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RE: [AZ] Mt. Tamalpaies occidentale seedlings planted Aug. 18, 2011 [2 Attachments]

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  • Harold Greer
    I have to add this attached picture. Sometimes our best laid plans for making plants grow go astray, like this bridge to nowhere . I believe this bridge
    Message 1 of 5 , Jan 8, 2012

    I have to add this attached picture.  Sometimes our best laid plans for making plants grow go astray, like this “bridge to nowhere”.  I believe this bridge builder missed his mark. That is what happens when you build from both sides and don’t meet in the middle!

     

    Harold Greer

     

    From: azaleas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:azaleas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Harold Greer
    Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 7:49 PM
    To: azaleas@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: RE: [AZ] Mt. Tamalpaies occidentale seedlings planted Aug. 18, 2011 [2 Attachments]

     

     

    [Attachment(s) from Harold Greer included below]

    While there is truth in what George says, I do not believe that is the case with R. occidentale or R. albiflorum.  Certainly some plants are more adaptable than others, for example plants we call “weeds” that seem to grow anywhere within reason.  It is not unreasonable for a plant that is native on the other side of the world, to grow in Oregon for example.  This assumes its native conditions (temperature, moisture, etc.) are somewhat similar to its native location.

     

    R. albiflorum while it is native less than 75 air miles from my location in the Willamette Valley of Oregon, the climate and soil temperatures are much different than here.  It typically grows on 45 degree slopes in rock that has a water source of cold snow melt.  The soil temperature is seldom over 70°F and even the air temperature is not much hotter than that and if it is, it is only for a few days when the humidity is low and the night temperature is less than 50°F.  Contrast that with the East Coast of the US where temperatures are over 80°F even at night for a long time and the humidity is high.  You then will understand why it is difficult to grow outside of that environment. And it is certainly not a plant that is easily adaptable to other conditions.   Even in the Willamette Valley, in the summer we can have soil temperatures over 75°F for six weeks or more, though our night time air temperatures are cool, our day time temperatures can run 85°F or more for weeks at a time.  OK, then why does R. albiflorum grow only 75 miles away?   Because the elevation where it grows is 6000 feet and the Willamette Valley is from 500 to 100 feet in elevation and that makes a big difference!

     

    I say to Mike, continue to try.  Being “hardheaded” as you said you were is good and I certainly think you have produced some interesting results with your work.  But, I also have enough “common sense” to understand why some plants are difficult to grow in a different environment.  Through selection and hybridizing we can make plants that normally would not grow in a certain area become useful in areas where they would not normally grow, for example whoever though azaleas would be yard shrubs in Minnesota and they are now.

     

    Keep up the good work Mike, but I still do not expect R. occidentale or R. albiflorum to thrive in the Southeast.

     

    Harold Greer

    Zone 8, current temperature 37°F with fog.  It was a beautiful sunny day with a high of about 55°F

     

    From: azaleas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:azaleas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of George Klump
    Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 4:24 PM
    To: azaleas@yahoogroups.com; Mike Creel
    Subject: Re: [AZ] Mt. Tamalpaies occidentale seedlings planted Aug. 18, 2011

     

     

    8 January 2012

    Good for you, Mike.  It may be that the R. occidentale is similar to the Matillija Poppy in this regard, i.e. it must be planted during a certain time of year.  My mother had brought a whole set of MP's from our old place [where I grew up] to the new house my dad built.  They grew and bloomed like mad, the flowers sometimes almost resembling paper cut-outs. 

    However, when I went to transplant some to our place in the same general area, I met with failure several times.  Finally, I discovered that these plants, the MP, can only be moved during the months of October - December.  Earlier or later does not work.  So I tried planting, actually, transplanting during those months AND it worked!  :-D It may be that the R. occidentale has some peculiarities of that nature, too. 

    George E. Klump
    Southern California Chapter, ARS/ASA





    On 1/7/2012 8:33 PM, Mike Creel wrote:

     

    I know that planting azalea seeds under lights indoors is a very popular and effective method.  I used to do that myself with great results.  But indoors for me is no longer an option, so I have tried, tested and experimented with various outdoor seed planting methods, mostly using containers of various sorts.  Outdoors seed starting, even in my warmed hardiness zone, is of course slower than indoors under fluorescent lights, but it has some advantages in that seedlings become hardened off by nature's climate changes and only the strong survive.

