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Re: sources of salvagable parts

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  • jkbrigman
    First: Steve is right, if you want to build a good, predictably-performing wind generator, you ve gotta go scratch. Plenty of parts that can be pulled from the
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 31, 2011
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      First: Steve is right, if you want to build a good, predictably-performing wind generator, you've gotta go scratch. Plenty of parts that can be pulled from the junkyard to build the wind generator, but you wind your own coils and set new magnets - the junkyard parts are used for spindles, bearings and steel disks required to make the unit.

      Second: I greatly applaud your desire to pull from a resource that might be out there getting ready to be thrown away. There IS an example of someone taking a Ficher-Paykel washing machine and re-using both the motor and the electronics to get a really good, running start on a wind generator:

      http://hackedgadgets.com/2008/12/05/fisher-paykel-smart-drive-washing-machine-wind-generator/

      It's a beautiful motor, really. But one worries about it's durability - most washing machines that go bad don't fail due to the motor.

      Third: I can't recommend enough following the "conventional wisdom" and doing an axial flux HAWT according to the wisdom represented here. It's good stuff, and you can get help here. If you go the way of converting an existing motor or generator, you are really on your own as far as implementation, measurement and results go.

      Good luck Myron!

      JKB
      --- In axialflux@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Spence" <sspence@...> wrote:
      >
      > You won't find many usable parts in existing motors. the wires in old motors are too small in diameter, and there's no magnets, or the wrong kind of magnets.
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In axialflux@yahoogroups.com, "myrontokachi" <myrontokachi@> wrote:
      > >
      > > I'm in the process of starting to work on a wind power system and am interested in using salvaged parts for the motors and control systems. I've done some searching around the net, but I couldn't find any site that listed what kinds of machines use DC motors. There are obviously the automotive applications but most of those are 12v systems but I want to use higher voltage. The larger trucks use 24v but those parts are fairly hard to get your hands on as a cheap salvage opportunity.
      > >
      > > So I was wondering if I could get some ideas of the kinds of machines to look for as a source of salvagable motors and parts.
      > >
      > > Thanks,
      > >
      > > Myron Wright
      > > Hokkaido, Japan
      > >
      >
    • sal.cerda
      Myron, I bought a used floor scrubber/buffer to use for my floor. It developed some problems so I had to take it apart. I found that the motor is a 390 VDC
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 1, 2011
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        Myron,
        I bought a used floor scrubber/buffer to use for my floor. It developed some problems so I had to take it apart. I found that the motor is a 390 VDC motor with a 35 amp bridge rectifier (which was faulty). I replaced it for about $7. This is a heavy motor and if you can find one, it might be useful.
        Sal

        --- In axialflux@yahoogroups.com, "myrontokachi" <myrontokachi@...> wrote:
        >
        > I'm in the process of starting to work on a wind power system and am interested in using salvaged parts for the motors and control systems. I've done some searching around the net, but I couldn't find any site that listed what kinds of machines use DC motors. There are obviously the automotive applications but most of those are 12v systems but I want to use higher voltage. The larger trucks use 24v but those parts are fairly hard to get your hands on as a cheap salvage opportunity.
        >
        > So I was wondering if I could get some ideas of the kinds of machines to look for as a source of salvagable motors and parts.
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Myron Wright
        > Hokkaido, Japan
        >
      • myrontokachi
        I appreciate all the input regarding my idea about salvaging motors and/or parts. If I understand correctly, you re saying that motors that use magnets don t
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 2, 2011
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          I appreciate all the input regarding my idea about salvaging motors and/or parts. If I understand correctly, you're saying that motors that use magnets don't contain the right kind of magnets for use in power generation. It seems that there are lots of people out there who are using ceiling fan motors for power generation. Are they just replacing all the magnets and coils and only utilizing the mechanical components? What would be the point of using those motors in the first place?

