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Re; R. occidentale in Northwestern Mexico

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  • Red Cavender
    Bill Miller posted the following:
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 1, 2007
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      Bill Miller posted the following:

      <Posted by: "William C. Miller III" bill@...   azaleabill

      <Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:53 pm (PST)

      <Red,

      <Perhaps Rhododendron albiflorum (commonly referred to as the Cascade
      <azalea) doesn't appear in Galle and elsewhere because it isn't an
      <azalea. That also would explain why occidentale is the only azalea west
      <of the Rocky Mountains.

      <Bill Miller
      <Bethesda, Maryland
      <www.theazaleaworks. com
       
      Bill,
       
      I guess that would depend on which authority you ask. Cox in Encyclopedia of Rhododendron Species lists R. albiflorum as the only member of the monotypic subgenus Canadidastrum. The Audubon Soc. Field guide to N.A. Wildflowers, Leach in Rhododendrons of the World, Pojar in Plants of the Pacific N.W. Coast, and 2 RHS publications, The Rhododendron Handbook 1980 and Index of Garden Plants all list it as a Rhododendron. The Western North American Species Project at http://www.wnarsp.org/ lists it with photos by Hank Helm. Their reference source is  The Rhododendron Handbook 1998; another RHS publication.
       
      I first saw it in the wild in the mid 60's and, in spite of being a relative novice with regards to Rhodies, easily identified it as a deciduous azalea by the foliage. While I don't know if a DNA study has been done, I think that R. albiflorum is generally considered to be a deciduous azalea. I know that it is difficult to grow in the garden even here in the N.W. and don't think it has been used as a parent as the flower is not much. However, I don't think that disqualifies it as an azalea.  I would be interested to know why you don't think it's an azalea. I would also be interested to know why Galle did not include R. albiflorum. I would take his word over that of Davidian.
       
      Happy New Year,
       
      Red Cavender,
      Sherwood, Oregon, zone 8

    • William C. Miller III
      Red, Yes, it may well depend on who you ask. I have only seen pictures. I can see what you mean by the leaf, but I don t see it in the flower. I don t think
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 1, 2007
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        Red,

        Yes, it may well depend on who you ask.  I have only seen pictures.  I can see what you mean by the leaf, but I don't see it in the flower.  I don't think there is any question about it being a rhododendron.  The only question is --- is it considered an azalea?  I assume Galle considered it not to be an azalea or he would have included it in his book.  There are other small leafed rhododendrons that are often mistaken for azaleas e.g.,.  dauricum.

        I guess I'm influenced by the fact that Candidastrum isn't part of the commonly recognized azalea subg. e.g. Pentanthera and Tsutsusi on which my interest is chiefly focused. 

        Then too the other common name for Rhododendron albiflorum is the White rhododendron. 

        Happy New Year.

        Bill Miller
        Bethesda, Maryland
        www.theazaleaworks.com

        Red Cavender wrote:

        Bill Miller posted the following:

        <Posted by: "William C. Miller III" bill@theazaleaworks .com   azaleabill

        <Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:53 pm (PST)

        <Red,

        <Perhaps Rhododendron albiflorum (commonly referred to as the Cascade
        <azalea) doesn't appear in Galle and elsewhere because it isn't an
        <azalea. That also would explain why occidentale is the only azalea west
        <of the Rocky Mountains.

        <Bill Miller
        <Bethesda, Maryland
        <www.theazaleaworks. com
         
        Bill,
         
        I guess that would depend on which authority you ask. Cox in Encyclopedia of Rhododendron Species lists R. albiflorum as the only member of the monotypic subgenus Canadidastrum. The Audubon Soc. Field guide to N.A. Wildflowers, Leach in Rhododendrons of the World, Pojar in Plants of the Pacific N.W. Coast, and 2 RHS publications, The Rhododendron Handbook 1980 and Index of Garden Plants all list it as a Rhododendron. The Western North American Species Project at http://www.wnarsp. org/ lists it with photos by Hank Helm. Their reference source is  The Rhododendron Handbook 1998; another RHS publication.
         
