## Re: Driven the alternator

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• You would be trying to accelerate the mass of the ... Wouldn t it be better to have it so the alternator didn t start up until just before they hit their
Message 1 of 30 , Sep 8, 2008
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You would be trying to accelerate the mass of the
> magnet discs very quickly and the horses would not understand that they
> would have to start slowly.

Wouldn't it be better to have it so the alternator didn't start up
until just before they hit their average speed?

It may vary a bit from day to day, but in general, it should stay
about the same and be easy to gear specifically for that, no?
• Tom- That would certainly help, but the actual mass of the discs and magnets can t be switched off electrically. You could build a mechanical clutch into the
Message 2 of 30 , Sep 8, 2008
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Tom-

That would certainly help, but the actual mass of the discs and magnets
can't be "switched off" electrically. You could build a mechanical
clutch into the drivetrain just before the alternator, that would allow
the gears to get going before the alternator and if it slipped awhile
(fluid coupling) would also do similar things. Then electrically cut-in
the alternator at speed.

The horse speed will be similar day-to-day. First get a good idea of
their rpm, then decide where you want to spend \$ to get generation. Say
the horses do 6 rpm, the standard axial flux likes 300 rpm, investigate
if you can find a cheap 50:1 increaser gearbox. If it is outrageously
expensive, design an alternator that likes say 100 rpm, spend a little
more money on it but a lot less on a 17:1 gearbox. You could also put a
little increase in a V-belt to the alternator, say 2:1 or so and get
less increase in the gearbox.

Tim Greiner

--- Tom wrote:
>
> You would be trying to accelerate the mass of the
> > magnet discs very quickly and the horses would not understand that
they
> > would have to start slowly.
>
> Wouldn't it be better to have it so the alternator didn't start up
> until just before they hit their average speed?
>
> It may vary a bit from day to day, but in general, it should stay
> about the same and be easy to gear specifically for that, no?
>
• if your windmill axle is on bearings in front of it,they seem like they would hold up. i would try it out on a 3-4 ft rotor awhile. they are the nylon plastic
Message 3 of 30 , Sep 9, 2008
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 if your windmill axle is on bearings in front of it,they seem like they would hold up. i would try it out on a 3-4 ft rotor awhile. they are the nylon plastic type gears. if they get worn out, it wont disintagrate or anything, it will just stop transfering power out. just grab up the next one you see in a trash pile and check it out. they have a decent little 12vdc motor attatched to them,too.if it wears out, theyre usually free, so...

• the rear ends on all American cars are worm gears we call them ring and pinions 2 .75 to 1 and up. this idea is something that ive checked into alot. i can
Message 4 of 30 , Sep 18, 2008
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the rear ends on all American cars are worm gears we call them ring
and pinions 2 .75 to 1 and up.
this idea is something that ive checked into alot.
i can assure you this a work horse. could easily power a house ..
my idea is a donkey small good worker and don't eat and poop near as
what a horse will
this system with a windmill is a starting point for me.
i thought a large wheel 5 feet in diameter with magnets on the outer
edge that would give the donkey about a 15 foot circle to walk around
in a circle. i dont see why i wouldn't work the leaverge on the outer
edge of the pole that turns the drive side could be adjusted
very easy to match the animals ability.
ive seen the amish here pull out a tractor and flat bed trailer that
was stuck in the mud with 3 4 team horse 12 horses .
a donkey could easily make 15 horse power on a set up like im
describing. its not work free either it would cost you care and feed
so the less it takes the better .
i don't think the mechanical side would be hard. a simple two gear
setup would work. a rear end would work. the only thing i haven't
gotten into is how many magnets and what speed range a five foot disk
would need to get usable power. ive got a 4 cylinder engine powered
generator rated at 5 thousand watts set up with 220 coming off it.
dont want the repairs of running it thats why i want the same type
that i will be using on my 80 foot tower.
i know this kinda thing is not what this board is about but the gen
setup is identical and to master the one idea would serve both
projects .the kink is a barn. hay. feed. water. to house the donkey..
i dont think it would take much speed from the donkey at all .
the speed that the disk would be turning at .at the edge of 4 or 5
feet would be high and some where around 10 to 1 gearing of the axil
would work well. how would a person go about figuring out the size
and speed of something as big as this.

