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Re: [AZ] ponticum possibilities in the South? (ponticum as a pestin UK)

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  • Joe Schild
    I think that the British Isles root a lot of plants. Grafting rhododendrons was done in the USA until the 1960 s when rooting became more common. When I
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 4, 2006
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      "I think that the British Isles root a lot
      of plants.  Grafting rhododendrons was done in the USA until the
      1960's when rooting became more common."
       
      When I first started collecting and propagating rhododendrons and azaleas in the mid-sixties, most of the first rhodos I saw in the various garden centers were grafted plants. Clifton Gann explained it to me this way. Most rhodos at that time shipped to the eastern US were imported and that required them to be held at the USDA quarantine station where they were subjected to a gas chamber using Methyl Bromide. A lot of the Exbury types were also subjected to the same treatment. Rhodo grafted plants were usually imported as bare root type and that required a vigorous root stock, thus R. ponticum was the root stock of choice. A lot of the Exbury type azaleas were also, in a lot of cases, bare root and then once passing quarantine they were re potted.
       
      Clifton once received several hundred Knap Hill hybrids all US potted in bushel baskets and those too were imported. From what I saw of the plants, he told me that most of the deciduous azaleas were mound rooted, not from shoot cuttings. I recall seeing grafted deciduous azaleas in several large garden centers also. This would have been in 1967.
       
      It is amazing that any imported plant survived the gas chambers, for I used the same stuff to sterilize my planting beds until 1974 or 1975. I switched to sun sterilization and preemergants under poly. Importataion wained for a while when the large west coast nurseries started shipping to the east, such as Van Veen, though they had shipped for some time to select custormers/collectors in the NE US, and they rooted nearly all the plants in hundreds of Nearing Frames.

       
      Joe Schild-Hixson, TN USDA Zone 7a
      Ask a friend to join the Azalea Society of America!
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: 4/4/06 11:13:28 AM
      Subject: Re: [AZ] ponticum possibilities in the South? (ponticum as a pestin UK)

      Mike Creel <mikeacreel@...> wrote:

      >Thank you for an excellent reply on the aspects of
      >Rhodendron ponticum as a pest species in the UK.  What
      >is the native habitat of ponticum like, and does it
      >form extensive colonies there? Are many of the US
      >large leaf evergreen rhodies grafted routinely and to
      >what?  Are there any rhododendrons that have to be
      >grafted due to difficulty in cloning otherwise.

      R. ponticum looks somewhat like R. macrophylum does in the west, or
      R. catawbiense does in the east.  The three are related.  The
      invasive R. ponticum is much more aggressive.  I attribute that in
      part to the vigor it has gained from crossing with catawbiense.  You
      will find it along coastal estuaries, along highways, and covering
      hillsides.  I would liken its spread to that of the Himalayan
      blackberry, both in size and in spread.  I didn't check the roots to
      see if they were colonies, but suspect that it is part that and part
      seed.  The colonies help prevent the eradication and the seed
      facilitates the spread.

      If you stay in parks in the UK and go to the naturalist talks, they
      are frequently about how to kill rhododendrons.  Sort of strange to
      Yankees.  Their technique seems to be to cut them down and paint the
      stumps with concentrated roundup.  Then they come back numerous times
      and repeat the process as shoots start coming up.  Eventually it
      stops coming up.  Meanwhile, the naturalized hillsides they haven't
      saved from the ravages of ponticum are beautiful in the spring to
      those who don't know better.  Sort of like Scotch broom in the West
      Coast is beautiful to those of us from the East who don't have to do
      battle with it.

      I have posted photos of ponticum in Scotland on the group website:

      http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/azaleas/photos/browse/78f0

      Grafting is the norm at Hachmann's Nursery in Germany and very
      unusual in the USA.  They are never concerned whether a plant can be
      grown on its own roots in Germany and we never consider whether it
      can be grafted in the USA.  It is two completely different cultures.
      I know that there is movement in Europe toward rooting cuttings and
      perhaps some slight movement in the USA toward grafting plants that
      are difficult to root.  Europe has the technology and expertise to
      root cuttings since that is the way they produce their rootstocks,
      but they don't want to have their gardeners fight with  alkaline
      soils and root diseases.  I think that the British Isles root a lot
      of plants.  Grafting rhododendrons was done in the USA until the
      1960's when rooting became more common.
      --
      Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA   USA  Zone 6

      Visit my Rhododendron and Azalea web pages at:
      http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman/rhody.html

      Also visit the Rhododendron and Azalea Bookstore at:
      http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman/rhodybooks.html
    • Mike Creel
      THis is all quite interesting to me. I am kind of an anti-grafting gardener, but if it would facilitate hybridization, I would do it. What rootstock were the
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 4, 2006
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        THis is all quite interesting to me. I am kind of an
        anti-grafting gardener, but if it would facilitate
        hybridization, I would do it.