          I'm just getting started on this and at this point, I see it more as an experiment and learning situation than practical, real life implementation. I don't really care if the result has a short life - at this point. I'm just looking for a way to do these experiments as cheaply as possible before I spend the money on commercially available parts because I'm sure they will cost an arm and a leg here in Japan.

          Also, houses in Japan are really tightly packed so I'd need a fairly tall mast to mount a horizontal system. But then I don't have enough space to place the mast stabilizer lines to keep it from tipping over. Given that the tower isn't practical, I was thinking that a vertical axis system would be better. What are the advantages of using horizontal vs. vertical axis methods?

          I was also thinking that I could use the metal from the sides of old appliances as a source of material for making blades. Any comments on this idea?

          Again, thanks for all the input.

          Myron Wright
          Hokkaido, Japan
        • Steve Spence
          On Wed, 02 Feb 2011 22:21:49 -0500, myrontokachi ... -- Steve Spence Renewable energy and self sufficiency http://www.green-trust.org
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 3, 2011
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            On Wed, 02 Feb 2011 22:21:49 -0500, myrontokachi <myrontokachi@...>
            wrote:

            > I appreciate all the input regarding my idea about salvaging motors
            > and/or parts. If I understand correctly, you're saying that motors that
            > use magnets don't contain the right kind of magnets for use in power
            > generation. It seems that there are lots of people out there who are
            > using ceiling fan motors for power generation. Are they just replacing
            > all the magnets and coils and only utilizing the mechanical components?
            > What would be the point of using those motors in the first place?
            >
            > I'm just getting started on this and at this point, I see it more as an
            > experiment and learning situation than practical, real life
            > implementation. I don't really care if the result has a short life - at
            > this point. I'm just looking for a way to do these experiments as
            > cheaply as possible before I spend the money on commercially available
            > parts because I'm sure they will cost an arm and a leg here in Japan.
            >
            > Also, houses in Japan are really tightly packed so I'd need a fairly
            > tall mast to mount a horizontal system. But then I don't have enough
            > space to place the mast stabilizer lines to keep it from tipping over.
            > Given that the tower isn't practical, I was thinking that a vertical
            > axis system would be better. What are the advantages of using
            > horizontal vs. vertical axis methods?
            >
            > I was also thinking that I could use the metal from the sides of old
            > appliances as a source of material for making blades. Any comments on
            > this idea?
            >
            > Again, thanks for all the input.
            >
            > Myron Wright
            > Hokkaido, Japan
            >


            --

            Steve Spence
            Renewable energy and self sufficiency
            http://www.green-trust.org
            http://arduinotronics.blogspot.com
          • Steve Spence
            I m sating you won t usually find appropriate materials to build an axial flux. Most ceiling fans I have seen don t have magnets, they only have coils. On Wed,
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 3, 2011
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              I'm sating you won't usually find appropriate materials to build an axial
              flux. Most ceiling fans I have seen don't have magnets, they only have
              coils.

              On Wed, 02 Feb 2011 22:21:49 -0500, myrontokachi <myrontokachi@...>
              wrote:

              > I appreciate all the input regarding my idea about salvaging motors
              > and/or parts. If I understand correctly, you're saying that motors that
              > use magnets don't contain the right kind of magnets for use in power
              > generation. It seems that there are lots of people out there who are
              > using ceiling fan motors for power generation. Are they just replacing
              > all the magnets and coils and only utilizing the mechanical components?
              > What would be the point of using those motors in the first place?
              >
              > I'm just getting started on this and at this point, I see it more as an
              > experiment and learning situation than practical, real life
              > implementation. I don't really care if the result has a short life - at
              > this point. I'm just looking for a way to do these experiments as
              > cheaply as possible before I spend the money on commercially available
              > parts because I'm sure they will cost an arm and a leg here in Japan.
              >
              > Also, houses in Japan are really tightly packed so I'd need a fairly
              > tall mast to mount a horizontal system. But then I don't have enough
              > space to place the mast stabilizer lines to keep it from tipping over.
              > Given that the tower isn't practical, I was thinking that a vertical
              > axis system would be better. What are the advantages of using
              > horizontal vs. vertical axis methods?
              >
              > I was also thinking that I could use the metal from the sides of old
              > appliances as a source of material for making blades. Any comments on
              > this idea?
              >
              > Again, thanks for all the input.
              >
              > Myron Wright
              > Hokkaido, Japan
              >


