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re: Hatfield

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  • CuneiWay@aol.com
    Craig wrote ... Because he shouldn t have been selling on cassette in the first place, b/c he didn t have the permission of the others and when they found out,
    Message 1 of 24 , Oct 31, 2002
      Craig wrote

      >(I was told he was selling this tape at one point, (years ago when he
      >came over to the USA for a 'tour' of sorts)..... I wonder why it was
      >never put out properly?)

      Because he shouldn't have been selling on cassette in the first place, b/c he
      didn't have the permission of the others and when they found out, I heard
      that they were upset.

      Steve
    • chrispotts1962
      ...mentioning Hatfield in my last post, I should say that they re at the top of their game, playing wonderfully. Pip Pyle was positively Vanderesque, and Phil
      Message 2 of 24 , Oct 28, 2005
        ...mentioning Hatfield in my last post, I should say that they're at
        the top of their game, playing wonderfully. Pip Pyle was positively
        Vanderesque, and Phil Miller exceptionally good, you all hopefully
        know how good Richard and Alex are, without me having to list each. A
        really tightly knitted but flexible group sound, that had gotten even
        more visceral, subtle and enjoyable than when I last raved about them
        last March.
        So any gig bookers out there ?
        Hope this line up generates enough new material for a CD - it should
        be exceptional.
        cheers
        Chris
      • Debbie S.
        ... This sounds great to me! Would love to see them come to the US to perform. BTW, I m a new member and I m sure I know some of you here. I ve been
        Message 3 of 24 , Oct 28, 2005
          --- In avant-progressive@yahoogroups.com, "chrispotts1962"
          <chrisp.potts@v...> wrote:
          >
          > ...mentioning Hatfield in my last post, I should say that they're at
          > the top of their game, playing wonderfully. Pip Pyle was positively
          > Vanderesque, and Phil Miller exceptionally good, you all hopefully
          > know how good Richard and Alex are, without me having to list each. A
          > really tightly knitted but flexible group sound, that had gotten even
          > more visceral, subtle and enjoyable than when I last raved about them
          > last March.
          > So any gig bookers out there ?
          > Hope this line up generates enough new material for a CD - it should
          > be exceptional.
          > cheers
          > Chris
          >

          This sounds great to me! Would love to see them come to the US to
          perform. BTW, I'm a new member and I'm sure I know some of you here.
          I've been interested in Avant music for awhile (though I like lots of
          progressive styles) and want to explore it some more. Not so sure I
          consider Hatfield as Avant, but a durn good band! : )

          Deb S.
          "The Prog-Rock Diner"
          www.fcac.org/webr Noon to 2pm Sundays EST
        • CuneiWay@aol.com
          Hi Deb, ... me either, but as it says in the intro, please feel free to talk (nicely) about whatever you want... Steve
          Message 4 of 24 , Oct 28, 2005
            Hi Deb,

            >Not so sure I
            >consider Hatfield as Avant,


            me either, but as it says in the intro, please feel free to talk (nicely)
            about whatever you want...

            Steve
          • fiveknuckle147
            Hi All Hi Steve F I m interested in why you picked the word Avant-Progressive as the name of this Yahoo Group and if the list members are the ones you were
            Message 5 of 24 , Oct 28, 2005
              Hi All
              Hi Steve F
              I'm interested in why you picked the word "Avant-Progressive" as the
              name of this Yahoo Group and if the list members are the ones you were
              aiming for in the first place?
              Do the two sit easily together on the same Yahoo Group?

              Personally, listening to Avant-Garde is a massive leap of faith from
              listening to Progressive and I would guess it is appreciated by a
              minority of list members? (no problems with that by the way!) I don't
              really "get off" on Avant Garde as I really struggle without some form
              of rhythm within the music. Off the top of my head, from my own
              listening pleasures, Tangerine Dream "Zeit", Art Zoyd, Patricia Dallio
              are about as "Rhythmless" on occasions as I get but I don't really
              consider them Avant-Garde. (should I?)

              I'm sure many of us read this list for recommendations.
              I recently made a few purchases down the Biota route after reading
              some interesting postings on them and on first listening found them a
              leap to far for my own tastes. I know from experience that things like
              this grow on you but this posting is not so about much whether they
              are Avant-Garde or not but about avoiding recommendations in the
              future that are not up my alley.

