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Re: Relationship parameters

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  • Lawrence Rayburn
    Jason, The number of windings determines the voltage level. The size of the windings determines the ampacity...current. The speed or RPMs determine the
    Message 1 of 24 , Aug 3, 2006
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      Jason,

      The number of windings determines the voltage level. The size of
      the windings determines the ampacity...current. The speed or
      RPMs determine the frequency of the electrical voltage pulse train.

      Hope that helps clarify things for you.

      Regards,

      Lawrence


      --- In axialflux@yahoogroups.com, "Jason MeGahee" <jmegahee@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Hi.
      >
      > I am working on a very different type of wind turbine, i.e. it is
      not
      > a traditional horizontal axis or any version of the typical vertical
      > axis types. I don't want to go into anymore than that until I have
      my
      > prototype built, tested, and verifible results ready.
      >
      > But here is what I am trying to understand. I will be utilizing an
      > axial flux alternator design but my design may experience higher
      rpm's
      > than most people using this design.
      > I would like to understand the relationship between (1) number of
      > windings, (2) wire gauge, and (3) rpm.
      >
      > For instance, let's say first scenario is 50 turns of 14 awg and
      > spinning at 1000 rpm. If the rpm is doubled or tripled, does the
      > voltage increase or the amps? How about if everything is the same
      > except more turns on the windings or less? And what if the wire size
      > is adjusted?
      >
      > Any help with understanding these parameters or how to fine tune
      these
      > parameters after initial testing will be appreciated.
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Jason
      >
    • Kirk McLoren
      And the voltage. The voltage induced per turn is flux - magnetic field strength and rate at which you cut the lines. So speed and magnet strength directly
      Message 2 of 24 , Aug 3, 2006
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        And the voltage.
        The voltage induced per turn is
        flux - magnetic field strength and
        rate at which you cut the lines.
        So speed and magnet strength directly equate to emf produced.
         
        Kirk

        Lawrence Rayburn <lawrencerayburn@...> wrote:
        Jason,

        The number of windings determines the voltage level. The size of
        the windings determines the ampacity...current. The speed or
        RPMs determine the frequency of the electrical voltage pulse train.

        Hope that helps clarify things for you.

        Regards,

        Lawrence


        --- In axialflux@yahoogroups.com, "Jason MeGahee"
        wrote:
        >
        > Hi.
        >
        > I am working on a very different type of wind turbine, i.e. it is
        not
        > a traditional horizontal axis or any version of the typical vertical
        > axis types. I don't want to go into anymore than that until I have
        my
        > prototype built, tested, and verifible results ready.
        >
        > But here is what I am trying to understand. I will be utilizing an
        > axial flux alternator design but my design may experience higher
        rpm's
        > than most people using this design.
        > I would like to understand the relationship between (1) number of
        > windings, (2) wire gauge, and (3) rpm.
        >
        > For instance, let's say first scenario is 50 turns of 14 awg and
        > spinning at 1000 rpm. If the rpm is doubled or tripled, does the
        > voltage increase or the amps? How about if everything is the same
        > except more turns on the windings or less? And what if the wire size
        > is adjusted?
        >
        > Any help with understanding these parameters or how to fine tune
        these
        > parameters after initial testing will be appreciated.
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Jason
        >






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      • Dan Clarke
        Hi, Sorry for leaving the entire thread in this post but for some reason my computer will not let me edit it. I m learning and just want to understand: It s
        Message 3 of 24 , Aug 3, 2006
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          Hi,
           
          Sorry for leaving the entire thread in this post but for some reason my computer will not let me edit it.
           
          I'm learning and just want to understand: It's the number of windings that determine voltage, but rate of cutting magnetic lines and also strength of magnetic feild can affect voltage too?
           
          If I were making a generator, I should plan to experiment as a means of determining a final configuration as opposed to following a formula?
           
          Thanks,
          Dan
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 12:24 PM
          Subject: Re: [axialflux] Re: Relationship parameters

          And the voltage.
          The voltage induced per turn is
          flux - magnetic field strength and
          rate at which you cut the lines.
          So speed and magnet strength directly equate to emf produced.
           
          Kirk

          Lawrence Rayburn <lawrencerayburn@ yahoo.com> wrote:
          Jason,

          The number of windings determines the voltage level. The size of
          the windings determines the ampacity...current. The speed or
          RPMs determine the frequency of the electrical voltage pulse train.

          Hope that helps clarify things for you.

          Regards,

          Lawrence


          --- In axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jason MeGahee"
          wrote:
          >
          > Hi.
          >
          > I am working on a very different type of wind turbine, i.e. it is
          not
          > a traditional horizontal axis or any version of the typical vertical
          > axis types. I don't want to go into anymore than that until I have
          my
          > prototype built, tested, and verifible results ready.
          >
          > But here is what I am trying to understand. I will be utilizing an
          > axial flux alternator design but my design may experience higher
          rpm's
          > than most people using this design.
          > I would like to understand the relationship between (1) number of
          > windings, (2) wire gauge, and (3) rpm.
          >
          > For instance, let's say first scenario is 50 turns of 14 awg and
          > spinning at 1000 rpm. If the rpm is doubled or tripled, does the
          > voltage increase or the amps? How about if everything is the same
          > except more turns on the windings or less? And what if the wire size
          > is adjusted?
          >
          > Any help with understanding these parameters or how to fine tune
          these
          > parameters after initial testing will be appreciated.
          >
          > Thanks,
          > Jason
          >






          Group Email Addresses
          Related Link: http://www.green- trust.org/ 2006/06/axial- flux-permanent- magnet-alternato r.html
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          Subscribe: axialflux-subscribe @yahoogroups. com
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        • Kirk McLoren
          Yes. You get an amount based on field strength and rate and that amount is then multiplied by the number of turns. In the real world the flux will have a bit
          Message 4 of 24 , Aug 3, 2006
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            Yes. You get an amount based on field strength and rate and that amount is then multiplied by the number of turns. In the real world the flux will have a bit of non uniformity but the rpm is the same for all. Increasing speed or increasing field strength increases emf induced in each turn.
             
            Kirk

            Dan Clarke <clarke@...> wrote:
            Hi,
             
            Sorry for leaving the entire thread in this post but for some reason my computer will not let me edit it.
             
            I'm learning and just want to understand: It's the number of windings that determine voltage, but rate of cutting magnetic lines and also strength of magnetic feild can affect voltage too?
             
            If I were making a generator, I should plan to experiment as a means of determining a final configuration as opposed to following a formula?
             
            Thanks,
            Dan
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 12:24 PM
            Subject: Re: [axialflux] Re: Relationship parameters

            And the voltage.
            The voltage induced per turn is
            flux - magnetic field strength and
            rate at which you cut the lines.
            So speed and magnet strength directly equate to emf produced.
             