              --

              Steve Spence
              Renewable energy and self sufficiency
              http://www.green-trust.org
              http://arduinotronics.blogspot.com
            • kevin.mahaney
              It has always been my understanding that nearly any motor will put out electricty BUT most motors or alternators have to be spun so fast that most are
              Message 6 of 14 , Feb 3, 2011
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                It has always been my understanding that nearly any motor will put out electricty BUT most motors or alternators have to be spun so fast that most are impractial.I have been looking at low rpm stepper motors that show promise.I also seen motors from newer "smart drive" washing machines .They are basiclly a big stepper motor.Another good source would be drive motors off of old robots or old cnc machining equipment.There are a lot different sizes.Just sayin?

                --- In axialflux@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Spence" <sspence@...> wrote:
                >
                > I'm sating you won't usually find appropriate materials to build an axial
                > flux. Most ceiling fans I have seen don't have magnets, they only have
                > coils.
                >
                > On Wed, 02 Feb 2011 22:21:49 -0500, myrontokachi <myrontokachi@...>
                > wrote:
                >
                > > I appreciate all the input regarding my idea about salvaging motors
                > > and/or parts. If I understand correctly, you're saying that motors that
                > > use magnets don't contain the right kind of magnets for use in power
                > > generation. It seems that there are lots of people out there who are
                > > using ceiling fan motors for power generation. Are they just replacing
                > > all the magnets and coils and only utilizing the mechanical components?
                > > What would be the point of using those motors in the first place?
                > >
                > > I'm just getting started on this and at this point, I see it more as an
                > > experiment and learning situation than practical, real life
                > > implementation. I don't really care if the result has a short life - at
                > > this point. I'm just looking for a way to do these experiments as
                > > cheaply as possible before I spend the money on commercially available
                > > parts because I'm sure they will cost an arm and a leg here in Japan.
                > >
                > > Also, houses in Japan are really tightly packed so I'd need a fairly
                > > tall mast to mount a horizontal system. But then I don't have enough
                > > space to place the mast stabilizer lines to keep it from tipping over.
                > > Given that the tower isn't practical, I was thinking that a vertical
                > > axis system would be better. What are the advantages of using
                > > horizontal vs. vertical axis methods?
                > >
                > > I was also thinking that I could use the metal from the sides of old
                > > appliances as a source of material for making blades. Any comments on
                > > this idea?
                > >
                > > Again, thanks for all the input.
                > >
                > > Myron Wright
                > > Hokkaido, Japan
                > >
                >
                >
                > --
                >
                > Steve Spence
                > Renewable energy and self sufficiency
                > http://www.green-trust.org
                > http://arduinotronics.blogspot.com
                >
              • James Brigman
                In the US, all the ceiling fans I ve ever installed or fixed use self-excited coils connected to the AC mains to provide the magnetic field. There s no static
                Message 7 of 14 , Feb 4, 2011
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                  In the US, all the ceiling fans I've ever installed or fixed use self-excited coils connected to the AC mains to provide the magnetic field. There's no static source of magnetic field lines and no path for conduction of power out of the machine, only the  direct connection for feeding the field coils to generate the rotating magnetic field (which then drives the rotor).

                  The axial-flux wind generators use rare earth magnets to establish field lines, so you don't have to supply power to the machine to get it to work. The Hugh Piggot design has large numbers of strong, beautiful, fat rare earth magnets having their field lines cut by stationary, tightly wound coils. Delicious!

