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Re: [Autismlist] Why vaccinations are harmful

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  • Tom Smith
    Hi Margaret, We re really not into the whole vaccine and bio-medical thing here, well at least I m not. It also conflicts with some of the things we are into,
    Message 1 of 6 , Aug 1 3:26 PM
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      Hi Margaret,

      We're really not into the whole vaccine and bio-medical thing here,
      well at least I'm not. It also conflicts with some of the things we
      are into, like a non disease model and assumption of ability. I know
      your advocacies are very powerful and popular in autism as well as
      having numerous forums that make this forum look backwoods, so there's
      no great need to push them here since they are well publicized and
      funded elsewhere.

      Our primary interest and priority for what we think is best for auties
      is communication and awareness of their sensory and perceptual
      differences. We in fact beleive auties should get together and find
      out what is wrong with us. It could be that auties were the only ones
      who escaped autoimmune problems and the rest of us are the way we are
      because of them. I don't know and frankly, from what I know, I don't
      think it's important and therefore don't care.

      I'm the owner of the list and try to keep it focused occasionally. I
      appreciate your trying to help and hope you will read here some of the
      other perspectives and suggestions about autism. Our view is actually
      more scientifcally supported than the other views, but runs into the
      age old problem of perceptual bias, prejudice and "flat earth"
      assumptions.

      Thank you for joining and participating.

      Tom

      --- Margaret Diann <mother_margaret@...> wrote:

      > I believe there are two primary reasons. Many people have too much
      > chemical exposures in their family line &/or directly ... it is like
      > the
      > 'one thing too much' and tips people into other illnesses/diseases.
      > Even Autism ... AND because many of us these days have some
      > autoimmune
      > issues going on. Vaccinations pre-suppose that we have a normal
      > working
      > Immune system. That is not so true these days as it was 100 years
      > ago.
      > Vaccinations
      > <http://groups.msn.com/Avoid2-BEforHealth-MM/vaccinations.msnw> My
      > own
      > discussion thread on this topic
      > 'Nearly all polio outbreaks since 1961 were caused by the oral polio
      > vaccine,'
      > -Jonas Salk, inventor of the IPV, testifying before a Senate
      > subcommittee
      >
      > Informed Choice <http://www.informedchoice.info/polio.html>
      >
      > (Doesn't the whole idea of shots rely on normal immune systems ...
      > not
      > autoimmune immune systems?)
      >
      > I think the reason this might be ... is that many in our population
      > since WWII & before ... back to all major warsss ... have some aspect
      > of
      > their immune system that is autoimmune. So, if one's immune system
      > has
      > gone autoimmune, then it is ignoring the virus & the bacteria ... and
      > they go unchecked.
      >
      > That's my theory, anyway, on why people get the illness they are
      > trying
      > to be protected from.
      >
      > I think that we are harming our children (who knows about the old
      > folks)
      > when we give them flu shots. And that it is a waste of time to
      > develop
      > the flu shot for 'bird flu' ... which is nothing more than a chemical
      > poisoning in which the immune system becomes autoimmune.
      > Many soldiers would be better off without some of the shots they are
      > compelled to take, too Soldiers from major war periods may have
      > more
      > in common that we realize
      > http://www.valdezlink.com/pages/thosewithcfids.htm
      > <http://www.valdezlink.com/pages/thosewithcfids.htm>
      >


      __________________________________________________
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    • Brian Henson
      Yes, Tom, there is no reason to find the cause of why people like myself and others on the autistic spectrum behave the way we do. There are thousands of
      Message 2 of 6 , Aug 2 3:03 AM
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        Yes, Tom, there is no reason to find the "cause" of why people like
        myself and others on the autistic spectrum behave the way we do.

        There are thousands of theories, but these theories are treated as
        they are far, far more important than the individuals, themselves.