            Kirk

            Lawrence Rayburn <lawrencerayburn@ yahoo.com> wrote:
            Jason,

            The number of windings determines the voltage level. The size of
            the windings determines the ampacity...current. The speed or
            RPMs determine the frequency of the electrical voltage pulse train.

            Hope that helps clarify things for you.

            Regards,

            Lawrence


            --- In axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jason MeGahee"
            wrote:
            >
            > Hi.
            >
            > I am working on a very different type of wind turbine, i.e. it is
            not
            > a traditional horizontal axis or any version of the typical vertical
            > axis types. I don't want to go into anymore than that until I have
            my
            > prototype built, tested, and verifible results ready.
            >
            > But here is what I am trying to understand. I will be utilizing an
            > axial flux alternator design but my design may experience higher
            rpm's
            > than most people using this design.
            > I would like to understand the relationship between (1) number of
            > windings, (2) wire gauge, and (3) rpm.
            >
            > For instance, let's say first scenario is 50 turns of 14 awg and
            > spinning at 1000 rpm. If the rpm is doubled or tripled, does the
            > voltage increase or the amps? How about if everything is the same
            > except more turns on the windings or less? And what if the wire size
            > is adjusted?
            >
            > Any help with understanding these parameters or how to fine tune
            these
            > parameters after initial testing will be appreciated.
            >
            > Thanks,
            > Jason
            >






            Group Email Addresses
            Related Link: http://www.green- trust.org/ 2006/06/axial- flux-permanent- magnet-alternato r.html
            Post message: axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com
            Subscribe: axialflux-subscribe @yahoogroups. com
            Unsubscribe: axialflux-unsubscri be@yahoogroups. com
            List owner: axialflux-owner@ yahoogroups. com
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            http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/axialflux/

            <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            axialflux-unsubscri be@yahoogroups. com

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          • Kirk McLoren
            http://www.tinaja.com/glib/muse117.pdf A nice resource Kirk ... See the all-new, redesigned Yahoo.com. Check it out.
            Message 5 of 24 , Aug 4, 2006
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              A nice resource
               
              Kirk


              See the all-new, redesigned Yahoo.com. Check it out.

            • Steve Spence
              But not very related to an axial flux alternator. Homopolar generators are a completely different animal. Dc outputs and requiring brushes. Steve Spence
              Message 6 of 24 , Aug 7, 2006
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                But not very related to an axial flux alternator. Homopolar generators are a completely different animal. Dc outputs and requiring brushes.

                 

                Steve Spence

                Director, Green Trust

                http://www.green-trust.org


                From: axialflux@yahoogroups.com [mailto: axialflux@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Kirk McLoren
                Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 9:46 PM
                To: axialflux@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [axialflux] relationship between flux and speed in a generator

                 

                 

                A nice resource

                 

                Kirk

                  

              • Kirk McLoren
                That (homopolar) discussion starts on page 3. Did you skip pages 1 and 2? It was remarked earlier that one of the users here didnt know velocity was important
                Message 7 of 24 , Aug 7, 2006
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                  That (homopolar) discussion starts on page 3. Did you skip pages 1 and 2?
                  It was remarked earlier that one of the users here didnt know velocity was important - thus page 2.
                  Kirk
                  Steve Spence <sspence@...> wrote:
                  But not very related to an axial flux alternator. Homopolar generators are a completely different animal. Dc outputs and requiring brushes.
                   
                  Steve Spence
                  Director, Green Trust
                  http://www.green-trust.org

                  From: axialflux@yahoogroups.com [mailto: axialflux@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Kirk McLoren
                  Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 9:46 PM
                  To: axialflux@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [axialflux] relationship between flux and speed in a generator
                   
                   
                  A nice resource
                   
                  Kirk
                    


                  Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.

                • Steve Spence
                  I didn’t skip it, I just misunderstood the reason for the reference. I find Lancaster to be a crusty old dude. We butt heads quite often. Used to love his
                  Message 8 of 24 , Aug 7, 2006
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                    I didn’t skip it, I just misunderstood the reason for the reference. I find Lancaster to be a crusty old dude. We butt heads quite often. Used to love his electronics articles.

                     

                    Steve Spence

                    Director, Green Trust

                    http://www.green-trust.org


                    From: axialflux@yahoogroups.com [mailto: axialflux@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Kirk McLoren
                    Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 11:59 AM
                    To: axialflux@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [axialflux] relationship between flux and speed in a generator

                     

                    That (homopolar) discussion starts on page 3. Did you skip pages 1 and 2?

                    It was remarked earlier that one of the users here didnt know velocity was important - thus page 2.
                    Kirk
                    Steve Spence <sspence@green- trust.org> wrote:

                    But not very related to an axial flux alternator. Homopolar generators are a completely different animal. Dc outputs and requiring brushes.

                     

                    Steve Spence

                    Director, Green Trust

                    http://www.green- trust.org


                    From: axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Kirk McLoren
                    Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 9:46 PM
                    To: axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com
                    Subject: [axialflux] relationship between flux and speed in a generator

                     

                     

                    A nice resource

                     

                    Kirk

                      

                     

                     


                    Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.

                  • Kirk McLoren
                    Didnt know that. He tends to be technically correct. Pretty good author though I dont see much anymore - but then the younger guys seem more and more to skip
                    Message 9 of 24 , Aug 7, 2006
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                      Didnt know that. He tends to be technically correct.
                      Pretty good author though I dont see much anymore - but then the younger guys seem more and more to skip science class. Most of the publications are no more. 73 is gone and I knew an article was in the pipeline re rhombics at 2 meters. Now I will never get to read it. :(
                      So what are you and Don growling about if I may ask.
                       
                      Kirk

                      Steve Spence <sspence@...> wrote:
                      I didn’t skip it, I just misunderstood the reason for the reference. I find Lancaster to be a crusty old dude. We butt heads quite often. Used to love his electronics articles.
                       
                      Steve Spence
                      Director, Green Trust
                      http://www.green-trust.org

                      From: axialflux@yahoogroups.com [mailto: axialflux@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Kirk McLoren
                      Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 11:59 AM
                      To: axialflux@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [axialflux] relationship between flux and speed in a generator
                       
                      That (homopolar) discussion starts on page 3. Did you skip pages 1 and 2?
                      It was remarked earlier that one of the users here didnt know velocity was important - thus page 2.
                      Kirk
                      Steve Spence <sspence@green- trust.org> wrote:
                      But not very related to an axial flux alternator. Homopolar generators are a completely different animal. Dc outputs and requiring brushes.
                       
                      Steve Spence
                      Director, Green Trust
                      http://www.green- trust.org

                      From: axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Kirk McLoren
                      Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 9:46 PM
                      To: axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com
                      Subject: [axialflux] relationship between flux and speed in a generator
                       
                       
                      A nice resource
                       
                      Kirk
                        
                       
                       

                      Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.


