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Re: [AZ] Crosses of Vireya azaleas with eastern natives?

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  • E. WHITE SMITH
    OK you guys. Here is the deal. Lucie and I have NEVER seen a plant of Vireya crossed with anything else except for a vireya. BUT it was done by John Rouse
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 4, 2007
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      OK you guys.  Here is the deal.  Lucie and I have NEVER seen a plant of Vireya crossed with anything else except for a vireya.  BUT it was done by John Rouse in Melbourne.  He crossed R. resusum (a vireya species) x R. nudiflorum (an American native azalea) and it flowered.  John Rouse said in conclusion "It is unfortunate that due to it's sterility the hybrid is of no value for further breading.  In addition it is difficult to propagate and has unattractive foliage".  Oz Blumhardt (in New Zealand) made a hybrid of R. lochiae (now called R. viriosum) x R. virgatum.  Oz named the plant 'Little Pioneer' but it was not a good plant at all. 
      All of this is printed in Lucies and my book 'Vireya Rhododendrons, An Anthology of Articles from the Journal of The American Rhododendron Society'.  Lots of good things in this self published book (we have sold more than 400 copies. 
       
      And if anyone wants to try crossing Vireyas with other things, please have at it.  We are not going to waste our time though doing something that we are sure would not work or be worth it. 
       
      E White Smith
       
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: 1/4/2007 9:55:45 AM
      Subject: Re: [AZ] Crosses of Vireya azaleas with eastern natives?

      Is what you state below in using the vireya or native
      azalea as the seed parent? How could a pollen tube
      grow past the ovary?
      Mike Creel,SC

      --- Larry Wallace <UUallace@gmail. com> wrote:

      > The crosses are genetically possible, but
      > mechanically impossible. The
      > pollen will produce a tube that grows "to infinity
      > and beyond."
      > Fertilization never occurs.
      > Larry
      >
      >
      > On 1/3/07, Mike Creel <mikeacreel@yahoo. com> wrote:
      > >
      > > Does anyone in the group know of any hybrids
      > created
      > > between any Vireya species and eastern native
      > azaleas
      > > or of attempts to make such crosses. I heard that
      > > such hybridization is possible and has already
      > been
      > > dome somewhere. I can find no specific information
      > on
      > > this topic.
      > >
      > > Mike Creel, SC USDA Zone 8a
      > > Nature is my Greenhouse
      > > Join the Azalea Society of America
      > > http://www.azaleas. org
      > >
      > >
      >

    • Larry Wallace
      The pollen tube grows in a coil, like a root bound plant www.publish.csiro.au/?act=view_file&file_id=BT9860413.pdf Larry
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 4, 2007
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        The pollen tube grows in a coil, like a root bound plant
        Larry

         
        On 1/4/07, E. WHITE SMITH <bovees@...> wrote:

        OK you guys.  Here is the deal.  Lucie and I have NEVER seen a plant of Vireya crossed with anything else except for a vireya.  BUT it was done by John Rouse in Melbourne.  He crossed R. resusum (a vireya species) x R. nudiflorum (an American native azalea) and it flowered.  John Rouse said in conclusion "It is unfortunate that due to it's sterility the hybrid is of no value for further breading.  In addition it is difficult to propagate and has unattractive foliage".  Oz Blumhardt (in New Zealand) made a hybrid of R. lochiae (now called R. viriosum) x R. virgatum.  Oz named the plant 'Little Pioneer' but it was not a good plant at all. 
        All of this is printed in Lucies and my book 'Vireya Rhododendrons, An Anthology of Articles from the Journal of The American Rhododendron Society'.  Lots of good things in this self published book (we have sold more than 400 copies. 
         
        And if anyone wants to try crossing Vireyas with other things, please have at it.  We are not going to waste our time though doing something that we are sure would not work or be worth it. 
         
        E White Smith
         
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: 1/4/2007 9:55:45 AM
        Subject: Re: [AZ] Crosses of Vireya azaleas with eastern natives?

