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Re: [AZ] Pollination Tricks to get around incompatibility

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  • William C. Miller III
    Mike, I don t think I would use Snow for breeding. It might convey to the progeny the tendency for the spent flower to persist. Bill Miller Bethesda,
    Message 1 of 7 , Feb 1, 2004
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      Mike,

      I don't think I would use 'Snow' for breeding. It might convey to the
      progeny the tendency for the spent flower to persist.

      Bill Miller
      Bethesda, Maryland

      Mike Creel wrote:

      > The pollination trick that may have worked for me last
      > summer occurred when pollinating my Early Prune
      > prunifolium with pollen from nearby Fourth of July Rh.
      > oldhami. I accidentally broke the stem (partially) of
      > the prunifolium flower, and thought for sure the
      > broken stem would die before forming a seed pod, but
      > it didn't, healing instead and forming a fat pod. In
      > my file I have a list of pollenation "tricks" to use
      > in getting around icompatibility.
      >
      > The pollination trick to get around incompatibility of
      > two plants is to trim off the stigma down close to the
      > ovary of the flower and pollinate the cut end, not the
      > normal polliantion end (the stigma/style or whatever
      > you call it). I have not tried this trick yet,
      > something suggested by Clarence Towe and others, but I
      > will this spring-summer when putting evergreen pollen
      > from tet azaleas onto flowers of my two oldest yellow
      > cals - Walhalla Gold and Wingard's gold. I have other
      > yellow cals as younger plants or rooted cuttings, but
      > none others have bloom buds set for 2004. I have
      > sought some additional pure yellow calls budded for
      > 2004, but without success.
      > As you suggested I will save some Glacier pollen
      > (since it blooms before the cals I think) to pollinate
      > some yellow cal trusses. My Glaciers this past year
      > set heavy seed, pollen parent unknown, some of which I
      > saved to plant a pot. Would Snow be worth using for
      > cross pollinatin? Have you ever grown the Primitive
      > Beauty azalea? I have a Gumpo White and Hardy
      > Gardenia azalea that I might also try crossing with.
      > I have some perfect small tags ready to place when
      > crossing.
      >
      > I don't think anyone now propagates and sells the
      > Cliff Gann azalea, would love to try it sometime. Do
      > you have a photo" Was Cliff Gann's old garden
      > destroyed entirely? Were any plants rescued and
      > moved? Somehow, old cultivars you thought were lost
      > turn up, often as single plant.
      >
      >
    • Mike Creel
      Bill, that is a good point about Snow that I missed. Do you know anything about the parents of Glacier (color, etc.), which Joe Schild mentioned an an earlier
      Message 2 of 7 , Feb 1, 2004
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        Bill, that is a good point about Snow that I missed.
        Do you know anything about the parents of Glacier
        (color, etc.), which Joe Schild mentioned an an
        earlier message? I wonder if any of the Aromi
        deciduous yellow hybrids (which contain tetraploid
        Exbury blood) would be valuable as seed parents,
        pollinated with white evergreen azala pollen. I grow
        the yellow Aromi Sunstruck and the orange-yellow Aromi
        Sunrise, both budded for 2004.
        --- "William C. Miller III" <bill@...>
        wrote:
        > Mike,
        >
        > I don't think I would use 'Snow' for breeding. It
        > might convey to the
        > progeny the tendency for the spent flower to
        > persist.
        >
        > Bill Miller
        > Bethesda, Maryland
        >
        > Mike Creel wrote:
        >
        > > The pollination trick that may have worked for me
        > last
        > > summer occurred when pollinating my Early Prune
        > > prunifolium with pollen from nearby Fourth of July
        > Rh.
        > > oldhami. I accidentally broke the stem (partially)
        > of
        > > the prunifolium flower, and thought for sure the
        > > broken stem would die before forming a seed pod,
        > but
        > > it didn't, healing instead and forming a fat pod.
        > In
        > > my file I have a list of pollenation "tricks" to
        > use
        > > in getting around icompatibility.
        > >
        > > The pollination trick to get around
        > incompatibility of
        > > two plants is to trim off the stigma down close to
        > the
        > > ovary of the flower and pollinate the cut end, not
        > the
        > > normal polliantion end (the stigma/style or
        > whatever
        > > you call it). I have not tried this trick yet,
        > > something suggested by Clarence Towe and others,
        > but I
        > > will this spring-summer when putting evergreen
        > pollen
        > > from tet azaleas onto flowers of my two oldest
        > yellow
        > > cals - Walhalla Gold and Wingard's gold. I have
        > other
        > > yellow cals as younger plants or rooted cuttings,
        > but
        > > none others have bloom buds set for 2004. I have
        > > sought some additional pure yellow calls budded
        > for
        > > 2004, but without success.
        > > As you suggested I will save some Glacier pollen
        > > (since it blooms before the cals I think) to
        > pollinate
        > > some yellow cal trusses. My Glaciers this past
        > year
        > > set heavy seed, pollen parent unknown, some of
        > which I
        > > saved to plant a pot. Would Snow be worth using
        > for
        > > cross pollinatin? Have you ever grown the
        > Primitive
        > > Beauty azalea? I have a Gumpo White and Hardy
        > > Gardenia azalea that I might also try crossing
        > with.
        > > I have some perfect small tags ready to place when
        > > crossing.
        > >
        > > I don't think anyone now propagates and sells the
        > > Cliff Gann azalea, would love to try it sometime.
        > Do
        > > you have a photo" Was Cliff Gann's old garden
        > > destroyed entirely? Were any plants rescued and
        > > moved? Somehow, old cultivars you thought were
        > lost
        > > turn up, often as single plant.
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >


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      • Buddy Lee
        Actually Snow may be a very good pollen plant for a dec. azalea X evergreen azalea project. From my past experience, the pollen from Snow seems to be
        Message 3 of 7 , Feb 1, 2004
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          Actually 'Snow' may be a very good pollen plant for a dec. azalea X evergreen azalea project.  From my past experience, the pollen from 'Snow' seems to be hyper-fertile.  In matter of fact, I sometimes refer to 'Snow' as 'The Man'.  Which gets a chuckled from a couple of my friends. Every flower that I have ever pollinated with 'Snow' pollen has produced nice seed pods and has resulted in many viable seedlings.  'Snow' has a complete hose-in-hose flower which makes it sterile for seed pod development. I will agree that 'Snow' has some problem with spent flowers holding on to the plant.  The resulting seedling from using 'Snow' pollen times other evergreen azaleas have been very sturdy plants with heavy blooming traits.

           The Aromi Hybrids or the Tom Dodd Hybrids may be better choice to use than R. calendulaceum in a dec. azalea X evergreen azalea project.  The resulting seedling from such a cross are usually weak and unstable to start with.  I feel that if you use plants that are more adaptable to larger geographic area, your chances improve for having more sturdy seedlings.  Plus the Aromi and Dodd hybrids set seed pods very easy and produce a lot of pollen.  I would ques that the Aromi and Dodd hybrids are tetraploid.

           

           


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        • Mike Creel
          I have read a number of articles by more educated folks than I regarding the apparent non-value of native, wild mycorrhizae in azalea and rhododendron
          Message 4 of 7 , Feb 1, 2004
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            I have read a number of articles by more educated
            folks than I regarding the apparent non-value of
            native, wild mycorrhizae in azalea and rhododendron
            propagation and growth. But I still believe that it
            works for me outside using Nature as the laboratory,
            not a greenhouse and sterilized pots. I think possibly
            it is pure magic provided by nature. Or perhaps
            propagating plants is like catching fish, you have to
            let the fish, or plants, think that they are smarter
            than you, and only then will they take in interest in
            your lure, or with plants in rooting and growing.
            That is my belief and I am sticking to it. Some
            things you cannot measure and put into bottle, but
            they are there nonetheless.
            Mike Creel in South Carolina

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          • Don Hyatt
            Mike and others, With azalea crosses I have made over the years, it seems that purple genes are profoundly dominant. I remember my surprise when I crossed a
            Message 5 of 7 , Feb 2, 2004
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              Mike and others,
              With azalea crosses I have made over the years, it seems that purple
              genes are profoundly dominant. I remember my surprise when I crossed a
              white R. kiusianum album with an orange-red R. nakaharae, and every
              seedling was lavender! I was expecting some dwarf pink to salmon shades
              but certainly not purples. The production of flower color in azaleas is
              likely controlled by a number of genes, so I suspect that R. kiusianum
              album probably has most of the genes necessary to produce purple
              (typical for that species) but is probably missing a component that
              blocks the production of pigment somewhere along the way and thus the
              phenotype is white. The nakaharae side of the cross must have supplied
              whatever was missing in that pathway and thus the purple genes showed
              their dominance in the F1 cross.

              Even though the purple 'Malvatica' was one of the parents of 'Glacier',
              my experience in using the latter as a parent indicates that purple
              genes are not present. I have used 'Glacier' in many crosses and I
              don't recall ever seeing purple seedlings when crossed with non-purples.
              I would highly recommend using 'Glacier' as a parent when one wants to
              use it as a "blank slate" with which to cross with other colors. When I
              crossed 'Glacier' with R. kiusianum album, it produced some nice
              semi-dwarf whites with nice shiny leaves which was what I had expected.

              One advantage to using 'Glacier' as a parent is that does have wonderful
              evergreen foliage that seems to be dominant in crosses. Many years ago
              I crossed 'Glacier' with the pollen of the Exbury azalea 'Brightstraw'.
              Like many hybridizers, my goal was an evergreen azalea with yellow color
              and I had hoped the dominant evergreen foliage of 'Glacier' might come
              through. I did obtain seed, but as Joe Schild pointed out in earlier
              email on the topic of yellow evergreen azalea breeding, the seedlings
              were very sickly and chlorotic. None of them survived to flowering
              size. If they had bloomed, I suspect the progeny would have been
              triploid and sterile since I suspect that most of those Knap Hill and
              Exbury types are already polyploid. Someone might be lucky in getting
              the elusive yellow evergreen azalea on a first cross, but I really
              suspect it will take several generations to get the desired results.