        I first saw it in the wild in the mid 60's and, in spite of being a relative novice with regards to Rhodies, easily identified it as a deciduous azalea by the foliage. While I don't know if a DNA study has been done, I think that R. albiflorum is generally considered to be a deciduous azalea. I know that it is difficult to grow in the garden even here in the N.W. and don't think it has been used as a parent as the flower is not much. However, I don't think that disqualifies it as an azalea.  I would be interested to know why you don't think it's an azalea. I would also be interested to know why Galle did not include R. albiflorum. I would take his word over that of Davidian.
         
        Happy New Year,
         
        Red Cavender,
        Sherwood, Oregon, zone 8

      • Chris Klapwijk
        Red, R. albiflorum was included in the Goetsch Eckert Hall 2005 DNA study. They placed albiflorum with albrechtii, pentaphyllum, quinquefolium, schlippenbachii
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 1, 2007
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          Red,

          R. albiflorum was included in the Goetsch Eckert Hall 2005 DNA study.
          They placed albiflorum with albrechtii, pentaphyllum, quinquefolium, schlippenbachii and vaseyi in subgenus Azaleastrum section Sciadorhodion.

          http://www.flounder.ca/FraserSouth/X-reference.asp

          Chris Klapwijk
          Surrey, B.C.



          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Red Cavender" <red@...>
          To: "Azalea Group" <azaleas@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 2:30 PM
          Subject: [AZ] Re; R. occidentale in Northwestern Mexico


          Bill Miller posted the following:
          <Posted by: "William C. Miller III" bill@... azaleabill
          <Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:53 pm (PST)
          <Red,

          <Perhaps Rhododendron albiflorum (commonly referred to as the Cascade
          <azalea) doesn't appear in Galle and elsewhere because it isn't an
          <azalea. That also would explain why occidentale is the only azalea west
          <of the Rocky Mountains.

          <Bill Miller
          <Bethesda, Maryland
          <www.theazaleaworks.com

          Bill,

          I guess that would depend on which authority you ask. Cox in Encyclopedia of Rhododendron Species lists R. albiflorum as the only member of the monotypic subgenus Canadidastrum. The Audubon Soc. Field guide to N.A. Wildflowers, Leach in Rhododendrons of the World, Pojar in Plants of the Pacific N.W. Coast, and 2 RHS publications, The Rhododendron Handbook 1980 and Index of Garden Plants all list it as a Rhododendron. The Western North American Species Project at http://www.wnarsp.org/ lists it with photos by Hank Helm. Their reference source is The Rhododendron Handbook 1998; another RHS publication.

          I first saw it in the wild in the mid 60's and, in spite of being a relative novice with regards to Rhodies, easily identified it as a deciduous azalea by the foliage. While I don't know if a DNA study has been done, I think that R. albiflorum is generally considered to be a deciduous azalea. I know that it is difficult to grow in the garden even here in the N.W. and don't think it has been used as a parent as the flower is not much. However, I don't think that disqualifies it as an azalea. I would be interested to know why you don't think it's an azalea. I would also be interested to know why Galle did not include R. albiflorum. I would take his word over that of Davidian.

          Happy New Year,

          Red Cavender,
          Sherwood, Oregon, zone 8
        • Mike Creel
          I think the Cascades Azalea is quite beautiful in blooom though I have only seen photos sent by friends (like Hank Helm near Seattle) of the plants in the
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 1, 2007
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            I think the Cascades Azalea is quite beautiful in
            blooom though I have only seen photos sent by friends
            (like Hank Helm near Seattle) of the plants in the
            wild. The drying leaves have a wonderful spicy
            fragrance. It probably falls between azaleas and
            rhododendrons somewhere, being more akin to something
            foreign to the US.

            Besides the albiflorum populations in Washington
            State, the species goes north into Canada and there is
            an under-investigated population in Colorado I
            believe, referred to as subspecis Warrenii. I think
            it also crosses the border into Montana, but no one
            has explored the rugged area there. America still has
            more exciting possibilities for plant exploration,
            particularly for different races within a species.