              I own a fair number of Cuneiform releases and I don't think any of
              them are in an Avant-Garde vein and I'm not aware many that are(?) so
              hence my original question to Steve F and as a small (tongue in cheek)
              plea to people posting future recommendations could I have an
              Avant-Garde beware warning smiley at the end of each review?

              Steve D

              Currently nailed into my CD player - Fabio Mentz Quarteto - Cantigas.
              Wow! What a CD! Thank you Wayside (and whoever reviewed it), is there
              any more from him or anything in a very similar vein? It is simply
              addictive (Avant-Garde free CD)
            • Frank Camiola
              ... Steve D - What would you consider to be avant-garde music? Please cite some examples so we can better understand where you re coming from. For me
              Message 6 of 24 , Oct 29, 2005
                > I own a fair number of Cuneiform releases and I don't think any of
                > them are in an Avant-Garde vein and I'm not aware many that are(?) so
                > hence my original question to Steve F and as a small (tongue in cheek)
                > plea to people posting future recommendations could I have an
                > Avant-Garde beware warning smiley at the end of each review?
                >
                > Steve D

                Steve D -

                What would you consider to be avant-garde music? Please cite some examples
                so we can better understand where you're coming from.

                For me personally, I tend to think the main component in music that is
                considered avant-garde would be the emphasis on a more challenging harmonic
                structure (i.e. at least some dissonance, atonality, tonal ambiguity, etc).
                Rhythm to my ears plays some role, as well as a more complex form, but
                harmony is the clincher. That is just me - YMMV.

                I have no problem including most Cuneiform releases in my view of
                avant-garde or avant-progressive. I listened to 1313 this morning and it
                contains a great deal of challenging harmonies, melodies, rhythms to my
                ears. Beautiful music, BTW. As far as the "progressive" in the words
                avant-progressive, well it fits since the discussion on this list is
                predominately is a more rock-based format versus modern classical and/or
                electro-acoustic vein, although there is certainly discussion of those
                genres here as well. And the progressive debate is on par with evolution.

                Ultimately it's all just music. So who really cares in the end?

                I'm going to have some coffee now.

                Frankie
              • Michael Anton Parker
                [SteveD] I m interested in why you picked the word Avant-Progressive as the name of this Yahoo Group and if the list members are the ones you were aiming for
                Message 7 of 24 , Oct 29, 2005
                  [SteveD] I'm interested in why you picked the word "Avant-Progressive" as
                  the name of this Yahoo Group and if the list members are the ones you were
                  aiming for in the first place? Do the two sit easily together on the same
                  Yahoo Group?

                  [MAP] Saying "the two" shows a misunderstanding. "avant-progressive" is not
                  two non-overlapping things that could sit together, easily or otherwise;
                  it's one thing. It's the widely used name for the genre of music in which an
                  avant-garde approach is taken to music related to progressive (rock) music,
                  usually shortened as "prog" to avoid confusion with the ordinary English
                  word "progressive".


                  [SteveD] Personally, listening to Avant-Garde is a massive leap of faith
                  from listening to Progressive and I would guess it is appreciated by a
                  minority of list members? (no problems with that by the way!) I don't
                  really "get off" on Avant Garde as I really struggle without some form of
                  rhythm within the music. Off the top of my head, from my own listening
                  pleasures, Tangerine Dream "Zeit", Art Zoyd, Patricia Dallio
                  are about as "Rhythmless" on occasions as I get but I don't really consider
                  them Avant-Garde. (should I?)
                  [MAP] "Avant-garde" is not the same type of category as "Progressive", and
                  as the existence of the music taken as this group's focus demonstrates, the
                  two categories overlap. Progressive (again, I prefer to say "Prog") is a
                  loose style of music, whereas avant-garde music cuts across all possible
                  styles of music and resists any kind of generalizations.
                  When you say "...massive leap of faith..." I'm not sure how or why there
                  would be any connection between these two things? I'm totally puzzled by
                  this statement, but I guess it reflects your misunderstanding about the
                  terms "avant-progressive" and "avant-garde".
                  Your remark implies that no rhythm exists in any example of avant-garde
                  music. As it were, there is very little music of any persuasion, avant-garde
                  or traditional, without some form of rhythm. Perhaps you mean certain
                  special types of rhythm, like groove, pulse, repetition, etc. However, you
                  can easily find avant-garde examples of music with these types of rhythms. A
                  perfect example is the music on the Clicks 'n' Cuts compilations and related
                  music using very repetitive rhythms in a very experimental and innovative
                  way.

