Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [AZ] Self-pollinated VS Cross pollinated

Expand Messages
  • Bob Kelly
    Mike, I take it you mean r. oblongifolium Katie Ferguson from Dodd s. Mine has developed seed pods with no likely pollen source nearby. Bob Kelly Aberdeen,
    Message 1 of 17 , Oct 4, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      Mike,
       
      I take it you mean r. oblongifolium 'Katie Ferguson'  from Dodd's.  Mine has developed seed pods with no likely pollen source nearby.
       
      Bob Kelly
      Aberdeen, MS zone 7b
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 1:08 PM
      Subject: [AZ] Self-pollinated VS Cross pollinated

      I have some deciduous native azaleas that never set a
      seed pod  unless you hand pollinate them from an
      unrelated second plant.  But I have other azaleas,
      like one Choice Creel atlanticum X austrinum hybrid,
      that bloom alone and set heavy seed pod crops annually
      with no nearby concurrently blooming cross-pollinator.

      My Rh. oblongifolium Sarah Ferguson has several seed
      pods on it, and some 15 feet away is Weston's Pink and
      Sweet that was blooming at the same time.  Sarah has
      some nice seed pods.  And I am wondering if she selfed
      or crossed with Pink and Sweet.  Has anyone in the
      group had a Sarah Ferguson make seed pods and have
      they grown the seedlings out to bloom?

      Mike Creel, SC, Zone 8A


        
    • Joe Schild
      Bill & Mike, Something in Bill s reply caught my eye. There is self pollination... all the action occurring in one flower. There is close pollination between
      Message 2 of 17 , Oct 4, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Bill & Mike,
        Something in Bill's reply caught my eye.
        "There is self pollination... all the action occurring in one flower. 
        There is close pollination between two flowers on the same plant."
         
         
        I must argue the point from a genetic point of view, if indeed a single plant (cultivar) has all the same genes in all its parts, the two above forms of pollination should be stated as "Self Pollination" with no distinction whether the pollen comes from the same flower or a second flower from elsewere on the plant.
         
        As for actual selfs, I have had the experience of this happening as the result of a closed hand pollination I made. The resulting seed capsules were the same size on that plant as those I made in cross pollination from a different plant of the same species. Usually in the wild when I find a nice plant I will make a cross pollination from a seperate plant to assue some seed pod formation for me to collect in the fall.
         
        In over 37 years of growing the native azaleas, I have found R. austrinum as a specimen or as one of the parents in a cross to be massive seed producers. The other early flowering species do not come anywhere near to the Florida Flame in this trait. Bill, you are very correct in the assumption that bees will seek out both pollen and nectar from some distance. Since most of our honeybees have declined in numbers, the bumblebee is now the main pollinator and in the case of the early flowering azaleas, they are looking mostly for nectar as quick food for the emerging brood after a long winter of dormancy by the queen. Their larger size make them good pollinators as they try to squeeze into the slender flower tube. I have seen them give up on some species like R. canesens and R. periclymenoides, and move around to the tube base to chew a hole through to reach the nectar, since the tube is more slender and longer than R. austrinum.
         
        If I plan on using R. austrinum in a cross, I must protect the pollen and stigma very early from the bees. Each spring, my specimen R, austrinum is guarded by one bumble bee as she runs off any other bee or insect. As her home brood matures, more and more arrive to partake in the sweet nectar and in the fall, the shrub is covered with clusters of seed pods. One year, I placed sheets of newspaper under the shrub and shook it wildly to loose the seed. I collected almost 10 ounces after cleaning, most of it given away to friends, and since the seed was from open pollinated flowers and my Pinxterbloom that sits next to it, some of the resulting seedling were creamy yeally to nearly white, with just a few bright yellows.
         
        Regards,
         
        Joe Schild Hixson, TN    7a
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: 10/4/05 4:04:44 PM
        Subject: Re: [AZ] Self-pollinated VS Cross pollinated

        Mike,

        There is self pollination... all the action occurring in one flower. 
        There is close pollination between two flowers on the same plant.  And
        there is cross pollination between two different plants.  Someone once
        told me that self pollination is relatively rare because pistils are
        rarely receptive when its own pollen is available.  Any truth to that?

        The other factor that you should consider is that the options are not
        limited to the two plants on your property that are 15 feet apart.  I
        don't know how far bees roam, but I'll bet it is farther than one would
        imagine.

