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Re: [AZ] azalea culture regions

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  • PrecursorS@aol.com
    In a message dated 11/29/2003 11:58:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, barrysperling@ix.netcom.com writes: I have a hinodigiri in zone 7a 10 mi south of DC. we do
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 29, 2003
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      In a message dated 11/29/2003 11:58:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, barrysperling@... writes:
      I have a hinodigiri in zone 7a 10 mi south of DC.
      we do too, 50 miles south of DC.
       
      Aviv Goldsmith, z7a
    • Bob Stelloh
      At 12:18 AM -0500 on 11/30/03, PrecursorS@aol.com wrote ... Sounds like it is taking off. Before it does, we would benefit from some groundrules. The
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 29, 2003
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        At 12:18 AM -0500 on 11/30/03, PrecursorS@... wrote
        >I have a hinodigiri in zone 7a 10 mi south of DC.
        >
        >we do too, 50 miles south of DC.

        Sounds like it is taking off. Before it does, we would benefit from
        some groundrules. The distribution maps for native plants, such as in
        the Vascular Flora of the Carolinas, or in Kathleen Kron's thesis,
        are always by county. I suspect because it is a nice size to deal
        with on a map (bigger than a city, smaller than a state).

        So I propose groundrule 1: name the county and state, eg, Henderson, NC.

        Wouldn't hurt to mention what you think your USDA zone is, eg, 7.

        Also would be good to say how well your plant is doing on, say, a
        scale of 1 to 3, where 1=good, 2=fair, 3=poor.

        So a record could be "Hinodegiri, 7, Henderson, NC, 2" which could
        work in a spreadsheet as long as each field is consistently followed
        by a comma.

        Barry, you gonna be the scribe? And the pin-sticker, once you find a
        map? What we really want is a US map with clickable sections or
        states, which would then blow up to show the counties.

        But the first thing we need is the data. For maybe some
        representative cultivars of the major hybrid groups? I think trying
        to nail them all down is too big a job, is why I suggest
        representative cultivars.

        Take a look at the "plant group/species" button at
        <http://www.azaleas.org/azenter.html> for a machine-readable list of
        the groups and species listed in Galle. That's a long list, but many
        fewer are what I would think would qualify as "major".

        Regards,
        Bob Stelloh Hendersonville North Carolina USDA Zone 7
      • JOT
        hate to be scrooge,but...........this is going to get out of hand unless we sit back and give this some thought. right now, i certainly don t have the answer.
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 30, 2003
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          hate to be scrooge,but...........this is going to get out of hand unless we
          sit back and give this some thought. right now, i certainly don't have the
          answer.

          jim thornton

          yeah, i got hino and hundreds of other varieties ..... and i'm just a pea in
          a pod
          see what i mean!
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Bob Stelloh" <bstelloh@...>
          To: <azaleas@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 1:24 AM
          Subject: Re: [AZ] azalea culture regions


          > At 12:18 AM -0500 on 11/30/03, PrecursorS@... wrote
          > >I have a hinodigiri in zone 7a 10 mi south of DC.
          > >
          > >we do too, 50 miles south of DC.
          >
          > Sounds like it is taking off. Before it does, we would benefit from
          > some groundrules. The distribution maps for native plants, such as in
          > the Vascular Flora of the Carolinas, or in Kathleen Kron's thesis,
          > are always by county. I suspect because it is a nice size to deal
          > with on a map (bigger than a city, smaller than a state).
          >
          > So I propose groundrule 1: name the county and state, eg, Henderson, NC.
          >
          > Wouldn't hurt to mention what you think your USDA zone is, eg, 7.
          >
          > Also would be good to say how well your plant is doing on, say, a
          > scale of 1 to 3, where 1=good, 2=fair, 3=poor.
          >
          > So a record could be "Hinodegiri, 7, Henderson, NC, 2" which could
          > work in a spreadsheet as long as each field is consistently followed
          > by a comma.
          >
          > Barry, you gonna be the scribe? And the pin-sticker, once you find a
          > map? What we really want is a US map with clickable sections or
          > states, which would then blow up to show the counties.
          >
          > But the first thing we need is the data. For maybe some
          > representative cultivars of the major hybrid groups? I think trying
          > to nail them all down is too big a job, is why I suggest
          > representative cultivars.
          >
          > Take a look at the "plant group/species" button at
          > <http://www.azaleas.org/azenter.html> for a machine-readable list of
          > the groups and species listed in Galle. That's a long list, but many
          > fewer are what I would think would qualify as "major".
          >
          > Regards,
          > Bob Stelloh Hendersonville North Carolina USDA Zone 7
          >
          >
          > When you reply to this email, please quote its relevant part(s) only, as
          context, and delete the rest - especially this line and the Yahoo lines.
          >
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          >
        • Don Hyatt
          I think it would probably help Ken Cox if we in the ASA polled our members to first identify our favorite plants and best doers rather than just representative
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 30, 2003
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            I think it would probably help Ken Cox if we in the ASA polled our
            members to first identify our favorite plants and best doers rather than
            just representative cultivars. We could organize our initial survey
            both by geographical region and by hybrid group. Then we can do a more
            formal assessment to see how widespread some of these favorite varieties
            are in their adaptability. Otherwise the data collection seems unwieldy
            to me, even with computer asistance. With so many thousands of azalea
            varieties, Ken will not be able to provide descriptions or photographs
            of them all. At least we can give him some recommendations from the
            combined wisdom of our membership.

