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14 year-old today in the United States being described as "noncommunicative

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  • Arthur Golden
    I just posted the following to the blog of neurologist Dr. Steven Novella at http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php?p=212 [with permission for this
    Message 1 of 13 , Mar 23, 2008
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      I just posted the following to the blog of neurologist Dr. Steven
      Novella at
      http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php?p=212
      [with permission for this message to be forwarded by others to
      FCworld (where I will know because I am a member there) and elsewhere
      but I request that I be notified if done elsewhere]:

      One really final comment:

      Except for someone who is completely brain dead, or actually dead,
      Dr. Novella is absolutely wrong when he describes any 14 year-old in
      the United States, after at least 11 years of entitlement to a Free
      Appropriate Public Education (and probably early intervention
      services before age 3) as "noncommunicative" no matter how severely
      autistic and nonverbal. I previously wrote that over 30 years ago,
      my own 5-1/2 year-old son was evaluated as having very poor
      communication skills but after several years of intense language
      therapy (which was over 25 years ago) that my son was quite
      communicative. Dr. Novella replied in effect that my son was unusual
      (and the other persons I mentioned by name) and therefore seems to
      imply that his experience could not be used to discuss the efficacy
      of Facilitated Communication in more general terms.

      Maybe my son at that point was doing better than others with his
      degree of brain dysfunction, but how could any 14 year-old today in
      the United States be described as "noncommunicative" except if
      completely brain dead, or actually dead? I must publicly object to
      such a statement by Dr. Novella, repeated more than once in this
      blog. I am open to an explanation about this use of the
      term "noncommunicative" from Dr. Novella, a neurologist who knows
      about the functioning of the human brain based on deep scientific
      knowledge. I realize Dr. Novella states his blog is about the use of
      FC, but being "noncommunicative" goes to the essence of his logic and
      therefore must be supported by facts.

      Arthur Golden of Jerusalem Israel
    • Arthur Golden
      I just posted the following to the blog of neurologist Dr. Steven Novella at http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php?p=212 : Dear Dr. Novella, It is
      Message 2 of 13 , Mar 25, 2008
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        I just posted the following to the blog of neurologist
        Dr. Steven Novella at
        http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php?p=212 :

        Dear Dr. Novella,

        It is over 24 hours since I asked you to explain your statements
        about a 14 year-old in the United States being "noncommunicative."

        I still await your reply.

        Sincerely,

        Arthur Golden of Jerusalem Israel


        --- In autismfc@yahoogroups.com, "Arthur Golden" wrote a full day ago:
        >
        > I just posted the following to the blog of neurologist
        > Dr. Steven Novella at
        > http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php?p=212
        > [with permission for this message to be forwarded by others to
        > FCworld (where I will know because I am a member there) and
        > elsewhere but I request that I be notified if done elsewhere]:
        >
        > One really final comment:
        >
        > Except for someone who is completely brain dead, or actually dead,
        > Dr. Novella is absolutely wrong when he describes any 14 year-old
        > in the United States, after at least 11 years of entitlement
        > to a Free Appropriate Public Education (and probably early
        > intervention services before age 3) as "noncommunicative"
        > no matter how severely autistic and nonverbal. I previously
        > wrote that over 30 years ago, my own 5-1/2 year-old son was
        > evaluated as having very poor communication skills but after
        > several years of intense language therapy (which was over 25
        > years ago) that my son was quite communicative. Dr. Novella
        > replied in effect that my son was unusual (and the other
        > persons I mentioned by name) and therefore seems to
        > imply that his experience could not be used to discuss the
        > efficacy of Facilitated Communication in more general terms.
        >
        > Maybe my son at that point was doing better than others with his
        > degree of brain dysfunction, but how could any 14 year-old today in
        > the United States be described as "noncommunicative" except if
        > completely brain dead, or actually dead? I must publicly object to
        > such a statement by Dr. Novella, repeated more than once in this
        > blog. I am open to an explanation about this use of the
        > term "noncommunicative" from Dr. Novella, a neurologist who knows
        > about the functioning of the human brain based on deep scientific
        > knowledge. I realize Dr. Novella states his blog is about the
        > use of FC, but being "noncommunicative" goes to the essence of
        > his logic and therefore must be supported by facts.
        >
        > Arthur Golden of Jerusalem Israel
        >
      • Arthur Golden
        With feelings of great disappointment, I wish to report to the members of autismfc that Dr. Steven Novella has not yet replied to my comments posted on his
        Message 3 of 13 , Mar 26, 2008
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          With feelings of great disappointment, I wish to report to the
          members of autismfc that Dr. Steven Novella has not yet replied to my
          comments posted on his blog over two days ago about a 14 year-old
          today in the United States being described as "noncommunicative."

