more on Christian Identity
>This is a very interesting account. It appears that
>the Aryans are far less violent and threatening than
>the establishment media would have one believe, and
>far less violent and threatening than the Zionist thug
>groups. The latter probably are particularly arrogant
>because they are able to cooperate with police forces,
>either directly or via their links to Tel Aviv.
>It sounds like Butler limited his comments to
>religious mythology and behavioral advice, though. It
>seems that he didn't make any reference to the Iraq
>war or other current political issues, and so forth?
Not in so many words. He did say that we have no
business fighting the government's wars and confessed
to having been duped by the government into fighting
on the wrong side in 1942.
>This seems to be a common problem with rightwingI don't understand why McManus wanted to encourage
>groups. They take useful and even good stances on the
>issue of Jewish supremacist activity, but then put
>very little emphasis on that compared with their other
>concerns, such as, in this case, picking fights with
>Black bar managers,
people to go into bars and get drunk anyway. He had
been boasting about the amount of liquor he consumed.
Drunkenness only wastes Aryan money, destroys Aryan
brain cells, wastes Aryan time, and causes Aryans to
lose their judgment and reasoning abilities. Fighting
for dominance in some bar is also of no relevance to
the real struggle. They would do better to spend their
time soberly fighting against the war in Iraq and against
illegal immigration. I hold no higher view of "Aryan"
organisations that like to poison themselves with
>or in Butler's case, trying toI was not aware Butler was a Southerner. He didn't sound
>bring Jewish tribal biblical lore into line with a
>"racial" hostility to Jews.
>The latter, in particular is interesting.
>I suppose, on the ideological level, this is really a
>curious offshoot of southern (American) Protestantism
>which is widely known for its intense love for the
>goriest and most primitive tales of the Old Testament
>and also for a racism that at one time split the
>Baptists into two different branches over the slavery
>Some Protestants seem to reconcile this contradiction
>by drawing on the deeply racist doctrines of the
>Hebrews, but then saying that after Jesus, God's
>supposed special covenant passed from the Jews to the
>Christians, whom, through historical myopia, they
>identify as Europeans.
>Butler, a product of this conservative south, probably
>was raised to believe in the literal word of the Old
>Testament, but because he holds very strong views on
>race, he has also has come to the conclusion that Jews
>are an alien race who could never have enjoyed God's
like one. Then again he's an old man, and he's lived in
Idaho for a long time, so I suppose his speech patterns
may have changed.
>That is, he wanted to be aI'm not sure the Mormons believe that THEY are
>consistent White racist but couldn't reconcile that
>with continued faith in the Old Testament. So he
>solves the issue by denying that the Hebrews had
>anything to do with the Old Testament.
>This is the flip side, I suppose, of the doctrines of
>the Mormons and other Protestant spin offs that
>Christianity is a new Judaism and that (so the Mormons
>maintain, I believe) they are all somehow descended
>from the ancient 12 tribes of Jews.
descended from those tribes, but the Book of Mormon
describes the mythical journey of a man and his
family from one of those tribes from Jerusalem to
the Americas just before the sack of Jerusalem in
586 BCE. Supposedly these descendants divided into
the Nephites, who obeyed God's word, and the Lamanites,
who were punished for disobedience by "a curse of
blackness of the skin" (2 Nephi 5:20-22, the Book of
Mormon). Supposedly the Nephites turned away from
God and were exterminated by the Lamanites sometime
in the fifth century CE. The Lamanites, supposedly,
were the ancestors of the American Indians, so the
Mormons believe that the American Indians are
descendants of the tribe of Judah, albeit afflicted
of a "curse of blackness of skin".
>In other words, for those who seem compelled to mixYes, Aryan Nations does use a lot of ancient Hebrew.
>race with the religious indoctrination they received
>as children, the Bible writers and they themselves
>must all be Aryan (Butler and AN), or else they must
>all be Jews (the Mormons, and in a "spritual sense"
>From the standpoint of social class, I suppose this
>goes back to the blackout that has been imposed in the
>US on any form of genuine class ideology. At least
>since 1917 every generation of Americans was taught
>that Communism was "out to get them" and to stay away
>from it. And of course you had to be pretty
>intellectual to familiarize yourself with Marxist
>thought. Then too, Zionist Jewish intellectual
>"communists" who seem to have heavily dominated the
>Communist Party at the start of the Cold War probably
>helped to drive the reactionaries' point that "Commies
>are un-American" home.