                  In addition to the Fisher-Paykel products, some experimenters are using auto alternators (again, requiring a field energizing voltage source) and DC treadmill motors to make their wind generators. They get a respectable amount of power for not having to actually manufacture the generator. Here's an example where the gentleman uses surplus computer tape drive motors:

                  http://www.instructables.com/id/How-I-built-an-electricity-producing-wind-turbine/

                  Our wind generators are "Horizontal Axis Wind Turbines", or HAWT. We use this design because it is very low drag compared to a VAWT, or "Vertical Access Wind Turbine".

                  Rock on Myron! Let us all know what you decide to do.

                  JKB

                  --- On Wed, 2/2/11, myrontokachi <myrontokachi@...> wrote:

                  From: myrontokachi <myrontokachi@...>
                  Subject: [axialflux] Re: sources of salvagable parts
                  To: axialflux@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Wednesday, February 2, 2011, 10:21 PM

                   

                  I appreciate all the input regarding my idea about salvaging motors and/or parts. If I understand correctly, you're saying that motors that use magnets don't contain the right kind of magnets for use in power generation. It seems that there are lots of people out there who are using ceiling fan motors for power generation. Are they just replacing all the magnets and coils and only utilizing the mechanical components? What would be the point of using those motors in the first place?

                  I'm just getting started on this and at this point, I see it more as an experiment and learning situation than practical, real life implementation. I don't really care if the result has a short life - at this point. I'm just looking for a way to do these experiments as cheaply as possible before I spend the money on commercially available parts because I'm sure they will cost an arm and a leg here in Japan.

                  Also, houses in Japan are really tightly packed so I'd need a fairly tall mast to mount a horizontal system. But then I don't have enough space to place the mast stabilizer lines to keep it from tipping over. Given that the tower isn't practical, I was thinking that a vertical axis system would be better. What are the advantages of using horizontal vs. vertical axis methods?

                  I was also thinking that I could use the metal from the sides of old appliances as a source of material for making blades. Any comments on this idea?

                  Again, thanks for all the input.

                  Myron Wright
                  Hokkaido, Japan


                • Stuart Perkins
                  The key is that Permanent Magnet (PM) motors may be usable. Those with coils both as field and armature magnets can be used to generate power as well, but
                  Message 8 of 14 , Feb 4, 2011
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                    The key is that Permanent Magnet (PM) motors "may" be usable. Those
                    with coils both as field and armature magnets "can" be used to generate
                    power as well, but since there are no PM's in them, only
                    electromagnetic coils, they use electricity AND physical energy to
                    create electricity. Efficiency is NEVER as high as what is attained
                    with PM generator/motor. Non PM generators/motors are unlikely to be a
                    good choice.

                    On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 02:57:17 -0000
                    "kevin.mahaney" <kevin.mahaney@...> wrote:

                    > It has always been my understanding that nearly any motor will put
                    > out electricty BUT most motors or alternators have to be spun so fast
                    > that most are impractial.I have been looking at low rpm stepper
                    > motors that show promise.I also seen motors from newer "smart drive"
                    > washing machines .They are basiclly a big stepper motor.Another good
                    > source would be drive motors off of old robots or old cnc machining
                    > equipment.There are a lot different sizes.Just sayin?
                    >
                    > --- In axialflux@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Spence" <sspence@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I'm sating you won't usually find appropriate materials to build an
                    > > axial flux. Most ceiling fans I have seen don't have magnets, they
                    > > only have coils.
                    > >
                    > > On Wed, 02 Feb 2011 22:21:49 -0500, myrontokachi
                    > > <myrontokachi@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > I appreciate all the input regarding my idea about salvaging
                    > > > motors and/or parts. If I understand correctly, you're saying
                    > > > that motors that use magnets don't contain the right kind of
                    > > > magnets for use in power generation. It seems that there are
                    > > > lots of people out there who are using ceiling fan motors for
                    > > > power generation. Are they just replacing all the magnets and
                    > > > coils and only utilizing the mechanical components? What would be
                    > > > the point of using those motors in the first place?
                    > > >
                    > > > I'm just getting started on this and at this point, I see it more
                    > > > as an experiment and learning situation than practical, real
                    > > > life implementation. I don't really care if the result has a
                    > > > short life - at this point. I'm just looking for a way to do
                    > > > these experiments as cheaply as possible before I spend the money
                    > > > on commercially available parts because I'm sure they will cost
                    > > > an arm and a leg here in Japan.
                    > > >
                    > > > Also, houses in Japan are really tightly packed so I'd need a
                    > > > fairly tall mast to mount a horizontal system. But then I don't
                    > > > have enough space to place the mast stabilizer lines to keep it
                    > > > from tipping over. Given that the tower isn't practical, I was
                    > > > thinking that a vertical axis system would be better. What are
                    > > > the advantages of using horizontal vs. vertical axis methods?
                    > > >
                    > > > I was also thinking that I could use the metal from the sides of
                    > > > old appliances as a source of material for making blades. Any
                    > > > comments on this idea?
                    > > >
                    > > > Again, thanks for all the input.
                    > > >
                    > > > Myron Wright
                    > > > Hokkaido, Japan
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --
                    > >
                    > > Steve Spence
                    > > Renewable energy and self sufficiency
                    > > http://www.green-trust.org
                    > > http://arduinotronics.blogspot.com
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                  • Dan Fink
                    Hello Myron; I would avoid metal, and especially sheet metal, for any sort of wind turbine blades. It fatigues very fast, and will fail rapidly, sending
                    Message 9 of 14 , Feb 4, 2011
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                      Hello Myron;

                      I would avoid metal, and especially sheet metal, for any sort of wind
                      turbine blades. It fatigues very fast, and will fail rapidly, sending
                      dangerous shrapnel flying. We've even seen sheet metal fatigue crack
                      and fail on wind turbine tail vanes!

                      The vertical vs. horizontal issue has been covered here extensively,
                      but in short -- vertical turbines need to be over twice as large as
                      horizontal ones to make the same amount of energy, they experience a
                      fatigue cycle with every rotation which is brutal on components, and
                      they are very difficult to control in high winds. Verticals also need
                      just as tall a tower as horizontals.

                      DAN FINK
                      co-author, Homebrew Wind Power
                      Buckville Energy Consulting
                      NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ accredited Continuing Education Providers


                      I appreciate all the input regarding my idea about salvaging motors
                      and/or parts. If I understand correctly, you're saying that motors
                      that use magnets don't contain the right kind of magnets for use in
                      power generation. It seems that there are lots of people out there who
                      are using ceiling fan motors for power generation. Are they just
                      replacing all the magnets and coils and only utilizing the mechanical
                      components? What would be the point of using those motors in the first
                      place?

                      I'm just getting started on this and at this point, I see it more as
                      an experiment and learning situation than practical, real life
                      implementation. I don't really care if the result has a short life -
                      at this point. I'm just looking for a way to do these experiments as
                      cheaply as possible before I spend the money on commercially available
                      parts because I'm sure they will cost an arm and a leg here in Japan.

                      Also, houses in Japan are really tightly packed so I'd need a fairly
                      tall mast to mount a horizontal system. But then I don't have enough
                      space to place the mast stabilizer lines to keep it from tipping over.
                      Given that the tower isn't practical, I was thinking that a vertical
                      axis system would be better. What are the advantages of using
                      horizontal vs. vertical axis methods?

                      I was also thinking that I could use the metal from the sides of old
                      appliances as a source of material for making blades. Any comments on
                      this idea?

                      Again, thanks for all the input.

                      Myron Wright
                      Hokkaido, Japan
                    • Steve Spence
                      These may make electricity (many will not), but they are not axial flux alternators. On Thu, 03 Feb 2011 21:57:17 -0500, kevin.mahaney ... -- Steve Spence
                      Message 10 of 14 , Feb 4, 2011
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                        These may make electricity (many will not), but they are not axial flux
                        alternators.