        What rootstock were the deciduous azaleas grafted
        onto.?

        Can decidous azaleas or rhododendrons be grafted onto
        evergreen rhododendrons and vice-versa?

        Mike Creel, SC

        --- Joe Schild <azaleajoe@...> wrote:

        > "I think that the British Isles root a lot
        > of plants. Grafting rhododendrons was done in the
        > USA until the
        > 1960's when rooting became more common."
        >
        > When I first started collecting and propagating
        > rhododendrons and azaleas in the mid-sixties, most
        > of the first rhodos I saw in the various garden
        > centers were grafted plants. Clifton Gann explained
        > it to me this way. Most rhodos at that time shipped
        > to the eastern US were imported and that required
        > them to be held at the USDA quarantine station where
        > they were subjected to a gas chamber using Methyl
        > Bromide. A lot of the Exbury types were also
        > subjected to the same treatment. Rhodo grafted
        > plants were usually imported as bare root type and
        > that required a vigorous root stock, thus R.
        > ponticum was the root stock of choice. A lot of the
        > Exbury type azaleas were also, in a lot of cases,
        > bare root and then once passing quarantine they were
        > re potted.
        >
        > Clifton once received several hundred Knap Hill
        > hybrids all US potted in bushel baskets and those
        > too were imported. From what I saw of the plants, he
        > told me that most of the deciduous azaleas were
        > mound rooted, not from shoot cuttings. I recall
        > seeing grafted deciduous azaleas in several large
        > garden centers also. This would have been in 1967.
        >
        > It is amazing that any imported plant survived the
        > gas chambers, for I used the same stuff to sterilize
        > my planting beds until 1974 or 1975. I switched to
        > sun sterilization and preemergants under poly.
        > Importataion wained for a while when the large west
        > coast nurseries started shipping to the east, such
        > as Van Veen, though they had shipped for some time
        > to select custormers/collectors in the NE US, and
        > they rooted nearly all the plants in hundreds of
        > Nearing Frames.
        >
        > Joe Schild-Hixson, TN USDA Zone 7a
        > Ask a friend to join the Azalea Society of America!
        > http://www.azaleas.org
        >

        __________________________________________________
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      • Joe Schild
        Mike, I do not know what the root stock was with the deciduous azaleas. Because of the graft union I knew they were grafted. At one time I had a Gibralter
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 4, 2006
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          Mike,
          I do not know what the root stock was with the deciduous azaleas. Because of the graft union I knew they were grafted. At one time I had a 'Gibralter' that was grafted and came to me as a balled/burlap (B&B) plant. Grafting azaleas is a little more testy in finding a root stock that does not initiate crown shoots. What sent my early 'Gibralter' into the brush pile was a graft union failure and the plant never attained its full potential. I later bought a cutting grown 'Gibralter' and it still thrives in my garden, though looking a little rough around the edges for a 30 year old plant. The trunk is nearly six inches in diameter and it will send out new shoots from the base so I tend to keep the older wood pruned back.
           
          Several people on the list do some grafting with the deciduous azaleas, but as for the evergreen forms, it baffles me as to why anyone would want to do it since they root so easy from shoot cuttings. Also the evegreens send out loads of crown shoots in a vigerous plant. If I had to pick a root stock for grafting deciduous azaleas, I would pick R. calendulaceum, since it tends to grow tree like and sends out fewer crown shoots. I would choose a seedling or a rooted cutting of it to graft to and make the union close to the soil line.
           
          Joe Schild-Hixson, TN USDA Zone 7a
          Ask a friend to join the Azalea Society of America!
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: 4/4/06 2:08:54 PM
          Subject: Re: [AZ] Grafting of Rhododendrons (new string)

          THis is all quite interesting to me.  I am kind of an
          anti-grafting gardener, but if it would facilitate
          hybridization, I would do it. 

          What rootstock were the deciduous azaleas grafted
          onto.?

          Can decidous azaleas or rhododendrons be grafted onto
          evergreen rhododendrons and vice-versa?

