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Re: [avant-progressive] NWW influences.

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  • Alex Temple
    ... Hmm. I would think that the most surrealistic music-making process would be improvisation, as it s akin to automatic writing. Either that or, taking
    Message 1 of 17 , Apr 1, 2003
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      --- lasciviakuci <harmonia@...> wrote:
      > --- In avant-progressive@yahoogroups.com, Meidad Zaharia
      > <meidad@y...>
      > Note that the title of the album comes from Lautremont's
      > answer to the
      > question, "What is Surrealism?" This is perhaps the main
      > pointer to
      > NWW's work, as Stapleton has said that he deliberately
      > constructs his
      > music in a surrealistic fashion.

      Hmm. I would think that the most surrealistic music-making
      process would be improvisation, as it's akin to automatic
      writing. Either that or, taking Lautremont's cue, making music
      like John Zorn, i.e. the incongruous juxtaposition of banal,
      everyday materials in surprising ways. (Actually, NWW sounds
      like the opposite to me: interesting and surprising sounds,
      arranged banally. :)

      =====
      Alex Temple
      fiber_optiq@...
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    • lasciviakuci
      ... I don t deny your assessment, but Stapleton sees his music another way. The excerpt at bottom comes from his interview with The Wire in July 1997 (the
      Message 2 of 17 , Apr 2, 2003
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        --- In avant-progressive@yahoogroups.com, Alex Temple .
        >
        > Hmm. I would think that the most surrealistic music-making
        > process would be improvisation, as it's akin to automatic
        > writing. Either that or, taking Lautremont's cue, making music
        > like John Zorn, i.e. the incongruous juxtaposition of banal,
        > everyday materials in surprising ways. (Actually, NWW sounds
        > like the opposite to me: interesting and surprising sounds,
        > arranged banally. :)

        I don't deny your assessment, but Stapleton sees his music another
        way. The excerpt at bottom comes from his interview with The Wire in
        July 1997 (the extended version on WFMU); you can find the entire
        interview at:

        http://brainwashed.com/nww

        I should note that, on another Yahoo! group, Tom Hayes helped show
        that, despite Stapleton's assertions, all of the NWW list items exist.
        I asked the Freemans about this, as Stapleton asserted the same in an
        interview with them, and their thinking is that perhaps a few things
        on the list were meant as jokes, but that there turned out to be bands
        with that name. For instance, they mention "God In Disguise". Now,
        this is regarded as being "Förklädd Gud", a Swedish band of exactly
        the type that appear on the list, and whose name translates to "God In
        Disguise", as even stated on the album. However, it seems unlikely
        that Stapleton was unaware of them, and I concur with Tom Hayes'
        suspicion that Stapleton nowadays regards the list as a bit of an
        albatross and is trying to mess with collectors' heads.

        Darren

        ___________________________________________________________________
        "We were associated with 'Industrial' music purely due to the fact
        that we were around at the same time and our album cover was 'dark',"
        bemoans Steven Stapleton aka Nurse With Wound, "it didn't matter what
        the music was like. I mean, in reality our music was much closer to
        free improvisation - Incus and FMP, things like that. There's no
        comparison between Throbbing Gristle or Industrial music and Nurse.
        To me Nurse music is Surrealist music. It's the displacement of
        something ordinary into an extraordinary setting. I take ordinary
        things - instruments, solos, what have you, and place them in unusual
        settings, giving a completely different angle on the way instruments
        and composition are looked at." Just as Surrealism functioned as a
        rupture or a breakdown in the teleology of empirical reality, an
        exhumation of the subconscious, so 'noise' exposes the sonic chaos at
        the base of all music. The surrealism of Nurse With Wound is a
        mischievous and heady disruption, an attack on order and form, laced
        with the blackest of humors.

        Despite the inclusion of the aforementioned list as some kind of
        openly genre defiant gesture, dunderhead logic prevailed and even
        today there are still some deluded parties convinced they 'know' what
        Nurse are 'all about'.

        "The Nurse list was an attempt to get in contact with like-minded
        people that were interested in the kind of music that we were
        interested in which is, like it says on the list, 'electric
        experimental music'. We met loads of people through that list, and
        since then, it's become legendary. I mean there's things on the list
        that don't exist - I'm not saying what they are but I've seen them on
        people's want-lists for hundreds of pounds."
      • Raoul Rabut
        ... Now that s something I really don t understand. I remember being very shocked when reading that sentence in the Wire article. NWW s association with
        Message 3 of 17 , Apr 2, 2003
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          At 21:00 2/04/03, you wrote:
          >We were associated with 'Industrial' music purely due to the fact
          >that we were around at the same time and our album cover was 'dark',"
          >bemoans Steven Stapleton aka Nurse With Wound, "it didn't matter what
          >the music was like. I mean, in reality our music was much closer to
          >free improvisation - Incus and FMP, things like that.

          Now that's something I really don't understand. I remember being very
          shocked when reading that sentence in the Wire article.

          NWW's association with "industrial music" was more than a coincidence. I've
          always viewed it that way. Since the early years (and particularly during
          these years), they helped with the foundation of the "second generation of
          industrial music", being recording artists for typically industrial labels
          like Laylah, taking parts in lots of industrial cassettes compilations and
          sharing the same mailorder adress as Whitehouse. The name Whitehouse isn't
          even mentioned in The Wire article, which I find... strange, to say the
          least. They played on each other's albums and Steve did some artwork for them.

          I agree to say that NWW's music itself isn't typically industrial, though,
          not in the sense "factory noise + feedback".

          But it's not only because they were dark and contemporary of the industrial
          scene that they were labeled "industrial". There are objective reasons to
          label them "industrial". Certainly more reasons to label them "industrial"
          than to label them "free improvisation".