                      How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.
                    • Steve Spence
                      Mostly semantics. He “participates” a lot on Usenet, where someone will ask a question, and he will just post a URL as his “answer”, usually
                      Message 10 of 24 , Aug 7, 2006
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                        Mostly semantics. He “participates” a lot on Usenet, where someone will ask a question, and he will just post a URL as his “answer”, usually http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf, which, although a good page, is unrelated to the requestor’s specific question. He also finds fault from a theory standpoint with our actual performance data on subjects he has never played with. Apparently he thinks since he is genius level on some subjects, it makes him master of all ;-) I still have a lot of respect for him though. He and Nick Pine are diligent about making sure folks get their units correct, and that is important. They just need to learn to not kill the patient while hitting them over the head with factual corrections <grin>.

                         

                         

                        Steve Spence

                        Director, Green Trust

                        http://www.green-trust.org


                        From: axialflux@yahoogroups.com [mailto: axialflux@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Kirk McLoren
                        Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 1:00 PM
                        To: axialflux@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [axialflux] relationship between flux and speed in a generator

                         

                        Didnt know that. He tends to be technically correct.

                        Pretty good author though I dont see much anymore - but then the younger guys seem more and more to skip science class. Most of the publications are no more. 73 is gone and I knew an article was in the pipeline re rhombics at 2 meters. Now I will never get to read it. :(

                        So what are you and Don growling about if I may ask.

                         

                        Kirk

                        Steve Spence <sspence@green- trust.org> wrote:

                        I didn’t skip it, I just misunderstood the reason for the reference. I find Lancaster to be a crusty old dude. We butt heads quite often. Used to love his electronics articles.

                         

                        Steve Spence

                        Director, Green Trust

                        http://www.green- trust.org


                        From: axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Kirk McLoren
                        Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 11:59 AM
                        To: axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com
                        Subject: RE: [axialflux] relationship between flux and speed in a generator

                         

                        That (homopolar) discussion starts on page 3. Did you skip pages 1 and 2?

                        It was remarked earlier that one of the users here didnt know velocity was important - thus page 2.
                        Kirk
                        Steve Spence <sspence@green- trust.org> wrote:

                        But not very related to an axial flux alternator. Homopolar generators are a completely different animal. Dc outputs and requiring brushes.

                         

                        Steve Spence

                        Director, Green Trust

                        http://www.green- trust.org


                        From: axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Kirk McLoren
                        Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 9:46 PM
                        To: axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com
                        Subject: [axialflux] relationship between flux and speed in a generator

                         

                         

                        A nice resource

                         

                        Kirk

                          

                         

                         


                        Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.



                         


                        How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.

                      • Kirk McLoren
                        He probably has a mild case of burnout. Or not so mild. Havent talked to him in years. I see he has some misinfo re ethanol. By and large he has some good
                        Message 11 of 24 , Aug 7, 2006
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                          He probably has a mild case of burnout. Or not so mild. Havent talked to him in years.
                          I see he has some misinfo re ethanol.
                          By and large he has some good articles though.
                           
                          Kirk

                          Steve Spence <sspence@...> wrote:
                          Mostly semantics. He “participates” a lot on Usenet, where someone will ask a question, and he will just post a URL as his “answer”, usually http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf, which, although a good page, is unrelated to the requestor’s specific question. He also finds fault from a theory standpoint with our actual performance data on subjects he has never played with. Apparently he thinks since he is genius level on some subjects, it makes him master of all ;-) I still have a lot of respect for him though. He and Nick Pine are diligent about making sure folks get their units correct, and that is important. They just need to learn to not kill the patient while hitting them over the head with factual corrections <grin>.
                           
                           
                          Steve Spence
                          Director, Green Trust
                          http://www.green-trust.org

                          From: axialflux@yahoogroups.com [mailto: axialflux@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Kirk McLoren
                          Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 1:00 PM
                          To: axialflux@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [axialflux] relationship between flux and speed in a generator
                           
                          Didnt know that. He tends to be technically correct.
                          Pretty good author though I dont see much anymore - but then the younger guys seem more and more to skip science class. Most of the publications are no more. 73 is gone and I knew an article was in the pipeline re rhombics at 2 meters. Now I will never get to read it. :(
                          So what are you and Don growling about if I may ask.
                           
                          Kirk

                          Steve Spence <sspence@green- trust.org> wrote:
                          I didn’t skip it, I just misunderstood the reason for the reference. I find Lancaster to be a crusty old dude. We butt heads quite often. Used to love his electronics articles.
                           
                          Steve Spence
                          Director, Green Trust
                          http://www.green- trust.org

                          From: axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Kirk McLoren
                          Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 11:59 AM
                          To: axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com
                          Subject: RE: [axialflux] relationship between flux and speed in a generator
                           
                          That (homopolar) discussion starts on page 3. Did you skip pages 1 and 2?
                          It was remarked earlier that one of the users here didnt know velocity was important - thus page 2.
                          Kirk
                          Steve Spence <sspence@green- trust.org> wrote:
                          But not very related to an axial flux alternator. Homopolar generators are a completely different animal. Dc outputs and requiring brushes.
                           
                          Steve Spence
                          Director, Green Trust
                          http://www.green- trust.org

                          From: axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Kirk McLoren
                          Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 9:46 PM
                          To: axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com
                          Subject: [axialflux] relationship between flux and speed in a generator
                           
                           
                          A nice resource
                           
                          Kirk
                            
                           
                           

                          Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.




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                          Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
                        • Lawrence Rayburn
                          Steve, An axial flux generator can be homopolar and will output only DC, if you spin the central disk with magnets mounted on both sides of the disk with the
                          Message 12 of 24 , Aug 8, 2006
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                            Steve,

                            An axial flux generator can be homopolar and will output only DC,
                            if you spin the central disk with magnets mounted on both sides
                            of the disk with the same pole facing outward, with coils mounted
                            on the ends on similar sized disks that are fixed, you don't have
                            any brushes or slip rings.

                            It's all in the design. A homopolar axial flux generator is one of
                            the most efficient designs available for a variable motive power
                            supply...such as wind, a small seasonal stream, etc.

                            I personally don't like alternators even with rectifiers to
                            convert to DC for battery storage because they are not as
                            efficient as simple homopolar generators at producing DC
                            power from a variable speed motive source.

                            Regards,

                            Lawrence




                            --- In axialflux@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Spence" <sspence@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > But not very related to an axial flux alternator. Homopolar
                            generators are a
                            > completely different animal. Dc outputs and requiring brushes.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Steve Spence
                            >
                            > Director, Green Trust
                            >
                            > http://www.green-trust.org
                            >
                            > _____
                            >
                            > From: axialflux@yahoogroups.com [mailto:axialflux@yahoogroups.com]
                            On Behalf
                            > Of Kirk McLoren
                            > Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 9:46 PM
                            > To: axialflux@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [axialflux] relationship between flux and speed in a
                            generator
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > http://www.tinaja <http://www.tinaja.com/glib/muse117.pdf>
                            > com/glib/muse117.pdf
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > A nice resource
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Kirk
                            >
                          • Steve Spence
                            Talk to me more offline on this homopolar axial flux generator design so that I can decide whether to cover it on this board. It sounds interesting. This is
                            Message 13 of 24 , Aug 8, 2006
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                              Talk to me more offline on this homopolar axial flux generator design so that I can decide whether to cover it on this board. It sounds interesting.