          Mike Creel, SC

          --- Joe Schild <azaleajoe@...> wrote:

          > "I think that the British Isles root a lot
          > of plants.  Grafting rhododendrons was done in the
          > USA until the
          > 1960's when rooting became more common."
          >
          > When I first started collecting and propagating
          > rhododendrons and azaleas in the mid-sixties, most
          > of the first rhodos I saw in the various garden
          > centers were grafted plants. Clifton Gann explained
          > it to me this way. Most rhodos at that time shipped
          > to the eastern US were imported and that required
          > them to be held at the USDA quarantine station where
          > they were subjected to a gas chamber using Methyl
          > Bromide. A lot of the Exbury types were also
          > subjected to the same treatment. Rhodo grafted
          > plants were usually imported as bare root type and
          > that required a vigorous root stock, thus R.
          > ponticum was the root stock of choice. A lot of the
          > Exbury type azaleas were also, in a lot of cases,
          > bare root and then once passing quarantine they were
          > re potted.
          >
          > Clifton once received several hundred Knap Hill
          > hybrids all US potted in bushel baskets and those
          > too were imported. From what I saw of the plants, he
          > told me that most of the deciduous azaleas were
          > mound rooted, not from shoot cuttings. I recall
          > seeing grafted deciduous azaleas in several large
          > garden centers also. This would have been in 1967.
          >
          > It is amazing that any imported plant survived the
          > gas chambers, for I used the same stuff to sterilize
          > my planting beds until 1974 or 1975. I switched to
          > sun sterilization and preemergants under poly.
          > Importataion wained for a while when the large west
          > coast nurseries started shipping to the east, such
          > as Van Veen, though they had shipped for some time
          > to select custormers/collectors in the NE US, and
          > they rooted nearly all the plants in hundreds of
          > Nearing Frames.
          >
          > Joe Schild-Hixson, TN USDA Zone 7a
          > Ask a friend to join the Azalea Society of America!
          > http://www.azaleas.org
          >

          __________________________________________________
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        • Mike Creel
          Thank you for relating your experiences. I never see full-blood Exburys down here in South Carolina, unless Hotspur Yellow is Exbury. Please take a photo of
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 4, 2006
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            Thank you for relating your experiences. I never see
            full-blood Exburys down here in South Carolina, unless
            Hotspur Yellow is Exbury. Please take a photo of y
            our Gibraltar with the six-inch diameter. I never see
            any native azaleas with such large main trunk size. I
            have seen dead trunks up to 3 inches or so in diameter
            laying by a regenerating wild azalea. I think there
            is a 10 to 12 year cycle for several tall-growing
            native azaleas after which the main trunks fall over
            and die and the plant regenerates from the ground. I
            have observed this "cycle" in flammeum, canescens,
            viscosum and eastmanii.

            I have a couple more questions I hope someone can
            answer. Can decidous azaleas or rhododendrons be
            grafted onto evergreen rhododendrons and vice-versa?
            Can an evergreen azalea be grafted onto a deciduous.
            I would like to do this for the purposes of
            facilitating hybridization.

            Mike Creel, SC


            --- Joe Schild <azaleajoe@...> wrote:

            > Mike,
            > I do not know what the root stock was with the
            > deciduous azaleas. Because of the graft union I knew
            > they were grafted. At one time I had a 'Gibralter'
            > that was grafted and came to me as a balled/burlap
            > (B&B) plant. Grafting azaleas is a little more testy
            > in finding a root stock that does not initiate crown
            > shoots. What sent my early 'Gibralter' into the
            > brush pile was a graft union failure and the plant
            > never attained its full potential. I later bought a
            > cutting grown 'Gibralter' and it still thrives in my
            > garden, though looking a little rough around the
            > edges for a 30 year old plant. The trunk is nearly
            > six inches in diameter and it will send out new
            > shoots from the base so I tend to keep the older
            > wood pruned back.
            >
            > Several people on the list do some grafting with the
            > deciduous azaleas, but as for the evergreen forms,
            > it baffles me as to why anyone would want to do it
            > since they root so easy from shoot cuttings. Also
            > the evegreens send out loads of crown shoots in a
            > vigerous plant. If I had to pick a root stock for
            > grafting deciduous azaleas, I would pick R.
            > calendulaceum, since it tends to grow tree like and
            > sends out fewer crown shoots. I would choose a
            > seedling or a rooted cutting of it to graft to and
            > make the union close to the soil line.
            >
            > Joe Schild-Hixson, TN USDA Zone 7a
            > Ask a friend to join the Azalea Society of America!
            > http://www.azaleas.org
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Mike Creel
            > To: azaleas@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: 4/4/06 2:08:54 PM
            > Subject: Re: [AZ] Grafting of Rhododendrons (new
            > string)
            >
            >
            > THis is all quite interesting to me. I am kind of
            > an
            > anti-grafting gardener, but if it would facilitate
            > hybridization, I would do it.
            >
            > What rootstock were the deciduous azaleas grafted
            > onto.?
            >
            > Can decidous azaleas or rhododendrons be grafted
            > onto
            > evergreen rhododendrons and vice-versa?
            >
            > Mike Creel, SC
            >
            > --- Joe Schild <azaleajoe@...> wrote:
            >
            > > "I think that the British Isles root a lot
            > > of plants. Grafting rhododendrons was done in the
            > > USA until the
            > > 1960's when rooting became more common."
            > >
            > > When I first started collecting and propagating
            > > rhododendrons and azaleas in the mid-sixties, most
            > > of the first rhodos I saw in the various garden
            > > centers were grafted plants. Clifton Gann
            > explained
            > > it to me this way. Most rhodos at that time
            > shipped
            > > to the eastern US were imported and that required
            > > them to be held at the USDA quarantine station
            > where
            > > they were subjected to a gas chamber using Methyl
            > > Bromide. A lot of the Exbury types were also
            > > subjected to the same treatment. Rhodo grafted
            > > plants were usually imported as bare root type and
            > > that required a vigorous root stock, thus R.
            > > ponticum was the root stock of choice. A lot of
            > the
            > > Exbury type azaleas were also, in a lot of cases,
            > > bare root and then once passing quarantine they
            > were
            > > re potted.
            > >
            > > Clifton once received several hundred Knap Hill
            > > hybrids all US potted in bushel baskets and those
            > > too were imported. From what I saw of the plants,
            > he
            > > told me that most of the deciduous azaleas were
            > > mound rooted, not from shoot cuttings. I recall
            > > seeing grafted deciduous azaleas in several large
            > > garden centers also. This would have been in 1967.
            > >
            > > It is amazing that any imported plant survived the
            > > gas chambers, for I used the same stuff to
            > sterilize
            > > my planting beds until 1974 or 1975. I switched to
            > > sun sterilization and preemergants under poly.
            > > Importataion wained for a while when the large
            > west
            > > coast nurseries started shipping to the east, such
            > > as Van Veen, though they had shipped for some time
            > > to select custormers/collectors in the NE US, and
            > > they rooted nearly all the plants in hundreds of
            > > Nearing Frames.
            > >
            > > Joe Schild-Hixson, TN USDA Zone 7a
            > > Ask a friend to join the Azalea Society of
            > America!
            > > http://www.azaleas.org
            > >
            >
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          • Joe Schild
            Mike,, I will try to get a pic of my Gibralter for you. On the issue of regeneration, I can show you R.calendulaceum on Wayah Bald that are over 37
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 6, 2006
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              Mike,,
              I will  try to get a pic of my  'Gibralter' for you.
               
              On the    issue of regeneration, I can show you R.calendulaceum on Wayah Bald that are over 37 years old and still thriving. I have visited these plants that long.        On grafting azaleas, I suggest Lee's The Azalea Book, pages 44 and 45.
               
              Joe Schild-Hixson, TN USDA Zone 7a
              Ask a friend to join the Azalea Society of America!
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: 4/4/06 9:17:19 PM
              Subject: Re: [AZ] Grafting of Rhododendrons (new string)

              Thank you for relating your experiences.  I never see
              full-blood Exburys down here in South Carolina, unless
              Hotspur Yellow is Exbury.  Please take a photo of y
              our Gibraltar with the six-inch diameter.  I never see
              any native azaleas with such large main trunk size. I
              have seen dead trunks up to 3 inches or so in diameter
              laying by a regenerating wild azalea.  I think there
              is a 10 to 12 year cycle for several tall-growing
              native azaleas after which the main trunks fall over
              and die and the plant regenerates from the ground.  I
              have observed this "cycle" in flammeum, canescens,
              viscosum and eastmanii.

              I have a couple more questions I hope someone can
              answer. Can decidous azaleas or rhododendrons be
              grafted onto evergreen rhododendrons and vice-versa?
              Can an evergreen azalea be grafted onto a deciduous.
              I would like to do this for the purposes of
              facilitating hybridization.