>So the masses were left to marinate in the silly old
>ideologies of the worst representatives of mankind's
>primitive age, and therefore protest against social
>injustice comes forth in the guise of David Koresh's
>"Davidian" sect that flew a Star of David flag, or in
>the form of historical nonsense of Butler who proudly
>insists that the bloody drivel of the Old Testament is
>part of his Aryan heritage.
>This is going to be a long battle.
One of their emblems even has a star of David, so they
consider the star of David and the swastika to both be
Aryan symbols and in no way incompatable. They refer
to God as "Yh'wh" in a Roman alphabet version of the
ancient Hebrew "I am who am".
I suppose there's a strong parallel between the role of
Christian Identity doctrine/ideology in North America
and Islamic fundamentalism in the Muslim countries,
with the major exception that Christian Identity isn't
(for the time being anyway) nearly as popular here as
Islamic fundamentalism there. In both cases, it is a
religious expression of social protest to fill a vacuum
posed by a lack of exposure to Marxism-Leninism and
dialectical materialism or by the discredit of same in
the view of the masses.
>I guess I just assumed that Butler was a southerner
>because in my personal experience strong devotion to
>Old Testament lore seems to be more prevalent in the
>South. In fact, however, it might be characteristic
>of most of rural America.
Definitely it is characteristic of the remnants and
descendants of the peasant class, such as it is in the
USA, and this class has been strongest in the South.
>As regards McManus' enthusiasm for bar fights,I'm sure Hitler was practical enough to understand that
>apparently they are not inclined to follow Hitler and
>abstain from alcohol. Hitler never made his personal
>dietary habits a required or even recommended practice
>for Germans as a whole, yet in this case, one would
>think that reason coupled with Hitler's example might
>encouraged the Aryan Nation group to channel their
>energy in other directions.
he was not going to convert the German people to
vegetarianism :-) It's also interesting that, as much as
Hitler hated hunting and hunters, he signed into law
the 1938 revision of the gun law that made it easier for
Germans to obtain hunting weapons and that made a hunting
license function as a de facto concealed weapons permit.
>But then, I suppose, this is less a rational strategicYes, and it's definitely the wrong reaction. I'm sure
>response to repression and other social pressures, and
>more of an "instinctive," or "knee jerk" reaction.
the Jews would much rather have us spend our free time
acting like drunken fools in bars than soberly opposing
>It's too bad that Butler didn't raise the Iraq warYes, that is definitely a factor I should have
>issue, though. That is a vitally important issue now
>and also one on which they could probably make some
>points since there is a growing sense that Bush duped
>the nation into getting into Iraq.
>On the Mormons, perhaps they don't think they are
>descendants of the 12 tribes, but they all seem to go
>in for genealogy, and those whom I know to have
>"succeeded in tracing their ancestry" all seem to
>trace their ancestry back to some Biblical patriarch.
>Again, that's based on my personal experience of some
>Mormons, though. Perhaps not all do.
>The Christian identity stuff and Islamic
>fundamentalism are indeed parallels, I think. Of
>course the US is an imperialist nation, so that throws
>an element of confusion into the mix right away, since
>for many people "identity" is equated with aggressive
>wars against "others."
included. Another important difference is that
you don't have the racial animosity among Islamic
fundamentalists. Imperialism definitely adds that
to the mix.
>But for those willing or interested in resistance,Yes, I thought I sent you my comments on that
>Christian identity is one vehicle for it. Are you
>familiar with the new Mel Gibson film in the making.
>A great hullaballoo is being raised about it simplyAs I said, I feel silly discussing questions of fact
>because Gibson is trying to follow the accounts in the
>New Testament which, I believe, basically blame the
>Jews for Christ's conviction. Jewish groups are
>saying that this is anti-Semitic.
about events two millenia ago, but if we assume that
the depiction in the Bible is correct, I fail to see
how it would apply to Jews today. I'm sure our Aryan
ancestors 2000 years ago in northern Europe did some
things that we would think extremely uncouth at best,
but no one would say it reflects upon us (except the
occasional Jew who likes to gloat at how much older
his "civilisation" is than ours).