          I do not wish to make a nuisance of myself, so I will not keep
          reminding him that he has yet to reply. I do wish to remark here
          that while his description of a 14 year-old today in the United
          States being described as "noncommunicative" may sound reasonable to
          the uninformed general public, in his professional role as a
          neurologist he should know better. On the other hand, among the many
          professionals that were seen by son Ben, I would say that
          neurologists were the least helpful. Of course, if Ben was found to
          have a seizure disorder (which thank Heavens he does not seem to have
          ever had) or some other specific brain disorder, I would assume that
          a neurologist would be helpful and therefore it was prudent to
          arrange for neurologists to regularly examine him.

          Maybe a neurologist should not be expected to know about language
          development, but if he is ignorant on this subject that he should not
          express any opinion. But Dr. Novella (MD) seems to be like many
          medical doctors and I doubt I can get him to admit to any ignorance.
          Fortunately, the last neurologist that Ben saw, when he was an adult
          here in Israel, has a proper respect for persons with autism, even
          though he could offer any help based on his specialty.

          Art

          --- In autismfc@yahoogroups.com, "Arthur Golden" <golden@...> wrote
          over 29 hours ago:
          >
          > I just posted the following to the blog of neurologist
          > Dr. Steven Novella at
          > http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php?p=212 :
          >
          > Dear Dr. Novella,
          >
          > It is over 24 hours since I asked you to explain your statements
          > about a 14 year-old in the United States being "noncommunicative."
          >
          > I still await your reply.
          >
          > Sincerely,
          >
          > Arthur Golden of Jerusalem Israel
          >
          >
          > --- In autismfc@yahoogroups.com, "Arthur Golden" wrote a full day
          before that - original message can be accessed at:
          http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/autismfc/message/1560
        • Tom Smith
          I hope there s not too many neurologists as unscientific or clueless as Dr Novella! I mean it s OK to be clueless on the subject of autism, but one shouldn t
          Message 4 of 13 , Mar 26, 2008
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            I hope there's not too many neurologists as unscientific or clueless as
            Dr Novella! I mean it's OK to be clueless on the subject of autism,
            but one shouldn't post on it as a neurologist with so little info or
            insight. There's no excuse however for his bias or lack of scientific
            acumen.

            I found the pediatricians to be another group who jumped on FC too
            energetically which would indicate not a scientific assessment, but one
            with an eye on political and cultural agendas.

            Tom

            --- Arthur Golden <golden@...> wrote:

            > With feelings of great disappointment, I wish to report to the
            > members of autismfc that Dr. Steven Novella has not yet replied to my
            >
            > comments posted on his blog over two days ago about a 14 year-old
            > today in the United States being described as "noncommunicative."
            >
            > I do not wish to make a nuisance of myself, so I will not keep
            > reminding him that he has yet to reply. I do wish to remark here
            > that while his description of a 14 year-old today in the United
            > States being described as "noncommunicative" may sound reasonable to
            > the uninformed general public, in his professional role as a
            > neurologist he should know better. On the other hand, among the many
            >
            > professionals that were seen by son Ben, I would say that
            > neurologists were the least helpful. Of course, if Ben was found to
            > have a seizure disorder (which thank Heavens he does not seem to have
            >
            > ever had) or some other specific brain disorder, I would assume that
            > a neurologist would be helpful and therefore it was prudent to
            > arrange for neurologists to regularly examine him.
            >
            > Maybe a neurologist should not be expected to know about language
            > development, but if he is ignorant on this subject that he should not
            >
            > express any opinion. But Dr. Novella (MD) seems to be like many
            > medical doctors and I doubt I can get him to admit to any ignorance.
            >
            > Fortunately, the last neurologist that Ben saw, when he was an adult
            > here in Israel, has a proper respect for persons with autism, even
            > though he could offer any help based on his specialty.
            >
            > Art
            >
            > --- In autismfc@yahoogroups.com, "Arthur Golden" <golden@...> wrote
            > over 29 hours ago:
            > >
            > > I just posted the following to the blog of neurologist
            > > Dr. Steven Novella at
            > > http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php?p=212 :
            > >
            > > Dear Dr. Novella,
            > >
            > > It is over 24 hours since I asked you to explain your statements
            > > about a 14 year-old in the United States being "noncommunicative."
            > >
            > > I still await your reply.
            > >
            > > Sincerely,
            > >
            > > Arthur Golden of Jerusalem Israel
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In autismfc@yahoogroups.com, "Arthur Golden" wrote a full day
            > before that - original message can be accessed at:
            > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/autismfc/message/1560
            >
            >
            >