                        On Thu, 03 Feb 2011 21:57:17 -0500, kevin.mahaney
                        <kevin.mahaney@...> wrote:

                        > It has always been my understanding that nearly any motor will put out
                        > electricty BUT most motors or alternators have to be spun so fast that
                        > most are impractial.I have been looking at low rpm stepper motors that
                        > show promise.I also seen motors from newer "smart drive" washing
                        > machines .They are basiclly a big stepper motor.Another good source
                        > would be drive motors off of old robots or old cnc machining
                        > equipment.There are a lot different sizes.Just sayin?
                        >
                        > --- In axialflux@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Spence" <sspence@...> wrote:
                        >>
                        >> I'm sating you won't usually find appropriate materials to build an
                        >> axial
                        >> flux. Most ceiling fans I have seen don't have magnets, they only have
                        >> coils.

                        --

                        Steve Spence
                        Renewable energy and self sufficiency
                        http://www.green-trust.org
                        http://arduinotronics.blogspot.com
                      • myrontokachi
                        Steve, You were right. He wasn t using the ceiling fan motors, as is. I finally got around to watching the series of videos that I found on youtube. The
                        Message 11 of 14 , Feb 5, 2011
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                          Steve,

                          You were right. He wasn't using the ceiling fan motors, as is. I finally got around to watching the series of videos that I found on youtube. The person added magnets to the inside of the motor casing and utilized the existing coils. You can see the configuration he was using at this link:

                          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFYpV1w6H9Q&feature=channel

                          It seems like a good beginners project for someone to use to get a taste. I will probably do something like this as practice.

                          The same youtube user (muddymuddymuddman) is starting a more ambitious project using scrap brake discs to make a dual rotor alternator that seems more like the kind of project that I am ultimately interested in doing. The magnets are much larger than in the ceiling fan model - 1 x 2 x 1/5 inch. Just looking at this intro video, I kind of get the idea of where he is ultimately going. Here's a link to the first introductory video:

                          http://www.youtube.com/user/muddymuddymuddmann#p/u/4/-pVYworg8t4

                          Here's the video description:

                          "THIS VIDEO IS AN INTRODUCTION TO THE 10 FOOT DUAL PERMANENT MAGNET ROTOR AXIAL FLUX WIND TURBINE GENERATOR CONSTRUCTION. JUST AN OVER VIEW AND SOME SAFETY TIPS ON MAGNET USE.
                          IN THIS SERIES I WILL TRY TO EXPLAIN EVERY DETAIL THAT I CAN TO ENSURE THAT THERE ARE NO MISCONCEPTIONS AT ALL ABOUT HOW TO, AND HOW IT WORKS. PLUS WE WILL DESIGN THIS UNIT ON VIDEO TO GET A GRASP OF WHAT IS INVOLVED"

                          I thought that his discussion of magnet safety was very useful. I only wish that he would have reinforced his message by actually wearing leather gloves.

                          I may have even already located a source of scrap wheel assemblies including rotors, drive shafts, housings and bearings that can be used to connect to the wind turbine itself. The downside of this project is that it does require access to a metal lathe to machine the rotors - or having it done by a machine shop. I don't think that this will be that much of a limiting factor though.

                          Thanks again to all for your ideas. Keep them coming because I'm all ears.

                          Myron Wright
                          Hokkaido, Japan
                        • myrontokachi
                          I ve recently acquired some magnets that were removed from microwave ovens. They are round with a hole in the center and roughly 2.5 - 3 inches in diameter.
                          Message 12 of 14 , Feb 20, 2011
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                            I've recently acquired some magnets that were removed from microwave ovens. They are round with a hole in the center and roughly 2.5 - 3 inches in diameter. They appear to be ferrite magnets. For their size, they have a fair bit of strength though certainly not on the order of neodymium magnets. I was wondering if it would be worth trying to mock up an alternator using these magnets and if anyone has any experience using them.

                            Myron Wright
                            Hokkaido, Japan
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