--- In axialflux@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Greiner" <casey51234@...> wrote:
>
> JMHO, they would not. You would be trying to accelerate the mass of the
> magnet discs very quickly and the horses would not understand that they
> would have to start slowly. I would guess that the powerwheels gearbox
> would be sized for about a quarter horsepower and you would instantly
> strip a gear if you put on an alternator that was capable of what a
> couple of (animal) horses can provide.
>
> It would probably be good to build the alternator with an absolute
> minimum of cogging, too. Lots of magnets, lots of coils and spacing the
> coils for even generation. Then find a hefty gearbox with a smaller
> ratio than 400:1, and avoid wormgears as they cannot be used for
> increasing speed. A forgiving final drive like V-belts (they can slip
> and recover if overpowered momentarily) and some kind of springy
> connection between the horses and the gearbox input would reduce shock
> loads on the gearbox, extending its life.
>
> Tim Greiner
>
> --- Tom wrote:
> >
> > > the gearboxes inside of the kids powerwheels toys are pretty good.
> > > dismantle one and check them out. you can usually find them as
> > > roadkill as soon as the original batteries or speed controler fries
> > > out. i have never found one with a bad gearbox. im guessing its
> > > 400 to one reduction.
> >
> > Would they have the strength to handle heavy forces though?
> >
>
• I wasn t talkign about switching the mass off... however you mean that... I was under the impression that if you had a switch to break the circuit it would
Message 5 of 30 , Sep 20, 2008
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I wasn't talkign about switching the 'mass' off... however you mean
that... I was under the impression that if you had a switch to break
the circuit it would eliminate the start up issues, and once it was at
speed, flip the switch so the circuit is complete. Thus avoiding the
issues of starting it.

Perhaps I misunderstood... I had thought I read somewhere that if you
shorted the circuit, it would cause it to lock up (allowing to 'brake'
a wind gen), or if you disconnect the circuit, it would just spin
freely (minus friction)...

> That would certainly help, but the actual mass of the discs and
magnets
> can't be "switched off" electrically. You could build a mechanical
> clutch into the drivetrain just before the alternator, that would
allow
> the gears to get going before the alternator and if it slipped
awhile
converter
> (fluid coupling) would also do similar things. Then electrically
cut-in
> the alternator at speed.
>
> The horse speed will be similar day-to-day. First get a good idea of
> their rpm, then decide where you want to spend \$ to get generation.
Say
> the horses do 6 rpm, the standard axial flux likes 300 rpm,
investigate
> if you can find a cheap 50:1 increaser gearbox. If it is
outrageously
> expensive, design an alternator that likes say 100 rpm, spend a
little
> more money on it but a lot less on a 17:1 gearbox. You could also
put a
> little increase in a V-belt to the alternator, say 2:1 or so and get
> less increase in the gearbox.
>
> Tim Greiner
>
> --- Tom wrote:
> >
> > You would be trying to accelerate the mass of the
> > > magnet discs very quickly and the horses would not understand
that
> they
> > > would have to start slowly.
> >
> > Wouldn't it be better to have it so the alternator didn't start up
> > until just before they hit their average speed?
> >
> > It may vary a bit from day to day, but in general, it should stay
> > about the same and be easy to gear specifically for that, no?
> >
>
• Tom- Switching the coils off REDUCES the load on the gear increaser on start-up, but doesn t eliminate it. The flywheel effect of the magnets and discs is
Message 6 of 30 , Sep 21, 2008
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Tom-

Switching the coils off REDUCES the load on the gear increaser on
start-up, but doesn't eliminate it. The flywheel effect of the
magnets and discs is still there, my point was that it might be more
economical to put in a simple clutch than to beef up the gearing to
withstand the shock loading. It could be as easy as an idler wheel on
the V-belt driving the alternator that you could engage after the
animals have started walking. Then do the electrical cut-in of the
coils. The danger in this is the animals could stop/restart on their
own, so things that work automatically would be better, like a fluid
coupling on the mechanical side. And relays switched by limit
switches on the animals' harness on the electrical side.
I don't know about shorting the coils, it seems like they would still
be generating and rapidly heat. I've used one ot two of the three
phases in an induction motor as a brake, but only for a couple of
seconds maximum.

