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Morton Berger and cruel and unusual punishment

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  • thekoba@aztecfreenet.org
    Mr. Montini: If you truly believe that posession of a photograph depicting child pornography is and bad as actually abusing a child and deserves the same
    Message 1 of 3 , May 18, 2003
      Mr. Montini:

      If you truly believe that posession of a photograph depicting child
      pornography is and bad as actually abusing a child and deserves the
      same punishment, let's take it to its logical conclusion. As a journalist
      you've doubtless had possession of photographs of people who have been
      murdered. Does that mean you belong on death row?

      --Kevin Walsh
    • thekoba@aztecfreenet.org
      ... Dear Eric, Mr. Berger was sentenced to 200 years in prison for having a collection of photographs. He never assaulted or abused any child or solicited
      Message 2 of 3 , May 18, 2003
        >I totally agree. What garbage! Like I heard of some
        >British singer who did nothing but look at a page on
        >which was "kiddie porn" and that is a crime in the UK.
        > They didn't even say that he paid any "membership"
        >cost to look. Note that the page itself is not
        >illegal; looking at it is illegal!
        >
        >I absolutely oppose any criminalization of viewing
        >anything on the internet. If you want to ban stuff on
        >there, ban the site and make it inaccessible. Let's
        >debate the pros and cons of banning sites, but don't
        >go arrest people who look at sites that are there in
        >complete legality. One might have viewed a site
        >accidentally, or out of curiousity. In general
        >looking at a picture of something is quite different
        >indeed from engaging in any act with the person
        >pictured.
        >
        >Besides, "kiddie porn" includes anything from naked
        >baby pictures to graphic photos of rape of children.
        >I personally believe that the two are quite different,
        >yet I have seen all of them being called "kiddie porn"
        >just because there is (a) nudity or partial nudity,
        >and (b) the subjects are under 18. Following this
        >guy's logic, I suppose having naked baby pictures of
        >one's own children amounts to sexual abuse of one's
        >children.
        >
        >Even if it is argued that purchasing an article of
        >child pornography encourages trafficking in child
        >pornography by providing a market, I am not yet
        >convinced that there is an adequate and reasonable
        >definition of child pornography.
        >
        >In addition, possession of a picture does not mean
        >that the picture was purchased. It might have been
        >found, obtained as a gift, or downloaded for free from
        >the internet.
        >
        >Comradely,
        >
        >Eric

        Dear Eric,

        Mr. Berger was sentenced to 200 years in prison for having
        a collection of photographs. He never assaulted or abused
        any child or solicited anyone to do so. Mr. Montini made
        some reference to his having paid for photographs. I don't
        know if there is any truth to that. Montini is a very
        dishonest columnist who distorts and sensationalizes to get
        his view across. I know that from long experience with his
        columns in the Arizona Republic, though more from the gun
        control issue than the child pornography issue. If Berger
        did pay for photographs that he knew were made from the
        abuse of children for commercial purposes, I would say he
        has some guilt and deserves some punishment, but certainly
        not a life sentence. If he merely downloaded them
        for free or received them as a gift or bought them from
        someone with no financial interest or connection with the
        original act, I don't see that he did anything wrong.

        I agree with you that in many areas the definition of child
        pornography is nebulous and inconsistent. A photograph of
        a naked infant may be a sexual turn-on for some sick person,
        but it is more likely simply the loving momento of a proud
        parent. Unfortunately, by the letter of the law in Arizona
        and many other states, draconian sentences could be imposed on
        a parent who innocently photographs his or her child while in
        a state of undress.

        I heard of a case in Ohio, where a man was sentenced to ten
        years imprisonment for having private papers describing a
        totally ficticious act of child abuse, which he neither
        published nor intended to publish. The child was entirely
        a creation of his imagination, not some real or intended
        victim, and no one was to see the paper but the author.
        Nonetheless the court upheld this draconian sentence for
        what amounts to nothing more than thought crime. One may
        argue that this person had very bad taste in private
        literature and that perhaps he had a personality the might
        lead him to harm a child someday, but realistically we don't
        punish potential crimes or thinking about crimes. If we did,
        there would be few people in this society living outside
        prison walls. After all, who hasn't thought of committing
        some anti-social act? :-)

        I think all decent people deplore child abuse, whether sexual
        or otherwise. Nonetheless in our zeal to combat it and
        protect our children, we must not go to such lengths as
        draconian punishments for harmless acts.