        Bill Miller
        Bethesda, Maryland

        Mike Creel wrote:

        >I have some deciduous native azaleas that never set a
        >seed pod  unless you hand pollinate them from an
        >unrelated second plant.  But I have other azaleas,
        >like one Choice Creel atlanticum X austrinum hybrid,
        >that bloom alone and set heavy seed pod crops annually
        >with no nearby concurrently blooming cross-pollinator.
        >
        >My Rh. oblongifolium Sarah Ferguson has several seed
        >pods on it, and some 15 feet away is Weston's Pink and
        >Sweet that was blooming at the same time.  Sarah has
        >some nice seed pods.  And I am wondering if she selfed
        >or crossed with Pink and Sweet.  Has anyone in the
        >group had a Sarah Ferguson make seed pods and have
        >they grown the seedlings out to bloom?
        >
        >Mike Creel, SC, Zone 8A
        >
        >
        >

        >


      • William C. Miller III
        Joe, I think you ve stated the problem. I don t believe all flowers on the same plant are genetically identical. I don t know what the actual mutation rate
        Message 3 of 17 , Oct 5, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          Joe,

          I think you've stated the problem.  I don't believe all flowers on the same plant are genetically identical.  I don't know what the actual mutation rate is for azaleas but from a genetic point of view the probability of two flowers on the same plant (close pollination) being genetically distinct (think Satsuki as the extreme example) is pretty high.  It seems to me that one single point mutation (a single amino acid) is all it takes to make the distinction between "self" and "close" valid. 

          Bill Miller
          Bethesda, Maryland

          Joe Schild wrote:
          Bill & Mike,
          Something in Bill's reply caught my eye.
          "There is self pollination... all the action occurring in one flower. 
          There is close pollination between two flowers on the same plant."
           
           
          I must argue the point from a genetic point of view, if indeed a single plant (cultivar) has all the same genes in all its parts, the two above forms of pollination should be stated as "Self Pollination" with no distinction whether the pollen comes from the same flower or a second flower from elsewere on the plant.
           
          As for actual selfs, I have had the experience of this happening as the result of a closed hand pollination I made. The resulting seed capsules were the same size on that plant as those I made in cross pollination from a different plant of the same species. Usually in the wild when I find a nice plant I will make a cross pollination from a seperate plant to assue some seed pod formation for me to collect in the fall.
           
          In over 37 years of growing the native azaleas, I have found R. austrinum as a specimen or as one of the parents in a cross to be massive seed producers. The other early flowering species do not come anywhere near to the Florida Flame in this trait. Bill, you are very correct in the assumption that bees will seek out both pollen and nectar from some distance. Since most of our honeybees have declined in numbers, the bumblebee is now the main pollinator and in the case of the early flowering azaleas, they are looking mostly for nectar as quick food for the emerging brood after a long winter of dormancy by the queen. Their larger size make them good pollinators as they try to squeeze into the slender flower tube. I have seen them give up on some species like R. canesens and R. periclymenoides, and move around to the tube base to chew a hole through to reach the nectar, since the tube is more slender and longer than R. austrinum.
           
          If I plan on using R. austrinum in a cross, I must protect the pollen and stigma very early from the bees. Each spring, my specimen R, austrinum is guarded by one bumble bee as she runs off any other bee or insect. As her home brood matures, more and more arrive to partake in the sweet nectar and in the fall, the shrub is covered with clusters of seed pods. One year, I placed sheets of newspaper under the shrub and shook it wildly to loose the seed. I collected almost 10 ounces after cleaning, most of it given away to friends, and since the seed was from open pollinated flowers and my Pinxterbloom that sits next to it, some of the resulting seedling were creamy yeally to nearly white, with just a few bright yellows.
           
          Regards,
           
          Joe Schild Hixson, TN    7a
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: 10/4/05 4:04:44 PM
          Subject: Re: [AZ] Self-pollinated VS Cross pollinated

          Mike,

          There is self pollination... all the action occurring in one flower. 
          There is close pollination between two flowers on the same plant.  And
          there is cross pollination between two different plants.  Someone once
          told me that self pollination is relatively rare because pistils are
          rarely receptive when its own pollen is available.  Any truth to that?

          The other factor that you should consider is that the options are not
          limited to the two plants on your property that are 15 feet apart.  I
          don't know how far bees roam, but I'll bet it is farther than one would
          imagine.

          Bill Miller
          Bethesda, Maryland

          Mike Creel wrote:

          >I have some deciduous native azaleas that never set a
          >seed pod  unless you hand pollinate them from an
          >unrelated second plant.  But I have other azaleas,
          >like one Choice Creel atlanticum X austrinum hybrid,
          >that bloom alone and set heavy seed pod crops annually
          >with no nearby concurrently blooming cross-pollinator.
          >
          >My Rh. oblongifolium Sarah Ferguson has several seed
          >pods on it, and some 15 feet away is Weston's Pink and
          >Sweet that was blooming at the same time.  Sarah has
          >some nice seed pods.  And I am wondering if she selfed
          >or crossed with Pink and Sweet.  Has anyone in the
          >group had a Sarah Ferguson make seed pods and have
          >they grown the seedlings out to bloom?
          >
          >Mike Creel, SC, Zone 8A

        • Mike Creel
          Correct, R. oblongifolium Katie Ferguson. I was having a senior moment. And the atlanticum-austrinum hybrid I have that annually selfs heavily) is Choice
          Message 4 of 17 , Oct 5, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            Correct, R. oblongifolium Katie Ferguson. I was having
            a senior moment. And the atlanticum-austrinum hybrid
            I have that annually selfs "heavily) is Choice Cream,
            a Fred Galle creation, not Choice Creel. Bob, have
            any of the Katie Ferguson seedlings bloomed? My plant
            is cutting grown from yours.
            Mike Creel, SC, Zone 8A