            Since around 2000 I have been attempting to grow the
            Cascades azalea from seeds and cuttings with some
            failures, some near-misses and some more recent
            results that seem successful. Cuttings I stuck in
            2006 in my dome pots still look good outside. I have
            learned that you must treat as a wild plant, no garden
            pampering. Let me go plant a few more seed. They
            seem to like cold-weather planting.

            Mike Creel, Lexington, South Carolina

            --- "William C. Miller III" <bill@...>
            wrote:
            > Red,
            >
            > Yes, it may well depend on who you ask. I have only
            > seen pictures. I
            > can see what you mean by the leaf, but I don't see
            > it in the flower. I
            > don't think there is any question about it being a
            > rhododendron. The
            > only question is --- is it considered an azalea? I
            > assume Galle
            > considered it not to be an azalea or he would have
            > included it in his
            > book. There are other small leafed rhododendrons
            > that are often
            > mistaken for azaleas e.g.,. dauricum.
            >
            > I guess I'm influenced by the fact that Candidastrum
            > isn't part of the
            > commonly recognized azalea subg. e.g. Pentanthera
            > and Tsutsusi on which
            > my interest is chiefly focused.
            >
            > Then too the other common name for Rhododendron
            > albiflorum is the White
            > rhododendron.
            >
            > Happy New Year.
            >
            > Bill Miller
            > Bethesda, Maryland
            > www.theazaleaworks.com
            >
          • Bob Dunning
            There is no reason to exclude albiflorum from the azaleas, no more than many of the other recognized azaleas. According to Davidian, albiflorum grows very well
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 1, 2007
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              There is no reason to exclude albiflorum from the azaleas, no more than many of the other recognized azaleas.

              According to Davidian, albiflorum grows very well in Scotland.  I have seen healthy seedlings at the RSF, which promptly stop growing when placed in the ground.  Here, at lower altitudes in its native range it does not prosper.

              Maybe that's another case of the native vermin (as in the potato blight) not being found in a pioneer land.  We do not know the various soil organisms nearly as well as we should.  It seems likely that micro-varmints are also the source of the problem with growing occidentale on the east coast.  Anyone want to try building a sterile greenhouse for the experiment?

              Maybe we just need to add something to the soil to selectively inhibit the bad bugs?  Maybe polonium would work?
              --
              Bob Dunning

              Mike Creel wrote:

              I think the Cascades Azalea is quite beautiful in
              blooom though I have only seen photos sent by friends
              (like Hank Helm near Seattle) of the plants in the
              wild. The drying leaves have a wonderful spicy
              fragrance. It probably falls between azaleas and
              rhododendrons somewhere, being more akin to something
              foreign to the US.

              Besides the albiflorum populations in Washington
              State, the species goes north into Canada and there is
              an under-investigated population in Colorado I
              believe, referred to as subspecis Warrenii. I think
              it also crosses the border into Montana, but no one
              has explored the rugged area there. America still has
              more exciting possibilities for plant exploration,
              particularly for different races within a species.

              Since around 2000 I have been attempting to grow the
              Cascades azalea from seeds and cuttings with some
              failures, some near-misses and some more recent
              results that seem successful. Cuttings I stuck in
              2006 in my dome pots still look good outside. I have
              learned that you must treat as a wild plant, no garden
              pampering. Let me go plant a few more seed. They
              seem to like cold-weather planting.

            • wspohn4@aol.com
              In a message dated 01/01/2007 11:20:13 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, bob.dunning@gmail.com writes: There is no reason to exclude albiflorum from the azaleas, no
              Message 6 of 8 , Jan 2, 2007
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                In a message dated 01/01/2007 11:20:13 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, bob.dunning@... writes:
                There is no reason to exclude albiflorum from the azaleas, no more than many of the other recognized azaleas.

                 
                I think that it is the DNA evidence that would disagree with that statement. My understanding is that albiflorum and possibly camschaticum are outliers up for possible exclusion.
                 