                               

                              This is the only reference I have read on this subject, and it didn’t look like what you are describing.

                               

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homopolar_generator

                               

                              Steve Spence

                              Director, Green Trust

                              http://www.green-trust.org


                              From: axialflux@yahoogroups.com [mailto: axialflux@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rayburn
                              Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 10:12 AM
                              To: axialflux@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [axialflux] Re:homopolar generator vs axial flux alternator

                               

                              Steve,

                              An axial flux generator can be homopolar and will output only DC,
                              if you spin the central disk with magnets mounted on both sides
                              of the disk with the same pole facing outward, with coils mounted
                              on the ends on similar sized disks that are fixed, you don't have
                              any brushes or slip rings.

                              It's all in the design. A homopolar axial flux generator is one of
                              the most efficient designs available for a variable motive power
                              supply...such as wind, a small seasonal stream, etc.

                              I personally don't like alternators even with rectifiers to
                              convert to DC for battery storage because they are not as
                              efficient as simple homopolar generators at producing DC
                              power from a variable speed motive source.

                              Regards,

                              Lawrence

                              --- In axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com, "Steve Spence" <sspence@... > wrote:

                              >
                              > But not very related to an axial flux alternator. Homopolar
                              generators are a
                              > completely different animal. Dc outputs and requiring brushes.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Steve Spence
                              >
                              > Director, Green Trust
                              >
                              > http://www.green- trust.org
                              >
                              > _____
                              >
                              > From: axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com
                              [mailto:axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com]
                              On Behalf
                              > Of Kirk McLoren
                              > Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 9:46 PM
                              > To: axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com
                              > Subject: [axialflux] relationship between flux and speed in a
                              generator
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > http://www.tinaja. <
                              href="http://www.tinaja.com/glib/muse117.pdf">http://www.tinaja. com/glib/ muse117.pdf>
                              > com/glib/muse117. pdf
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > A nice resource
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Kirk
                              >

                            • Dan Clarke
                              Hi, I m new to this stuff. Is there a website where the subject is discussed in a basic way? I d like to catch up. Thanks, Dan ... From: Lawrence Rayburn To:
                              Message 14 of 24 , Aug 8, 2006
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                                Hi,
                                 
                                I'm new to this stuff.
                                Is there a website where the subject is discussed in a basic way? I'd like to catch up.
                                 
                                Thanks,
                                Dan
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 7:12 AM
                                Subject: [axialflux] Re:homopolar generator vs axial flux alternator

                                Steve,

                                An axial flux generator can be homopolar and will output only DC,
                                if you spin the central disk with magnets mounted on both sides
                                of the disk with the same pole facing outward, with coils mounted
                                on the ends on similar sized disks that are fixed, you don't have
                                any brushes or slip rings.

                                It's all in the design. A homopolar axial flux generator is one of
                                the most efficient designs available for a variable motive power
                                supply...such as wind, a small seasonal stream, etc.

                                I personally don't like alternators even with rectifiers to
                                convert to DC for battery storage because they are not as
                                efficient as simple homopolar generators at producing DC
                                power from a variable speed motive source.

                                Regards,

                                Lawrence

                                --- In axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com, "Steve Spence" <sspence@... > wrote:
                                >
                                > But not very related to an axial flux alternator. Homopolar
                                generators are a
                                > completely different animal. Dc outputs and requiring brushes.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Steve Spence
                                >
                                > Director, Green Trust
                                >
                                > http://www.green- trust.org
                                >
                                > _____
                                >
                                > From: axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com]
                                On Behalf
                                > Of Kirk McLoren
                                > Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 9:46 PM
                                > To: axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com
                                > Subject: [axialflux] relationship between flux and speed in a
                                generator
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > http://www.tinaja. <http://www.tinaja. com/glib/ muse117.pdf>
                                > com/glib/muse117. pdf
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > A nice resource
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Kirk
                                >

                              • Jason MeGahee
                                Can we discuss this online? I would like to know more about this, and I am sure others on this list would as well. I would also be interested in Hugh s
                                Message 15 of 24 , Aug 8, 2006
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                                  Can we discuss this online? I would like to know more about this, and
                                  I am sure others on this list would as well. I would also be
                                  interested in Hugh's opinions on this.

                                  Thanks,
                                  Jason

                                  On 8/8/06, Steve Spence <sspence@...> wrote:
                                  > Talk to me more offline on this homopolar axial flux generator design so
                                  > that I can decide whether to cover it on this board. It sounds interesting.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > This is the only reference I have read on this subject, and it didn't look
                                  > like what you are describing.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homopolar_generator
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Steve Spence
                                  >
                                  > Director, Green Trust
                                  >
                                  > http://www.green-trust.org
                                  >
                                  > _____
                                  >
                                  > From: axialflux@yahoogroups.com [mailto:axialflux@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                  > Of Lawrence Rayburn
                                  > Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 10:12 AM
                                  > To: axialflux@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [axialflux] Re:homopolar generator vs axial flux alternator
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Steve,
                                  >
                                  > An axial flux generator can be homopolar and will output only DC,
                                  > if you spin the central disk with magnets mounted on both sides
                                  > of the disk with the same pole facing outward, with coils mounted
                                  > on the ends on similar sized disks that are fixed, you don't have
                                  > any brushes or slip rings.
                                  >
                                  > It's all in the design. A homopolar axial flux generator is one of
                                  > the most efficient designs available for a variable motive power
                                  > supply...such as wind, a small seasonal stream, etc.
                                  >
                                  > I personally don't like alternators even with rectifiers to
                                  > convert to DC for battery storage because they are not as
                                  > efficient as simple homopolar generators at producing DC
                                  > power from a variable speed motive source.
                                  >
                                  > Regards,
                                  >
                                  > Lawrence
                                  >
                                  > --- In axialflux@yahoogrou <mailto:axialflux%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com,
                                  > "Steve Spence" <sspence@...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > But not very related to an axial flux alternator. Homopolar
                                  > generators are a
                                  > > completely different animal. Dc outputs and requiring brushes.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Steve Spence
                                  > >
                                  > > Director, Green Trust
                                  > >
                                  > > http://www.green- <http://www.green-trust.org> trust.org
                                  > >
                                  > > _____
                                  > >
                                  > > From: axialflux@yahoogrou <mailto:axialflux%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                                  > [mailto:axialflux@yahoogrou <mailto:axialflux%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com]
                                  > On Behalf
                                  > > Of Kirk McLoren
                                  > > Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 9:46 PM
                                  > > To: axialflux@yahoogrou <mailto:axialflux%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                                  > > Subject: [axialflux] relationship between flux and speed in a
                                  > generator
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > http://www.tinaja. <http://www.tinaja.
                                  > <http://www.tinaja.com/glib/muse117.pdf> com/glib/muse117.pdf>
                                  > > com/glib/muse117.pdf
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > A nice resource
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Kirk
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Kirk McLoren
                                  Tesla improved the design quite a bit. He slotted it so it didnt short itself. Didnt see Tesla at Wiki Kirk Steve Spence wrote: v :*
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Aug 8, 2006
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                                    Tesla improved the design quite a bit. He slotted it so it didnt short itself.
                                    Didnt see Tesla at Wiki
                                     