     

    I, like many on the east coast have experienced problems in growing and establishing the Western Azalea Rhododendron occidentale from seeds, cuttings and plants.  I have most often lost plants when transitioning them to an outdoors planting site.  On August 18, 2011 I planted a number of occidentale seed groups surface sown outdoors onto rotted pine bark fines over a tilled bed protected with hardware cloth, 1/4 inch wire mesh. 

     

    Almost 5 months since planting have passed and germination and survival of the occidentale seedlings outdoors has been acceptable.  The surviving seedlings have not suffered with the mercury dipping down to a low of 15 degrees Fahrenheit, and have kept their leaves surprisingly.  The seedling and group of seedlings in the attached two photos are from seeds collected at Mount Tamalpais two years ago.  I am surprised by the hairiness of the seedlings.

     

    The seedlings were planted around a recently felled pine stump and receive well water periodically from our front yard rainbird sprinkler.  Everyone cross your fingers on these plants survival and maturing.  I am now thinking that direct outdoor sowing may have its advantages for difficult species,

     

    Mike Creel, SC USDA Zone 8a
    Lexington, South Carolina

     

  • rick wilmoth
    I tried to attach pics I took in So- Oregon of native Rhodies. Tell me if you got them. Rick. To: azaleas@yahoogroups.com From: hgreer@greergardens.com Date:
    Message 2 of 5 , Jan 10, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      I tried to attach pics I took in So- Oregon of native Rhodies. Tell me if you got them. Rick.


      To: azaleas@yahoogroups.com
      From: hgreer@...
      Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 21:11:16 -0800
      Subject: RE: [AZ] Mt. Tamalpaies occidentale seedlings planted Aug. 18, 2011 [1 Attachment]
      file://localhost/Users/rickwilmoth/Pictures/iPhoto%20Library/Originals/2011/Jun%2030,%202011/IMG_0207.JPG
       
      [Attachment(s) from Harold Greefile://localhost/Users/rickwilmoth/Pictures/iPhoto%20Library/Originals/2011/Jun%2030,%202011/IMG_0204.JPGr included below]file:file://file://localhost/Users/rickwilmoth/Pictures/iPhoto%20Library/Originals/2011/Jun%2030,%202011/IMG_0206.JPGlocalhost/Users/rickfile://localhost/Users/rickwilmoth/Pictures/iPhoto%20Library/Originals/2011/Jun%2030,%202011/IMG_0203.JPGwilmoth/Pictures/iPhoto%20Library/Modified/2011/Jun%2030,%202011/IMG_0208.JPG//localhost/Users/rickwilmoth/Pictures/iPhoto%20Library/Originals/2011/Jun%2030,%202011/IMG_0203.JPG

      I have to add this attached picture.  Sometimes our best laid plans for mfile://localhost/Users/rickwilmoth/Pictures/iPhoto%20Library/Originals/2011/Jun%2030,%202011/IMG_0204.JPGaking plants grow go astray, like this “bridge to nowhere”.  I believe this bridge builder missed his mark. That is what happens when you build from both sides and don’t meet in the middle!

       

      Harold Greer

       

      From: azaleas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:azaleas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Harold Greer
      Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 7:49 PM
      To: azaleas@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [AZ] Mt. Tamalpaies occidentale seedlings planted Aug. 18, 2011 [2 Attachments]

       

       

      [Attachment(s) from Harold Greer included below]

      While there is truth in what George says, I do not believe that is the case with R. occidentale or R. albiflorum.  Certainly some plants are more adaptable than others, for example plants we call “weeds” that seem to grow anywhere within reason.  It is not unreasonable for a plant that is native on the other side of the world, to grow in Oregon for example.  This assumes its native conditions (temperature, moisture, etc.) are somewhat similar to its native location.