              Since polyploid sterility will be likely be a problem, I wonder if a
              better approach might be to try crossing evergreen azaleas with the
              diploid species that have yellow coloration such as as R. austrinum or
              R. cumberlandense rather than R. calendulaceum. If we can get some first
              generation plants that actually reach blooming age, they might produce
              unreduced gametes, something that I understand happens with
              interspecific crosses of our native azaleas, especially in those hybrid
              swarms that eventually incorporate calendulaceum in the mix. That way,
              second generation hybrids might be tetraploid rather than higher
              polyploidy and will probably still be fertile. If any buds on my R.
              austrinum plants survive this awful winter, I may try a few of those
              wide crosses when spring comes.

              Unfortunately, I don't have any plants left from my kiusianum album
              crosses since more robust things have choked them out over the years.
              None of the seedlings were good enough themselves to introduce, but they
              would have made interesting breeding stock for future generations. Now
              that I have retired, I am anxious to pursue those lines again but I
              guess I will have to start from scratch. At least I won't be too
              surprised at seeing purple flowers in the early generations. After
              all, it took Joe Gable 16 years and somewhere around 800 to 1000
              seedlings (most of which were purple) before he got that one
              exceptional, hose-in-hose white seedling that he named 'Rose Greeley'.
              I think the lineage was something like [(poukhanense x mucronatum
              'Ledifolia alba') x sibling] x [(poukhanense x 'Hexe') x (poukhanense x
              kaempferi)]. I suspect that breeding for the perfect yellow evergreen
              azalea will take similar perseverance on our parts.

              Don Hyatt
              McLean, VA (Supposed to be Zone 7 but seems more like Zone 5 this year... )

              Mike Creel wrote:

              > Bill, that is a good point about Snow that I missed.
              > Do you know anything about the parents of Glacier
              > (color, etc.), which Joe Schild mentioned an an
              > earlier message? I wonder if any of the Aromi
              > deciduous yellow hybrids (which contain tetraploid
              > Exbury blood) would be valuable as seed parents,
              > pollinated with white evergreen azalea pollen. I grow
              > the yellow Aromi Sunstruck and the orange-yellow Aromi
              > Sunrise, both budded for 2004.
              > --- "William C. Miller III" <bill@...>
              > wrote:
              > > Mike,
              > >
              > > I don't think I would use 'Snow' for breeding. It
              > > might convey to the
              > > progeny the tendency for the spent flower to
              > > persist.
              > >
              > > Bill Miller
              > > Bethesda, Maryland
              > >
              > > Mike Creel wrote:
              > >
              > > > The pollination trick that may have worked for me
              > > last
              > > > summer occurred when pollinating my Early Prune
              > > > prunifolium with pollen from nearby Fourth of July
              > > Rh.
              > > > oldhami. I accidentally broke the stem (partially)
              > > of
              > > > the prunifolium flower, and thought for sure the
              > > > broken stem would die before forming a seed pod,
              > > but
              > > > it didn't, healing instead and forming a fat pod.
              > > In
              > > > my file I have a list of pollenation "tricks" to
              > > use
              > > > in getting around icompatibility.
              > > >
              > > > The pollination trick to get around
              > > incompatibility of
              > > > two plants is to trim off the stigma down close to
              > > the
              > > > ovary of the flower and pollinate the cut end, not
              > > the
              > > > normal polliantion end (the stigma/style or
              > > whatever
              > > > you call it). I have not tried this trick yet,
              > > > something suggested by Clarence Towe and others,
              > > but I
              > > > will this spring-summer when putting evergreen
              > > pollen
              > > > from tet azaleas onto flowers of my two oldest
              > > yellow
              > > > cals - Walhalla Gold and Wingard's gold. I have
              > > other
              > > > yellow cals as younger plants or rooted cuttings,
              > > but
              > > > none others have bloom buds set for 2004. I have
              > > > sought some additional pure yellow calls budded
              > > for
              > > > 2004, but without success.
              > > > As you suggested I will save some Glacier pollen
              > > > (since it blooms before the cals I think) to
              > > pollinate
              > > > some yellow cal trusses. My Glaciers this past
              > > year
              > > > set heavy seed, pollen parent unknown, some of
              > > which I
              > > > saved to plant a pot. Would Snow be worth using
              > > for
              > > > cross pollinatin? Have you ever grown the
              > > Primitive
              > > > Beauty azalea? I have a Gumpo White and Hardy
              > > > Gardenia azalea that I might also try crossing
              > > with.
              > > > I have some perfect small tags ready to place when
              > > > crossing.
              > > >
              > > > I don't think anyone now propagates and sells the
              > > > Cliff Gann azalea, would love to try it sometime.
              > > Do
              > > > you have a photo" Was Cliff Gann's old garden
              > > > destroyed entirely? Were any plants rescued and
              > > > moved? Somehow, old cultivars you thought were
              > > lost
              > > > turn up, often as single plant.
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
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