            --- Bob Kelly <bkelly66@...> wrote:

            > Mike,
            >
            > I take it you mean r. oblongifolium 'Katie Ferguson'
            > from Dodd's. Mine has developed seed pods with no
            > likely pollen source nearby.
            >
            > Bob Kelly
            > Aberdeen, MS zone 7b
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Mike Creel
            > To: ASA Azaleaphiles
            > Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 1:08 PM
            > Subject: [AZ] Self-pollinated VS Cross pollinated
            >
            >
            > I have some deciduous native azaleas that never
            > set a
            > seed pod unless you hand pollinate them from an
            > unrelated second plant. But I have other azaleas,
            > like one Choice Creel atlanticum X austrinum
            > hybrid,
            > that bloom alone and set heavy seed pod crops
            > annually
            > with no nearby concurrently blooming
            > cross-pollinator.
            >
            > My Rh. oblongifolium Sarah Ferguson has several
            > seed
            > pods on it, and some 15 feet away is Weston's Pink
            > and
            > Sweet that was blooming at the same time. Sarah
            > has
            > some nice seed pods. And I am wondering if she
            > selfed
            > or crossed with Pink and Sweet. Has anyone in the
            > group had a Sarah Ferguson make seed pods and have
            > they grown the seedlings out to bloom?
            >
            > Mike Creel, SC, Zone 8A
            >
            >
            >





            ______________________________________________________
            Yahoo! for Good
            Donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
            http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/
          • S. M. Henning
            ... What makes you think that the variation on a Satsuki plant is genetic? That would imply that leaves of a sassafras tree are genetically different because
            Message 5 of 17 , Oct 5, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              "William C. Miller III" <bill@...> wrote:

              >I think you've stated the problem. I don't believe all flowers on the
              >same plant are genetically identical. I don't know what the actual
              >mutation rate is for azaleas but from a genetic point of view the
              >probability of two flowers on the same plant (close pollination) being
              >genetically distinct (think Satsuki as the extreme example) is pretty
              >high. It seems to me that one single point mutation (a single amino
              >acid) is all it takes to make the distinction between "self" and "close"
              >valid.

              What makes you think that the variation on a Satsuki plant is
              genetic? That would imply that leaves of a sassafras tree are
              genetically different because they have individual shapes. I have
              never seen any documentation for either. I think the genetic
              structure of Satsukis is such that there is either a random
              probability in the coloration, or perhaps the coloration is affected
              by a variable such as a chemical that is sun, moisture, temperature
              and/or nutrient related. In fact, research I have seen has shown
              that mutations are much less of a factor than they were believed to
              be in the '50s. Sexual reproduction leads to genetic variation, but
              I have never heard anyone document that flower variation in a single
              plant was caused by genetic mutations except for one-of-a-kind sports
              that can be propagated true vegetatively but don't sport over and
              over again on a reproducible basis.
              --
              Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA Zone 6

              Visit my Rhododendron and Azalea web pages at:
              http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman/rhody.html

              Also visit the Rhododendron and Azalea Bookstore at:
              http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman/rhodybooks.html
            • William C. Miller III
              To dismiss the concept of close pollination, one has to conclude that all flowers on the same plant are genetically identical. I don t think that is
              Message 6 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                To dismiss the concept of close pollination, one has to conclude that all flowers on the same plant are genetically identical.  I don't think that is justifiable.  Mutations occur at a certain rate in both somatic and germ cells and they aren't always obvious.  The alteration of one nitrogenous base on the double helix which leads to a different amino acid in a peptide chain can result in a different gene product.  There is nothing "random" about transcription, in fact it is quite orderly.  But it isn't a perfect system either because it can be altered. 

                What we see in your sassafras leaf variability is a function of genetic potential which is modulated by environmental factors (sun, moisture, temperature and/or nutrients).  If azaleas were raised in an optimal and controlled environment year after  year, I suspect they would be comparatively uniform with the exception of whatever mutations occur. 

                Given that "genetic drift" naturally occurs between populations of plants. Why do you expect that it wouldn't occur between branches of the same plant?

                Bill Miller
                Bethesda, Maryland

                S. M. Henning wrote:
                "William C. Miller III" <bill@...> wrote:
                
                  
                I think you've stated the problem.  I don't believe all flowers on the
                same plant are genetically identical.  I don't know what the actual
                mutation rate is for azaleas but from a genetic point of view the
                probability of two flowers on the same plant (close pollination) being
                genetically distinct (think Satsuki as the extreme example) is pretty
                high.  It seems to me that one single point mutation (a single amino
                acid) is all it takes to make the distinction between "self" and "close"
                valid.
                    