            Varieties within most hybrid groups do differ in hardiness. We can
            usually make some generalizations but we often do not know how tough
            specific clones are until we try them out. For instance, the
            Mossholder-Bristow hybrid 'Easter Parade' was derived from Belgian
            Indian and Rutherford hybrids in the florist trade, and developed in
            southern California near San Bernardino. It looks like it should die
            with the tomato plants at the first frost. However, it is perfectly
            hardy here in the western Washington D.C. suburbs in Fairfax County, VA,
            and never fails to bloom. I recently saw George Ring's 'Fairfax'
            growing vigorously in Salem, New Hampshire, at the home of Sally and
            John Perkins. Most evergreen azaleas have a difficult time in northern
            New England, but then Sally and John seem to be able to grow everything.

            'Hinodegiri' is a good doer for me too. I like it because the flowers
            seem to last much longer than other early red Kurume types. Some people
            do object to its bluish red color which does clash when planted against
            a red brick home. However, it is a perfect match in the woods with the
            Gable rhododendron 'Atroflo' and they usually bloom about the same time.

            Don Hyatt
            McLean, VA Zone 7a (6b in a bad year)
            Don@...

            Bob Stelloh wrote:

            > At 12:18 AM -0500 on 11/30/03, PrecursorS@... wrote
            > >I have a hinodigiri in zone 7a 10 mi south of DC.
            > >
            > >we do too, 50 miles south of DC.
            >
            > Sounds like it is taking off. Before it does, we would benefit from
            > some groundrules. The distribution maps for native plants, such as in
            > the Vascular Flora of the Carolinas, or in Kathleen Kron's thesis,
            > are always by county. I suspect because it is a nice size to deal
            > with on a map (bigger than a city, smaller than a state).
            > ...


            >
            > But the first thing we need is the data. For maybe some
            > representative cultivars of the major hybrid groups? I think trying
            > to nail them all down is too big a job, is why I suggest
            > representative cultivars.
            >
            > Take a look at the "plant group/species" button at
            > <http://www.azaleas.org/azenter.html> for a machine-readable list of
            > the groups and species listed in Galle. That's a long list, but many
            > fewer are what I would think would qualify as "major".
            >
            > Regards,
            > Bob Stelloh Hendersonville North Carolina USDA Zone 7
            >
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          • Barry Sperling
            I was thinking beyond the help we might provide for Ken Cox, which we might not be able to do well in the limited time available for his deadlines, so I took
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 30, 2003
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              I was thinking beyond the help we might provide for Ken Cox, which we
              might not be able to do well in the limited time available for his
              deadlines, so I took the discussion on a tangent ( sorry! :) ). Cox's
              work was just the inspiration for the idea that such maps would be a
              worthy goal of the ASA, one amenable to volunteer work, to be
              continuously developed, made available at some time on our website, of
              interest both to researchers and the public.
              I would have no objection if we did a trial balloon with hinodigiri, as
              a feasability study for future work. People could email me directly,
              off-list, with their info in the format that Bob suggested. Someone
              would have to provide me with a county-detailed map of the US that could
              be filled in by computer. I would also have to be able to identify the
              named county on the map. The currently updated map could be posted on
              the website at intervals.
              What do you think?
              Barry