                Bill
              • Mike Creel
                I think I remember Ken Cox saying not long ago that albiflorum prospers no longer at his nursery in Scotland. If I mis-remember, I stand corrected. In garden
                Message 7 of 8 , Jan 2, 2007
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                  I think I remember Ken Cox saying not long ago that
                  albiflorum prospers no longer at his nursery in
                  Scotland. If I mis-remember, I stand corrected. In
                  garden culture of albiflorum I know of only two
                  continuing records, one at Pacific Rim nursery in
                  British Columbia and a nursery on an island near
                  Seattle. No others! I hear of a lot of albiflorum
                  failures, one in Nova Scotia where a well-establish
                  plant was killed after fertilizer was added.

                  My working theory on getting albiflorum, and all other
                  native (to another area) plants to become established
                  in a distinctly new "basically natural" environment is
                  1) to start seedlings, cuttings or small plants
                  outdoors; 2) to innoculate the growing media with
                  closest relative from the new site; to avoid chemical
                  amendments; 3) to avoid sterile media; to avoid
                  greenhouse or coldframe culture; 4) to choose outdoor
                  planting sites wisely where closely related plants
                  prosper, and 5) to let Mother Nature take it from
                  there, helping the new plant to reinitialize its links
                  to the soil environment.

                  Of course I might be wrong, but "knock on wood," I
                  have all 16 native azalea species in the ground at
                  present, seemingly content and adequately vigorous. A
                  Rhododendron macrophyllum seedling planted in December
                  2001 (or 2000) in a pot is now branching. I grow much
                  Rhododendron maximum, RH. chapmanii, Rh. minus,
                  Leiophyllum buxifolium, Elliottia racemosa,many native
                  vacciniums, cultivated forms of catawbiense and I have
                  catawbiense wild collected seeds up and growing
                  outside. I could go on. When someone tells me I cannot
                  root or grow something that is just a challenge,
                  really encouragement, like throwing Brer Rabbit into
                  the briar patch.

                  I think we do too much garden assisting and coddling
                  of wild-form plants (or plants not long removed from
                  the wild) and not enough of letting them work things
                  out. And that is a big reason why the plants fail.
                  Plants seldom make mistakes, but people trying to grow
                  or propagate them too (me most of all).

                  Left to their own resources a plant will usually
                  germinate its seeds and grow in a proper setting for
                  longevity. Once I did question the wisdom of a small
                  three-inch tall flammeum azalea growing in captured
                  humus in a knothole of a tree at my eye level where a
                  Decumaria vine was climbing. I saved that little
                  plant, a flammeum hybrid, and it is now huge, compact
                  and beautiful, tagged Knothole Pink. Glad I did.

                  Mike Creel, Lexington, SC

                  --- Bob Dunning <bob.dunning@...> wrote:

                  > There is no reason to exclude albiflorum from the
                  > azaleas, no more than
                  > many of the other recognized azaleas.
                  >
                  > According to Davidian, albiflorum grows very well in
                  > Scotland. I have
                  > seen healthy seedlings at the RSF, which promptly
                  > stop growing when
                  > placed in the ground. Here, at lower altitudes in
                  > its native range it
                  > does not prosper.
                  >
                  > Maybe that's another case of the native vermin (as
                  > in the potato blight)
                  > not being found in a pioneer land. We do not know
                  > the various soil
                  > organisms nearly as well as we should. It seems
                  > likely that
                  > micro-varmints are also the source of the problem
                  > with growing
                  > occidentale on the east coast. Anyone want to try
                  > building a sterile
                  > greenhouse for the experiment?
                  >
                  > Maybe we just need to add something to the soil to
                  > selectively inhibit
                  > the bad bugs? Maybe polonium would work?
                  > --
                  > Bob Dunning
                  >
                  > Mike Creel wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I think the Cascades Azalea is quite beautiful in
                  > > blooom though I have only seen photos sent by
                  > friends
                  > > (like Hank Helm near Seattle) of the plants in the
                  > > wild. The drying leaves have a wonderful spicy
                  > > fragrance. It probably falls between azaleas and
                  > > rhododendrons somewhere, being more akin to
                  > something
                  > > foreign to the US.
                  > >
                  > > Besides the albiflorum populations in Washington
                  > > State, the species goes north into Canada and
                  > there is
                  > > an under-investigated population in Colorado I
                  > > believe, referred to as subspecis Warrenii. I
                  > think
                  > > it also crosses the border into Montana, but no
                  > one
                  > > has explored the rugged area there. America still
                  > has
                  > > more exciting possibilities for plant exploration,
                  > > particularly for different races within a species.
                  > >
                  > > Since around 2000 I have been attempting to grow
                  > the
                  > > Cascades azalea from seeds and cuttings with some
                  > > failures, some near-misses and some more recent
                  > > results that seem successful. Cuttings I stuck in
                  > > 2006 in my dome pots still look good outside. I
                  > have
                  > > learned that you must treat as a wild plant, no
                  > garden
                  > > pampering. Let me go plant a few more seed. They
                  > > seem to like cold-weather planting.
                  > >
                  > > Mike Creel, Lexington, South Carolina__
                  > >
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                • Ted Stecki
                  The Polly Hill nakahari azaleas are low growing and grow over walls etc. They bloom in NJ around 1 June. Check them out..... Ted Stecki 90 Kresson-Gibbsboro
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jan 3, 2007
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                    The Polly Hill 'nakahari' azaleas are low growing and grow over walls etc. They bloom in NJ around 1 June. Check them out..... 
                    Ted Stecki
                    90 Kresson-Gibbsboro Rd
                    Voorhees, NJ 08043
                    Tel : 856 784 6203
                    Cell : 609 314 5960
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 10:14 PM
                    Subject: [AZ] Rhododendron albiflorum - Cascades Azalea

                    I think the Cascades Azalea is quite beautiful in
                    blooom though I have only seen photos sent by friends
                    (like Hank Helm near Seattle) of the plants in the
                    wild. The drying leaves have a wonderful spicy
                    fragrance. It probably falls between azaleas and
                    rhododendrons somewhere, being more akin to something
                    foreign to the US.

                    Besides the albiflorum populations in Washington
                    State, the species goes north into Canada and there is
                    an under-investigated population in Colorado I
                    believe, referred to as subspecis Warrenii. I think
                    it also crosses the border into Montana, but no one
                    has explored the rugged area there. America still has
                    more exciting possibilities for plant exploration,
                    particularly for different races within a species.

                    Since around 2000 I have been attempting to grow the
                    Cascades azalea from seeds and cuttings with some
                    failures, some near-misses and some more recent
                    results that seem successful. Cuttings I stuck in
                    2006 in my dome pots still look good outside. I have
                    learned that you must treat as a wild plant, no garden
                    pampering. Let me go plant a few more seed. They
                    seem to like cold-weather planting.

                    Mike Creel, Lexington, South Carolina

                    --- "William C. Miller III" <bill@theazaleaworks .com>
                    wrote:
                    > Red,
                    >
                    > Yes, it may well depend on who you ask. I have only
                    > seen pictures. I
                    > can see what you mean by the leaf, but I don't see
                    > it in the flower. I
                    > don't think there is any question about it being a
                    > rhododendron. The
                    > only question is --- is it considered an azalea? I
                    > assume Galle
                    > considered it not to be an azalea or he would have
                    > included it in his
                    > book. There are other small leafed rhododendrons
                    > that are often
                    > mistaken for azaleas e.g.,. dauricum.
                    >
                    > I guess I'm influenced by the fact that Candidastrum
                    > isn't part of the
                    > commonly recognized azalea subg. e.g. Pentanthera
                    > and Tsutsusi on which
                    > my interest is chiefly focused.
                    >
                    > Then too the other common name for Rhododendron
                    > albiflorum is the White
                    > rhododendron.
                    >
                    > Happy New Year.
                    >
                    > Bill Miller
                    > Bethesda, Maryland
                    > www.theazaleaworks. com
                    >

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