                What makes you think that the variation on a Satsuki plant is 
                genetic?  That would imply that leaves of a sassafras tree are 
                genetically different because they have individual shapes. I have 
                never seen any documentation for either.  I think the genetic 
                structure of Satsukis is such that there is either a random 
                probability in the coloration, or perhaps the coloration is affected 
                by a variable such as a chemical that is sun, moisture, temperature 
                and/or nutrient related.  In fact, research I have seen has shown 
                that mutations are much less of a factor than they were believed to 
                be in the '50s.  Sexual reproduction leads to genetic variation, but 
                I have never heard anyone document that flower variation in a single 
                plant was caused by genetic mutations except for one-of-a-kind sports 
                that can be propagated true vegetatively but don't sport over and 
                over again on a reproducible basis.
                  
              • Joe Schild
                You will note that I kept quite on this issue after your reply, Bill, which answered my question with reliable data to support it. The additional information
                Message 7 of 17 , Oct 6, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  You will note that I kept quite on this issue after your reply, Bill, which answered my question with reliable data to support it. The additional information tends to reinforce the data. I guess I tend to challenge data I have not seen or goes against the information I have gleaned over the years until someone offers supportive information.
                   
                  I did find the notation on the Sassafras interesting, because my neighbor has one tree that has uniform leaves with no deviation from the three finger pattern. In over fifteen years, I have never seen a left mitten, right mitten, or single leaf shape emerge.The blooms, though mostly insignificant, are a nice red in the spring, the fruit are reddish, and the leaves also turn a reddish color in the fall. This tree may be nice to propagate for the trade. I tend to think it may be a mule since no seedlings have ever emerged in his or my yard or nursery pots that sit very close to the fence. Most wild Sassafras are pioneer trees that are prolific seeders and they come up like crazy in areas that have been disturbed. The shape of the tree is a nice pyramid form, very different for the norm. I may ask him for some cuttings.
                   
                  Joe Schild    Hixson, TN    7a
                   
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: 10/6/05 3:34:44 PM
                  Subject: Re: [AZ] Self-pollinated VS Cross pollinated

                  To dismiss the concept of close pollination, one has to conclude that all flowers on the same plant are genetically identical.  I don't think that is justifiable.  Mutations occur at a certain rate in both somatic and germ cells and they aren't always obvious.  The alteration of one nitrogenous base on the double helix which leads to a different amino acid in a peptide chain can result in a different gene product.  There is nothing "random" about transcription, in fact it is quite orderly.  But it isn't a perfect system either because it can be altered. 

                  What we see in your sassafras leaf variability is a function of genetic potential which is modulated by environmental factors (sun, moisture, temperature and/or nutrients).  If azaleas were raised in an optimal and controlled environment year after  year, I suspect they would be comparatively uniform with the exception of whatever mutations occur. 

                  Given that "genetic drift" naturally occurs between populations of plants. Why do you expect that it wouldn't occur between branches of the same plant?

                  Bill Miller
                  Bethesda, Maryland

                  S. M. Henning wrote:
                  "William C. Miller III" <bill@...> wrote:
                  
                    
                  I think you've stated the problem.  I don't believe all flowers on the
                  same plant are genetically identical.  I don't know what the actual
                  mutation rate is for azaleas but from a genetic point of view the
                  probability of two flowers on the same plant (close pollination) being
                  genetically distinct (think Satsuki as the extreme example) is pretty
                  high.  It seems to me that one single point mutation (a single amino
                  acid) is all it takes to make the distinction between "self" and "close"
                  valid.
                      
                  What makes you think that the variation on a Satsuki plant is 
                  genetic?  That would imply that leaves of a sassafras tree are 
                  genetically different because they have individual shapes. I have 
                  never seen any documentation for either.  I think the genetic 
                  structure of Satsukis is such that there is either a random 
                  probability in the coloration, or perhaps the coloration is affected 
                  by a variable such as a chemical that is sun, moisture, temperature 
                  and/or nutrient related.  In fact, research I have seen has shown 
                  that mutations are much less of a factor than they were believed to 
                  be in the '50s.  Sexual reproduction leads to genetic variation, but 
                  I have never heard anyone document that flower variation in a single 
                  plant was caused by genetic mutations except for one-of-a-kind sports 
                  that can be propagated true vegetatively but don't sport over and 
                  over again on a reproducible basis.
                    
                • Mike Creel
                  Bill: I tend to agree with your idea on the variability of flowers (individual blooms) on the same plant. This could explain why the exact same outcross of
                  Message 8 of 17 , Oct 7, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Bill: I tend to agree with your idea on the
                    variability of flowers (individual blooms) on the same
                    plant. This could explain why the exact same outcross
                    of two azaleas/rhododendrons (e.g. a red flammeum with
                    a white chapmani/minus) would produce heavy pod set
                    one season and little to none the next season. To add
                    another dimension, the flowers one season might be
                    different the next season on the same plant.

                    How do you explain the bloom variation of an evergreen
                    azalea such as White Moon, which predominately
                    red-orange solid, but ocassionally will produce one or
                    more large pure white flowers, with no in-between
                    color forms?