              >
              >
            • Barry Sperling
              Aviv Goldsmith pointed out that there are maps in Microsoft Excel that respond to zipcodes, so if people want to send me, offlist, their zipcode, zone #, and
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 30, 2003
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                Aviv Goldsmith pointed out that there are maps in Microsoft Excel that
                respond to zipcodes, so if people want to send me, offlist, their
                zipcode, zone #, and Bob's 1-2-3 designation ( 1 = good, 2 = fair and 3
                = poor ) I will enter it into a spreadsheet and it will appear on the
                map. This is for your hinodigiri.
                Barry

                >
                >
              • Bob Stelloh
                At 8:43 AM -0500 on 11/30/03, Don Hyatt wrote ... Ah! Wisdom prevails! I think that s a great idea. Can you suggest how it might work? Like, just ask folks to
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 30, 2003
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                  At 8:43 AM -0500 on 11/30/03, Don Hyatt wrote
                  >I think it would probably help Ken Cox if we in the ASA polled our
                  >members to first identify our favorite plants and best doers rather than
                  >just representative cultivars. We could organize our initial survey
                  >both by geographical region and by hybrid group. Then we can do a more
                  >formal assessment to see how widespread some of these favorite varieties
                  >are in their adaptability.

                  Ah! Wisdom prevails! I think that's a great idea.

                  Can you suggest how it might work? Like, just ask folks to name their
                  favorites and best doers (and where they live) and go from that list?
                  If so, I can send an email to all our members as well as it appearing
                  on the azaleas mail list (the list only has about 100 members; about
                  550 or so of our members have email addresses).

                  Questions:
                  -how many plants to ask each member to identify? 1? 10? 25? No limit?
                  [I mildly favor "no limit", counting on laziness to serve as a
                  natural limiter.]
                  -if more than 1, ask them to sort by "most favorite . . . least
                  favorite"? [It probably doesn't matter, as the total number of times
                  a name appears on the lists from the different folks will create the
                  "most favorite" anyway.]
                  -how to identify location? [Zip code sounds pretty good - we could
                  easily turn that into almost any other political/geographic
                  subdivision if needed.]
                  -any other info to ask for? [My earlier idea of 1,2,3 for condition
                  isn't needed if we are asking for "best doers", which seems like a
                  much better idea.]
                  -should we have a time limit to reply?

                  Or, better yet, just draft me an email to send to all the ASA members.

                  Regards,
                  Bob Stelloh Hendersonville North Carolina USDA Zone 7
                • Don Hyatt
                  Bob and others, To me, the first thing we need to do is generate a list of our favorite azaleas. I think that should almost be done chapter by chapter. Some
                  Message 8 of 14 , Dec 1, 2003
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                    Bob and others,
                    To me, the first thing we need to do is generate a list of our favorite
                    azaleas. I think that should almost be done chapter by chapter. Some
                    work can be done by email but also we need to personally contact people
                    with large collections who may not be online. We really need their
                    input and only local people will know who those growers are. We may
                    need to get some chapter volunteers to actually go out and meet with
                    local growers since sometimes people do no not reply to mail surveys
                    either. About 20 years ago, Frank White conducted an ASA survey to
                    identify the top 20 Glenn Dales and I know there was a real effort to
                    seek people who had large collections to get their nominations for the
                    "eye catchers" and good doers. I think we should do the same with this
                    survey but make it more comprehensive this time.

                    I agree that we should not try to limit to a specific number of
                    favorites but I would suggest that we ask people to not nominate more
                    that 10% of the azalea varieties they have grown in their own gardens.
                    We have people in Northern Virginia such as Phil and Frances Louer and
                    Jane Newman who have huge collections, many thousands of varieties.
                    Their top 10% lists will really be valuable for identifying new things
                    that many of us have not tried as well as older varieties we may have
                    forgotten. Jane Newman does not have email but I would be happy to
                    contact her and get her preferences. Incidentally, Jane recently
                    provided me slides she has been taking of the Glenn Dales over the past
                    decade or so in an effort to help identify the various clones. They are
                    wonderful photos and although not all 454 varieties are represented, it
                    doesn't seem like most of them are there. So far I have scanned in
                    about 350 hi-resolution images and I am not yet halfway done. She has
                    really done a monumental service for our society and this will be a
                    tremendous resource for us all when it is finished.

