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Re: Driven the alternator

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  • Tom
    You would be trying to accelerate the mass of the ... Wouldn t it be better to have it so the alternator didn t start up until just before they hit their
    Message 1 of 30 , Sep 8, 2008
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      You would be trying to accelerate the mass of the
      > magnet discs very quickly and the horses would not understand that they
      > would have to start slowly.

      Wouldn't it be better to have it so the alternator didn't start up
      until just before they hit their average speed?

      It may vary a bit from day to day, but in general, it should stay
      about the same and be easy to gear specifically for that, no?
    • Tim Greiner
      Tom- That would certainly help, but the actual mass of the discs and magnets can t be switched off electrically. You could build a mechanical clutch into the
      Message 2 of 30 , Sep 8, 2008
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        Tom-

        That would certainly help, but the actual mass of the discs and magnets
        can't be "switched off" electrically. You could build a mechanical
        clutch into the drivetrain just before the alternator, that would allow
        the gears to get going before the alternator and if it slipped awhile
        would reduce shock loading. An automatic tranny type torque converter
        (fluid coupling) would also do similar things. Then electrically cut-in
        the alternator at speed.

        The horse speed will be similar day-to-day. First get a good idea of
        their rpm, then decide where you want to spend $ to get generation. Say
        the horses do 6 rpm, the standard axial flux likes 300 rpm, investigate
        if you can find a cheap 50:1 increaser gearbox. If it is outrageously
        expensive, design an alternator that likes say 100 rpm, spend a little
        more money on it but a lot less on a 17:1 gearbox. You could also put a
        little increase in a V-belt to the alternator, say 2:1 or so and get
        less increase in the gearbox.

        Tim Greiner

        --- Tom wrote:
        >
        > You would be trying to accelerate the mass of the
        > > magnet discs very quickly and the horses would not understand that
        they
        > > would have to start slowly.
        >
        > Wouldn't it be better to have it so the alternator didn't start up
        > until just before they hit their average speed?
        >
        > It may vary a bit from day to day, but in general, it should stay
        > about the same and be easy to gear specifically for that, no?
        >
      • Charles Malone
        if your windmill axle is on bearings in front of it,they seem like they would hold up. i would try it out on a 3-4 ft rotor awhile. they are the nylon plastic
        Message 3 of 30 , Sep 9, 2008
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          if your windmill axle is on bearings in front of it,they seem like they would hold up. i would try it out on a 3-4 ft rotor awhile. they are the nylon plastic type gears. if they get worn out, it wont disintagrate or anything, it will just stop transfering power out. just grab up the next one you see in a trash pile and check it out. they have a decent little 12vdc motor attatched to them,too.if it wears out, theyre usually free, so...

        • tracy
          the rear ends on all American cars are worm gears we call them ring and pinions 2 .75 to 1 and up. this idea is something that ive checked into alot. i can
          Message 4 of 30 , Sep 18, 2008
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            the rear ends on all American cars are worm gears we call them ring
            and pinions 2 .75 to 1 and up.
            this idea is something that ive checked into alot.
            i can assure you this a work horse. could easily power a house ..
            my idea is a donkey small good worker and don't eat and poop near as
            what a horse will
            this system with a windmill is a starting point for me.
            i thought a large wheel 5 feet in diameter with magnets on the outer
            edge that would give the donkey about a 15 foot circle to walk around
            in a circle. i dont see why i wouldn't work the leaverge on the outer
            edge of the pole that turns the drive side could be adjusted
            very easy to match the animals ability.
            ive seen the amish here pull out a tractor and flat bed trailer that
            was stuck in the mud with 3 4 team horse 12 horses .
            a donkey could easily make 15 horse power on a set up like im
            describing. its not work free either it would cost you care and feed
            so the less it takes the better .
            i don't think the mechanical side would be hard. a simple two gear
            setup would work. a rear end would work. the only thing i haven't
            gotten into is how many magnets and what speed range a five foot disk
            would need to get usable power. ive got a 4 cylinder engine powered
            generator rated at 5 thousand watts set up with 220 coming off it.
            dont want the repairs of running it thats why i want the same type
            that i will be using on my 80 foot tower.
            i know this kinda thing is not what this board is about but the gen
            setup is identical and to master the one idea would serve both
            projects .the kink is a barn. hay. feed. water. to house the donkey..
            i dont think it would take much speed from the donkey at all .
            the speed that the disk would be turning at .at the edge of 4 or 5
            feet would be high and some where around 10 to 1 gearing of the axil
            would work well. how would a person go about figuring out the size
            and speed of something as big as this.