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          • Arthur Golden
            Dr. Novella finally responded with the following but I am ready to go to bed - any ideas of how to reply from the rest of this autismfc list would be
            Message 5 of 13 , Mar 26, 2008
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              Dr. Novella finally responded with the following but I am ready to go
              to bed - any ideas of how to reply from the rest of this autismfc
              list would be appreciated:

              Steven Novella on 26 Mar 2008 at 2:50 pm EDT:

              "Let me make my position clear - FC is complete bunk. I think
              whenever a facilitator is in the loop, the communication is called
              into question - unless the facilitator is completely blinded to the
              questions/information. Simply minimizing "influence" is insufficient.

              Regarding "noncommunicative" I am not sure why you are harping on
              this term. This is commonly used to describe someone who is
              cognitively impaired so that they are unable to meaningfully
              communicate. To deny that such individuals exist is to be in denial."

              My original post accessed at:
              http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/autismfc/message/1560

              --- In autismfc@yahoogroups.com, "Arthur Golden" <golden@...> wrote:
              >
              > I just posted the following to the blog of neurologist Dr. Steven
              > Novella at
              > http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php?p=212
              > [with permission for this message to be forwarded by others to
              > FCworld (where I will know because I am a member there) and
              > elsewhere but I request that I be notified if done elsewhere]:
              >
              > One really final comment:
              >
              > Except for someone who is completely brain dead, or actually dead,
              > Dr. Novella is absolutely wrong when he describes any 14 year-old
              in
              > the United States, after at least 11 years of entitlement to a Free
              > Appropriate Public Education (and probably early intervention
              > services before age 3) as "noncommunicative" no matter how severely
              > autistic and nonverbal. I previously wrote that over 30 years ago,
              > my own 5-1/2 year-old son was evaluated as having very poor
              > communication skills but after several years of intense language
              > therapy (which was over 25 years ago) that my son was quite
              > communicative. Dr. Novella replied in effect that my son was
              unusual
              > (and the other persons I mentioned by name) and therefore seems to
              > imply that his experience could not be used to discuss the efficacy
              > of Facilitated Communication in more general terms.
              >
              > Maybe my son at that point was doing better than others with his
              > degree of brain dysfunction, but how could any 14 year-old today in
              > the United States be described as "noncommunicative" except if
              > completely brain dead, or actually dead? I must publicly object to
              > such a statement by Dr. Novella, repeated more than once in this
              > blog. I am open to an explanation about this use of the
              > term "noncommunicative" from Dr. Novella, a neurologist who knows
              > about the functioning of the human brain based on deep scientific
              > knowledge. I realize Dr. Novella states his blog is about the
              > use of FC, but being "noncommunicative" goes to the essence of
              > his logic and therefore must be supported by facts.
              >
              > Arthur Golden of Jerusalem Israel
              >
            • Char Brandl
              Art, Well, it might be foolish on my part to jump in like this, but I have now sent the following comment to Dr. Novella s blog: It s always dangerous to just
              Message 6 of 13 , Mar 26, 2008
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                Art,
                Well, it might be foolish on my part to jump in like this, but I have now sent the following comment to Dr. Novella's blog:
                 