                    Back to your questions...

                    I don't see a need to sort "most favorite" to "least favorite" as long
                    as people are giving us just their top 10% lists. We could ask for
                    their "super favorites", say the top 10% of the things on their list
                    which would be indicating the top one percent of the plants they grow.
                    That would be very interesting to see.

                    As for location, I think zip code is a great idea. That can be
                    converted to almost any other format but we probably already have
                    addresses of our local people anyway. The zip code will be essential to
                    phase 2 when we see how widely things are grown.

                    We should probably record hybrid group on these varieties since we will
                    eventually want to subdivide along those lines.

                    We do need a time limit but I am not sure what that should be. Maybe we
                    should try to complete the first phase by February or March so we give
                    ASA Chapters to conduct local surveys, possibly as part of a regular
                    meeting. Once we generate the list of "goodies", we will then want to
                    conduct a secondary survey to see how widely certain varieties are grown.

                    Those are my thoughts so far.

                    Don Hyatt

                    Bob Stelloh wrote:

                    > At 8:43 AM -0500 on 11/30/03, Don Hyatt wrote
                    > >I think it would probably help Ken Cox if we in the ASA polled our
                    > >members to first identify our favorite plants and best doers rather than
                    > >just representative cultivars. We could organize our initial survey
                    > >both by geographical region and by hybrid group. Then we can do a more
                    > >formal assessment to see how widespread some of these favorite varieties
                    > >are in their adaptability.
                    >
                    > Ah! Wisdom prevails! I think that's a great idea.
                    >
                    > Can you suggest how it might work? Like, just ask folks to name their
                    > favorites and best doers (and where they live) and go from that list?
                    > If so, I can send an email to all our members as well as it appearing
                    > on the azaleas mail list (the list only has about 100 members; about
                    > 550 or so of our members have email addresses).
                    >
                    > Questions:
                    > -how many plants to ask each member to identify? 1? 10? 25? No limit?
                    > [I mildly favor "no limit", counting on laziness to serve as a
                    > natural limiter.]
                    > -if more than 1, ask them to sort by "most favorite . . . least
                    > favorite"? [It probably doesn't matter, as the total number of times
                    > a name appears on the lists from the different folks will create the
                    > "most favorite" anyway.]
                    > -how to identify location? [Zip code sounds pretty good - we could
                    > easily turn that into almost any other political/geographic
                    > subdivision if needed.]
                    > -any other info to ask for? [My earlier idea of 1,2,3 for condition
                    > isn't needed if we are asking for "best doers", which seems like a
                    > much better idea.]
                    > -should we have a time limit to reply?
                    >
                    > Or, better yet, just draft me an email to send to all the ASA members.
                    >
                    > Regards,
                    > Bob Stelloh Hendersonville North Carolina USDA Zone 7
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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                    >
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                  • Barry Sperling
                    I think that the goal of getting range maps, which currently don t exist ( ? ), can be overwhelmed with the long sequence of steps listed, starting with the
                    Message 9 of 14 , Dec 1, 2003
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                      I think that the goal of getting range maps, which currently don't exist
                      ( ? ), can be overwhelmed with the long sequence of steps listed,
                      starting with the attempt to replicate the "good doer" list which has
                      appeared in Galle, the ARS journal ( covering azaleas, too), and
                      probably the Azalean. By the time that we poll everybody by email, get
                      feedback from clubs, contact people with large collections, get
                      volunteers to meet with local growers, get all of the date collected and
                      integrated then ... we have another good-doer list. Nice to have, but a
                      lot of work that will not tell us much we don't know and haven't seen
                      before. Now, if Jane was to write an article about "My Favorite Glenn
                      Dales", that would be an enjoyable read ( with accompanying pics! ).
                      But...what don't we have at all? Range maps. They would be
                      biologically interesting and a guide to people considering their next
                      purchase. What we need first is a feasability study: can we make ONE
                      range map? The prior suggestion to use hinodigiri is fine and the prior
                      suggestion ( Bob's? ) to use a 1-2-3 ( good-fair-poor ) rating scale
                      along with it is good, too. If this works, then we can expand it to
                      more plants, more people doing the compilations, etc.
                      This list seems smaller than the old list, so not many people may
                      contribute. Perhaps it needs a request for data in the Azalean. What
                      do you think?
                      Barry