              Mike Creel, SC


              --- Joe Schild <azaleajoe@...> wrote:

              > Mike,
              > I do not know what the root stock was with the
              > deciduous azaleas. Because of the graft union I knew
              > they were grafted. At one time I had a 'Gibralter'
              > that was grafted and came to me as a balled/burlap
              > (B&B) plant. Grafting azaleas is a little more testy
              > in finding a root stock that does not initiate crown
              > shoots. What sent my early 'Gibralter' into the
              > brush pile was a graft union failure and the plant
              > never attained its full potential. I later bought a
              > cutting grown 'Gibralter' and it still thrives in my
              > garden, though looking a little rough around the
              > edges for a 30 year old plant. The trunk is nearly
              > six inches in diameter and it will send out new
              > shoots from the base so I tend to keep the older
              > wood pruned back.
              >
              > Several people on the list do some grafting with the
              > deciduous azaleas, but as for the evergreen forms,
              > it baffles me as to why anyone would want to do it
              > since they root so easy from shoot cuttings. Also
              > the evegreens send out loads of crown shoots in a
              > vigerous plant. If I had to pick a root stock for
              > grafting deciduous azaleas, I would pick R.
              > calendulaceum, since it tends to grow tree like and
              > sends out fewer crown shoots. I would choose a
              > seedling or a rooted cutting of it to graft to and
              > make the union close to the soil line.
              >
              > Joe Schild-Hixson, TN USDA Zone 7a
              > Ask a friend to join the Azalea Society of America!
              > http://www.azaleas.org
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Mike Creel
              > To: azaleas@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: 4/4/06 2:08:54 PM
              > Subject: Re: [AZ] Grafting of Rhododendrons (new
              > string)
              >
              >
              > THis is all quite interesting to me.  I am kind of
              > an
              > anti-grafting gardener, but if it would facilitate
              > hybridization, I would do it. 
              >
              > What rootstock were the deciduous azaleas grafted
              > onto.?
              >
              > Can decidous azaleas or rhododendrons be grafted
              > onto
              > evergreen rhododendrons and vice-versa?
              >
              > Mike Creel, SC
              >
              > --- Joe Schild <azaleajoe@...> wrote:
              >
              > > "I think that the British Isles root a lot
              > > of plants.  Grafting rhododendrons was done in the
              > > USA until the
              > > 1960's when rooting became more common."
              > >
              > > When I first started collecting and propagating
              > > rhododendrons and azaleas in the mid-sixties, most
              > > of the first rhodos I saw in the various garden
              > > centers were grafted plants. Clifton Gann
              > explained
              > > it to me this way. Most rhodos at that time
              > shipped
              > > to the eastern US were imported and that required
              > > them to be held at the USDA quarantine station
              > where
              > > they were subjected to a gas chamber using Methyl
              > > Bromide. A lot of the Exbury types were also
              > > subjected to the same treatment. Rhodo grafted
              > > plants were usually imported as bare root type and
              > > that required a vigorous root stock, thus R.
              > > ponticum was the root stock of choice. A lot of
              > the
              > > Exbury type azaleas were also, in a lot of cases,
              > > bare root and then once passing quarantine they
              > were
              > > re potted.
              > >
              > > Clifton once received several hundred Knap Hill
              > > hybrids all US potted in bushel baskets and those
              > > too were imported. From what I saw of the plants,
              > he
              > > told me that most of the deciduous azaleas were
              > > mound rooted, not from shoot cuttings. I recall
              > > seeing grafted deciduous azaleas in several large
              > > garden centers also. This would have been in 1967.
              > >
              > > It is amazing that any imported plant survived the
              > > gas chambers, for I used the same stuff to
              > sterilize
              > > my planting beds until 1974 or 1975. I switched to
              > > sun sterilization and preemergants under poly.
              > > Importataion wained for a while when the large
              > west
              > > coast nurseries started shipping to the east, such
              > > as Van Veen, though they had shipped for some time
              > > to select custormers/collectors in the NE US, and
              > > they rooted nearly all the plants in hundreds of
              > > Nearing Frames.
              > >
              > > Joe Schild-Hixson, TN USDA Zone 7a
              > > Ask a friend to join the Azalea Society of
              > America!
              > > http://www.azaleas.org
              > >
              >
              > __________________________________________________
              > Do You Yahoo!?
              > Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
              > protection around
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              >
              > When you reply to an email, PLEASE quote its
              > relevant part(s) only, as context, and DELETE the
              > rest - especially this line and the Yahoo lines.
              > And PLEASE tell us your city, state and/or USDA
              > zone.
              >
              > We welcome attached images RESIZED to be under 100KB
              > in size - 640 x 480 pixel JPEG images at 50% or 1:40
              > compression are ideal. By attaching them you agree
              > that, without giving up your rights to them, they
              > may be shown on Azalea Society websites.
              >
              > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
              > azaleas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
              >
              >  Visit your group "azaleas" on the web.
              >  
              >  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              >  azaleas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >  
              >  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
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            • Robert Callaham
              Thread-grafting works very simply and effectively on satsuki azaleas, camellias, quince, and even on redwoods. The usual process, at least for work on bonsai,
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 6, 2006
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                Thread-grafting works very simply and effectively on satsuki azaleas,
                camellias, quince, and even on redwoods. The usual process, at least
                for work on bonsai, is to take a water sprout or root sprout and thread
                graft it into exactly the position for a missing branch on a bonsai. I
                regularly achieve 80 to 90% success on grafts that take 10 to 15
                minutes to complete. All of this has been described in an article
                published in a bimonthly bonsai publication and will be included in
                full detail with illustrations in my new book on satsuki azaleas that
                is about to be published.