                                    Kirk

                                    Steve Spence <sspence@...> wrote:
                                    Talk to me more offline on this homopolar axial flux generator design so that I can decide whether to cover it on this board. It sounds interesting.
                                     
                                    This is the only reference I have read on this subject, and it didn’t look like what you are describing.
                                     
                                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homopolar_generator
                                     
                                    Steve Spence
                                    Director, Green Trust
                                    http://www.green-trust.org

                                    From: axialflux@yahoogroups.com [mailto: axialflux@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rayburn
                                    Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 10:12 AM
                                    To: axialflux@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [axialflux] Re:homopolar generator vs axial flux alternator
                                     
                                    Steve,

                                    An axial flux generator can be homopolar and will output only DC,
                                    if you spin the central disk with magnets mounted on both sides
                                    of the disk with the same pole facing outward, with coils mounted
                                    on the ends on similar sized disks that are fixed, you don't have
                                    any brushes or slip rings.

                                    It's all in the design. A homopolar axial flux generator is one of
                                    the most efficient designs available for a variable motive power
                                    supply...such as wind, a small seasonal stream, etc.

                                    I personally don't like alternators even with rectifiers to
                                    convert to DC for battery storage because they are not as
                                    efficient as simple homopolar generators at producing DC
                                    power from a variable speed motive source.

                                    Regards,

                                    Lawrence

                                    --- In axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com, "Steve Spence" <sspence@... > wrote:
                                    >
                                    > But not very related to an axial flux alternator. Homopolar
                                    generators are a
                                    > completely different animal. Dc outputs and requiring brushes.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Steve Spence
                                    >
                                    > Director, Green Trust
                                    >
                                    > http://www.green- trust.org
                                    >
                                    > _____
                                    >
                                    > From: axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com]
                                    On Behalf
                                    > Of Kirk McLoren
                                    > Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 9:46 PM
                                    > To: axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com
                                    > Subject: [axialflux] relationship between flux and speed in a
                                    generator
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > http://www.tinaja. <http://www.tinaja. com/glib/ muse117.pdf>
                                    > com/glib/muse117. pdf
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > A nice resource
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Kirk
                                    >


                                    Groups are talking. We´re listening. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo! Groups.

                                  • Steve Spence
                                    Sure, go for it. I don t see it as a axial flux, but maybe it s close enough to consider. I m willing to be persuaded. Steve Spence Director, Green Trust
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Aug 8, 2006
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                                      Sure, go for it. I don’t see it as a axial flux, but maybe it’s close enough to consider. I’m willing to be persuaded.

                                       

                                      Steve Spence

                                      Director, Green Trust

                                      http://www.green-trust.org


                                      From: axialflux@yahoogroups.com [mailto: axialflux@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Jason MeGahee
                                      Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 1:05 PM
                                      To: axialflux@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [axialflux] Re: homopolar generator vs axial flux alternator

                                       

                                      Can we discuss this online? I would like to know more about this, and
                                      I am sure others on this list would as well. I would also be
                                      interested in Hugh's opinions on this.

                                      Thanks,
                                      Jason

                                      On 8/8/06, Steve Spence <sspence@green- trust.org> wrote:

                                      > Talk to me more offline on this homopolar axial flux generator design so
                                      > that I can decide whether to cover it on this board. It sounds
                                      interesting.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > This is the only reference I have read on this subject, and it didn't look
                                      > like what you are describing.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Homopolar_ generator
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Steve Spence
                                      >
                                      > Director, Green Trust
                                      >
                                      > http://www.green- trust.org
                                      >
                                      > _____
                                      >
                                      > From: axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com
                                      [mailto:axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf
                                      > Of Lawrence
                                      Rayburn
                                      > Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 10:12 AM
                                      > To: axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com
                                      > Subject: [axialflux] Re:homopolar generator vs axial flux alternator
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Steve,
                                      >
                                      > An axial flux generator can be homopolar and will output only DC,
                                      > if you spin the central disk with magnets mounted on both sides
                                      > of the disk with the same pole facing outward, with coils mounted
                                      > on the ends on similar sized disks that are fixed, you don't have
                                      > any brushes or slip rings.
                                      >
                                      > It's all in the design. A homopolar axial flux generator is one of
                                      > the most efficient designs available for a variable motive power
                                      > supply...such as wind, a small seasonal stream, etc.
                                      >
                                      > I personally don't like alternators even with rectifiers to
                                      > convert to DC for battery storage because they are not as
                                      > efficient as simple homopolar generators at producing DC
                                      > power from a variable speed motive source.
                                      >
                                      > Regards,
                                      >
                                      > Lawrence
                                      >
                                      > --- In axialflux@yahoogrou <mailto:axialflux% 40yahoogroups. com>
                                      ps.com,
                                      > "Steve Spence" <sspence@... > wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > But not very related to an axial flux alternator. Homopolar
                                      > generators are a
                                      > > completely different animal. Dc outputs and requiring brushes.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Steve Spence
                                      > >
                                      > > Director, Green Trust
                                      > >
                                      > > http://www.green- <
                                      href="http://www.green-trust.org">http://www.green- trust.org> trust.org
                                      > >
                                      > > _____
                                      > >
                                      > > From: axialflux@yahoogrou <mailto:axialflux% 40yahoogroups. com>
                                      ps.com
                                      > [mailto:axialflux@ yahoogrou <mailto:axialflux% 40yahoogroups. com>
                                      ps.com]
                                      > On Behalf
                                      > > Of Kirk McLoren
                                      > > Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 9:46 PM
                                      > > To: axialflux@yahoogrou <mailto:axialflux% 40yahoogroups. com>
                                      ps.com
                                      > > Subject: [axialflux] relationship between flux and speed in a
                                      > generator
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > http://www.tinaja. <
                                      href="http://www.tinaja.">http://www.tinaja.
                                      > <http://www.tinaja. com/glib/ muse117.pdf>
                                      com/glib/muse117. pdf>
                                      > > com/glib/muse117. pdf
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > A nice resource
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Kirk
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >

                                    • Steve Spence
                                      Well, here is good. So is otherpower.com, and the other links listed at this group s home page, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/axialflux/ Steve Spence Director,
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Aug 8, 2006
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                                        Well, here is good. So is otherpower.com, and the other links listed at this
                                        group's home page, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/axialflux/

                                        Steve Spence
                                        Director, Green Trust
                                        http://www.green-trust.org
                                        ________________________________________
                                        From: axialflux@yahoogroups.com [mailto:axialflux@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                        Of Dan Clarke
                                        Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 12:13 PM
                                        To: axialflux@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [axialflux] Re:homopolar generator vs axial flux alternator

                                        Hi,
                                         
                                        I'm new to this stuff.
                                        Is there a website where the subject is discussed in a basic way? I'd like
                                        to catch up.
                                         
                                        Thanks,
                                        Dan
                                      • Dan Bartmann
                                        Lawrence - maybe I have a misconception but from what I understand you re dead wrong. You cannot build a homo-polar axial flux generator that produces
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Aug 8, 2006
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                                          Lawrence - maybe I have a misconception but from what I understand
                                          you're dead wrong. You cannot build a 'homo-polar axial flux
                                          generator' that produces direct current without brushes/commutator or
                                          rectifiers. I wonder why you tell people stuff like this... it only
                                          causes confusion.

                                          Perhaps I'm wrong and if so forgive me - but if it is so simple can
                                          you show us a single example of such a thing? If it was so simple and
                                          efficient I expect folks would have been doing it now for... 100+
                                          years or so.

                                          I'm fairly certain it's impossible.
                                          - DanB

                                          --- In axialflux@yahoogroups.com, "Lawrence Rayburn"
                                          <lawrencerayburn@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Steve,
                                          >
                                          > An axial flux generator can be homopolar and will output only DC,
                                          > if you spin the central disk with magnets mounted on both sides
                                          > of the disk with the same pole facing outward, with coils mounted
                                          > on the ends on similar sized disks that are fixed, you don't have
                                          > any brushes or slip rings.
                                          >
                                          > It's all in the design. A homopolar axial flux generator is one of
                                          > the most efficient designs available for a variable motive power
                                          > supply...such as wind, a small seasonal stream, etc.
                                          >
                                          > I personally don't like alternators even with rectifiers to
                                          > convert to DC for battery storage because they are not as
                                          > efficient as simple homopolar generators at producing DC
                                          > power from a variable speed motive source.
                                          >
                                          > Regards,
                                          >
                                          > Lawrence
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --- In axialflux@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Spence" <sspence@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > But not very related to an axial flux alternator. Homopolar
                                          > generators are a
                                          > > completely different animal. Dc outputs and requiring brushes.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Steve Spence
                                          > >
                                          > > Director, Green Trust
                                          > >
                                          > > http://www.green-trust.org
                                          > >
                                          > > _____
                                          > >
                                          > > From: axialflux@yahoogroups.com [mailto:axialflux@yahoogroups.com]
                                          > On Behalf
                                          > > Of Kirk McLoren
                                          > > Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 9:46 PM
                                          > > To: axialflux@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > Subject: [axialflux] relationship between flux and speed in a
                                          > generator
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > http://www.tinaja <http://www.tinaja.com/glib/muse117.pdf>
                                          > > com/glib/muse117.pdf
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > A nice resource
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Kirk
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • Kirk McLoren
                                          I always thought of homopolar generators as very low voltage. Check this out - 500 volts Kirk
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Aug 8, 2006
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                                            I always thought of homopolar generators as very low voltage.
                                            Check this out - 500 volts
                                             
                                            Kirk
                                             
                                            IEEE Trans. Magn. ; Vol/Issue: MAG-22:6
                                            Research OrgGA Technologies, Inc., P.O. Box 85608, San Diego, CA 92138
                                            A homopolar generator with 500 volts output is being designed and built as a pulsed power source.^ A key component used in achieving this high output voltage is the 5 tesla field coil.^ A superconducting coil is required for a compact configuration that operates above the saturation of iron.^ The coil case is 158 cm long and has an outside diameter of 137 cm with a 79 cm warm bore for installation of the generator rotor assembly.^ This large, intrinsically stable coil was designed to achieve a uniform magnetic field in the area of the rotor brushes.^ The coil was wound with 87.5 km of copper-stabilized niobium/titanium superconductor in an epoxy matrix.^ Fabrication of the coil and its containment cryostat is complete, and it is being used in the high-voltage homopolar generator test program.

                                            Steve Spence <sspence@...> wrote:
                                            Talk to me more offline on this homopolar axial flux generator design so that I can decide whether to cover it on this board. It sounds interesting.
                                             
                                            This is the only reference I have read on this subject, and it didn’t look like what you are describing.
                                             
                                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homopolar_generator
                                             
                                            Steve Spence
                                            Director, Green Trust
                                            http://www.green-trust.org

                                            From: axialflux@yahoogroups.com [mailto: axialflux@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rayburn
                                            Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 10:12 AM
                                            To: axialflux@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [axialflux] Re:homopolar generator vs axial flux alternator
                                             
                                            Steve,

                                            An axial flux generator can be homopolar and will output only DC,
                                            if you spin the central disk with magnets mounted on both sides
                                            of the disk with the same pole facing outward, with coils mounted
                                            on the ends on similar sized disks that are fixed, you don't have
                                            any brushes or slip rings.

                                            It's all in the design. A homopolar axial flux generator is one of
                                            the most efficient designs available for a variable motive power
                                            supply...such as wind, a small seasonal stream, etc.

                                            I personally don't like alternators even with rectifiers to
                                            convert to DC for battery storage because they are not as
                                            efficient as simple homopolar generators at producing DC
                                            power from a variable speed motive source.

                                            Regards,

                                            Lawrence

                                            --- In axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com, "Steve Spence" <sspence@... > wrote:
                                            >
                                            > But not very related to an axial flux alternator. Homopolar
                                            generators are a
                                            > completely different animal. Dc outputs and requiring brushes.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Steve Spence
                                            >
                                            > Director, Green Trust
                                            >
                                            > http://www.green- trust.org
                                            >
                                            > _____
                                            >
                                            > From: axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com]
                                            On Behalf
                                            > Of Kirk McLoren
                                            > Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 9:46 PM
                                            > To: axialflux@yahoogrou ps.com
                                            > Subject: [axialflux] relationship between flux and speed in a
                                            generator
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > http://www.tinaja. <http://www.tinaja. com/glib/ muse117.pdf>
                                            > com/glib/muse117. pdf
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > A nice resource
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Kirk
                                            >


                                            Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.

                                          • Lawrence Rayburn
                                            Dan, Let s drop back to basic definitions to get everyone on the same page, okay? Axial Flux.....what does that mean? I understand it to mean magnetic flux
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Aug 8, 2006
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                                              Dan,

                                              Let's drop back to basic definitions to get everyone on the same
                                              page, okay?