                    It's always dangerous to just drop in on an ongoing discussion, especially since I haven't read all the comments, and will not be able to stick around to keep the conversation going.  But I think I can help with the concern about "noncommunicative" - at least a little.
                I was a special educator for many years, now retired.  Most of my students would have carried a similar label, and we thought they were severely cognitively impaired.  But the truth is that all sentient beings communicate in some way - even if it is all done through behavior, with no words spoken. 
                And we were so very wrong about their cognitive level.  They were unable to use spoken language to communicate their thoughts, but once we found a way to break through this barrier we began to see that they were learning all the time - and so much more intelligent than we had ever imagined.
                I used, and continue to use, Facilitated Communication.  Properly used, it is valid and real, and unless you have actually participated in a facilitated conversation, at least as an observer with an open mind, I don't think anyone has the right to imply that Art and I and others in our position are lying about our experiences.  The young people I work with have to deal with attitudes like that all the time, and they deserve better.
                Anne Donnellan has long advocated for going with the "Least Dangerous Assumption."  In cases like this, I think it's dangerous to assume anyone is cognitively impaired to the extent that they are unable to communicate.
                 
                Hope it helps. 
                Char

                Arthur Golden <golden@...> wrote:
                Dr. Novella finally responded with the following but I am ready to go
                to bed - any ideas of how to reply from the rest of this autismfc
                list would be appreciated:

                Steven Novella on 26 Mar 2008 at 2:50 pm EDT:

                "Let me make my position clear - FC is complete bunk. I think
                whenever a facilitator is in the loop, the communication is called
                into question - unless the facilitator is completely blinded to the
                questions/informati on. Simply minimizing "influence" is insufficient.

                Regarding "noncommunicative" I am not sure why you are harping on
                this term. This is commonly used to describe someone who is
                cognitively impaired so that they are unable to meaningfully
                communicate. To deny that such individuals exist is to be in denial."

                My original post accessed at:
                http://health. groups.yahoo. com/group/ autismfc/ message/1560

                .



                Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

              • Arthur Golden
                Char, Your comment sent to Dr. Novella s blog is excellent but he has not yet allowed it to be publicly displayed after 5 hours and I doubt that anything will
                Message 7 of 13 , Mar 26, 2008
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                  Char,

                  Your comment sent to Dr. Novella's blog is excellent but he has not
                  yet allowed it to be publicly displayed after 5 hours and I doubt
                  that anything will penetrate his closed mind.

                  However, I find your wisdom to be very well stated and I ask your
                  permission to share it with parents of children viewed
                  as "noncommunicative" by the professionals, including teachers. If I
                  can find an open mind, then your words can penetrate.

                  Later this morning (my time) I plan to send you a pdf file of an
                  article from a news magazine here in Israel about a 14 year-old being
                  described as "noncommunicative" - a situation that today does happen
                  here in Israel even though it should not happen today in the United
                  States. The article was written anonymously but I will try to locate
                  the author and therefore the 14 year-old and try to offer to help,
                  giving out your words of wisdom.

                  Art

                  --- In autismfc@yahoogroups.com, Char Brandl <charbfc@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Art,
                  > Well, it might be foolish on my part to jump in like this, but I
                  have now sent the following comment to Dr. Novella's blog:
                  >
                  > It's always dangerous to just drop in on an ongoing
                  discussion, especially since I haven't read all the comments, and
                  will not be able to stick around to keep the conversation going. But
                  I think I can help with the concern about "noncommunicative" - at
                  least a little.
                  > I was a special educator for many years, now retired. Most of my
                  students would have carried a similar label, and we thought they were
                  severely cognitively impaired. But the truth is that all sentient
                  beings communicate in some way - even if it is all done through
                  behavior, with no words spoken.
                  > And we were so very wrong about their cognitive level. They were
                  unable to use spoken language to communicate their thoughts, but once
                  we found a way to break through this barrier we began to see that
                  they were learning all the time - and so much more intelligent than
                  we had ever imagined.
                  > I used, and continue to use, Facilitated Communication. Properly
                  used, it is valid and real, and unless you have actually participated
                  in a facilitated conversation, at least as an observer with an open
                  mind, I don't think anyone has the right to imply that Art and I and
                  others in our position are lying about our experiences. The young
                  people I work with have to deal with attitudes like that all the
                  time, and they deserve better.
                  > Anne Donnellan has long advocated for going with the "Least
                  Dangerous Assumption." In cases like this, I think it's dangerous to
                  assume anyone is cognitively impaired to the extent that they are
                  unable to communicate.
                  >
                  > Hope it helps.
                  > Char
                  >
                  [snip] Original message can be accessed at:
                  http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/autismfc/message/1571
                • Char Brandl
                  Art, Yes, please feel free to share my comments with anyone who might be interested. I am always hoping to be able to help. Char Arthur Golden
                  Message 8 of 13 , Mar 26, 2008
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                    Art,
                    Yes, please feel free to share my comments with anyone who might be interested.  I am always hoping to be able to help.