         

        Is what you state below in using the vireya or native
        azalea as the seed parent? How could a pollen tube
        grow past the ovary?
        Mike Creel,SC

        --- Larry Wallace < UUallace@...> wrote:

        > The crosses are genetically possible, but
        > mechanically impossible. The
        > pollen will produce a tube that grows "to infinity
        > and beyond."
        > Fertilization never occurs.
        > Larry
        >
        >
        > On 1/3/07, Mike Creel <mikeacreel@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Does anyone in the group know of any hybrids
        > created
        > > between any Vireya species and eastern native
        > azaleas
        > > or of attempts to make such crosses. I heard that
        > > such hybridization is possible and has already
        > been
        > > dome somewhere. I can find no specific information
        > on
        > > this topic.
        > >
        > > Mike Creel, SC USDA Zone 8a
        > > Nature is my Greenhouse
        > > Join the Azalea Society of America
        > > http://www.azaleas.org
        > >
        > >
        >


      • George Klump
        4 January 2007 White, Here is a short e-mail I got from Carl Deul on this subject. Carl says that azaleas, which tend to be diploids, will produce sterile
        Message 3 of 7 , Jan 4, 2007
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          4 January 2007
           
          White,
           
          Here is a short e-mail I got from Carl Deul on this subject.  Carl says that azaleas, which tend to be diploids, will produce sterile plants.  He says that a tetraploid azalea would be necessary to accomplish this and he thinks tetraploids may be found among the Exbury azaleas.  In any event he would agree with you, White, that one otherwise gets sterile plants from these crosses.  Here's what he had to say on the subject:
          There is a difference of opinion on these species.  Depending who you talk to the yellow pigmennts in Johnstoneanum could be flavenoids or carotenoids and the pigments need to be evaluated chemically.
           
          Austrinium has both flaveniod and carotenoid pigments. Since canescens freely hybridize with austrinum, it is hard to guess which yellow pigments are present.
           
          Carl
           
          Granted this earlier question is a little different, but, nevertheless.
           
          George
           
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 12:19 PM
          Subject: Re: [AZ] Crosses of Vireya azaleas with eastern natives?

          OK you guys.  Here is the deal.  Lucie and I have NEVER seen a plant of Vireya crossed with anything else except for a vireya.  BUT it was done by John Rouse in Melbourne.  He crossed R. resusum (a vireya species) x R. nudiflorum (an American native azalea) and it flowered.  John Rouse said in conclusion "It is unfortunate that due to it's sterility the hybrid is of no value for further breading.  In addition it is difficult to propagate and has unattractive foliage".  Oz Blumhardt (in New Zealand) made a hybrid of R. lochiae (now called R. viriosum) x R. virgatum.  Oz named the plant 'Little Pioneer' but it was not a good plant at all. 
          All of this is printed in Lucies and my book 'Vireya Rhododendrons, An Anthology of Articles from the Journal of The American Rhododendron Society'.  Lots of good things in this self published book (we have sold more than 400 copies. 
           
          And if anyone wants to try crossing Vireyas with other things, please have at it.  We are not going to waste our time though doing something that we are sure would not work or be worth it. 
           
          E White Smith
           
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: 1/4/2007 9:55:45 AM
          Subject: Re: [AZ] Crosses of Vireya azaleas with eastern natives?

          Is what you state below in using the vireya or native
          azalea as the seed parent? How could a pollen tube
          grow past the ovary?
          Mike Creel,SC

          --- Larry Wallace <UUallace@gmail. com> wrote:

          > The crosses are genetically possible, but
          > mechanically impossible. The
          > pollen will produce a tube that grows "to infinity
          > and beyond."
          > Fertilization never occurs.
          > Larry
          >
          >
          > On 1/3/07, Mike Creel <mikeacreel@yahoo. com> wrote:
          > >
          > > Does anyone in the group know of any hybrids
          > created
          > > between any Vireya species and eastern native
          > azaleas
          > > or of attempts to make such crosses. I heard that
          > > such hybridization is possible and has already
          > been
          > > dome somewhere. I can find no specific information
          > on
          > > this topic.
          > >
          > > Mike Creel, SC USDA Zone 8a
          > > Nature is my Greenhouse
          > > Join the Azalea Society of America
          > > http://www.azaleas. org
          > >
          > >
          >

        • Mike Creel
          I guess I need to disect the seed pods when my own attempted crosses of two species seem to be succeeding and then fail. After reading the abstract below:
          Message 4 of 7 , Jan 4, 2007
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            I guess I need to disect the seed pods when my own
            attempted crosses of two species seem to be succeeding
            and then fail. After reading the abstract below:

            Overgrowth of Pollen Tubes in Embryo Sacs of
            Rhododendron Following Interspecific Pollinations

            EG Williams, V Kaul, JL Rouse and BF Palser

            Abstract

            Frequent overgrowths of pollen tubes within the embryo
            sac are characteristic of a number of interspecific
            crosses in the genus Rhododendron (Ericaceae). The
            combined techniques of sectioning, squashing and
            whole-ovule clearing have confirmed that in ovules
            showing this phenomenon the pollen tube fails to
            terminate growth and release sperms on entry into a
            synergid; instead it continues to grow beyond the
            synergid and egg cell, often filling the main body of
            the embryo sac with a coiled and distorted mass. Such
            ovules fail to develop further. The occurrence and
            possible causes of this error syndrome are discussed.

            Australian Journal of Botany 34(4) 413 - 423

            Full text doi:10.1071/BT9860413

            © CSIRO 1986


            --- Larry Wallace <UUallace@...> wrote:

            > The pollen tube grows in a coil, like a root bound
            > plant
            >
            www.publish.csiro.au/?act=view_file&file_id=BT9860413.pdf
            > Larry
            >
            >
            > On 1/4/07, E. WHITE SMITH <bovees@...>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > OK you guys. Here is the deal. Lucie and I
            > have NEVER seen a plant of
            > > Vireya crossed with anything else except for a
            > vireya. BUT it was done by
            > > John Rouse in Melbourne. He crossed R. resusum (a
            > vireya species) x R.
            > > nudiflorum (an American native azalea) and it
            > flowered. John Rouse said in
            > > conclusion "It is unfortunate that due to it's
            > sterility the hybrid is of no
            > > value for further breading. In addition it is
            > difficult to propagate and
            > > has unattractive foliage". Oz Blumhardt (in New
            > Zealand) made a hybrid of
            > > R. lochiae (now called R. viriosum) x R. virgatum.
            > Oz named the plant
            > > 'Little Pioneer' but it was not a good plant at
            > all.
            > > All of this is printed in Lucies and my book
            > 'Vireya Rhododendrons, An
            > > Anthology of Articles from the Journal of The
            > American Rhododendron
            > > Society'. Lots of good things in this self
            > published book (we have sold
            > > more than 400 copies.
            > >
            > > And if anyone wants to try crossing Vireyas with
            > other things, please have
            > > at it. We are not going to waste our time though
            > doing something that we
            > > are sure would not work or be worth it.
            > >
            > > E White Smith
            > > www.bovees.com
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > *From:* Mike Creel <mikeacreel@...>
            > > *To: *azaleas@yahoogroups.com
            > > *Sent:* 1/4/2007 9:55:45 AM
            > > *Subject:* Re: [AZ] Crosses of Vireya azaleas with
            > eastern natives?
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Is what you state below in using the vireya or
            > native
            > > azalea as the seed parent? How could a pollen tube
            > > grow past the ovary?
            > > Mike Creel,SC
            > >
            > > --- Larry Wallace <UUallace@...
            > <UUallace%40gmail.com>> wrote:
            > >
            > > > The crosses are genetically possible, but
            > > > mechanically impossible. The
            > > > pollen will produce a tube that grows "to
            > infinity
            > > > and beyond."
            > > > Fertilization never occurs.
            > > > Larry
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > On 1/3/07, Mike Creel <mikeacreel@...
            > <mikeacreel%40yahoo.com>>
            > > wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > Does anyone in the group know of any hybrids
            > > > created
            > > > > between any Vireya species and eastern native
            > > > azaleas
            > > > > or of attempts to make such crosses. I heard
            > that
            > > > > such hybridization is possible and has already
            > > > been
            > > > > dome somewhere. I can find no specific
            > information
            > > > on
            > > > > this topic.
            > > > >
            > > > > Mike Creel, SC USDA Zone 8a
            > > > > Nature is my Greenhouse
            > > > > Join the Azalea Society of America
            > > > > http://www.azaleas.org
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • Mike Creel
            So the cross by John Rouse created essentially a mule, and not a particularly useful one as a garden specimen or for future breeding. But the real mule, a
            Message 5 of 7 , Jan 4, 2007
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              So the cross by John Rouse created essentially a mule,
              and not a particularly useful one as a garden specimen
              or for future breeding. But the real mule, a
              bi-species cross, is a very useful animal. If Rouse
              had created a sterile variety that was beautiful and
              easy to propagate, wouldn't his efforts be heralded as
              a success? Aren't there many evergreen azaleas, quite
              attractive, that are also sterile. I am thinking that
              IF I am ever successful in breeding a yellow evergreen
              azalea, it might be sterile. I just hope it is good
              looking, though not breeding stock.