          I'm curious about your view on this subject.
        • lasciviakuci
          ... I concur fully that his music has more similarity to industrial music than to free-improv, especially in later years when studio manipulations came to the
          Message 4 of 17 , Apr 2, 2003
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            --- In avant-progressive@yahoogroups.com, Raoul Rabut wrote
            >
            > I'm curious about your view on this subject.

            I concur fully that his music has more similarity to industrial music
            than to free-improv, especially in later years when studio
            manipulations came to the fore: how is that free-improv? I was just
            pointing out that Stapleton at least regards Lautremont and the
            free-improv scene as related to what he does, even if we don't.

            On the other hand, if NWW was lumped in with the industrial scene
            after the first LP, it shouldn't be surprising, nor a contradiction of
            Stapleton's viewpoint, that Stapleton professionally associated with
            industrial musicians, contributed to industrial labels, etc.

            Darren
          • mark jung
            free improv? wishful thinking, i guess, or maybe an errant desire - then again, maybe stapleton wants free improv to mean something other than what it does
            Message 5 of 17 , Apr 2, 2003
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              free improv? wishful thinking, i guess, or maybe an errant desire - then
              again, maybe stapleton wants "free improv" to mean something other than what
              it does to me (and probably the rest of us). the closest relations to his
              early works (which i dumped a few months ago. definitely NOT for the weak of
              hearing) are certainly NOT free-improvisation, but noisy studio
              constructions. i'd be hard-pressed to see where *anything* NWW released
              could be construed as a "free improv", period. and i still have a lot of it.


              >--- In avant-progressive@yahoogroups.com, Raoul Rabut wrote
              > >
              > > I'm curious about your view on this subject.

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            • dtohir@aol.com
              ... I have a friend who used to do what could only be described as studio improvs. He d take various tapes, synths, effects & whatnot & spontaneously create
              Message 6 of 17 , Apr 2, 2003
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                In a message dated 4/2/2003 2:59:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, markvj@... writes:

                > certainly NOT free-improvisation, but noisy studio
                > constructions.


                I have a friend who used to do what could only be described as studio improvs. He'd take various tapes, synths, effects & whatnot & spontaneously create pieces, some not completely unlike NWW. I have no idea if Stapleton does anything remotely like this however.
              • Alex Temple
                ... I think this is a fairly common phenomenon. I ve heard quite a few artists say What? My music sounds nothing like X! , where X is something that all
                Message 7 of 17 , Apr 2, 2003
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                  --- lasciviakuci <harmonia@...> wrote:
                  > --- In avant-progressive@yahoogroups.com, Raoul Rabut wrote
                  > I concur fully that his music has more similarity to
                  > industrial music
                  > than to free-improv, especially in later years when studio
                  > manipulations came to the fore: how is that free-improv? I
                  > was just
                  > pointing out that Stapleton at least regards Lautremont and
                  > the
                  > free-improv scene as related to what he does, even if we
                  > don't.

                  I think this is a fairly common phenomenon. I've heard quite a
                  few artists say "What? My music sounds nothing like X!", where X
                  is something that all their fans seem to hear a strong
                  connection to. Obvious examples include Mike Johnson's refusal
                  to be labelled "RIO," and Radiohead's denial that they sound
                  like "prog."

                  I've experienced this a bit with my own music. I played a track
                  for someone today who described it as "ambient," which is not a
                  term I'd apply to more than maybe 0.5% of my music. I don't
                  even like ambient music.

                  =====
                  Alex Temple
                  fiber_optiq@...
                  Memes don't exist. Tell your friends.

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                • CuneiWay@aol.com
                  ... You just THINK you don t like ambient music, but obviously you do, since you are *making* ambient music! Along with Mike Johnson who makes RIO and
                  Message 8 of 17 , Apr 2, 2003
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                    >I don't
                    >even like ambient music.

                    You just THINK you don't like ambient music, but obviously you do, since you
                    are *making* ambient music!

                    Along with Mike Johnson who makes RIO and Radiohead who makes prog!

                    <grin>

                    Steve
                  • Alex Temple
                    ... OH NO, YOU RE RIGHT!!!!! GOD HELP ME ===== Alex Temple fiber_optiq@yahoo.com Memes don t exist. Tell your friends.
                    Message 9 of 17 , Apr 2, 2003
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                      --- CuneiWay@... wrote:
                      > You just THINK you don't like ambient music, but obviously you
                      > do, since you
                      > are *making* ambient music!
                      >
                      > Along with Mike Johnson who makes RIO and Radiohead who makes
                      > prog!
                      >
                      > <grin>

                      OH NO, YOU'RE RIGHT!!!!! GOD HELP ME

                      =====
                      Alex Temple
                      fiber_optiq@...
                      Memes don't exist. Tell your friends.

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                    • mkbox0
                      ... God can t help you now. God fell asleep...
                      Message 10 of 17 , Apr 2, 2003
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                        --- Alex Temple wrote:
                        > --- CuneiWay@a... wrote:
                        > > You just THINK you don't like ambient music, but obviously you
                        > > do, since you
                        > > are *making* ambient music!


                        > OH NO, YOU'RE RIGHT!!!!! GOD HELP ME

                        God can't help you now. God fell asleep...
                      • Alex Temple
                        ... Homer Simpson during a meteor shower: I wish God were alive to see this... ===== Alex Temple fiber_optiq@yahoo.com Memes don t exist. Tell your friends.
                        Message 11 of 17 , Apr 3, 2003
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                          --- mkbox0 <box0@...> wrote:
                          > God can't help you now. God fell asleep...
                          >
                          Homer Simpson during a meteor shower: "I wish God were alive to
                          see this..."

                          =====
                          Alex Temple
                          fiber_optiq@...
                          Memes don't exist. Tell your friends.

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