        Comradely,

        Kevin
      • thekoba@aztecfreenet.org
        ... Dear Eric, Yes, that is very true. Leave aside the question of whether the parents were responsible for her murder; even if they had nothing to do with
        Message 3 of 3 , May 18, 2003
          >Exactly! And indeed draconian punishments are imposed
          >for harmless acts while harmful ones go unpunished.
          >Leave aside the millions who have little or no medical
          >care, who have little or no parental guidance because
          >their parents work for a living, and all the other
          >directly capitalist-related issues.
          >
          >There are significant perversions that are not even
          >regarded as abuse. For example in connection with the
          >Jon Benet Ramsay murder, it came out that there are
          >perhaps thousands of parents turning toddlers and
          >young girls into beauty queens, some going so far as
          >to have their teeth pulled in order to make them more
          >"presentable."

          Dear Eric,

          Yes, that is very true. Leave aside the question
          of whether the parents were responsible for her
          murder; even if they had nothing to do with it, what
          they did to their daughter when she was alive was
          appalling, yet, regretably, perfectly legal. As
          much as we, in the West, abhor such customs as (former)
          Chinese foot-binding, or female circumcision of some
          Muslim countries, can we honestly say that these
          "beauty pagents" are any more enlightened?

          >Or on a non-sexual topic, I had a workmate once who
          >insisted that his son would go out for football in
          >highschool, because he, the father, had done so and
          >was a football nut. He said it made no difference
          >whether his son was inclined to go out for football;
          >he would compell him to do so regardless of his son's
          >own desires. And many adults try to live their
          >childhood fantasies vicariously through their
          >children. I can't say how much physical abuse this
          >entails, but it is certainly harmful, in my opinion.

          Oh, I can imagine where that could get sexual, on a
          psychological level anyway. I dare say if that young
          man resisted, his sexual orientation might be questioned.

          Another form of child abuse that is fully sanctioned by
          law is the religious indoctrination of children and
          forcible participation in religious ceremonies. I
          personally had to endure that. Some misguided people,
          even among those calling themselves secular humanists
          and human rights activists, have criticized the old
          Soviet Union as "suppressing" religion, because its
          law forbade religious instruction to young people, but
          that was one of its better laws. I do not accept the
          doctrine that children are the property and chattels of
          their parents.

          >I hadn't heard of the case of the man sent to jail for
          >writing a story about sexual abuse. That is genuinely
          >outrageous. Obviously you can't start convicting
          >people for such things and claim there is any freedom
          >of expression left. These weren't even for
          >publication. Another example of rampant political
          >correctness.
          >
          >And a life sentence for possession of pictures is also
          >an outrage, even if he knowingly paid for them. I
          >don't know the exact nature of what the pictures
          >showed, but whatever it was, clearly the people who
          >made the pictures are the real source of the problem,
          >if indeed there is a problem.
          >
          >According to reports I've read, there is more rape of
          >men in the US (because of prison rape) than there is
          >of women. And here they are sending people into those
          >homosexual rape dungeons because they were found in
          >possession of pictures! There's something very wrong
          >here!

          I'm afraid Mr. Berger's fate may be particularly
          horrible, as those who are in for "dangerous crimes
          against children", as his ownership of photographs
          is officially classified under Arizona law, tend to
          be singled-out for such mistreatment.

          It is odd that in former times, those who were
          convicted of another sexual offense, known in our
          statutes as "the infamous crime against nature"
          (consentual homosexual conduct), would be sent to
          prison for up to twenty years. The authorities
          figured you could "cure" a homosexual by sending him
          to prison! Go figure!

          >I guess some of the far rightists might defend such
          >draconian measures against those who offend "Christian
          >morality", and many of the left would jump on any
          >politically correct bandwagon that happens to be
          >passing by. But we really need to avoid such genuine
          >perversions if we are going to keep society sane.

          Restore society to sanity might be a better phrase.

          Comradely,

          Kevin
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