                                              Axial Flux.....what does that mean? I understand it to mean
                                              magnetic flux lines running along an axis, revolving around an
                                              axis...or common axle.

                                              These magnetic flux lines are supposed to 'cut' the windings of a
                                              coil in a manner to induce current. That means the magnetic field
                                              flux lines must cut the coil wire at an angle, right?
                                              But, what if the coil wire is oriented so the flux lines move parallel
                                              to the wires? You still get electrons pushed along in the wire, do
                                              you not? So, you are inducing voltage in the coil windings even
                                              with that parallel orientation. If the ebb and flow of electrons
                                              moving with magnetic flux lines cancel one another out, then you
                                              have no output. Follow me, so far?

                                              A homopolar magnet array presents one pole to the coil. With gaps
                                              between the magnets, the magnetic flux breaks the coil windings
                                              the same direction all the time and maximizes intensity and
                                              suddenly drops off then picks up again to max as the next magnet
                                              moves into place...so you get a type of peristaltic pulsation of
                                              induced voltage/current....trains of electrons that want to move
                                              in a single direct.

                                              It's really more efficient to think of a homopolar generator
                                              as an electron pump that turns only one direction, inducing
                                              voltage/current in only one direction.

                                              So, we build a disk of aluminum or brass (not steel) and place
                                              flat circular magnets around the disk, equally spaced for balance
                                              and oriented so only one pole is facing outward. We drill a hole
                                              through the disk and attach a similar magnet on a common brass
                                              bolt to the other side of the disk so that the tightened brass
                                              bolt forces the like poles of the magnet together (and epoxy in
                                              place). This causes the repelling magnetic flux field to wrap around
                                              and reinforce the flux fields on the outward facing magnetic poles...
                                              and they are all the same pole. Now we wind flat pancake coils
                                              that are oval shaped so that half the windings are in the flux
                                              path and the other half are facing away from the flux path of the
                                              moving magnets. We attach these coils to round end plates of
                                              brass or aluminum (aluminum will heat due to hysterisis...the
                                              magnetic flux lines passing through the aluminum but doesn't do
                                              so with brass) in fixed positions so the magnetic flux lines
                                              excite the coil wires in one direction. This gives the electron
                                              pump effect of the homopolar generator.

                                              Because the magnets are spinning on the central disk, and the coils
                                              are fixed on the end cap disks, there is no need for slip rings or
                                              brushes to collect the DC charge.

                                              These DC generators WORK, and work well with a windmill driving them.
                                              The wind speed varies and the voltage output of the generator
                                              varies....but it doesn't have to maintain 3600 RPM to produce
                                              usable DC voltage. It will produce usable voltage at very low
                                              speeds and still store in batteries. My modified Savonius
                                              turns between 50 and 450 RPMs and with this generator, produces
                                              usable voltage in 2 to 3 mph winds.

                                              And that is the object of this exercise. To produce the most
                                              efficient means of generating electricity from the available
                                              wind energy.

                                              So, the generator looks like a disk or pancake short stack with
                                              an axle or drive shaft running through the middle.

                                              Regards,

                                              Lawrence



                                              -- In axialflux@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Bartmann" <danb@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Lawrence - maybe I have a misconception but from what I understand
                                              > you're dead wrong. You cannot build a 'homo-polar axial flux
                                              > generator' that produces direct current without brushes/commutator
                                              or
                                              > rectifiers. I wonder why you tell people stuff like this... it only
                                              > causes confusion.
                                              >
                                              > Perhaps I'm wrong and if so forgive me - but if it is so simple can
                                              > you show us a single example of such a thing? If it was so simple
                                              and
                                              > efficient I expect folks would have been doing it now for... 100+
                                              > years or so.
                                              >
                                              > I'm fairly certain it's impossible.
                                              > - DanB
                                              >
                                              > --- In axialflux@yahoogroups.com, "Lawrence Rayburn"
                                              > <lawrencerayburn@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Steve,
                                              > >
                                              > > An axial flux generator can be homopolar and will output only DC,
                                              > > if you spin the central disk with magnets mounted on both sides
                                              > > of the disk with the same pole facing outward, with coils mounted
                                              > > on the ends on similar sized disks that are fixed, you don't have
                                              > > any brushes or slip rings.
                                              > >
                                              > > It's all in the design. A homopolar axial flux generator is one
                                              of
                                              > > the most efficient designs available for a variable motive power
                                              > > supply...such as wind, a small seasonal stream, etc.
                                              > >
                                              > > I personally don't like alternators even with rectifiers to
                                              > > convert to DC for battery storage because they are not as
                                              > > efficient as simple homopolar generators at producing DC
                                              > > power from a variable speed motive source.
                                              > >
                                              > > Regards,
                                              > >
                                              > > Lawrence
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > --- In axialflux@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Spence" <sspence@> wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > But not very related to an axial flux alternator. Homopolar
                                              > > generators are a
                                              > > > completely different animal. Dc outputs and requiring brushes.
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Steve Spence
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Director, Green Trust
                                              > > >
                                              > > > http://www.green-trust.org
                                              > > >
                                              > > > _____
                                              > > >
                                              > > > From: axialflux@yahoogroups.com
                                              [mailto:axialflux@yahoogroups.com]
                                              > > On Behalf
                                              > > > Of Kirk McLoren
                                              > > > Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 9:46 PM
                                              > > > To: axialflux@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > > Subject: [axialflux] relationship between flux and speed in a
                                              > > generator
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > http://www.tinaja <http://www.tinaja.com/glib/muse117.pdf>
                                              > > > com/glib/muse117.pdf
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > A nice resource
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Kirk
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                            • Larry D. Barr
                                              Not really a backyard DIY project, is it? I think I ll stick with our usual type of axial flux genny until the other ones don t have to be made out of
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Aug 8, 2006
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                                                Not really a backyard DIY project, is it? I think I'll stick with our
                                                usual type of axial flux genny until the other ones don't have to be
                                                made out of unobtanium.