                  [SteveD] I'm sure many of us read this list for recommendations. I recently
                  made a few purchases down the Biota route after reading some interesting
                  postings on them and on first listening found them a leap to far for my own
                  tastes. I know from experience that things like this grow on you but this
                  posting is not so about much whether they are Avant-Garde or not but about
                  avoiding recommendations in the future that are not up my alley.
                  [MAP] Biota is a good example of music that is not avant-prog, but which
                  has rich sociological and aesthetic connections to avant-prog. For those
                  reasons, it's a familiar topic for many of us. Probably at least 30% of the
                  music that's been discussed on this group is not avant-prog, but arises
                  naturally in this context due to the broad tastes of the members and some
                  vague sense of aesthetic relationships between diverse music. For example,
                  20th century academic notated music, avant-jazz, and 60s psych are three
                  areas of music that commonly feature in our discussions because a
                  significant percentage of members share an interest in them and find the
                  boundaries between avant-prog and other things very fluid.
                  I would recommend interpreting recommendations based on specific
                  descriptions of musical content. Though the Biota threads aren't fresh in my
                  memory, I suspect there were ample indications of the challenging and
                  unusual nature of the music. (By the way, I love Biota, but they're not
                  anywhere near the high end of my list of favorite music. I prefer more poppy
                  and groovy music (e.g. Byrds, Return to Forever) on one hand, or more
                  radical music (e.g. Nmperign, Dumitrescu) on the other hand.)
                  [SteveD] I own a fair number of Cuneiform releases and I don't think any of
                  them are in an Avant-Garde vein and I'm not aware many that are(?) so hence
                  my original question to Steve F and as a small (tongue in cheek)
                  plea to people posting future recommendations could I have an Avant-Garde
                  beware warning smiley at the end of each review?
                  [MAP] This goes back again to your idiosyncratic usage of the term
                  "avant-garde", but from my perspective a very large portion (maybe about
                  half) of the Cuneiform catalog is avant-garde. Needless to say, this is a
                  very vague term in the first place! In fact, its vagueness is especially
                  relevant here, because the music released on Cuneiform often blurs the
                  boundaries between traditional and experimental approaches to rock and other
                  styles.
                  Also, keep in mind that "avant-garde" can be taken as either an historical
                  characterization (Soft Machine and Beethoven were unquestionably avant-garde
                  music in their respective day) or in terms of current aesthetics (some
                  people may not consider Soft Machine or Beethoven avant-garde in 2005;
                  opinions differ, though obviously Beethoven is no longer avant-garde). It
                  always helps to compare things to folk/pop music. I recommend keeping some
                  Indian classical, klezmer and Partridge Family records on hand at all times,
                  both for the great pleasure they give and the unambiguous examples of
                  folk/pop aesthetics they offer.
                  Resolutely and unquestionably avant-garde music on Cuneiform would include
                  Dr. Nerve, Mujician, Kombinat M, Rich Woodson's Ellipsis, Larval, The Stick
                  Men, The Eyesores, and many others.
                  Hmm, avant-garde warning smileys, now there's a top ten bad idea candidate!
                  Better for people to put meaningful content into their remarks on music and
                  for others to read them with corresponding care. Nobody will agree on the
                  boundaries of "avant-garde", and the traditional/avant-garde dialectic plays
                  out differently for different people with different roots. For example, I'm
                  a big free jazz fan, and when I listen to something like Albert Ayler it
                  feels old-fashioned and traditional, whereas for many people his music is
                  very challenging and even unpleasant.
                  Mike Parker
                  SE Pennsylvania
                  np: Broadcast _Work and Non-Work_
                  Die ganzen Zahlen hat der liebe Gott gemacht, alles andere ist
                  Menschenwerk. (Leopold Kronecker)


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Ellerbee, Jason
                  ... Bingo. -- Jason Ellerbee - jeller@unf.edu DREAMS WIDE AWAKE radio show - http://www.DreamsWideAwake.tk/
                  Message 8 of 24 , Oct 29, 2005
                    On Sat, 29 Oct 2005, Frank Camiola wrote:
                    > Ultimately it's all just music. So who really cares in the end?