       

      R. albiflorum while it is native less than 75 air miles from my location in the Willamette Valley of Oregon, the climate and soil temperatures are much different than here.  It typically grows on 45 degree slopes in rock that has a water source of cold snow melt.  The soil temperature is seldom over 70°F and even the air temperature is not much hotter than that and if it is, it is only for a few days when the humidity is low and the night temperature is less than 50°F.  Contrast that with the East Coast of the US where temperatures are over 80°F even at night for a long time and the humidity is high.  You then will understand why it is difficult to grow outside of that environment. And it is certainly not a plant that is easily adaptable to other conditions.   Even in the Willamette Valley, in the summer we can have soil temperatures over 75°F for six weeks or more, though our night time air temperatures are cool, our day time temperatures can run 85°F or more for weeks at a time.  OK, then why does R. albiflorum grow only 75 miles away?   Because the elevation where it grows is 6000 feet and the Willamette Valley is from 500 to 100 feet in elevation and that makes a big difference!

       

      I say to Mike, continue to try.  Being “hardheaded” as you said you were is good and I certainly think you have produced some interesting results with your work.  But, I also have enough “common sense” to understand why some plants are difficult to grow in a different environment.  Through selection and hybridizing we can make plants that normally would not grow in a certain area become useful in areas where they would not normally grow, for example whoever though azaleas would be yard shrubs in Minnesota and they are now.

       

      Keep up the good work Mike, but I still do not expect R. occidentale or R. albiflorum to thrive in the Southeast.

       

      Harold Greer

      Zone 8, current temperature 37°F with fog.  It was a beautiful sunny day with a high of about 55°F

       

      From: azaleas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:azaleas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of George Klump
      Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 4:24 PM
      To: azaleas@yahoogroups.com; Mike Creel
      Subject: Re: [AZ] Mt. Tamalpaies occidentale seedlings planted Aug. 18, 2011

       

       

      8 January 2012

      Good for you, Mike.  It may be that the R. occidentale is similar to the Matillija Poppy in this regard, i.e. it must be planted during a certain time of year.  My mother had brought a whole set of MP's from our old place [where I grew up] to the new house my dad built.  They grew and bloomed like mad, the flowers sometimes almost resembling paper cut-outs. 

      However, when I went to transplant some to our place in the same general area, I met with failure several times.  Finally, I discovered that these plants, the MP, can only be moved during the months of October - December.  Earlier or later does not work.  So I tried planting, actually, transplanting during those months AND it worked!  :-D It may be that the R. occidentale has some peculiarities of that nature, too. 

      George E. Klump
      Southern California Chapter, ARS/ASA





      On 1/7/2012 8:33 PM, Mike Creel wrote:

       

      I know that planting azalea seeds under lights indoors is a very popular and effective method.  I used to do that myself with great results.  But indoors for me is no longer an option, so I have tried, tested and experimented with various outdoor seed planting methods, mostly using containers of various sorts.  Outdoors seed starting, even in my warmed hardiness zone, is of course slower than indoors under fluorescent lights, but it has some advantages in that seedlings become hardened off by nature's climate changes and only the strong survive.

       

      I, like many on the east coast have experienced problems in growing and establishing the Western Azalea Rhododendron occidentale from seeds, cuttings and plants.  I have most often lost plants when transitioning them to an outdoors planting site.  On August 18, 2011 I planted a number of occidentale seed groups surface sown outdoors onto rotted pine bark fines over a tilled bed protected with hardware cloth, 1/4 inch wire mesh. 

       

      Almost 5 months since planting have passed and germination and survival of the occidentale seedlings outdoors has been acceptable.  The surviving seedlings have not suffered with the mercury dipping down to a low of 15 degrees Fahrenheit, and have kept their leaves surprisingly.  The seedling and group of seedlings in the attached two photos are from seeds collected at Mount Tamalpais two years ago.  I am surprised by the hairiness of the seedlings.

       

      The seedlings were planted around a recently felled pine stump and receive well water periodically from our front yard rainbird sprinkler.  Everyone cross your fingers on these plants survival and maturing.  I am now thinking that direct outdoor sowing may have its advantages for difficult species,

       

      Mike Creel, SC USDA Zone 8a
      Lexington, South Carolina

       


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