        What would be the response if all behaviors could be given
        a "cause", from the behavior of a sports fan (in shouting "yea!"
        when his team wins) ...to the behavior of a republican in the U.S.
        (who supports the Bush administration), ...to the behavior of a
        stock trader on Wall Street (who is more concerned with the decline
        of a few stocks than with his own health), ...to the behavior of a
        lesbian (who is interested in promoting gay rights over other
        issues), ...to the behavior of an aboriginal person on a reserve in
        the U.S. (who feels that all of the U.S. is still, in reality,
        aboriginal land), ...to a tourist in Fiji (who travels there every
        year to get away from the problems at home)....?

        Perhaps every thing that each one of us does has, indeed, a "cause",
        and therefore, according to this model, each "cause" needs a "cure",
        and even those who search for a "cause" in human behaviour need as
        much "treatment" (if not more so) than the rest of us who are
        willing to accept life the way it is with respect and dignity.

        We were no born to judge the behavior of others any more than our
        own behavior is here to be judged by others, and any search for
        a "cause" only shows disrespect for those with a certain behavior...
        including those with any hint of "autism" in their lives.

        It's just a case of a person with any type of behavior seeking help
        in adapting that behavior to those around that person, and helping
        that person and the others around him/her to be just as adapting to
        each other on both sides of the "issues" involved in the behavior,
        not matter how common or how rare such a behavior might be seen by
        others.

        It's a matter of personal volition on what help is needed, and not a
        matter of some "judge" to "dictate" what a person must undergo
        (based on some "cause" that is still in dispute, as most
        all "causes" of human nature will always be... even to the "cause"
        of why many people deem autism to be a "disease", but are not
        willing to treat all the examples of behavior, above, as "diseases"
        as well).

        When a person joins a few others in supporting a football team, it's
        not the "cause" of this behavior that is the issue; rather, it's the
        result of this behavior on the other aspects of the person's life
        that might be in need of response, based, again, on that person's
        own issues and how this behavior might or might not be pulling at
        other parts of the person's own integrity. Finding the "cause" of
        why that person joined in supporting that football team does nothing
        for that person, and, as you stated, Tom, "I don't think it's
        important and therefore I don't care."

        When a person behaves autisticly, the "cause" of that behavior is
        not important--just the understanding of the communicative and
        sensory differences that that person has, and what impact these
        differences have on that person's ability to integrate into the
        lives of others around that person, both short-term and long-term.