              I imagine that Rouse did not have access to a full
              collection of American native azaleas with which to
              attempt Vireya crossing? Is Rouse still living?
              Mike Creel

              --- "E. WHITE SMITH" <bovees@...> wrote:

              > OK you guys. Here is the deal. Lucie and I have
              > NEVER seen a plant of Vireya crossed with anything
              > else except for a vireya. BUT it was done by John
              > Rouse in Melbourne. He crossed R. resusum (a vireya
              > species) x R. nudiflorum (an American native azalea)
              > and it flowered. John Rouse said in conclusion "It
              > is unfortunate that due to it's sterility the hybrid
              > is of no value for further breading. In addition it
              > is difficult to propagate and has unattractive
              > foliage". Oz Blumhardt (in New Zealand) made a
              > hybrid of R. lochiae (now called R. viriosum) x R.
              > virgatum. Oz named the plant 'Little Pioneer' but
              > it was not a good plant at all.
              > All of this is printed in Lucies and my book 'Vireya
              > Rhododendrons, An Anthology of Articles from the
              > Journal of The American Rhododendron Society'. Lots
              > of good things in this self published book (we have
              > sold more than 400 copies.
              >
              > And if anyone wants to try crossing Vireyas with
              > other things, please have at it. We are not going
              > to waste our time though doing something that we are
              > sure would not work or be worth it.
              >
              > E White Smith
              > www.bovees.com
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Mike Creel
              > To: azaleas@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: 1/4/2007 9:55:45 AM
              > Subject: Re: [AZ] Crosses of Vireya azaleas with
              > eastern natives?
              >
              >
              > Is what you state below in using the vireya or
              > native
              > azalea as the seed parent? How could a pollen tube
              > grow past the ovary?
              > Mike Creel,SC
              >
              > --- Larry Wallace <UUallace@...> wrote:
              >
              > > The crosses are genetically possible, but
              > > mechanically impossible. The
              > > pollen will produce a tube that grows "to infinity
              > > and beyond."
              > > Fertilization never occurs.
              > > Larry
              > >
              > >
              > > On 1/3/07, Mike Creel <mikeacreel@...>
              > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Does anyone in the group know of any hybrids
              > > created
              > > > between any Vireya species and eastern native
              > > azaleas
              > > > or of attempts to make such crosses. I heard
              > that
              > > > such hybridization is possible and has already
              > > been
              > > > dome somewhere. I can find no specific
              > information
              > > on
              > > > this topic.
              > > >
              > > > Mike Creel, SC USDA Zone 8a
              > > > Nature is my Greenhouse
              > > > Join the Azalea Society of America
              > > > http://www.azaleas.org
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
            • Larry Wallace
              Successful hybridization is probably going to be by in vitro fertilization or fusion. A fused plant has all of the chromosomes and all of the chondriosomes of
              Message 6 of 7 , Jan 5, 2007
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                Successful hybridization is probably going to be by in vitro
                fertilization or fusion. A fused plant has all of the chromosomes and
                all of the chondriosomes of both parents. Essentially they have two
                seed parents.
                There is a fusion kit available on the Internet, but it is meant for
                students. A red/white fused cell is not grown to flowering in a
                semester or two.
                Larry

                Mules and Hinnies are not a good comparison. The heterogametic* sex
                is sterile per Haldane's Rule. The eggs produced by the female cannot
                be 31 1/2 chromosomes. Anything close to that, the egg is not viable.
                Jacks and stallions are only willing to breed their own species. A
                teaser female ready to breed is required. A pregnant mule is a lot of
                repeated effort, But it is always good for a tabloid article.

                *Heterogemetic sex: Female birds, female butterflies, male mammals.
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