                If you want to try it to graft evergreen to deciduous azaleas, or vice
                versa, you would simply secure a potted plant intended to provide the
                ramet to the trunk of the plant intended to be the ortet. This can be
                done easlly with duct tape or green nursery tape. I would advise
                protecting the bark of the ortet with a film of plastic to avoid any
                possibility of peeling bark when later stripping off the tape.

                Anyone seriously wanting to try this can respond to me personally, and
                I will provide a copy of the 14-step procedure for thread grafting.

                Bob Callaham,
                Orinda, CA
              • Mike Creel
                Do you mean that the main stems on the Wayah Bald calendulaceum are 37 years old and have not died back? What diameter have these plants reached in 37 years. I
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 7, 2006
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                  Do you mean that the main stems on the Wayah Bald
                  calendulaceum are 37 years old and have not died back?
                  What diameter have these plants reached in 37 years.
                  I have little to no experience with mountain azaleas
                  in the wild, just the ones growing in my woods that I
                  planted. I have long considered native azaleas as
                  long-cycle perennials whose tops die back after a 10
                  to 12 year period and then they regenerate from the
                  base. Your comments of the 37 year old calendulaceum
                  sound more like a mountain laurel.
                  Mike Creel, SC

                  --- Joe Schild <azaleajoe@...> wrote:

                  > Mike,,
                  > I will try to get a pic of my 'Gibralter' for you.
                  >
                  > On the issue of regeneration, I can show you
                  > R.calendulaceum on Wayah Bald that are over 37 years
                  > old and still thriving. I have visited these plants
                  > that long. On grafting azaleas, I suggest
                  > Lee's The Azalea Book, pages 44 and 45.
                  >
                  > Joe Schild-Hixson, TN USDA Zone 7a
                  > Ask a friend to join the Azalea Society of America!
                  > http://www.azaleas.org
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Mike Creel
                  > To: azaleas@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: 4/4/06 9:17:19 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [AZ] Grafting of Rhododendrons (new
                  > string)
                  >
                  >
                  > Thank you for relating your experiences. I never
                  > see
                  > full-blood Exburys down here in South Carolina,
                  > unless
                  > Hotspur Yellow is Exbury. Please take a photo of y
                  > our Gibraltar with the six-inch diameter. I never
                  > see
                  > any native azaleas with such large main trunk size.
                  > I
                  > have seen dead trunks up to 3 inches or so in
                  > diameter
                  > laying by a regenerating wild azalea. I think there
                  > is a 10 to 12 year cycle for several tall-growing
                  > native azaleas after which the main trunks fall over
                  > and die and the plant regenerates from the ground.
                  > I
                  > have observed this "cycle" in flammeum, canescens,
                  > viscosum and eastmanii.
                  >
                  > I have a couple more questions I hope someone can
                  > answer. Can decidous azaleas or rhododendrons be
                  > grafted onto evergreen rhododendrons and vice-versa?
                  >
                  > Can an evergreen azalea be grafted onto a deciduous.
                  >
                  > I would like to do this for the purposes of
                  > facilitating hybridization.
                  >
                  > Mike Creel, SC
                  >


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                • Joe Schild
                  Mike, Yep! The same trunks with some about 4 in diameter. Where brambles have invaded the locations on Wayah, the shrubs have not fared so well. I have been
                  Message 8 of 9 , Apr 7, 2006
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                    Mike,
                    Yep! The same trunks with some about 4" in diameter.  Where brambles have invaded the locations on Wayah, the shrubs have not fared so well. I have been going to Wayah since 1969 and know fairly well the locations of the best plants and many are tagged or flagged with some of the flagging being over 20 years old. Come on Mike, I do know the difference between R. calendulaceum and Kalmia. A second location is Gregory Bald and most of those plants are very old.
                     