            --- In axialflux@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Greiner" <casey51234@...> wrote:
            >
            > JMHO, they would not. You would be trying to accelerate the mass of the
            > magnet discs very quickly and the horses would not understand that they
            > would have to start slowly. I would guess that the powerwheels gearbox
            > would be sized for about a quarter horsepower and you would instantly
            > strip a gear if you put on an alternator that was capable of what a
            > couple of (animal) horses can provide.
            >
            > It would probably be good to build the alternator with an absolute
            > minimum of cogging, too. Lots of magnets, lots of coils and spacing the
            > coils for even generation. Then find a hefty gearbox with a smaller
            > ratio than 400:1, and avoid wormgears as they cannot be used for
            > increasing speed. A forgiving final drive like V-belts (they can slip
            > and recover if overpowered momentarily) and some kind of springy
            > connection between the horses and the gearbox input would reduce shock
            > loads on the gearbox, extending its life.
            >
            > Tim Greiner
            >
            > --- Tom wrote:
            > >
            > > > the gearboxes inside of the kids powerwheels toys are pretty good.
            > > > dismantle one and check them out. you can usually find them as
            > > > roadkill as soon as the original batteries or speed controler fries
            > > > out. i have never found one with a bad gearbox. im guessing its
            > about
            > > > 400 to one reduction.
            > >
            > > Would they have the strength to handle heavy forces though?
            > >
            >
          • Tom
            I wasn t talkign about switching the mass off... however you mean that... I was under the impression that if you had a switch to break the circuit it would
            Message 5 of 30 , Sep 20, 2008
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              I wasn't talkign about switching the 'mass' off... however you mean
              that... I was under the impression that if you had a switch to break
              the circuit it would eliminate the start up issues, and once it was at
              speed, flip the switch so the circuit is complete. Thus avoiding the
              issues of starting it.

              Perhaps I misunderstood... I had thought I read somewhere that if you
              shorted the circuit, it would cause it to lock up (allowing to 'brake'
              a wind gen), or if you disconnect the circuit, it would just spin
              freely (minus friction)...




              > That would certainly help, but the actual mass of the discs and
              magnets
              > can't be "switched off" electrically. You could build a mechanical
              > clutch into the drivetrain just before the alternator, that would
              allow
              > the gears to get going before the alternator and if it slipped
              awhile
              > would reduce shock loading. An automatic tranny type torque
              converter
              > (fluid coupling) would also do similar things. Then electrically
              cut-in
              > the alternator at speed.
              >
              > The horse speed will be similar day-to-day. First get a good idea of
              > their rpm, then decide where you want to spend $ to get generation.
              Say
              > the horses do 6 rpm, the standard axial flux likes 300 rpm,
              investigate
              > if you can find a cheap 50:1 increaser gearbox. If it is
              outrageously
              > expensive, design an alternator that likes say 100 rpm, spend a
              little
              > more money on it but a lot less on a 17:1 gearbox. You could also
              put a
              > little increase in a V-belt to the alternator, say 2:1 or so and get
              > less increase in the gearbox.
              >
              > Tim Greiner
              >
              > --- Tom wrote:
              > >
              > > You would be trying to accelerate the mass of the
              > > > magnet discs very quickly and the horses would not understand
              that
              > they
              > > > would have to start slowly.
              > >
              > > Wouldn't it be better to have it so the alternator didn't start up
              > > until just before they hit their average speed?
              > >
              > > It may vary a bit from day to day, but in general, it should stay
              > > about the same and be easy to gear specifically for that, no?
              > >
              >
            • Tim Greiner
              Tom- Switching the coils off REDUCES the load on the gear increaser on start-up, but doesn t eliminate it. The flywheel effect of the magnets and discs is
              Message 6 of 30 , Sep 21, 2008
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                Tom-

                Switching the coils off REDUCES the load on the gear increaser on
                start-up, but doesn't eliminate it. The flywheel effect of the
                magnets and discs is still there, my point was that it might be more
                economical to put in a simple clutch than to beef up the gearing to
                withstand the shock loading. It could be as easy as an idler wheel on
                the V-belt driving the alternator that you could engage after the
                animals have started walking. Then do the electrical cut-in of the
                coils. The danger in this is the animals could stop/restart on their
                own, so things that work automatically would be better, like a fluid
                coupling on the mechanical side. And relays switched by limit
                switches on the animals' harness on the electrical side.
                I don't know about shorting the coils, it seems like they would still
                be generating and rapidly heat. I've used one ot two of the three
                phases in an induction motor as a brake, but only for a couple of
                seconds maximum.