                    Char

                    Arthur Golden <golden@...> wrote:
                    Char,

                    Your comment sent to Dr. Novella's blog is excellent but he has not
                    yet allowed it to be publicly displayed after 5 hours and I doubt
                    that anything will penetrate his closed mind.

                    However, I find your wisdom to be very well stated and I ask your
                    permission to share it with parents of children viewed
                    as "noncommunicative" by the professionals, including teachers. If I
                    can find an open mind, then your words can penetrate.

                    Later this morning (my time) I plan to send you a pdf file of an
                    article from a news magazine here in Israel about a 14 year-old being
                    described as "noncommunicative" - a situation that today does happen
                    here in Israel even though it should not happen today in the United
                    States. The article was written anonymously but I will try to locate
                    the author and therefore the 14 year-old and try to offer to help,
                    giving out your words of wisdom.

                    Art

                    --- In autismfc@yahoogroup s.com, Char Brandl <charbfc@... > wrote:
                    >
                    > Art,
                    > Well, it might be foolish on my part to jump in like this, but I
                    have now sent the following comment to Dr. Novella's blog:
                    >
                    > It's always dangerous to just drop in on an ongoing
                    discussion, especially since I haven't read all the comments, and
                    will not be able to stick around to keep the conversation going. But
                    I think I can help with the concern about "noncommunicative" - at
                    least a little.
                    > I was a special educator for many years, now retired. Most of my
                    students would have carried a similar label, and we thought they were
                    severely cognitively impaired. But the truth is that all sentient
                    beings communicate in some way - even if it is all done through
                    behavior, with no words spoken.
                    > And we were so very wrong about their cognitive level. They were
                    unable to use spoken language to communicate their thoughts, but once
                    we found a way to break through this barrier we began to see that
                    they were learning all the time - and so much more intelligent than
                    we had ever imagined.
                    > I used, and continue to use, Facilitated Communication. Properly
                    used, it is valid and real, and unless you have actually participated
                    in a facilitated conversation, at least as an observer with an open
                    mind, I don't think anyone has the right to imply that Art and I and
                    others in our position are lying about our experiences. The young
                    people I work with have to deal with attitudes like that all the
                    time, and they deserve better.
                    > Anne Donnellan has long advocated for going with the "Least
                    Dangerous Assumption." In cases like this, I think it's dangerous to
                    assume anyone is cognitively impaired to the extent that they are
                    unable to communicate.
                    >
                    > Hope it helps.
                    > Char
                    >
                    [snip] Original message can be accessed at:
                    http://health. groups.yahoo. com/group/ autismfc/ message/1571



                    Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

                  • Arthur Golden
                    I just tried to make the following entry to Dr. Novella s blog and it was not accepted. So I am posting it here: Dear Dr. Novella, 1. Since I am not
                    Message 9 of 13 , Mar 27, 2008
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                      I just tried to make the following entry to Dr. Novella's blog and it
                      was not accepted. So I am posting it here:

                      Dear Dr. Novella,

                      1. Since I am not ideologically immune to evidence and logic, I
                      invite your showing me that your position is strong and based upon
                      established evidence and valid logic. While I appreciate that you
                      did respond to my comment about any 14 year-old today in the United
                      States being described as "noncommunicative" [which can be found
                      separately at
                      http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/autismfc/message/1560 ], you
                      have not yet presented me such evidence to support your position. I
                      am disappointed that your most recent comment to me is not up to your
                      usual high standards. I am further disappointed that the comment
                      from Char has not yet been posted to your blog (but can be found at
                      http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/autismfc/message/1572 ) Please
                      do not rush to respond but instead take the time to carefully
                      consider these matters and respond when you are ready. In the
                      meantime, in this comment entry I will comment further on what you
                      just wrote and ask some questions for you to consider when you are
                      ready (which I expect would be a new blog entry).