                                                Peace,
                                                ldb

                                                Larry D. Barr
                                                K5WLF
                                                Owner, Rebel Wolf Energy Systems
                                                http://www.rebelwolf.com/
                                                Founder-Moderator, 12VDC Power Group
                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12VDC_Power



                                                Kirk McLoren wrote:
                                                > I always thought of homopolar generators as very low voltage.
                                                > Check this out - 500 volts
                                                > Kirk
                                                > http://www.osti.gov/energycitations/product.biblio.jsp?osti_id=5525789
                                                > <http://www.osti.gov/energycitations/product.biblio.jsp?osti_id=5525789>
                                                > IEEE Trans. Magn. ; Vol/Issue: MAG-22:6
                                                > Research Org GA Technologies, Inc., P.O. Box 85608, San Diego, CA 92138
                                                >
                                                > A homopolar generator with 500 volts output is being designed and
                                                > built as a pulsed power source.^ A key component used in achieving
                                                > this high output voltage is the 5 tesla field coil.^ A superconducting
                                                > coil is required for a compact configuration that operates above the
                                                > saturation of iron.^ The coil case is 158 cm long and has an outside
                                                > diameter of 137 cm with a 79 cm warm bore for installation of the
                                                > generator rotor assembly.^ This large, intrinsically stable coil was
                                                > designed to achieve a uniform magnetic field in the area of the rotor
                                                > brushes.^ The coil was wound with 87.5 km of copper-stabilized
                                                > niobium/titanium superconductor in an epoxy matrix.^ Fabrication of
                                                > the coil and its containment cryostat is complete, and it is being
                                                > used in the high-voltage homopolar generator test program.
                                                >
                                                > */Steve Spence <sspence@...>/* wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Talk to me more offline on this homopolar axial flux generator
                                                > design so that I can decide whether to cover it on this board. It
                                                > sounds interesting.
                                                > This is the only reference I have read on this subject, and it
                                                > didn’t look like what you are describing.
                                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homopolar_generator
                                                > Steve Spence
                                                > Director, Green Trust
                                                > http://www.green-trust.org
                                                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                > *From:* axialflux@yahoogroups.com
                                                > [mailto:axialflux@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Lawrence Rayburn
                                                > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 08, 2006 10:12 AM
                                                > *To:* axialflux@yahoogroups.com
                                                > *Subject:* [axialflux] Re:homopolar generator vs axial flux alternator
                                                > Steve,
                                                >
                                                > An axial flux generator can be homopolar and will output only DC,
                                                > if you spin the central disk with magnets mounted on both sides
                                                > of the disk with the same pole facing outward, with coils mounted
                                                > on the ends on similar sized disks that are fixed, you don't have
                                                > any brushes or slip rings.
                                                >
                                                > It's all in the design. A homopolar axial flux generator is one of
                                                > the most efficient designs available for a variable motive power
                                                > supply...such as wind, a small seasonal stream, etc.
                                                >
                                                > I personally don't like alternators even with rectifiers to
                                                > convert to DC for battery storage because they are not as
                                                > efficient as simple homopolar generators at producing DC
                                                > power from a variable speed motive source.
                                                >
                                                > Regards,
                                                >
                                                > Lawrence
                                                >
                                                > --- In axialflux@yahoogroups.com
                                                > <mailto:axialflux%40yahoogroups.com>, "Steve Spence" <sspence@...>
                                                > wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > But not very related to an axial flux alternator. Homopolar
                                                > generators are a
                                                > > completely different animal. Dc outputs and requiring brushes.
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Steve Spence
                                                > >
                                                > > Director, Green Trust
                                                > >
                                                > > http://www.green-trust.org <http://www.green-trust.org/>
                                                > >
                                                > > _____
                                                > >
                                                > > From: axialflux@yahoogroups.com
                                                > <mailto:axialflux%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                > [mailto:axialflux@yahoogroups.com
                                                > <mailto:axialflux%40yahoogroups.com>]
                                                > On Behalf
                                                > > Of Kirk McLoren
                                                > > Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 9:46 PM
                                                > > To: axialflux@yahoogroups.com <mailto:axialflux%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                > > Subject: [axialflux] relationship between flux and speed in a
                                                > generator
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > http://www.tinaja <http://www.tinaja/>
                                                > <http://www.tinaja.com/glib/muse117.pdf
                                                > <http://www.tinaja.com/glib/muse117.pdf>>
                                                > > com/glib/muse117.pdf
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > A nice resource
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Kirk
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                > Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
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                                                >
                                              • Jason MeGahee
                                                Lawrence, I follow most of what you have said but still have a few questions (please forgive me if I sound like an idiot, I have not actually built an
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Aug 9, 2006
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                                                  Lawrence,

                                                  I follow most of what you have said but still have a few questions
                                                  (please forgive me if I sound like an idiot, I have not actually built
                                                  an alternator or generator yet but have been looking and reading for
                                                  about 2 years now).


                                                  > So, we build a disk of aluminum or brass (not steel) and place
                                                  > flat circular magnets around the disk, equally spaced for balance
                                                  > and oriented so only one pole is facing outward.

                                                  Why aluminium or brass? Would any non-ferrous material work? What
                                                  about plastic or carbon fiber?

                                                  We drill a hole
                                                  > through the disk and attach a similar magnet on a common brass
                                                  > bolt to the other side of the disk so that the tightened brass
                                                  > bolt forces the like poles of the magnet together (and epoxy in
                                                  > place). This causes the repelling magnetic flux field to wrap around
                                                  > and reinforce the flux fields on the outward facing magnetic poles...
                                                  > and they are all the same pole.

                                                  I think I understand what you are saying here but I can't understand
                                                  why. So you have a magnet, we'll say the N face is pointing away from
                                                  the disk, that is connected with a brass bolt thru the disk to another
                                                  magnet with its N face pointing away from the disk. This seems very
                                                  odd and like it may be prone to failure over time, but more
                                                  importantly I don't understand the purpose. If it is to strengthen the
                                                  outward facing mag. field, why not just use a bigger magnet?

                                                  Now we wind flat pancake coils
                                                  > that are oval shaped so that half the windings are in the flux
                                                  > path and the other half are facing away from the flux path of the
                                                  > moving magnets. We attach these coils to round end plates of
                                                  > brass or aluminum (aluminum will heat due to hysterisis...the
                                                  > magnetic flux lines passing through the aluminum but doesn't do
                                                  > so with brass) in fixed positions so the magnetic flux lines
                                                  > excite the coil wires in one direction.

                                                  This sounds like you are describing the same setup (at least for this
                                                  part) that is used in Hugh's plans. Perhaps my confusion could be
                                                  ameliorated by a diagram or pictures of your own generator.
                                                  Also, is there two of these disks with coils, one on either side of
                                                  the magnet arrangement? If that is the case I can begin to understand
                                                  why you have the strange mag. setup. Otherwise, I'm still a bit
                                                  confused.

                                                  >
                                                  > Because the magnets are spinning on the central disk, and the coils
                                                  > are fixed on the end cap disks, there is no need for slip rings or
                                                  > brushes to collect the DC charge.
                                                  >

                                                  How are the coils wired together and the output collected? I would
                                                  assume that there must be some other electronic component in the line
                                                  that regulates the voltage sent to the batteries?

                                                  So, for the same materials (i.e. magnets and wire) and the same RPM
                                                  you are saying that this arrangement produces more power than the
                                                  axial flux alt. of Hugh's design? Have you done any side by side bench
                                                  testing? Thanks for your help getting me to understand this. I am very
                                                  close to building this part of my project and appreciate all of the
                                                  information I can get.

                                                  Jason
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