                Tim Greiner

                --- Tom wrote:
                >
                > I wasn't talkign about switching the 'mass' off... however you mean
                > that... I was under the impression that if you had a switch to
                break
                > the circuit it would eliminate the start up issues, and once it was
                at
                > speed, flip the switch so the circuit is complete. Thus avoiding
                the
                > issues of starting it.
                >
                > Perhaps I misunderstood... I had thought I read somewhere that if
                you
                > shorted the circuit, it would cause it to lock up (allowing
                to 'brake'
                > a wind gen), or if you disconnect the circuit, it would just spin
                > freely (minus friction)...
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > > That would certainly help, but the actual mass of the discs and
                > magnets
                > > can't be "switched off" electrically. You could build a
                mechanical
                > > clutch into the drivetrain just before the alternator, that would
                > allow
                > > the gears to get going before the alternator and if it slipped
                > awhile
                > > would reduce shock loading. An automatic tranny type torque
                > converter
                > > (fluid coupling) would also do similar things. Then electrically
                > cut-in
                > > the alternator at speed.
                > >
                > > The horse speed will be similar day-to-day. First get a good idea
                of
                > > their rpm, then decide where you want to spend $ to get
                generation.
                > Say
                > > the horses do 6 rpm, the standard axial flux likes 300 rpm,
                > investigate
                > > if you can find a cheap 50:1 increaser gearbox. If it is
                > outrageously
                > > expensive, design an alternator that likes say 100 rpm, spend a
                > little
                > > more money on it but a lot less on a 17:1 gearbox. You could also
                > put a
                > > little increase in a V-belt to the alternator, say 2:1 or so and
                get
                > > less increase in the gearbox.
                > >
                > > Tim Greiner
                > >
                > > --- Tom wrote:
                > > >
                > > > You would be trying to accelerate the mass of the
                > > > > magnet discs very quickly and the horses would not understand
                > that
                > > they
                > > > > would have to start slowly.
                > > >
                > > > Wouldn't it be better to have it so the alternator didn't start
                up
                > > > until just before they hit their average speed?
                > > >
                > > > It may vary a bit from day to day, but in general, it should
                stay
                > > > about the same and be easy to gear specifically for that, no?
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Mike Burgess
                ... Why not get away from the lossy V belts, and use an automotive serpentine belt? OK, use it for prototyping, but for the final version, serpentine has much
                Message 7 of 30 , Sep 22, 2008
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                  --- In axialflux@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Greiner" <casey51234@...> wrote:
                  > It could be as easy as an idler wheel on
                  > the V-belt driving the alternator

                  Why not get away from the lossy V belts, and use an automotive
                  serpentine belt? OK, use it for prototyping, but for the final
                  version, serpentine has much less loss than V.
                • Tim Greiner
                  Mike- Plain V-belts are about 95% efficient when first installed, drops to about 90 when broken in. They are less finicky about alignment. DIYers tend to have
                  Message 8 of 30 , Sep 23, 2008
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                    Mike-

                    Plain V-belts are about 95% efficient when first installed, drops to
                    about 90 when broken in. They are less finicky about alignment. DIYers
                    tend to have an easier time finding pulleys and such.

                    I couldn't find any hard numbers on flat ribbed, but they can't be as
                    good as synchronous types which are high 90s. So they are probably low
                    90s if aligned well and tensioned correctly. They are more efficient
                    than the V.

                    So the choice is gaining a few percent at the cost of making sure the
                    alignment is better. I think the V would stand up better to repeated
                    slippage also.

                    Guess it's up to the builder to anticipate how good fabrication and
                    maintenance will be.

                    Tim Greiner

                    --- Mike Burgess wrote:
                    >
                    > --- Tim Greiner wrote:
                    > > It could be as easy as an idler wheel on
                    > > the V-belt driving the alternator
                    >
                    > Why not get away from the lossy V belts, and use an automotive
                    > serpentine belt? OK, use it for prototyping, but for the final
                    > version, serpentine has much less loss than V.
                    >
                  • David G. LeVine
                    ... Also, multi-rib or poly-V belts are less prone to slippage. -- David G. LeVine Nashua, NH 03060
                    Message 9 of 30 , Sep 23, 2008
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                      Tim Greiner wrote:
                      > Mike-
                      >
                      > Plain V-belts are about 95% efficient when first installed, drops to
                      > about 90 when broken in. They are less finicky about alignment. DIYers
                      > tend to have an easier time finding pulleys and such.
                      >
                      > I couldn't find any hard numbers on flat ribbed, but they can't be as
                      > good as synchronous types which are high 90s. So they are probably low
                      > 90s if aligned well and tensioned correctly. They are more efficient
                      > than the V.
                      >
                      > So the choice is gaining a few percent at the cost of making sure the
                      > alignment is better. I think the V would stand up better to repeated
                      > slippage also.
                      >
                      > Guess it's up to the builder to anticipate how good fabrication and
                      > maintenance will be.
                      >
                      > Tim Greiner
                      Also, multi-rib or poly-V belts are less prone to slippage.

                      --
                      David G. LeVine
                      Nashua, NH 03060
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