        *

        --- In autismlist@yahoogroups.com, Tom Smith <qim@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Margaret,
        >
        > We're really not into the whole vaccine and bio-medical thing here,
        > well at least I'm not. It also conflicts with some of the things
        we
        > are into, like a non disease model and assumption of ability. I
        know
        > your advocacies are very powerful and popular in autism as well as
        > having numerous forums that make this forum look backwoods, so
        there's
        > no great need to push them here since they are well publicized and
        > funded elsewhere.
        >
        > Our primary interest and priority for what we think is best for
        auties
        > is communication and awareness of their sensory and perceptual
        > differences. We in fact beleive auties should get together and
        find
        > out what is wrong with us. It could be that auties were the only
        ones
        > who escaped autoimmune problems and the rest of us are the way we
        are
        > because of them. I don't know and frankly, from what I know, I
        don't
        > think it's important and therefore don't care.
        >
        > I'm the owner of the list and try to keep it focused
        occasionally. I
        > appreciate your trying to help and hope you will read here some of
        the
        > other perspectives and suggestions about autism. Our view is
        actually
        > more scientifcally supported than the other views, but runs into
        the
        > age old problem of perceptual bias, prejudice and "flat earth"
        > assumptions.
        >
        > Thank you for joining and participating.
        >
        > Tom
        >
        > --- Margaret Diann <mother_margaret@...> wrote:
        >
        > > I believe there are two primary reasons. Many people have too
        much
        > > chemical exposures in their family line &/or directly ... it is
        like
        > > the
        > > 'one thing too much' and tips people into other
        illnesses/diseases.
        > > Even Autism ... AND because many of us these days have some
        > > autoimmune
        > > issues going on. Vaccinations pre-suppose that we have a normal
        > > working
        > > Immune system. That is not so true these days as it was 100
        years
        > > ago.
        > > Vaccinations
        > > <http://groups.msn.com/Avoid2-BEforHealth-
        MM/vaccinations.msnw> My
        > > own
        > > discussion thread on this topic
        > > 'Nearly all polio outbreaks since 1961 were caused by the oral
        polio
        > > vaccine,'
        > > -Jonas Salk, inventor of the IPV, testifying before a Senate
        > > subcommittee
        > >
        > > Informed Choice <http://www.informedchoice.info/polio.html>
        > >
        > > (Doesn't the whole idea of shots rely on normal immune
        systems ...
        > > not
        > > autoimmune immune systems?)
        > >
        > > I think the reason this might be ... is that many in our
        population
        > > since WWII & before ... back to all major warsss ... have some
        aspect
        > > of
        > > their immune system that is autoimmune. So, if one's immune
        system
        > > has
        > > gone autoimmune, then it is ignoring the virus & the
        bacteria ... and
        > > they go unchecked.
        > >
        > > That's my theory, anyway, on why people get the illness they are
        > > trying
        > > to be protected from.
        > >
        > > I think that we are harming our children (who knows about the old
        > > folks)
        > > when we give them flu shots. And that it is a waste of time to
        > > develop
        > > the flu shot for 'bird flu' ... which is nothing more than a
        chemical
        > > poisoning in which the immune system becomes autoimmune.
        > > Many soldiers would be better off without some of the shots they
        are
        > > compelled to take, too Soldiers from major war periods may have
        > > more
        > > in common that we realize
        > > http://www.valdezlink.com/pages/thosewithcfids.htm
        > > <http://www.valdezlink.com/pages/thosewithcfids.htm>
        > >
        >
        >
        > __________________________________________________
        > Do You Yahoo!?
        > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
        > http://mail.yahoo.com
        >
      • Tom Smith
        Hear, hear Brian. Once we finally started taking care of our auties basic human needs that were being ignored in favor of behavoral training, ie communication
        Message 3 of 6 , Aug 2 5:33 PM
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          Hear, hear Brian. Once we finally started taking care of our auties
          basic human needs that were being ignored in favor of behavoral
          training, ie communication and "choice and control", then one could
          relax and enjoy their differences without caring "why". They were the
          best people just to be around.

          Tom

          --- Brian Henson <bhenson@...> wrote:

          > Yes, Tom, there is no reason to find the "cause" of why people like
          > myself and others on the autistic spectrum behave the way we do.
          >
          > There are thousands of theories, but these theories are treated as
          > they are far, far more important than the individuals, themselves.
          >
          > What would be the response if all behaviors could be given
          > a "cause", from the behavior of a sports fan (in shouting "yea!"
          > when his team wins) ...to the behavior of a republican in the U.S.
          > (who supports the Bush administration), ...to the behavior of a
          > stock trader on Wall Street (who is more concerned with the decline
          > of a few stocks than with his own health), ...to the behavior of a
          > lesbian (who is interested in promoting gay rights over other
          > issues), ...to the behavior of an aboriginal person on a reserve in
          > the U.S. (who feels that all of the U.S. is still, in reality,
          > aboriginal land), ...to a tourist in Fiji (who travels there every
          > year to get away from the problems at home)....?
          >
          > Perhaps every thing that each one of us does has, indeed, a "cause",
          > and therefore, according to this model, each "cause" needs a "cure",
          > and even those who search for a "cause" in human behaviour need as
          > much "treatment" (if not more so) than the rest of us who are
          > willing to accept life the way it is with respect and dignity.
          >
          > We were no born to judge the behavior of others any more than our
          > own behavior is here to be judged by others, and any search for
          > a "cause" only shows disrespect for those with a certain behavior...
          > including those with any hint of "autism" in their lives.
          >
          > It's just a case of a person with any type of behavior seeking help
          > in adapting that behavior to those around that person, and helping
          > that person and the others around him/her to be just as adapting to
          > each other on both sides of the "issues" involved in the behavior,
          > not matter how common or how rare such a behavior might be seen by
          > others.
          >
          > It's a matter of personal volition on what help is needed, and not a
          > matter of some "judge" to "dictate" what a person must undergo
          > (based on some "cause" that is still in dispute, as most
          > all "causes" of human nature will always be... even to the "cause"
          > of why many people deem autism to be a "disease", but are not
          > willing to treat all the examples of behavior, above, as "diseases"
          > as well).
          >
          > When a person joins a few others in supporting a football team, it's
          > not the "cause" of this behavior that is the issue; rather, it's the
          > result of this behavior on the other aspects of the person's life
          > that might be in need of response, based, again, on that person's
          > own issues and how this behavior might or might not be pulling at
          > other parts of the person's own integrity. Finding the "cause" of
          > why that person joined in supporting that football team does nothing
          > for that person, and, as you stated, Tom, "I don't think it's
          > important and therefore I don't care."
          >
          > When a person behaves autisticly, the "cause" of that behavior is
          > not important--just the understanding of the communicative and
          > sensory differences that that person has, and what impact these
          > differences have on that person's ability to integrate into the
          > lives of others around that person, both short-term and long-term.
          >
          > *
          >
          > --- In autismlist@yahoogroups.com, Tom Smith <qim@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi Margaret,
          > >
          > > We're really not into the whole vaccine and bio-medical thing here,
          > > well at least I'm not. It also conflicts with some of the things
          > we
          > > are into, like a non disease model and assumption of ability. I
          > know
          > > your advocacies are very powerful and popular in autism as well as
          > > having numerous forums that make this forum look backwoods, so