                      Don Hyatt wrote:

                      >Bob and others,
                      >To me, the first thing we need to do is generate a list of our favorite
                      >azaleas. I think that should almost be done chapter by chapter. Some
                      >work can be done by email but also we need to personally contact people
                      >with large collections who may not be online. We really need their
                      >input and only local people will know who those growers are. We may
                      >need to get some chapter volunteers to actually go out and meet with
                      >local growers since sometimes people do no not reply to mail surveys
                      >either. About 20 years ago, Frank White conducted an ASA survey to
                      >identify the top 20 Glenn Dales and I know there was a real effort to
                      >seek people who had large collections to get their nominations for the
                      >"eye catchers" and good doers. I think we should do the same with this
                      >survey but make it more comprehensive this time.
                      >
                      >I agree that we should not try to limit to a specific number of
                      >favorites but I would suggest that we ask people to not nominate more
                      >that 10% of the azalea varieties they have grown in their own gardens.
                      >We have people in Northern Virginia such as Phil and Frances Louer and
                      >Jane Newman who have huge collections, many thousands of varieties.
                      >Their top 10% lists will really be valuable for identifying new things
                      >that many of us have not tried as well as older varieties we may have
                      >forgotten. Jane Newman does not have email but I would be happy to
                      >contact her and get her preferences. Incidentally, Jane recently
                      >provided me slides she has been taking of the Glenn Dales over the past
                      >decade or so in an effort to help identify the various clones. They are
                      >wonderful photos and although not all 454 varieties are represented, it
                      >doesn't seem like most of them are there. So far I have scanned in
                      >about 350 hi-resolution images and I am not yet halfway done. She has
                      >really done a monumental service for our society and this will be a
                      >tremendous resource for us all when it is finished.
                      >
                      >Back to your questions...
                      >
                      >I don't see a need to sort "most favorite" to "least favorite" as long
                      >as people are giving us just their top 10% lists. We could ask for
                      >their "super favorites", say the top 10% of the things on their list
                      >which would be indicating the top one percent of the plants they grow.
                      >That would be very interesting to see.
                      >
                      >As for location, I think zip code is a great idea. That can be
                      >converted to almost any other format but we probably already have
                      >addresses of our local people anyway. The zip code will be essential to
                      >phase 2 when we see how widely things are grown.
                      >
                      >We should probably record hybrid group on these varieties since we will
                      >eventually want to subdivide along those lines.
                      >
                      >We do need a time limit but I am not sure what that should be. Maybe we
                      >should try to complete the first phase by February or March so we give
                      >ASA Chapters to conduct local surveys, possibly as part of a regular
                      >meeting. Once we generate the list of "goodies", we will then want to
                      >conduct a secondary survey to see how widely certain varieties are grown.
                      >
                      >Those are my thoughts so far.
                      >
                      >Don Hyatt
                      >
                      >Bob Stelloh wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >>At 8:43 AM -0500 on 11/30/03, Don Hyatt wrote
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>>I think it would probably help Ken Cox if we in the ASA polled our
                      >>>members to first identify our favorite plants and best doers rather than
                      >>>just representative cultivars. We could organize our initial survey
                      >>>both by geographical region and by hybrid group. Then we can do a more
                      >>>formal assessment to see how widespread some of these favorite varieties
                      >>>are in their adaptability.
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>Ah! Wisdom prevails! I think that's a great idea.
                      >>
                      >>Can you suggest how it might work? Like, just ask folks to name their
                      >>favorites and best doers (and where they live) and go from that list?
                      >>If so, I can send an email to all our members as well as it appearing
                      >>on the azaleas mail list (the list only has about 100 members; about
                      >>550 or so of our members have email addresses).
                      >>
                      >>Questions:
                      >>-how many plants to ask each member to identify? 1? 10? 25? No limit?
                      >>[I mildly favor "no limit", counting on laziness to serve as a
                      >>natural limiter.]
                      >>-if more than 1, ask them to sort by "most favorite . . . least
                      >>favorite"? [It probably doesn't matter, as the total number of times
                      >>a name appears on the lists from the different folks will create the
                      >>"most favorite" anyway.]
                      >>-how to identify location? [Zip code sounds pretty good - we could
                      >>easily turn that into almost any other political/geographic
                      >>subdivision if needed.]
                      >>-any other info to ask for? [My earlier idea of 1,2,3 for condition
                      >>isn't needed if we are asking for "best doers", which seems like a
                      >>much better idea.]
                      >>-should we have a time limit to reply?
                      >>
                      >>Or, better yet, just draft me an email to send to all the ASA members.
                      >>
                      >>Regards,
                      >>Bob Stelloh Hendersonville North Carolina USDA Zone 7
                      >>
                      >>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                      >>ADVERTISEMENT
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                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
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                      >>as context, and delete the rest - especially this line and the Yahoo
                      >>lines.
                      >>
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                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
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                      >><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >When you reply to this email, please quote its relevant part(s) only, as context, and delete the rest - especially this line and the Yahoo lines.
                      >
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                    • Don Hyatt
                      I guess there are two goals here: one to establish range maps for familiar azalea cultivars and another to provide Ken Cox with some guidanceon azaleas when he
                      Message 10 of 14 , Dec 2, 2003
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                        I guess there are two goals here: one to establish range maps for
                        familiar azalea cultivars and another to provide Ken Cox with some
                        guidanceon azaleas when he writes his upcoming book. Both are valid
                        areas of investigation and worthy projects for the ASA.

