Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Articles on R. bakeri vs. R. cumberlandense

Expand Messages
  • redsrhodies
    Bruce, I missed your question about the doubles being technically semi-double. They are petalloid doubles where the anthers are now petals as opposed to
    Message 1 of 4 , Mar 4, 2008
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      Bruce,
      I missed your question about the doubles being technically semi-double.

      They are petalloid doubles where the anthers are now petals as opposed
      to hose-in-hose double which may have a full set of anthers. There is
      a good photo on the Lake Wilderness web site. Britt Smith's tray,
      slide 22.

      Dick 'Red" Cavender, Sherwood, OR Zone 8

      --- In azaleas@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Clyburn" <bclyburn@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Bill:
      >
      > These seem like very interesting articles. Do you have full Adobe
      software? If you have, you can convert the pages to jpegs. This
      reduces the size greatly but still very readable. The maximum size
      e-mail you can post at Yahoo is 1mb or 800 kb to be safe. The first
      two JARS articles I think I can locate but if you could send me the
      3rd - Edinburgh Journal of Botany article I would appreciate it greatly.
      >
      > Bruce Clyburn
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: William C. Miller III
      > To: azaleas@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 6:36 PM
      > Subject: Re: [AZ] Re: Red Cavender Hybrids--R bakeri
      >
      >
      > Jim,
      >
      > I am going to send you three pdf files directly. I don't believe
      the list will permit the file sizes, but the folks have the
      references. If that e-mail bounces due to size, I will send them
      separately.
      >
      > BvsC1.pdf
      > BvsC2.pdf
      > kron.pdf
      >
      > The first is an article written by Don Voss, Rhododendron bakeri
      vs R. cumberlandense, JARS, Vol. 51, No. 4, Fall 1997, p 197.
      > The second is an expansion or revisitation of the first article
      --- also by Don Voss, Rhododendron bakeri vs R. cumberlandense
      Revisited, JARS,Vol. 57, No. 3, Summer 2003, pp131 - 133.
      > The third and final file is two pages out of Kron's original
      publication in the Edinburgh Journal of Botany --- K. A. Kron, A
      Revision of Rhododendron Section Pentanthera --- Edinb. J. Bot. 50(3)
      249-364 (1993) --- specifically page 310 which is part of her
      discussion of cumberlandense --- note particularly the last paragraph
      --- and page 362 to which you are referred to a list of hybrids.
      >
      > In short, the R. bakeri represented by Lemmon's 1938 type
      specimen is probably flammeum x canescens. The significance is that
      bakeri is not cumberlandense
      >
      > I don't have 'Camp's Red' or 'Sunlight'. The IRRC says that
      'Camp's Red' is a selection of cumberlandense. The IRRC says that
      'Sunlight' is a selection grown from wild-collected cumberlandense seed.
      >
      > Bill
      >
      > jwillhite@... wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > Bill--I was not aware that bakeri and cumberlandense are
      different. Can you elaborate a little for my benefit? If bakeri is a
      hybrid, what is the other parent (cumberlandense being one)? and are
      the few named forms of bakeri/cumberlandense out there (like Camp Red
      and Sunlight), are they bakeri or cumberlandense?
      > thanks for your help
      > jim willhite
      >
      > -------------- Original message --------------
      > From: "William C. Miller III" <bill@...>
      > Red and Bruce,
      >
      > Do you really mean Rhododendron bakeri? The bakeri of record
      is a hybrid (according to Dr. Kron) and not the red azalea of the
      Cumberland mountains, more properly R. cumberlandense. My point is
      that bakeri is not the same as cumberlandense.
      >
      > Bill Miller
      > Bethesda, Maryland
      > www.theazaleaworks.com
      >
      > Bruce Clyburn wrote:
      >
      > Hi Red:
      >
      > From the site I just referenced to Jim Willhite I found the
      attached photos and you are very correct, these are clearly two
      different R. occidentale. I must go back and find out where I got them
      confused. The cross was made by Frank Mossman himself and donated to
      the 1992 ARS Seed Exchange - SM189 was the seed parent.
      >
      > I guess the double occ x bakeri that have a bit of pollen
      are techniquely semi-double forms? R. arborscens x a double R. occ
      sounds interesting, should be very scented. Thanks for the pollen
      offer; I'll check with you in early May to see what you're up to.
      >
      > Bruce C.
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: redsrhodies
      > To: azaleas@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 4:59 PM
      > Subject: [AZ] Re: Red Cavender Hybrids
      >
      >
      > Bruce,
      >
      > No problem with the change of subject.
      >
      > I see that the subject "Double Deciduous Azaleas" was
      posted on this
      > group but was answered mostly on the Rhodo group. I will
      confine my
      > posts to this group.
      >
      > I would be happy to collect pollen for anyone interested.
      My bloom
      > season for R. occ is usually the 2nd week of May through
      mid June. For
      > the hybrids, it's often a week later. This may be an early
      year.
      > Trouble is I am often up to my ears in alligators around
      that time,
      > but let me know. The problem with many of the occ x bakeri
      plants is
      > that they don't make a lot of pollen. Doubles are