                    Bingo.

                    --
                    Jason Ellerbee - jeller@...
                    DREAMS WIDE AWAKE radio show - http://www.DreamsWideAwake.tk/
                  • Michael Anton Parker
                    [Frankie] For me personally, I tend to think the main component in music that is considered avant-garde would be the emphasis on a more challenging harmonic
                    Message 9 of 24 , Oct 29, 2005
                      [Frankie] For me personally, I tend to think the main component in
                      music that is considered avant-garde would be the emphasis on a more
                      challenging harmonic structure (i.e. at least some dissonance,
                      atonality, tonalambiguity, etc). Rhythm to my ears plays some role, as
                      well as a more complex form, but harmony is the clincher. That is just
                      me - YMMV.

                      [MAP] Just to point out that harmony (at least in the common sense of
                      vertical pitch structure) is not only non-existent or incidental in
                      99+% of the music made in human history, but at least as rare in
                      avant-garde music. Quite generally, any kind of pitch relationships
                      (melody, harmony) have been rejected or radically backgrounded by the
                      majority of avant-garde artists as a parametrical concern. A great
                      deal of current avant-garde music is in fact *unpitched*.

                      -------------------------------

                      [Frankie] Ultimately it's all just music. So who really cares in the end?

                      [MAP, raises hand] I care. Well, I'm not really sure when/where the
                      end is though! :-)

                      ---------------------------------

                      Steve D, I should've mentioned this in my previous post, but perhaps
                      it's helpful to observe that "avant-prog(ressive)" is entirely
                      parallel to other terms (many in common usage) like "avant-jazz",
                      "avant-rock", "avant-folk", "avant-pop", "avant-punk", "avant-shred",
                      "avant-fusion", "avant-classical", etc, and should be taken in the
                      same way.

                      Mike Parker
                      SE Pennsylvania

                      np: Broadcast _Work and Non-Work_

                      Die ganzen Zahlen hat der liebe Gott gemacht, alles andere ist
                      Menschenwerk. (Leopold Kronecker)
                    • CuneiWay@aol.com
                      ... ugh. Prog is a term invented by people who hated progressive rock to use as a perjoritive. You are too young to know that, but I am not and neither is
                      Message 10 of 24 , Oct 30, 2005
                        >>(again, I prefer to say "Prog")<<

                        ugh. Prog is a term invented by people who hated progressive rock to
                        use as a perjoritive. You are too young to know that, but I am not and
                        neither is anyone else in their 40's,.Progressive rock was never called
                        prog while it was happening in the 70's.

                        Now, I guess (MAYBE) it's the same as African American's calling each
                        other by the 'n' word, or gay people referring to themselves as
                        Faggots. MAYBE. But Istill think it is an UGLY terms and I personally
                        never use it about music I like and I always find it amusing that the
                        form of music that IS generally refered to as 'prog', is the stuff I
                        generally never like in any way.

                        So, please please don't refer to Cuneiform releases as prog or even
                        THINK that way where I can hear you; you'll make me a very sad man.

                        I mean, it pains me enough to be lumped in with progressive rock, as it
                        is understood today, which is why I am making such an effort to get
                        away from it as much as possible while still being involved in the
                        aspects of 'rehearsal intensive music' that I generally like (Alec K.
                        Redfearn, Ahleuchatistas, Zaar, blah blah blah)

                        Steve (in CT for a wedding)
                      • Michael Anton Parker
                        [SteveF] ugh. Prog is a term invented by people who hated progressive rock to use as a perjoritive. You are too young to know that, but I am not and neither is
                        Message 11 of 24 , Oct 30, 2005
                          [SteveF] ugh. Prog is a term invented by people who hated progressive rock to
                          use as a perjoritive. You are too young to know that, but I am not and
                          neither is anyone else in their 40's,.Progressive rock was never called
                          prog while it was happening in the 70's.

                          Now, I guess (MAYBE) it's the same as African American's calling each
                          other by the 'n' word, or gay people referring to themselves as
                          Faggots. MAYBE. But Istill think it is an UGLY terms and I personally
                          never use it about music I like and I always find it amusing that the
                          form of music that IS generally refered to as 'prog', is the stuff I
                          generally never like in any way.