>In Cincinnati there were several Catholics of, II hadn't heard about this, but it's definitely true
>guess, the old line or whatever it's called who
>denounce the creeping "Free Masonry" in Catholic
>church architecture and liturgy, etc.
that before the Second Vatican Council, Catholics
were forbidden from having anything to do with the
Freemasons. I do remember attending Tom Ceranski's
wedding in a Catholic Church in central Phoenix
(St. Mary's Basilica). I was struck by the lack of
graven images. Whoever heard of a Catholic church
without graven images?! Maybe that's one of the
reasons for this group's complaints.
>A variant on that was those people who analyzed theWell it's no secret that many of the founding fathers
>symbols on the back of the dollar bill, pointing to
>the pyramid and eye as Masonic symbols and maintaining
>that the eagle is in fact a Masonic phoenix. Just
>what difference it makes for us masses whether the
>dollar bill features Masonic, patriotic, or other
>symbols is not clear to me, except that I suppose if
>they are Masonic symbols it indicates the presence of
>a lot of Masons in positions of power when the bill
were Masons, including both George Washington and
Alexander Hamilton. The Masons have a policy of making
every United States President a 33rd degree Mason (the
highest degree). Naturally, as a Catholic, Kennedy
had to refuse the honour. Some conspiracy buffs say
that was a fatal mistake on his part :-)
>To me much of this seems nonsensical in if looked atWell the Masons tried to infiltrate the Arab world
>abstractly in philosophical terms. But socially all
>these theories and ideas reflect intense suspicion and
>rejection of liberalism and Zionism and the
>established governmental bureaucracy, so it has
>progressive significance, objectively. I found it
>interesting that their hostililty to the Free Masons
>is mirrored in the same sort of concern among Islamic
around 1940, but I think this was exposed as some
kind of Zionist and imperialist front, and that was
what angered many Arabs and Muslims.
>In both cases of Christian identity and IslamicYes, and it's strange that I find more sense in the
>fundamentalism the believers are apt to shoot
>themselves in the foot too.
>The Christian identity people can fall into hostility
>to non-Christian groups and the Islamic
>fundamentalists set out to purify Muslim societies of
>"un-Islamic" practices, and so they often denounce
>normal citizens who are not ultra religious as
>"apostates", that in addition to a tendency to regard
>all non-Muslims as legal targets regardless of their
>political roles. The result is spectacular attacks on
>night clubs that kill tourists but don't harm the US,
>or bloody attacks on Russians that tend to push Moscow
>closer to Tel Aviv and Washington, and now possibly
>attacks in Saudi Arabia where the targets seem to be
>But it's important in both cases to look at these
>groups not in an abstract, laboratory sort of way, but
>in their social context. Only such Marxists as are
>able to see the spontaneous revolutionary features of
>such groups will be able to offer a more scientific
>outlook. The "Marxists" who prefer to stand with
>imperialism deserve to fall with it too.
far right in the USA than the far "left".
>Now that you mention it, yes we did discuss The
>Passion and Mel Gibson. Paranoia seems to be a Jewish
>trait these days such that any portrayal of any Jew in
>a bad light upsets them.
>As to the architectural matters in the Catholic
>Church, check out:
>There is a link on that home page (scroll down and
>it's on the right hand side of the page as you look at
>it) to a story about "who is changing the architecture
>of Catholic Churches" or something like that.
>Like many rightist sites, this one mixes the very good
>with the absurd. An example of the latter is their
>"vindication of Senator Joe McCarthy" who was both
>anti-Communist and Catholic, I suppose. (McCarthy
>actually had two very zealous Jewish aids, whose names
>I can't remember. I think maybe Cohen and Stern, but
>I'm not sure. So for those who like to denounce
>"Communism, the Jewish conspiracy" that fact about
>McCarthy might be "confusing."
>I don't know much about Masons in the Arab and Islamic
>world. I think there was some Masonic activity
>already around 1900, but I know very little about
Many thanks for this reference and the report on the bombing