                      2. You started your most recent reply with "Let me make my position
                      clear - FC is complete bunk." In my recent reply to Leonard, I wrote
                      that "I am deeply convinced about the authenticity of FC." However,
                      this blog entry is about Facilitated Testimony in the Courtroom" You
                      then write "I think whenever a facilitator is in the loop, the
                      communication is called into question - unless the facilitator is
                      completely blinded to the questions/information." Although our
                      positions are different about FC in general, when it comes to FC in
                      the courtroom, I do wish to clearly state that in that situation I
                      agree with you that the communication is called into question. In
                      the case of Sharisa Joy Kochmeister - my information section (a)
                      above - her FC was accepted in court in the early 1990's because she
                      passed a double blind test in front of the judge and with Dr. Howard
                      Shane as the expert witness for the other side. However, as I
                      mentioned in my information sections (b) and (d) above - my own son
                      Ben did not pass such tests which we voluntarily did with Dr. Howard
                      Shane - but I believe (and realize I have yet to provide you any
                      evidence) it was because of my son's autism and not because of his
                      lack of communication.

                      3. You then state that "Simply minimizing "influence" is
                      insufficient." But is your statement based on logic? In my
                      information section (e) above I mention an alternative procedure -
                      asking the person to repeat the information to another facilitator
                      who is unaware of the FC with the first facilitator - before
                      proceeding with any court proceedings or even accepted the charges as
                      a valid report. You know that this alternative procedure was not
                      followed in the recent case. In the situation of my son, I wrote six
                      days and I still would like an answer from you to the following (the
                      question is at the end):

                      I am curious if any one here is already aware of the spiritual
                      content of the FC messages of my son Ben (now written originally only
                      in Hebrew but translated by others into English and please note that
                      I have no involvement in promoting such messages but many other
                      people do). Leading Torah scholars all state that my son Ben displays
                      a vast knowledge of Torah literature (which I doubt you have any
                      knowledge about), while I know that the facilitator (not me) does not
                      have such a background (but neither do I). If you or others are
                      curious, you can click on to:

                      http://www.emet8.com

                      or

                      http://dani18.com

                      I do not expect any of you, or Chris Borthwick, to have any interest
                      in the content of the FC facilitated with my son Ben, but considering
                      the already poor reputation of FC, why should any one try to stop it?

                      4. Although you write "Regarding "noncommunicative" I am not sure
                      why you are harping on this term" I wish to state that I only asked
                      the question one time and then posted one reminder a day later, which
                      I do not consider to be "harping on this term." I even posted at
                      my "own" website at
                      http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/autismfc/message/1569 "I do not
                      wish to make a nuisance of myself, so I will not keep reminding him
                      that he has yet to reply." Let's just say that you and I seem to
                      perceive things differently. Next you write "This is commonly used
                      to describe someone who is cognitively impaired so that they are
                      unable to meaningfully communicate." I know that I am extensively
                      involved with trying to improve the communication skills of persons
                      with no effective means of communication and I did not know about
                      such usage of the term "noncommunicative." Where is this term
                      commonly used? By the way, what do you meant by "unable to
                      meaningfully communicate?" By my human logic this does not at all
                      sound like being "noncommunicative." Please explain your logic that
                      these two terms are equivalent. You end your most recent comment
                      with "To deny that such individuals exist is to be in denial." Since
                      I already stated that persons who are brain dead are
                      noncommunicative, I do not deny such individuals exist. However, I
                      have the extensive experience to know that persons who have the most
                      extreme difficulties in communicating can, with sometimes years of
                      effort, always be able to learn to communicate. If you have evidence
                      that contradicts my extensive experience, please give it to me,
                      preferably in the form of citations of peer-reviewed scientific
                      studies.