                    Mike Creel, SC, Zone 8a

                    --- "William C. Miller III" <bill@...>
                    wrote:

                    > To dismiss the concept of close pollination, one has
                    > to conclude that
                    > all flowers on the same plant are genetically
                    > identical. I don't think
                    > that is justifiable. Mutations occur at a certain
                    > rate in both somatic
                    > and germ cells and they aren't always obvious. The
                    > alteration of one
                    > nitrogenous base on the double helix which leads to
                    > a different amino
                    > acid in a peptide chain can result in a different
                    > gene product. There
                    > is nothing "random" about transcription, in fact it
                    > is quite orderly.
                    > But it isn't a perfect system either because it can
                    > be altered.
                    >
                    > What we see in your sassafras leaf variability is a
                    > function of genetic
                    > potential which is modulated by environmental
                    > factors (sun, moisture,
                    > temperature and/or nutrients). If azaleas were
                    > raised in an optimal and
                    > controlled environment year after year, I suspect
                    > they would be
                    > comparatively uniform with the exception of whatever
                    > mutations occur.
                    >
                    > Given that "genetic drift" naturally occurs between
                    > populations of
                    > plants. Why do you expect that it wouldn't occur
                    > between branches of the
                    > same plant?
                    >
                    > Bill Miller
                    > Bethesda, Maryland
                    >
                    > S. M. Henning wrote:





                    ______________________________________________________
                    Yahoo! for Good
                    Donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
                    http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/
                  • Mike Creel
                    Speaking of Sassafras, several year ago I nominated a tree that became the South Carolina state record, 17 feet, 2 inches around at the base in Clemson
                    Message 9 of 17 , Oct 7, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Speaking of Sassafras, several year ago I nominated a
                      tree that became the South Carolina state record, 17
                      feet, 2 inches around at the base in Clemson
                      University's record tree program. It was growing in
                      an open field near a farm house (Mr. Ferrell Shumpert
                      at Fairview crossroads in Lexington County) and was
                      plowed around for many years (until lightning killed
                      it recently), AND all the leaves on that tree were
                      single-lobed, like a finger, with NO variations (no
                      mittens) on the entire tree. Yesterday, on a field
                      trip near a waterfall/spring in the sandhills I noted
                      a group of smaller sassafras trees, all single lobed.

                      By the way Sassafras albidum has yellow flowers and
                      blue-black fruits.

                      Mike Creel, SC, Zone 8A

                      --- Joe Schild <azaleajoe@...> wrote:

                      > You will note that I kept quite on this issue after
                      > your reply, Bill, which answered my question with
                      > reliable data to support it. The additional
                      > information tends to reinforce the data. I guess I
                      > tend to challenge data I have not seen or goes
                      > against the information I have gleaned over the
                      > years until someone offers supportive information.
                      >
                      > I did find the notation on the Sassafras
                      > interesting, because my neighbor has one tree that
                      > has uniform leaves with no deviation from the three
                      > finger pattern. In over fifteen years, I have never
                      > seen a left mitten, right mitten, or single leaf
                      > shape emerge.The blooms, though mostly
                      > insignificant, are a nice red in the spring, the
                      > fruit are reddish, and the leaves also turn a
                      > reddish color in the fall. This tree may be nice to
                      > propagate for the trade. I tend to think it may be a
                      > mule since no seedlings have ever emerged in his or
                      > my yard or nursery pots that sit very close to the
                      > fence. Most wild Sassafras are pioneer trees that
                      > are prolific seeders and they come up like crazy in
                      > areas that have been disturbed. The shape of the
                      > tree is a nice pyramid form, very different for the
                      > norm. I may ask him for some cuttings.
                      >
                      > Joe Schild Hixson, TN 7a
                      >




                      __________________________________
                      Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
                      http://mail.yahoo.com
                    • Lightfoot, Paul
                      Check to see if I m right, but I believe, generally, that those parts of the sassafras tree receiving lots of sun produce the 3-lobed leaves, while those in
                      Message 10 of 17 , Oct 7, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Check to see if I'm right, but I believe, generally, that those parts of
                        the sassafras tree receiving lots of sun produce the 3-lobed leaves,
                        while those in the shade produce the others. Your tree out in the
                        middle of a field would receive sun to all its parts, while the ones
                        next to a spring probably didn't receive full sun at all. Believe it or
                        not, we have some rather large trees here in E. central Indiana.
                        Paul Lightfoot
                        Zone 5b

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: azaleas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:azaleas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                        Of Mike Creel
                        Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 10:39 AM
                        To: azaleas@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [AZ] Self-pollinated VS Cross pollinated - Variation in
                        leaf - Sassafras

                        Speaking of Sassafras, several year ago I nominated a
                        tree that became the South Carolina state record, 17
                        feet, 2 inches around at the base in Clemson
                        University's record tree program. It was growing in
                        an open field near a farm house (Mr. Ferrell Shumpert
                        at Fairview crossroads in Lexington County) and was
                        plowed around for many years (until lightning killed
                        it recently), AND all the leaves on that tree were
                        single-lobed, like a finger, with NO variations (no
                        mittens) on the entire tree. Yesterday, on a field
                        trip near a waterfall/spring in the sandhills I noted
                        a group of smaller sassafras trees, all single lobed.

                        By the way Sassafras albidum has yellow flowers and
                        blue-black fruits.