          > there's
          > > no great need to push them here since they are well publicized and
          > > funded elsewhere.
          > >
          > > Our primary interest and priority for what we think is best for
          > auties
          > > is communication and awareness of their sensory and perceptual
          > > differences. We in fact beleive auties should get together and
          > find
          > > out what is wrong with us. It could be that auties were the only
          > ones
          > > who escaped autoimmune problems and the rest of us are the way we
          > are
          > > because of them. I don't know and frankly, from what I know, I
          > don't
          > > think it's important and therefore don't care.
          > >
          > > I'm the owner of the list and try to keep it focused
          > occasionally. I
          > > appreciate your trying to help and hope you will read here some of
          > the
          > > other perspectives and suggestions about autism. Our view is
          > actually
          > > more scientifcally supported than the other views, but runs into
          > the
          > > age old problem of perceptual bias, prejudice and "flat earth"
          > > assumptions.
          > >
          > > Thank you for joining and participating.
          > >
          > > Tom
          > >
          > > --- Margaret Diann <mother_margaret@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > > I believe there are two primary reasons. Many people have too
          > much
          > > > chemical exposures in their family line &/or directly ... it is
          > like
          > > > the
          > > > 'one thing too much' and tips people into other
          > illnesses/diseases.
          > > > Even Autism ... AND because many of us these days have some
          > > > autoimmune
          > > > issues going on. Vaccinations pre-suppose that we have a normal
          > > > working
          > > > Immune system. That is not so true these days as it was 100
          > years
          > > > ago.
          > > > Vaccinations
          > > > <http://groups.msn.com/Avoid2-BEforHealth-
          > MM/vaccinations.msnw> My
          > > > own
          > > > discussion thread on this topic
          > > > 'Nearly all polio outbreaks since 1961 were caused by the oral
          > polio
          > > > vaccine,'
          > > > -Jonas Salk, inventor of the IPV, testifying before a Senate
          > > > subcommittee
          > > >
          > > > Informed Choice <http://www.informedchoice.info/polio.html>
          > > >
          > > > (Doesn't the whole idea of shots rely on normal immune
          > systems ...
          > > > not
          > > > autoimmune immune systems?)
          > > >
          > > > I think the reason this might be ... is that many in our
          > population
          > > > since WWII & before ... back to all major warsss ... have some
          > aspect
          > > > of
          > > > their immune system that is autoimmune. So, if one's immune
          > system
          > > > has
          > > > gone autoimmune, then it is ignoring the virus & the
          > bacteria ... and
          > > > they go unchecked.
          > > >
          > > > That's my theory, anyway, on why people get the illness they are
          > > > trying
          > > > to be protected from.
          > > >
          > > > I think that we are harming our children (who knows about the old
          > > > folks)
          > > > when we give them flu shots. And that it is a waste of time to
          > > > develop
          > > > the flu shot for 'bird flu' ... which is nothing more than a
          > chemical
          > > > poisoning in which the immune system becomes autoimmune.
          > > > Many soldiers would be better off without some of the shots they
          > are
          > > > compelled to take, too Soldiers from major war periods may have
          > > > more
          > > > in common that we realize
          > > > http://www.valdezlink.com/pages/thosewithcfids.htm
          > > > <http://www.valdezlink.com/pages/thosewithcfids.htm>
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > > __________________________________________________
          > > Do You Yahoo!?
          > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
          > > http://mail.yahoo.com
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >


          __________________________________________________
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
          http://mail.yahoo.com
        • Tink
          Just a quick note to thank you both for the much appreciated responses, particularly on communication, choice, control. Fine thoughts and writing. ! ~*~ Tink
          Message 4 of 6 , Aug 3 4:35 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            Just a quick note to thank you both for the much appreciated responses,
            particularly on communication, choice, control. Fine thoughts and writing.
            !
            ~*~ Tink

            -----Original Message-----
            From: autismlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:autismlist@yahoogroups.com]On
            Behalf Of Tom Smith
            Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 8:34 PM
            To: autismlist@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Autismlist] Re: Why searching for "causes" is harmful


            Hear, hear Brian. Once we finally started taking care of our auties
            basic human needs that were being ignored in favor of behavoral
            training, ie communication and "choice and control", then one could
            relax and enjoy their differences without caring "why". They were the
            best people just to be around.

            Tom

            --- Brian Henson <bhenson@...> wrote:

            > Yes, Tom, there is no reason to find the "cause" of why people like
            > myself and others on the autistic spectrum behave the way we do.
            >
            > There are thousands of theories, but these theories are treated as
            > they are far, far more important than the individuals, themselves.
            >
            > What would be the response if all behaviors could be given
            > a "cause", from the behavior of a sports fan (in shouting "yea!"
            > when his team wins) ...to the behavior of a republican in the U.S.
            > (who supports the Bush administration), ...to the behavior of a
            > stock trader on Wall Street (who is more concerned with the decline
            > of a few stocks than with his own health), ...to the behavior of a
            > lesbian (who is interested in promoting gay rights over other
            > issues), ...to the behavior of an aboriginal person on a reserve in
            > the U.S. (who feels that all of the U.S. is still, in reality,
            > aboriginal land), ...to a tourist in Fiji (who travels there every
            > year to get away from the problems at home)....?
            >
            > Perhaps every thing that each one of us does has, indeed, a "cause",
            > and therefore, according to this model, each "cause" needs a "cure",
            > and even those who search for a "cause" in human behaviour need as
            > much "treatment" (if not more so) than the rest of us who are
            > willing to accept life the way it is with respect and dignity.
            >
            > We were no born to judge the behavior of others any more than our
            > own behavior is here to be judged by others, and any search for
            > a "cause" only shows disrespect for those with a certain behavior...
            > including those with any hint of "autism" in their lives.
            >
            > It's just a case of a person with any type of behavior seeking help
            > in adapting that behavior to those around that person, and helping
            > that person and the others around him/her to be just as adapting to
            > each other on both sides of the "issues" involved in the behavior,
            > not matter how common or how rare such a behavior might be seen by
            > others.
            >
            > It's a matter of personal volition on what help is needed, and not a
            > matter of some "judge" to "dictate" what a person must undergo
            > (based on some "cause" that is still in dispute, as most
            > all "causes" of human nature will always be... even to the "cause"
            > of why many people deem autism to be a "disease", but are not
            > willing to treat all the examples of behavior, above, as "diseases"
            > as well).
            >
            > When a person joins a few others in supporting a football team, it's
            > not the "cause" of this behavior that is the issue; rather, it's the
            > result of this behavior on the other aspects of the person's life
            > that might be in need of response, based, again, on that person's
            > own issues and how this behavior might or might not be pulling at
            > other parts of the person's own integrity. Finding the "cause" of
            > why that person joined in supporting that football team does nothing
            > for that person, and, as you stated, Tom, "I don't think it's
            > important and therefore I don't care."
            >
            > When a person behaves autisticly, the "cause" of that behavior is
            > not important--just the understanding of the communicative and
            > sensory differences that that person has, and what impact these
            > differences have on that person's ability to integrate into the
            > lives of others around that person, both short-term and long-term.
            >
            > *
            >
            > --- In autismlist@yahoogroups.com, Tom Smith <qim@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi Margaret,
            > >
            > > We're really not into the whole vaccine and bio-medical thing here,
            > > well at least I'm not. It also conflicts with some of the things
            > we
            > > are into, like a non disease model and assumption of ability. I
            > know
            > > your advocacies are very powerful and popular in autism as well as
            > > having numerous forums that make this forum look backwoods, so
            > there's
            > > no great need to push them here since they are well publicized and
            > > funded elsewhere.
            > >
            > > Our primary interest and priority for what we think is best for
            > auties
            > > is communication and awareness of their sensory and perceptual
            > > differences. We in fact beleive auties should get together and
            > find
            > > out what is wrong with us. It could be that auties were the only
            > ones
            > > who escaped autoimmune problems and the rest of us are the way we
            > are
            > > because of them. I don't know and frankly, from what I know, I
            > don't
            > > think it's important and therefore don't care.
            > >
            > > I'm the owner of the list and try to keep it focused
            > occasionally. I
            > > appreciate your trying to help and hope you will read here some of
            > the
            > > other perspectives and suggestions about autism. Our view is
            > actually
            > > more scientifcally supported than the other views, but runs into
            > the
            > > age old problem of perceptual bias, prejudice and "flat earth"
            > > assumptions.
            > >
            > > Thank you for joining and participating.
            > >
            > > Tom
            > >
            > > --- Margaret Diann <mother_margaret@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > >
            > > > Informed Choice <http://www.informedchoice.info/polio.html>
            > > >
            > > > (Doesn't the whole idea of shots rely on normal immune
            > systems ...
            > > > not
            > > > autoimmune immune systems?)
            > > >
            > > > I think the reason this might be ... is that many in our
            > population
            > > > since WWII & before ... back to all major warsss ... have some
            > aspect
            > > > of
            > > > their immune system that is autoimmune. So, if one's immune
            > system
            > > > has
            > > > gone autoimmune, then it is ignoring the virus & the
            > bacteria ... and
            > > > they go unchecked.
            > > >
            > > > That's my theory, anyway, on why people get the illness they are
            > > > trying
            > > > to be protected from.
            > > >
            > > > I think that we are harming our children (who knows about the old
            > > > folks)
            > > > when we give them flu shots. And that it is a waste of time to
            > > > develop
            > > > the flu shot for 'bird flu' ... which is nothing more than a
            > chemical
            > > > poisoning in which the immune system becomes autoimmune.
            > > > Many soldiers would be better off without some of the shots they
            > are
            > > > compelled to take, too Soldiers from major war periods may have
            > > > more
            > > > in common that we realize
            > > > http://www.valdezlink.com/pages/thosewithcfids.htm
            > > > <http://www.valdezlink.com/pages/thosewithcfids.htm>
            >
            >
            >
            >
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