                      Arthur Golden of Jerusalem Israel
                    • Arthur Golden
                      It turns out that my comment to Dr. Novella s blog was not accepted because of a computer problem, which Dr. Novella was kind enough to fix and now both the
                      Message 10 of 13 , Mar 27, 2008
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                        It turns out that my comment to Dr. Novella's blog was not accepted
                        because of a computer problem, which Dr. Novella was kind enough to fix
                        and now both the comments from Char and me are on his blog.

                        Steven Novella on 27 Mar 2008 at 9:06 am [EDT]

                        Note - many comments are being flagged as spam. This typically happens
                        if there are multiple URL links in the comment. So there may be a delay
                        because I have to review and de-spam such comments.

                        If you want to avoid this, then limit your links in comments.

                        arthurgolden on 27 Mar 2008 at 10:24 am

                        Sorry for causing that problem!

                        Thank you for going to the bother of fixing the problem and getting my
                        long comment, with its links, onto the blog.
                      • Tom Smith
                        What intervention in autism isn t complete bunk ? If he worked on the ground with autistics he d be more forgiving of such a gentle, sweet and hopeful
                        Message 11 of 13 , Mar 27, 2008
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                          What intervention in autism isn't "complete bunk"? If he worked "on
                          the ground" with autistics he'd be more forgiving of such a gentle,
                          sweet and hopeful intervention. Then if like me he did it and watched
                          the "data" on it's effects both to the autie's behaviors and the
                          general ambiance of the whole place when working with them and using
                          FC, he'd consider it not only a God-send for the work he was trying to
                          do, but a blessing for finally being able to get to know the auties
                          he's working or living with. He doesn't like the way auties
                          communicate? We don't like the ways he communicates.

                          But Dr Novella doesn't need to worry about any of that, he only needs
                          to worry about his career's bottom line and for that calling "FC bunk"
                          is a great boost.

                          Dr Novella is an opportunist-careerist and I personally don't care
                          about him.

                          Tom

                          --- Arthur Golden <golden@...> wrote:

                          > Dr. Novella finally responded with the following but I am ready to go
                          >
                          > to bed - any ideas of how to reply from the rest of this autismfc
                          > list would be appreciated:
                          >
                          > Steven Novella on 26 Mar 2008 at 2:50 pm EDT:
                          >
                          > "Let me make my position clear - FC is complete bunk. I think
                          > whenever a facilitator is in the loop, the communication is called
                          > into question - unless the facilitator is completely blinded to the
                          > questions/information. Simply minimizing "influence" is insufficient.
                          >
                          >
                          > Regarding "noncommunicative" I am not sure why you are harping on
                          > this term. This is commonly used to describe someone who is
                          > cognitively impaired so that they are unable to meaningfully
                          > communicate. To deny that such individuals exist is to be in denial."
                          >
                          > My original post accessed at:
                          > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/autismfc/message/1560
                          >
                          > --- In autismfc@yahoogroups.com, "Arthur Golden" <golden@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I just posted the following to the blog of neurologist Dr. Steven
                          > > Novella at
                          > > http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php?p=212
                          > > [with permission for this message to be forwarded by others to
                          > > FCworld (where I will know because I am a member there) and
                          > > elsewhere but I request that I be notified if done elsewhere]:
                          > >
                          > > One really final comment:
                          > >
                          > > Except for someone who is completely brain dead, or actually dead,
                          > > Dr. Novella is absolutely wrong when he describes any 14 year-old
                          > in
                          > > the United States, after at least 11 years of entitlement to a Free
                          >
                          > > Appropriate Public Education (and probably early intervention
                          > > services before age 3) as "noncommunicative" no matter how severely
                          >
                          > > autistic and nonverbal. I previously wrote that over 30 years ago,
                          >
                          > > my own 5-1/2 year-old son was evaluated as having very poor
                          > > communication skills but after several years of intense language
                          > > therapy (which was over 25 years ago) that my son was quite
                          > > communicative. Dr. Novella replied in effect that my son was
                          > unusual
                          > > (and the other persons I mentioned by name) and therefore seems to
                          > > imply that his experience could not be used to discuss the efficacy
                          >
                          > > of Facilitated Communication in more general terms.
                          > >
                          > > Maybe my son at that point was doing better than others with his
                          > > degree of brain dysfunction, but how could any 14 year-old today in
                          >
                          > > the United States be described as "noncommunicative" except if
                          > > completely brain dead, or actually dead? I must publicly object to
                          >
                          > > such a statement by Dr. Novella, repeated more than once in this
                          > > blog. I am open to an explanation about this use of the
                          > > term "noncommunicative" from Dr. Novella, a neurologist who knows
                          > > about the functioning of the human brain based on deep scientific
                          > > knowledge. I realize Dr. Novella states his blog is about the
                          > > use of FC, but being "noncommunicative" goes to the essence of
                          > > his logic and therefore must be supported by facts.
                          > >
                          > > Arthur Golden of Jerusalem Israel
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >



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                        • Arthur Golden
                          After a full week, Dr. Novella has not posted any reply to my last comment to his blog entry Facilitated Testimony in the Courtroom which can be accessed at:
                          Message 12 of 13 , Apr 3 8:02 AM
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                            After a full week, Dr. Novella has not posted any reply to my last
                            comment to his blog entry "Facilitated Testimony in the Courtroom"
                            which can be accessed at:
                            http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php?p=212

                            At this point I do not expect he will reply further on his blog entry
                            that he started three weeks ago.

                            Meanwhile I will keep monitoring his blog NEUROLOGICA and I expect
                            that eventually Dr. Novella will bring up a relevant subject and I
                            will be able to try to continue our dialogue.

                            After I posted my last comment, I did a little research and I found a
                            relevant article on persons who are "defined" by neurologists
                            as "noncommunicative" - persons in a "vegetative state" or "minimally
                            conscious" (two different situations). The article can be accessed
                            at:

                            http://espra.risc.cnrs.fr/SL_TICS05.pdf

                            For persons in a "vegetative state" or "minimally conscious" there is
                            not enough brain activity for the brain to cause the mind to be able
                            to communicate, but since I do not understand that the brain is the
                            cause of the mind, I believe that even such persons can communicate -
                            at least through the type of Facilitated Communication done by my son
                            Ben. I am looking forward to an interesting dialogue with Dr.
                            Novella at such time that I can bring up this subject again.

                            Art
                          • Tom Smith
                            Even if someone is severely noncommunicative , in the nursing field we are supposed to use ANY communication method, verbal or nonverbal, in order to do our
                            Message 13 of 13 , Apr 3 9:53 AM
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                              Even if someone is severely "noncommunicative", in the nursing field we
                              are supposed to use ANY communication method, verbal or nonverbal, in
                              order to do our jobs ethically. This is taught as the HIGHEST priority
                              in nursing.

                              Tom

                              --- Arthur Golden <golden@...> wrote:

                              > After a full week, Dr. Novella has not posted any reply to my last
                              > comment to his blog entry "Facilitated Testimony in the Courtroom"
                              > which can be accessed at:
                              > http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php?p=212
                              >
                              > At this point I do not expect he will reply further on his blog entry
                              >
                              > that he started three weeks ago.
                              >
                              > Meanwhile I will keep monitoring his blog NEUROLOGICA and I expect
                              > that eventually Dr. Novella will bring up a relevant subject and I
                              > will be able to try to continue our dialogue.
                              >
                              > After I posted my last comment, I did a little research and I found a
                              >
                              > relevant article on persons who are "defined" by neurologists
                              > as "noncommunicative" - persons in a "vegetative state" or "minimally
                              >
                              > conscious" (two different situations). The article can be accessed
                              > at:
                              >
                              > http://espra.risc.cnrs.fr/SL_TICS05.pdf
                              >
                              > For persons in a "vegetative state" or "minimally conscious" there is
                              >
                              > not enough brain activity for the brain to cause the mind to be able
                              > to communicate, but since I do not understand that the brain is the
                              > cause of the mind, I believe that even such persons can communicate -
                              >
                              > at least through the type of Facilitated Communication done by my son
                              >
                              > Ben. I am looking forward to an interesting dialogue with Dr.
                              > Novella at such time that I can bring up this subject again.
                              >
                              > Art
                              >
                              >
                              >



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