                        Most of the "good doer" lists I have seen (Galle, etc.) were done 20
                        years ago. None of the newer varieties are even mentioned. From my
                        perspective, I would like to know from others which are the best
                        Greenwoods, Holly Hills, Schroeders, new Kurumes, Aromis, Sommervilles,
                        Beasley hybrids, etc., for our area. I don't have room to grow them all.

                        From previous email I have seen, it appears that Ken Cox wants to
                        produce a book similar to "Greer's Guidebook to Available Rhododendrons"
                        that will include evergreen and deciduous azaleas in addition to the
                        newer rhododendrons such as the Delp hybrids. He cannot grow them all
                        and in fact, many of the evergreen and deciduous azalea cultivars do not
                        grow well in Scotland because their climate is too cool. I think our
                        ASA members are in the best position to give him some recommendations
                        for the better selections by region.

                        Don Hyatt
                        McLean, VA
                        Don@...


                        Barry Sperling wrote:

                        > I think that the goal of getting range maps, which currently don't exist
                        > ( ? ), can be overwhelmed with the long sequence of steps listed,
                        > starting with the attempt to replicate the "good doer" list which has
                        > appeared in Galle, the ARS journal ( covering azaleas, too), and
                        > probably the Azalean. By the time that we poll everybody by email, get
                        > feedback from clubs, contact people with large collections, get
                        > volunteers to meet with local growers, get all of the date collected and
                        > integrated then ... we have another good-doer list. Nice to have, but a
                        > lot of work that will not tell us much we don't know and haven't seen
                        > before. Now, if Jane was to write an article about "My Favorite Glenn
                        > Dales", that would be an enjoyable read ( with accompanying pics! ).
                        > But...what don't we have at all? Range maps. They would be
                        > biologically interesting and a guide to people considering their next
                        > purchase. What we need first is a feasability study: can we make ONE
                        > range map? The prior suggestion to use hinodigiri is fine and the prior
                        > suggestion ( Bob's? ) to use a 1-2-3 ( good-fair-poor ) rating scale
                        > along with it is good, too. If this works, then we can expand it to
                        > more plants, more people doing the compilations, etc.
                        > This list seems smaller than the old list, so not many people may
                        > contribute. Perhaps it needs a request for data in the Azalean. What
                        > do you think?
                        > Barry
                        >
                        >
                        >
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