                          [MAP] !!!! Wow. This is the first time in my 15 years of being a prog
                          fan that I've heard this linguistic opinion expressed! Honestly, I'm
                          flabberglasted that "prog" could be taken as anything more than a
                          convenient, nicer-sounding shorthand for "progressive rock". We
                          should do a poll on one of the prog groups about this; I think I
                          joined one once but have never looked in that email folder, so I'll
                          check it out.

                          In any case, I think my experience (as a 29-year old) confirms your
                          linguistic hypothesis. The linguistic data for people in your age
                          bracket remains to be seen. The notion of a generation gap in
                          terminology is surprising to me, though, because when I was a teenager
                          I avidly immersed myself in the same discourse community as the older
                          generations by reading Gilbraltar, Expose, I/E, Audion, etc.

                          In the end, what you're saying makes a lot of sense from a
                          hypothetical diachronic perspective. Back in the day, non-fans of
                          what was called "progressive rock" probably resented the
                          pretentiousness of the term and preferred "prog" as a way to reduce
                          confusions between the two different meanings of "progressive". Fans
                          of the music were probably still clinging on the delusion that the
                          general meaning was still relevant and active in their usage, hence
                          resisting "prog" as a pejorative. A generation or two later, "prog"
                          was so widespread (due to a high-level of discourse activity among
                          non-fans of prog) that new prog fans simply accepted it as a common
                          shorthand. And then you find people like me who are dyed-in-the-wool
                          prog fans and actually strongly prefer "prog" over "progressive" for
                          the same reasons the non-fans originally did! I actually refuse to
                          use the word "progressive" with this meaning because I think "prog" is
                          such a better alternative in its elimination of potential confusion
                          and pretension. I speak as someone with boundless enthusiasm for the
                          early prog staples like Yes, Genesis, ELP, King Crimson, Gentle Giant,
                          Focus, etc.

                          It always strikes me that Bruce at Downtown consistently says and
                          writes "progressive" instead of "prog". It's practically the only
                          time I ever hear that word! Maybe he's coming from the same angle as
                          you, Steve, since you guys are about the same age. Of course, the
                          funny thing about Bruce's usage is that he uses for a very very broad
                          range of music, including stuff that very few other people call
                          "progressive" or "prog"! I like that style, just like he uses "pop"
                          in the *broadest* possible sense (so do I), because it's based on a
                          very expansive and inclusive worldview in which avant-garde music in
                          various forms (improv, jazz, academic) is the main focus.

                          --------------------------

                          [SteveF] So, please please don't refer to Cuneiform releases as prog
                          or even THINK that way where I can hear you; you'll make me a very sad
                          man.

                          [MAP] Well, I'm personally somewhat comfortable with the terms "prog"
                          and "avant-prog", the latter which I don't hesitate to use in
                          description to a sizeable chunk of Cuneiform releases. I find that
                          both terms are clear enough to be used in many contexts. However,
                          these contexts tend to be journalistic, chatty, or blurby, whereas if
                          I were to write serious commentary (like the stuff I write for
                          Bagatellen) about avant-prog (something I haven't really done yet with
                          maybe an exception or two, but I'm feeling strongly pulled towards
                          these days) I would never use these terms, instead seeking to get
                          below the surface and talk about the music in a more detailed way.

                          On the other hand, my discomfort with the term "prog"/"progressive
                          rock" has been steadily growing for a while and I think I'd like to
                          phase it (and its derivatives like "avant-prog") out eventually. My
                          reasons are perhaps slightly original, or at least less common than
                          the normal objection to the term. The normal objection is, of course,
                          that what's called "progressive" is not actually progressive in the
                          general sense of the word. Countless naive and pointless words have
                          been written about this topic on internet forums, and I dearly hope
                          nobody will be triggered by this paragraph to continue that tradition
                          here; I only mention this to clarify the nature of my objections by
                          way of contrast. In fact, I disagree with this standard objection to
                          "progressive" on the simple grounds that it's linguistically naive and
                          fails to accept the flexibility of language in its allowance of
                          multiple meanings for "the same word", including some (e.g.
                          "progressive", "fusion", etc) that become narrowly fixed and
                          specialized in a certain context and become independent of the general
                          common meaning. This is just the normal behavior of language.