      especially bad but I
      > can often find 1 or 2 flowers with pollen.
      >
      > A couple of other things. SM 189 is not Stagecoach Frills.
      They are
      > from two different locations. Neither is registered. SM
      189 was the
      > largest flower Smith-Mossman found. `Leonard Frisbee' is a
      big frilly,
      > collector's number SM 232.
      >
      > Mike Oliver made a cross of `Colo ssus' x SM 30 `Crescent
      City Gold' in
      > 2004 and I have budded plants. I have seen a similar cross
      over the
      > years but never had plants.
      >
      > Mike also did R. arborscens x a double R. occ of mine.
      It's parentage
      > is [{SM 189 x `Leonard Frisbee'} #21 x `Crescent City
      Double]plant #2.
      > I have about 20 plants and most are budded.
      >
      > Dick ' Red' Cavender, Sherwood OR Zone 8
      >
      > --- In azaleas@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Clyburn"
      <bclyburn@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Red,
      >
      > > I hope you don't mind a change of subject. Thanks for that
      > information; you've studied 'doubles' extensively. I know
      of your
      > crosses R. occidentale x R. bakeri, very nice, I would
      like to some
      > day get a bit of pollen to apply to my plants of R.
      occidentale SM
      > 189 (Stagecoach Frills) x R. calendulaceum 'Colossus' . I
      think this
      > might generate a few good 'offings'?
      > >
      > > Bruce C.
      > >
      > >
      > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: redsrhodies
      > > To: azaleas@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2008 8:38 PM
      > > Subject: [AZ] Re: Double Deciduous Azaleas
      > >
      > >
      > > Bruce,
      > >
      > > There are a number of doubles around. Narcissiflora is
      an old timer.
      > > Cannon's Double, Corneille are all double. There are a
      couple of
      > > double R. occidentale as well. Crescent City Double is
      registered.
      > > It's SM 28-2. SM 28-3 is similar. Page 83 of Azaleas
      lists a number,
      > > Rustica or Double Ghent. Also Rustica Flora Plena hybrids.
      > >
      > > My very first cross was of an R. occidentale X R. bakeri
      and I
      > > reinvented Homebush. I have 4 or 5 plants and all are
      small double, 1
      > > or 2 have some yellow flare and a couple are fragrant.
      However, I have
      > > never gotten them to take pollen. I find an occasional
      OP pod and have
      > > a few plan t s from that. Similar to their parents.
      > >
      > > Since that cross, doubles have been my goal. I want a
      large frilly
      > > fragrant double that flowers in June - July. I am
      getting there. I am
      > > in the 5th or 6th generation now. I have a number of
      plants that have
      > > Crescent City Double in their parentage that are
      consistently double.
      > > I have crossed these with August Sunrise and September
      Surprise
      > > (arborscens x prunifolium) and should see a few flower
      this year. Some
      > > of these crosses produce very little pollen and don't
      take it very
      > > well either. Usually a double will have a few single
      flowers with
      > > pollen. A second generation cross using a large flower
      crossed with a
      > > frilly and that with a double, all R. occidentale,
      produced a 3"
      > double.
      > >
      > > Arnesons had a number of doubles but I don't think they
      are around any
      > > more. Briggs was not interested. I did get a bit of
      pollen once and
      > > ha ve several nice doubles from them.
      > >
      > > Frank Mossman crossed a double R. occidentale with
      Cecile and produced
      > > a nice large double. It was never named but I have plants.
      > >
      > > Allen Cantrell has several doubles from the wild. He
      collected cutting
      > > of my plants some years ago and sent me several of his.
      I think they
      > > will flower this year. More fodder for crossing.
      > >
      > > I get the digest so did not see your photo. I have
      photos of many of
      > > mine. You are welcome to contact me off group if you
      wish and I would
      > > be happy to collect pollen if anyone is interested.
      > >
      > > Dick 'Red' Cavender, Sherwood, Oregon Zone 8
      > >
      > > --- In azaleas@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Clyburn"
      <bclyburn@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > I was browsing a bit this morning and located the
      attached snap from
      > > an album posted by a lady. It was the only plant ph ot o
      of many from a
      > > holiday tour, I'm sure she didn't recognize the
      uniqueness of the
      > > plant she captured. A double deciduous azalea. Has
      anybody pursued
      > > this line of hybridizing? I know the late Al Smith of the
      > > Horticultural Research Institute of Ontario of Guelph
      University,
      > > Vineland Ontario carried out a line of these crosses.He
      used R.
      > > Chelsea Reach (a double Knaphill) as the seed parent.
      Some other folks
      > > have used R. Homebush (Knaphill double also) ... photo
      is attached is
      > > my Homebush.
      > > >
      > > > Can anyone put a name on the azalea in this photo?
      > > > Has anyone done similar crosses?
      > > > Anybody suggest good seed parents that throw doubles,
      like R.
      > > Chelsea Reach and R. Homebush?
      > > >
      > > > Bruce Clyburn
      > > > New Waterford, NS
      > > > Canada, zone 6a
      > > >
      > >
      >
    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.