                    Another location is on the Cumberland Plateau on State Route 8 in Sequatchie and VanBuren Counties, TN. I have studied five native species along this road for over 35 years and can still walk among the original plants, main trunks. The diameters of some exceed 4" at the base. This is not to say the shrubs do not put out new shoots from the crown, because they do. The shrubs have attained their maximum height potential and arch over. There have not been wild fires or construction in the specific locations, therefore the plants have been essentially undisturbed. Where there have been wild fires, the shrubs die back to the crown, new shoots emerge, and within a few years they suddenly burst into bloom with the increased light levels and less competition. I have found R. cumberlandense in these fire disturbed locations that I never saw before. At other locations along this road construction and clear cutting have decimated huge colonies of native azaleas.
                     
                    On the property we have owned for 35 years in VanBuren County, the native azaleas are huge on old wood and are thriving. I have located R. cumberlandense, R. arborescens, R. canescens, R. alabamense, and R. periclymenoides. Along the back line at the bluffs, there are loads of Kalmias and a few R. maximum and R. catawbiense. There is also a 3 acre upland bog with seven species of fern, and loads of wildflowers.
                     
                    "I have little to no experience with mountain azaleas
                    in the wild, just the ones growing in my woods that I
                    planted.  I have long considered native azaleas as
                    long-cycle perennials whose tops die back after a 10
                    to 12 year period and then they regenerate from the
                    base." 
                    I would be very hesitant to make your generalities on how the native azaleas fail to grow on very old wood and should be considered or treated as long-cycle perennials without gaining the experience from more than a backyard location. In a landscape or garden setting, perhaps the old shrubs do benefit from cut backs to keep new shoots emerging from the crown, but that is different from most wild locations I have seen in my 37 years of exploring.
                     
                    Regards,
                     
                    Joe Schild-Hixson, TN USDA Zone 7a
                    Ask a friend to join the Azalea Society of America!
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: 4/7/06 8:51:41 AM
                    Subject: Re: [AZ] Regeneration of Rhododendrons and Azaleas (new string)

                    Do you mean that the main stems on the Wayah Bald
                    calendulaceum are 37 years old and have not died back?
                    What diameter have these plants reached in 37 years.
                    I have little to no experience with mountain azaleas
                    in the wild, just the ones growing in my woods that I
                    planted.  I have long considered native azaleas as
                    long-cycle perennials whose tops die back after a 10
                    to 12 year period and then they regenerate from the
                    base.  Your comments of the 37 year old calendulaceum
                    sound more like a mountain laurel.
                    Mike Creel, SC

                    --- Joe Schild <azaleajoe@...> wrote:

                    > Mike,,
                    > I will  try to get a pic of my  'Gibralter' for you.
                    >
                    > On the    issue of regeneration, I can show you
                    > R.calendulaceum on Wayah Bald that are over 37 years
                    > old and still thriving. I have visited these plants
                    > that long.        On grafting azaleas, I suggest
                    > Lee's The Azalea Book, pages 44 and 45.
                    >
                    > Joe Schild-Hixson, TN USDA Zone 7a
                    > Ask a friend to join the Azalea Society of America!
                    > http://www.azaleas.org
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Mike Creel
                    > To: azaleas@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: 4/4/06 9:17:19 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [AZ] Grafting of Rhododendrons (new
                    > string)
                    >
                    >
                    > Thank you for relating your experiences.  I never
                    > see
                    > full-blood Exburys down here in South Carolina,
                    > unless
                    > Hotspur Yellow is Exbury.  Please take a photo of y
                    > our Gibraltar with the six-inch diameter.  I never
                    > see
                    > any native azaleas with such large main trunk size.
                    > I
                    > have seen dead trunks up to 3 inches or so in
                    > diameter
                    > laying by a regenerating wild azalea.  I think there
                    > is a 10 to 12 year cycle for several tall-growing
                    > native azaleas after which the main trunks fall over
                    > and die and the plant regenerates from the ground.
                    > I
                    > have observed this "cycle" in flammeum, canescens,
                    > viscosum and eastmanii.
                    >
                    > I have a couple more questions I hope someone can
                    > answer. Can decidous azaleas or rhododendrons be
                    > grafted onto evergreen rhododendrons and vice-versa?
                    >
                    > Can an evergreen azalea be grafted onto a deciduous.
                    >
                    > I would like to do this for the purposes of
                    > facilitating hybridization.
                    >
                    > Mike Creel, SC
                    >


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                  • Mike Creel
                    I didn t mean to imply that you had kalmia confused with native azalea, but that I personally have observed apparently ancient stems of Kalmia with regularity
                    Message 9 of 9 , Apr 7, 2006
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                      I didn't mean to imply that you had kalmia confused
                      with native azalea, but that I personally have
                      observed apparently ancient stems of Kalmia with
                      regularity in most areas where Kalmia grows. I would
                      love to see photos of any native azaleas with large,
                      old trunk growth. I do have a 12 foot plus tall
                      white canescens beside my house about to bloom. I
                      think it needs cutting back.