                        Mike Creel, SC, Zone 8A

                        --- Joe Schild <azaleajoe@...> wrote:

                        > You will note that I kept quite on this issue after
                        > your reply, Bill, which answered my question with
                        > reliable data to support it. The additional
                        > information tends to reinforce the data. I guess I
                        > tend to challenge data I have not seen or goes
                        > against the information I have gleaned over the
                        > years until someone offers supportive information.
                        >
                        > I did find the notation on the Sassafras
                        > interesting, because my neighbor has one tree that
                        > has uniform leaves with no deviation from the three
                        > finger pattern. In over fifteen years, I have never
                        > seen a left mitten, right mitten, or single leaf
                        > shape emerge.The blooms, though mostly
                        > insignificant, are a nice red in the spring, the
                        > fruit are reddish, and the leaves also turn a
                        > reddish color in the fall. This tree may be nice to
                        > propagate for the trade. I tend to think it may be a
                        > mule since no seedlings have ever emerged in his or
                        > my yard or nursery pots that sit very close to the
                        > fence. Most wild Sassafras are pioneer trees that
                        > are prolific seeders and they come up like crazy in
                        > areas that have been disturbed. The shape of the
                        > tree is a nice pyramid form, very different for the
                        > norm. I may ask him for some cuttings.
                        >
                        > Joe Schild Hixson, TN 7a
                        >




                        __________________________________
                        Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
                        http://mail.yahoo.com



                        When you reply to an email, PLEASE quote its relevant part(s) only, as
                        context, and DELETE the rest - especially this line and the Yahoo lines.
                        And PLEASE tell us your city, state and/or USDA zone.

                        We welcome attached images RESIZED to be under 100KB in size - 640 x 480
                        pixel JPEG images at 50% or 1:40 compression are ideal. By attaching
                        them you agree that, without giving up your rights to them, they may be
                        shown on Azalea Society websites.

                        To unsubscribe, send an email to: azaleas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com


                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                      • Wprzypek@aol.com
                        I live in VA, and I don t know how large Sassafras can grow, but I have two trees in my yard that are 25 to 30 fall, maybe more. The trunks are at least 8
                        Message 11 of 17 , Oct 7, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I live in VA, and I don't know how large Sassafras can grow, but I have two trees in my yard that are 25 to 30 fall, maybe more. The trunks are at least 8 inches in diameter.
                           
                          They have grown to that size from 12 feet high trees in the past 30 years.
                           
                          Walt Przypek
                          Yorktown, VA, zone 8a
                           
                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                          In a message dated 10/7/05 11:39:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mikeacreel@... writes:
                          Speaking of Sassafras, several year ago I nominated a
                          tree that became the South Carolina state record, 17
                          feet, 2 inches around at the base in Clemson
                          University's record tree program.  It was growing in
                          an open field near a farm house (Mr. Ferrell Shumpert
                          at Fairview crossroads in Lexington County) and was
                          plowed around for many years (until lightning killed
                          it recently), AND all the leaves
                           
                        • Mike Creel
                          Actually, the small, short single-lobed plants near the spring were at the edge of an opening, so they received a good bit of light. And the large, state
                          Message 12 of 17 , Oct 7, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Actually, the small, short single-lobed plants near
                            the spring were at the edge of an opening, so they
                            received a good bit of light. And the large, state
                            record tree was way out in the open, also with
                            single-lobed leaves. Maybe, with enough sun,
                            Sassafras does not need to form multiple lobes. The
                            single-lobed forms are difficult for me to identify.

                            We have a tall Gaylussacia, Huckleberry, that has
                            leaves very much like a single lobed sassafras. But
                            the huckleberry leaves have no good scent when when
                            crushed like the sassafras. The tall huckleberry, a
                            form of Gaylussacia frondosa, called tomentosa I
                            think, just grows in white cedar bogs her. I rooted
                            some last year with some Loblolly Bay, Gordonia
                            lasianthus.
                            I think Sassafras is kin to my large spice bush,
                            Lindera benzoin, which is unexpectedly self-fertile

                            Mike Creel, SC, Zone 8A

                            --- "Lightfoot, Paul" <pllightfo@...> wrote:

                            > Check to see if I'm right, but I believe, generally,
                            > that those parts of
                            > the sassafras tree receiving lots of sun produce the
                            > 3-lobed leaves,
                            > while those in the shade produce the others. Your
                            > tree out in the
                            > middle of a field would receive sun to all its
                            > parts, while the ones
                            > next to a spring probably didn't receive full sun at
                            > all. Believe it or
                            > not, we have some rather large trees here in E.
                            > central Indiana.
                            > Paul Lightfoot
                            > Zone 5b
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: azaleas@yahoogroups.com
                            > [mailto:azaleas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                            > Of Mike Creel
                            > Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 10:39 AM
                            > To: azaleas@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: Re: [AZ] Self-pollinated VS Cross
                            > pollinated - Variation in
                            > leaf - Sassafras
                            >
                            > Speaking of Sassafras, several year ago I nominated
                            > a
                            > tree that became the South Carolina state record, 17
                            > feet, 2 inches around at the base in Clemson
                            > University's record tree program. It was growing in
                            > an open field near a farm house (Mr. Ferrell
                            > Shumpert
                            > at Fairview crossroads in Lexington County) and was
                            > plowed around for many years (until lightning killed
                            > it recently), AND all the leaves on that tree were
                            > single-lobed, like a finger, with NO variations (no
                            > mittens) on the entire tree. Yesterday, on a field
                            > trip near a waterfall/spring in the sandhills I
                            > noted
                            > a group of smaller sassafras trees, all single
                            > lobed.
                            >
                            > By the way Sassafras albidum has yellow flowers and
                            > blue-black fruits.
                            >
                            > Mike Creel, SC, Zone 8A
                            >
                            > --- Joe Schild <azaleajoe@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > You will note that I kept quite on this issue
                            > after
                            > > your reply, Bill, which answered my question with
                            > > reliable data to support it. The additional
                            > > information tends to reinforce the data. I guess I
                            > > tend to challenge data I have not seen or goes
                            > > against the information I have gleaned over the
                            > > years until someone offers supportive information.
                            > >
                            > > I did find the notation on the Sassafras
                            > > interesting, because my neighbor has one tree that
                            > > has uniform leaves with no deviation from the
                            > three
                            > > finger pattern. In over fifteen years, I have
                            > never
                            > > seen a left mitten, right mitten, or single leaf
                            > > shape emerge.The blooms, though mostly
                            > > insignificant, are a nice red in the spring, the
                            > > fruit are reddish, and the leaves also turn a
                            > > reddish color in the fall. This tree may be nice
                            > to
                            > > propagate for the trade. I tend to think it may be
                            > a
                            > > mule since no seedlings have ever emerged in his
                            > or
                            > > my yard or nursery pots that sit very close to the
                            > > fence. Most wild Sassafras are pioneer trees that
                            > > are prolific seeders and they come up like crazy
                            > in
                            > > areas that have been disturbed. The shape of the
                            > > tree is a nice pyramid form, very different for
                            > the
                            > > norm. I may ask him for some cuttings.
                            > >
                            > > Joe Schild Hixson, TN 7a
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > __________________________________
                            > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
                            > http://mail.yahoo.com
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > When you reply to an email, PLEASE quote its
                            > relevant part(s) only, as
                            > context, and DELETE the rest - especially this line
                            > and the Yahoo lines.
                            > And PLEASE tell us your city, state and/or USDA
                            > zone.
                            >
                            > We welcome attached images RESIZED to be under 100KB
                            > in size - 640 x 480
                            > pixel JPEG images at 50% or 1:40 compression are
                            > ideal. By attaching
                            > them you agree that, without giving up your rights
                            > to them, they may be
                            > shown on Azalea Society websites.
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
                            > azaleas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >




                            __________________________________
                            Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
                            http://mail.yahoo.com
                          • S. M. Henning
                            ... Simple, because it occurs during meiosis and not during mitosis. -- Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA Zone 6 Visit my Rhododendron and Azalea web
                            Message 13 of 17 , Oct 8, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              "William C. Miller III" <bill@...> wrote:

                              >Given that "genetic drift" naturally occurs between populations of
                              >plants. Why do you expect that it wouldn't occur between branches of the
                              >same plant?

                              Simple, because it occurs during meiosis and not during mitosis.
                              --
                              Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA Zone 6

                              Visit my Rhododendron and Azalea web pages at:
                              http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman/rhody.html

                              Also visit the Rhododendron and Azalea Bookstore at:
                              http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman/rhodybooks.html
                            • Bob Stelloh
                              At 8:10 AM -0400 on 10/8/05, S. M. Henning wrote ... That sounds good -- but what does it mean to those of us who have forgotten all we ever learned in biology
                              Message 14 of 17 , Oct 8, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                At 8:10 AM -0400 on 10/8/05, S. M. Henning wrote
                                >"William C. Miller III" <bill@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >>Given that "genetic drift" naturally occurs between populations of
                                >>plants. Why do you expect that it wouldn't occur between branches of the
                                >>same plant?
                                >
                                >Simple, because it occurs during meiosis and not during mitosis.
                                >--
                                >Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA Zone 6
                                >
                                >Visit my Rhododendron and Azalea web pages at:
                                >http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman/rhody.html
                                >
                                >Also visit the Rhododendron and Azalea Bookstore at:
                                >http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman/rhodybooks.html

                                That sounds good -- but what does it mean to those of us who have
                                forgotten all we ever learned in biology classes too many years ago.
                                Could you elaborate on meiosis vs mitosis?

                                Regards,
                                Bob Stelloh Hendersonville NC USDA Zone 7
                              • S. M. Henning
                                ... Meiosis is sexual nucleus fusion and cell division. Mitosis is asexual cell division. Sexual drift only occurs during sexual nucleus fusion and cell
                                Message 15 of 17 , Oct 9, 2005
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  > >"William C. Miller III" <bill@...> wrote:
                                  > >>Given that "genetic drift" naturally occurs between populations of
                                  > >>plants. Why do you expect that it wouldn't occur between branches of the
                                  > >>same plant?