                          My objection is simply that the music lumped together under the term
                          "prog"/"progressive rock" is so diverse and arbitrary that it becomes
                          musicologically vacuous. As for diversity, it's vastly better to use
                          terms that deal with the distinctive musical aspects that characterize
                          a style, like "symphonic rock", "hybrid of pre-20th century European
                          academic music and rock", "jazz-rock", "chamber rock", "free rock",
                          "space rock", "theatrical rock", "operatic rock", "post-Beefheart
                          rock", "Eastern European folk-rock", "UK folk-rock", etc, instead of
                          using an umbrella term like "prog"/"progressive rock" that captures no
                          shared qualities among such diverse musics.

                          As for the arbitrariness, more and more I'm come to recognize that
                          nearly all good rock music is progressive (in the general sense) in
                          some way, and that a somewhat arbitrary handful of essentially
                          unrelated rock styles were given that designation for historical
                          reasons. It's very difficult to think of examples of
                          *non-progressive* rock music, a sure indication that the term is
                          vacuous. Pick an example of *good* rock music that is widely
                          considered or perhaps just considered by you to not fall under the
                          "progressive" category, and I bet I can make an argument for why that
                          music is as progressive, innovative, creative, etc as some reference
                          prog band of similar quality. The Beach Boys, The Byrds, The Beatles,
                          The Velvet Underground, Blue Cheer, Mountain, James Gang, Grand Funk
                          Railroad, Boston, The Ramones, The Police, The Dead Kennedys, The
                          Pixies, Nirvana, ad inf: these bands were all as progressive and
                          innovative as most prog bands, but just in different ways. Since prog
                          bands themselves were in fact progressive and innovative in very
                          different ways too, the distinction is arbitrary.

                          So you can see my objection is kind of the inverse of the standard one.

                          I think each generation has a responsibility to refine or reinvent
                          their conceptualizations of music and the attendant terminology they
                          use, so instead of uncritically accepting a term like
                          "prog"/"progressive rock" we can deconstruct it and find more
                          musicologically meaningful alternatives. Terminology is never etched
                          in stone.

                          -----------------------

                          [SteveF] I mean, it pains me enough to be lumped in with progressive
                          rock, as it is understood today, which is why I am making such an
                          effort to get away from it as much as possible while still being
                          involved in the aspects of 'rehearsal intensive music' that I
                          generally like (Alec K. Redfearn, Ahleuchatistas, Zaar, blah blah
                          blah)

                          [MAP] I'm a huge fan of your term "rehearsal intensive music [rock]"!
                          I've tried to use it as often as possible. I feel this a perfect
                          example of a musicologically meaningful term we can use as creative,
                          critical thinkers instead of blithely accepting older terminological
                          conventions. It captures an essential feature of the music in a
                          compact way and bypasses the baggage of previous terminological
                          conventions, much like my other highly favored recent terms like
                          "lowercase", "post-jazz", "post-Bach" (a replacement for most uses of
                          "classical"), "geo-traditional" (a replacement for "world" and
                          "ethnic"), etc. It comes out from a different angle and says
                          something useful, while still being concise. In fact, I like this
                          term so much it factors into a much larger conceptual issue I've been
                          dealing with for years, the classic "improvisation" vs "composition"
                          dilemma. I'm personally trying to eliminate the word "composition"
                          from most of the contexts in which it's used. My alternative is to
                          refer to the three different common methods of composition:
                          improvisation, rehearsal, and notation. So instead of simplistic and
                          vague distinctions, we get fine-grained distinctions, and I think we
                          can refine our terminology much further than this, but this is at
                          least a big leap in the right direction in my view. My trichotomy
                          fails to address the method of directly manipulating recordings with
                          computers, etc, but I haven't worked on this problem in any serious
                          way yet. In fact, this matter has only crystallized in my thoughts
                          within the past year, so it's in a raw state.

                          I think "rehearsal intensive" is also a nice narrowing of
                          "rehearsal-based" (a term I've also adopted as a variation)
                          appropriate to some prototypical Cuneiform music, because it captures
                          the fact the music is more difficult and demanding in its construction
                          than most rock music.