Tim Greiner

--- Tom wrote:
>
> I wasn't talkign about switching the 'mass' off... however you mean
> that... I was under the impression that if you had a switch to
break
> the circuit it would eliminate the start up issues, and once it was
at
> speed, flip the switch so the circuit is complete. Thus avoiding
the
> issues of starting it.
>
> Perhaps I misunderstood... I had thought I read somewhere that if
you
> shorted the circuit, it would cause it to lock up (allowing
to 'brake'
> a wind gen), or if you disconnect the circuit, it would just spin
> freely (minus friction)...
>
>
>
>
> > That would certainly help, but the actual mass of the discs and
> magnets
> > can't be "switched off" electrically. You could build a
mechanical
> > clutch into the drivetrain just before the alternator, that would
> allow
> > the gears to get going before the alternator and if it slipped
> awhile
> converter
> > (fluid coupling) would also do similar things. Then electrically
> cut-in
> > the alternator at speed.
> >
> > The horse speed will be similar day-to-day. First get a good idea
of
> > their rpm, then decide where you want to spend \$ to get
generation.
> Say
> > the horses do 6 rpm, the standard axial flux likes 300 rpm,
> investigate
> > if you can find a cheap 50:1 increaser gearbox. If it is
> outrageously
> > expensive, design an alternator that likes say 100 rpm, spend a
> little
> > more money on it but a lot less on a 17:1 gearbox. You could also
> put a
> > little increase in a V-belt to the alternator, say 2:1 or so and
get
> > less increase in the gearbox.
> >
> > Tim Greiner
> >
> > --- Tom wrote:
> > >
> > > You would be trying to accelerate the mass of the
> > > > magnet discs very quickly and the horses would not understand
> that
> > they
> > > > would have to start slowly.
> > >
> > > Wouldn't it be better to have it so the alternator didn't start
up
> > > until just before they hit their average speed?
> > >
> > > It may vary a bit from day to day, but in general, it should
stay
> > > about the same and be easy to gear specifically for that, no?
> > >
> >
>
• ... Why not get away from the lossy V belts, and use an automotive serpentine belt? OK, use it for prototyping, but for the final version, serpentine has much
Message 7 of 30 , Sep 22, 2008
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--- In axialflux@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Greiner" <casey51234@...> wrote:
> It could be as easy as an idler wheel on
> the V-belt driving the alternator

Why not get away from the lossy V belts, and use an automotive
serpentine belt? OK, use it for prototyping, but for the final
version, serpentine has much less loss than V.
• Mike- Plain V-belts are about 95% efficient when first installed, drops to about 90 when broken in. They are less finicky about alignment. DIYers tend to have
Message 8 of 30 , Sep 23, 2008
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Mike-

Plain V-belts are about 95% efficient when first installed, drops to
about 90 when broken in. They are less finicky about alignment. DIYers
tend to have an easier time finding pulleys and such.

I couldn't find any hard numbers on flat ribbed, but they can't be as
good as synchronous types which are high 90s. So they are probably low
90s if aligned well and tensioned correctly. They are more efficient
than the V.

So the choice is gaining a few percent at the cost of making sure the
alignment is better. I think the V would stand up better to repeated
slippage also.

Guess it's up to the builder to anticipate how good fabrication and
maintenance will be.

Tim Greiner

--- Mike Burgess wrote:
>
> --- Tim Greiner wrote:
> > It could be as easy as an idler wheel on
> > the V-belt driving the alternator
>
> Why not get away from the lossy V belts, and use an automotive
> serpentine belt? OK, use it for prototyping, but for the final
> version, serpentine has much less loss than V.
>
• ... Also, multi-rib or poly-V belts are less prone to slippage. -- David G. LeVine Nashua, NH 03060
Message 9 of 30 , Sep 23, 2008
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Tim Greiner wrote:
> Mike-
>
> Plain V-belts are about 95% efficient when first installed, drops to
> about 90 when broken in. They are less finicky about alignment. DIYers
> tend to have an easier time finding pulleys and such.
>
> I couldn't find any hard numbers on flat ribbed, but they can't be as
> good as synchronous types which are high 90s. So they are probably low
> 90s if aligned well and tensioned correctly. They are more efficient
> than the V.
>
> So the choice is gaining a few percent at the cost of making sure the
> alignment is better. I think the V would stand up better to repeated
> slippage also.
>
> Guess it's up to the builder to anticipate how good fabrication and
> maintenance will be.
>
> Tim Greiner
Also, multi-rib or poly-V belts are less prone to slippage.

--
David G. LeVine
Nashua, NH 03060
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