                                  I wrote:

                                  > >Simple, because it occurs during meiosis and not during mitosis.

                                  Bob Stelloh <bstelloh@...> wrote:

                                  >That sounds good -- but what does it mean to those of us who have
                                  >forgotten all we ever learned in biology classes too many years ago.
                                  >Could you elaborate on meiosis vs mitosis?

                                  Meiosis is sexual nucleus fusion and cell division. Mitosis is
                                  asexual cell division.

                                  Sexual drift only occurs during sexual nucleus fusion and cell
                                  division. That only occurs once per creation of an offspring and can
                                  not explain variation on a single offspring. Variation within a
                                  plant is best explained like the variation in sassafras in which the
                                  variation is enhanced by the amount of light a plant gets or some
                                  other cultural factor. I am not aware of any research that indicates
                                  any other explanation for random variation within a plant. Of course
                                  sporting caused by mutations does occur, but it does not occur on all
                                  vegetative siblings but just randomly on some. In the Satsukis all
                                  vegetative siblings (cuttings) exhibit the same random behavior just
                                  as all sassafras exhibit the same behavior.
                                  --
                                  Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA Zone 6

                                  Visit my Rhododendron and Azalea web pages at:
                                  http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman/rhody.html

                                  Also visit the Rhododendron and Azalea Bookstore at:
                                  http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman/rhodybooks.html
                                • William C. Miller III
                                  Steve, You are suggesting that there is no role for mitosis in genetic drift? The cause of genetic drift is a breakdown in the duplication process of the DNA.
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Oct 12, 2005
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Steve,

                                    You are suggesting that there is no role for mitosis in genetic drift?

                                    The cause of genetic drift is a breakdown in the duplication process of the DNA.  A breakdown can occur in either meiosis (germ cell production) or mitosis (somatic cell division).  Meiosis is relevant to the reduction/division process of gamete production, but we're not really looking at sexual reproduction.  Any plant tissue developing from regular cell division after a mutation in somatic cells on a site of new growth would be different from that point on.  Flowers subsequently derived after the mutation would be genetically distinctive from flowers derived on any other branch.  I don't believe one can ignore close pollination.

                                    Bill Miller
                                    Bethesda, Maryland


                                    S. M. Henning wrote:
                                    "William C. Miller III" <bill@...> wrote:
                                    
                                      
                                    Given that "genetic drift" naturally occurs between populations of
                                    plants. Why do you expect that it wouldn't occur between branches of the
                                    same plant?
                                        
                                    Simple, because it occurs during meiosis and not during mitosis.
                                      
                                  • Mike Creel
                                    How do we account for the stem or branch mutations or sports (some lasting, some temporary) that occur in species and varieties of azaleas. This past season I
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Oct 12, 2005
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      How do we account for the stem or branch mutations or
                                      sports (some lasting, some temporary) that occur in
                                      species and varieties of azaleas.

                                      This past season I photographed 4 different color and
                                      flower forms on one George Lindley Tabor azalea. I
                                      stuck cuttings from each of the new (to me) forms, but
                                      I think they may have perished.

                                      Also this past season I observed and photographed a
                                      truss of yellow flowers beside a branch of red-orange
                                      flowers on a calendulaceum X prunifolium hybrid,
                                      blooming at the same time. But the yellow truss
                                      darkened to near orange as it aged, typical of most
                                      calendulaceum varieties in their color changing.
                                      Mike Creel, SC, Zone 8a

                                      --- "William C. Miller III" <bill@...>
                                      wrote:

                                      > Steve,
                                      >
                                      > You are suggesting that there is no role for mitosis
                                      > in genetic drift?
                                      >
                                      > The cause of genetic drift is a breakdown in the
                                      > duplication process of
                                      > the DNA. A breakdown can occur in either meiosis
                                      > (germ cell production)
                                      > or mitosis (somatic cell division). Meiosis is
                                      > relevant to the
                                      > reduction/division process of gamete production, but
                                      > we're not really
                                      > looking at sexual reproduction. Any plant tissue
                                      > developing from
                                      > regular cell division after a mutation in somatic
                                      > cells on a site of new
                                      > growth would be different from that point on.
                                      > Flowers subsequently
                                      > derived after the mutation would be genetically
                                      > distinctive from flowers
                                      > derived on any other branch. I don't believe one
                                      > can ignore close
                                      > pollination.
                                      >
                                      > Bill Miller
                                      > Bethesda, Maryland
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > S. M. Henning wrote:
                                      >
                                      > >"William C. Miller III" <bill@...>
                                      > wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >>Given that "genetic drift" naturally occurs
                                      > between populations of
                                      > >>plants. Why do you expect that it wouldn't occur
                                      > between branches of the
                                      > >>same plant?
                                      > >>
                                      > >>
                                      > >
                                      > >Simple, because it occurs during meiosis and not
                                      > during mitosis.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >




                                      __________________________________
                                      Yahoo! Music Unlimited
                                      Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
                                      http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/
                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.