                          Mike Parker
                          SE Pennsylvania

                          np: Polwechsel 2

                          Die ganzen Zahlen hat der liebe Gott gemacht, alles andere ist
                          Menschenwerk. (Leopold Kronecker)
                        • Pierre Tassone
                          Hi, Without the help of Renato in Brazil, you would probably never have seen this CD on Wayside s catalog so HE is the guy to thank in first place. Enjoy,
                          Message 12 of 24 , Oct 30, 2005
                            Hi,

                            Without the help of Renato in Brazil, you would probably never have seen
                            this CD on Wayside's catalog so HE is the guy to thank in first place.
                            Enjoy,

                            Pierre


                            -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                            Fra: avant-progressive@yahoogroups.com
                            [mailto:avant-progressive@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af fiveknuckle147
                            Sendt: 28. oktober 2005 22:43
                            Til: avant-progressive@yahoogroups.com
                            Emne: [avant-progressive] Avant or Progressive?


                            Currently nailed into my CD player - Fabio Mentz Quarteto - Cantigas.
                            Wow! What a CD! Thank you Wayside (and whoever reviewed it), is there
                            any more from him or anything in a very similar vein? It is simply
                            addictive (Avant-Garde free CD)






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                          • CuneiWay@aol.com
                            Hello Mike ... terminology is surprising to me, though, because when I was a teenager I avidly immersed myself in the same discourse community as the older
                            Message 13 of 24 , Oct 30, 2005
                              Hello Mike

                              >>The notion of a generation gap in
                              terminology is surprising to me, though, because when I was a teenager
                              I avidly immersed myself in the same discourse community as the older
                              generations by reading Gilbraltar, Expose, I/E, Audion, etc.<<

                              Every one of these that you have mentioned - with the POSSIBLE
                              exception of Audion, but I don't think so - emerged in the 80's or even
                              the 90's, i.e. after progressive rock was 'over' as a mainstream
                              creative force and when progressive rock was at its lowest regard in
                              the world and when the nasty term "PROG" had already emerged.

                              There really WEREN'T specialized magazines at the time; there didn't
                              HAVE to be - while information was difficult to come by, this music was
                              covered in the REGULAR rock magazines! So, if you are talking about
                              specialty magazines, you are already too late in the timeline...The
                              ONLY exception that I can think of was Eurock, which was published
                              infrequently and was more a fanzine than a 'magazine'. Other thyan
                              that, if you wanted to read about Matching Mole or Henry Cow, you read
                              Sounds or NME or Melody Maker! Or Trouser Press, who covered them along
                              with the newalbum by The Who, or whatever!!

                              I dunno; 'prog' always sounded to me like something your mother caught
                              you doing when she walked in on you in your room when she didn't knock
                              first....If you like it as a word, then that's ok,, but I don't think
                              that anyone who was there at the time likes it. (I could be wrong about
                              this, of course). But I SURE don't.

                              >>It always strikes me that Bruce at Downtown consistently says and
                              writes "progressive" instead of "prog".<<

                              Bruce is old enough to know better :-)


                              Steve
                            • Renato Moraes
                              Hi Steve D, I exchanged some e-mails with Fabio. He has no plans for a next CD so soon. They are trying/thinking to re-release this one as it is sold out. If
                              Message 14 of 24 , Nov 1, 2005
                                Hi Steve D,

                                I exchanged some e-mails with Fabio. He has no plans for a next CD so soon. They are trying/thinking to re-release this one as it is sold out. If you have a copy keep it.

                                Similar music...... well not that similar, but if you like brazilian rhythms, I would try Hermeto Pascoal, Egberto Gismonti, Armazem (now renamed as Armazem Abapuru), Pe ante Pe. Check Wayside catalog, I am sure you will find some of them. I would go 1st for Hermeto Pascoal and Armazem, if Steve still has some of them, he has out of print stuff, because in Brasil some of these titles are over.

                                Check Music by Mail catalog as well. Pierre ahs the most impressive session of brazilian music outside of Brasil (that I am aware). Try pau brasil. Pierre has some only available in Europe. La vem a Tribo is incredible, as well as Metropole Tropical. Their best 2 CDs, only available in Europe.

                                Renato

                                fiveknuckle147 <mekanik8@...> wrote:


                                Currently nailed into my CD player - Fabio Mentz Quarteto - Cantigas.
                                Wow! What a CD! Thank you Wayside (and whoever reviewed it), is there
                                any more from him or anything in a very similar vein? It is simply
                                addictive (Avant-Garde free CD)





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