.

        Yes, and it's definitely the wrong reaction. I'm sure
        the Jews would much rather have us spend our free time
        acting like drunken fools in bars than soberly opposing
        them.

        >It's too bad that Butler didn't raise the Iraq war
        >issue, though. That is a vitally important issue now
        >and also one on which they could probably make some
        >points since there is a growing sense that Bush duped
        >the nation into getting into Iraq.
        >
        >On the Mormons, perhaps they don't think they are
        >descendants of the 12 tribes, but they all seem to go
        >in for genealogy, and those whom I know to have
        >"succeeded in tracing their ancestry" all seem to
        >trace their ancestry back to some Biblical patriarch.
        >Again, that's based on my personal experience of some
        >Mormons, though. Perhaps not all do.
        >
        >The Christian identity stuff and Islamic
        >fundamentalism are indeed parallels, I think. Of
        >course the US is an imperialist nation, so that throws
        >an element of confusion into the mix right away, since
        >for many people "identity" is equated with aggressive
        >wars against "others."

        Yes, that is definitely a factor I should have
        included. Another important difference is that
        you don't have the racial animosity among Islamic
        fundamentalists. Imperialism definitely adds that
        to the mix.

        >But for those willing or interested in resistance,
        >Christian identity is one vehicle for it. Are you
        >familiar with the new Mel Gibson film in the making.

        Yes, I thought I sent you my comments on that
        controversy.

        >A great hullaballoo is being raised about it simply
        >because Gibson is trying to follow the accounts in the
        >New Testament which, I believe, basically blame the
        >Jews for Christ's conviction. Jewish groups are
        >saying that this is anti-Semitic.

        As I said, I feel silly discussing questions of fact
        about events two millenia ago, but if we assume that
        the depiction in the Bible is correct, I fail to see
        how it would apply to Jews today. I'm sure our Aryan
        ancestors 2000 years ago in northern Europe did some
        things that we would think extremely uncouth at best,
        but no one would say it reflects upon us (except the
        occasional Jew who likes to gloat at how much older
        his "civilisation" is than ours).

        >In Cincinnati there were several Catholics of, I
        >guess, the old line or whatever it's called who
        >denounce the creeping "Free Masonry" in Catholic
        >church architecture and liturgy, etc.

        I hadn't heard about this, but it's definitely true
        that before the Second Vatican Council, Catholics
        were forbidden from having anything to do with the
        Freemasons. I do remember attending Tom Ceranski's
        wedding in a Catholic Church in central Phoenix
        (St. Mary's Basilica). I was struck by the lack of
        graven images. Whoever heard of a Catholic church
        without graven images?! Maybe that's one of the
        reasons for this group's complaints.

        >A variant on that was those people who analyzed the
        >symbols on the back of the dollar bill, pointing to
        >the pyramid and eye as Masonic symbols and maintaining
        >that the eagle is in fact a Masonic phoenix. Just
        >what difference it makes for us masses whether the
        >dollar bill features Masonic, patriotic, or other
        >symbols is not clear to me, except that I suppose if
        >they are Masonic symbols it indicates the presence of
        >a lot of Masons in positions of power when the bill
        >was designed.

        Well it's no secret that many of the founding fathers
        were Masons, including both George Washington and
        Alexander Hamilton. The Masons have a policy of making
        every United States President a 33rd degree Mason (the
        highest degree). Naturally, as a Catholic, Kennedy
        had to refuse the honour. Some conspiracy buffs say
        that was a fatal mistake on his part :-)

        >To me much of this seems nonsensical in if looked at
        >abstractly in philosophical terms. But socially all
        >these theories and ideas reflect intense suspicion and
        >rejection of liberalism and Zionism and the
        >established governmental bureaucracy, so it has
        >progressive significance, objectively. I found it
        >interesting that their hostililty to the Free Masons
        >is mirrored in the same sort of concern among Islamic
        >groups.

        Well the Masons tried to infiltrate the Arab world
        around 1940, but I think this was exposed as some
        kind of Zionist and imperialist front, and that was
        what angered many Arabs and Muslims.

        >In both cases of Christian identity and Islamic
        >fundamentalism the believers are apt to shoot
        >themselves in the foot too.
        >
        >The Christian identity people can fall into hostility
        >to non-Christian groups and the Islamic
        >fundamentalists set out to purify Muslim societies of
        >"un-Islamic" practices, and so they often denounce
        >normal citizens who are not ultra religious as
        >"apostates", that in addition to a tendency to regard
        >all non-Muslims as legal targets regardless of their
        >political roles. The result is spectacular attacks on
        >night clubs that kill tourists but don't harm the US,
        >or bloody attacks on Russians that tend to push Moscow
        >closer to Tel Aviv and Washington, and now possibly
        >attacks in Saudi Arabia where the targets seem to be
        >poorly chosen.
        >
        >But it's important in both cases to look at these
        >groups not in an abstract, laboratory sort of way, but
        >in their social context. Only such Marxists as are
        >able to see the spontaneous revolutionary features of
        >such groups will be able to offer a more scientific
        >outlook. The "Marxists" who prefer to stand with
        >imperialism deserve to fall with it too.

        Yes, and it's strange that I find more sense in the
        far right in the USA than the far "left".

        Comradely,

        Kevin
      • thekoba@aztecfreenet.org
        ... Dear Eric, Many thanks for this reference and the report on the bombing in Riyadh. Comradely, Kevin
        Message 3 of 3 , Nov 12, 2003
          >
          >Dear Kevin,
          >
          >Now that you mention it, yes we did discuss The
          >Passion and Mel Gibson. Paranoia seems to be a Jewish
          >trait these days such that any portrayal of any Jew in
          >a bad light upsets them.
          >
          >As to the architectural matters in the Catholic
          >Church, check out:
          >
          >http://www.realnews247.com
          >
          >There is a link on that home page (scroll down and
          >it's on the right hand side of the page as you look at
          >it) to a story about "who is changing the architecture
          >of Catholic Churches" or something like that.
          >
          >Like many rightist sites, this one mixes the very good
          >with the absurd. An example of the latter is their
          >"vindication of Senator Joe McCarthy" who was both
          >anti-Communist and Catholic, I suppose. (McCarthy
          >actually had two very zealous Jewish aids, whose names
          >I can't remember. I think maybe Cohen and Stern, but
          >I'm not sure. So for those who like to denounce
          >"Communism, the Jewish conspiracy" that fact about
          >McCarthy might be "confusing."
          >
          >I don't know much about Masons in the Arab and Islamic
          >world. I think there was some Masonic activity
          >already around 1900, but I know very little about
          >this.
          >
          >Comradely,
          >
          >Eric

          Dear Eric,

          Many thanks for this reference and the report on the bombing
          in Riyadh.

          Comradely,

          Kevin
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