                      Your field observations on trunk longevity shoot a big
                      hole in my theories on cyclical stem regeneration in
                      native azalea. My observations of stem regeneration
                      (no large trunks) are based primarily on flammeum,
                      which grows on droughty, steep bluffs in the
                      sandhills. Maybe it is a site thing and a species
                      thing that caused dieback and regeneration.

                      Why do Exbury azaleas always seem to grow large
                      trunks? Some azalea varieties seem to stay twiggy and
                      thin-trunked. Atlanticum, in particular never seems
                      to grow a large trunk before it dies back.
                      YOur Good Friend Mike Creel, SC

                      --- Joe Schild <azaleajoe@...> wrote:

                      > Mike,
                      > Yep! The same trunks with some about 4" in diameter.
                      > Where brambles have invaded the locations on Wayah,
                      > the shrubs have not fared so well. I have been going
                      > to Wayah since 1969 and know fairly well the
                      > locations of the best plants and many are tagged or
                      > flagged with some of the flagging being over 20
                      > years old. Come on Mike, I do know the difference
                      > between R. calendulaceum and Kalmia. A second
                      > location is Gregory Bald and most of those plants
                      > are very old.
                      >
                      > Another location is on the Cumberland Plateau on
                      > State Route 8 in Sequatchie and VanBuren Counties,
                      > TN. I have studied five native species along this
                      > road for over 35 years and can still walk among the
                      > original plants, main trunks. The diameters of some
                      > exceed 4" at the base. This is not to say the shrubs
                      > do not put out new shoots from the crown, because
                      > they do. The shrubs have attained their maximum
                      > height potential and arch over. There have not been
                      > wild fires or construction in the specific
                      > locations, therefore the plants have been
                      > essentially undisturbed. Where there have been wild
                      > fires, the shrubs die back to the crown, new shoots
                      > emerge, and within a few years they suddenly burst
                      > into bloom with the increased light levels and less
                      > competition. I have found R. cumberlandense in these
                      > fire disturbed locations that I never saw before. At
                      > other locations along this road construction and
                      > clear cutting have decimated huge colonies of native
                      > azaleas.
                      >
                      > On the property we have owned for 35 years in
                      > VanBuren County, the native azaleas are huge on old
                      > wood and are thriving. I have located R.
                      > cumberlandense, R. arborescens, R. canescens, R.
                      > alabamense, and R. periclymenoides. Along the back
                      > line at the bluffs, there are loads of Kalmias and a
                      > few R. maximum and R. catawbiense. There is also a 3
                      > acre upland bog with seven species of fern, and
                      > loads of wildflowers.
                      >
                      > "I have little to no experience with mountain
                      > azaleas
                      > in the wild, just the ones growing in my woods that
                      > I
                      > planted. I have long considered native azaleas as
                      > long-cycle perennials whose tops die back after a 10
                      > to 12 year period and then they regenerate from the
                      > base."
                      > I would be very hesitant to make your generalities
                      > on how the native azaleas fail to grow on very old
                      > wood and should be considered or treated as
                      > long-cycle perennials without gaining the experience
                      > from more than a backyard location. In a landscape
                      > or garden setting, perhaps the old shrubs do benefit
                      > from cut backs to keep new shoots emerging from the
                      > crown, but that is different from most wild
                      > locations I have seen in my 37 years of exploring.
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      >
                      > Joe Schild-Hixson, TN USDA Zone 7a
                      > Ask a friend to join the Azalea Society of America!
                      > http://www.azaleas.org
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Mike Creel
                      > To: azaleas@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: 4/7/06 8:51:41 AM
                      > Subject: Re: [AZ] Regeneration of Rhododendrons and
                      > Azaleas (new string)
                      >
                      >
                      > Do you mean that the main stems on the Wayah Bald
                      > calendulaceum are 37 years old and have not died
                      > back?
                      > What diameter have these plants reached in 37 years.
                      >
                      > I have little to no experience with mountain azaleas
                      > in the wild, just the ones growing in my woods that
                      > I
                      > planted. I have long considered native azaleas as
                      > long-cycle perennials whose tops die back after a 10
                      > to 12 year period and then they regenerate from the
                      > base. Your comments of the 37 year old
                      > calendulaceum
                      > sound more like a mountain laurel.
                      > Mike Creel, SC


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