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Re: [australianherps] Re: Feeding Gecko tails

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  • Jane Wilson
    To Brad Yes this person does reside in Darwin (my name is Jane) and the Gex are not tortured they are picked up drop their tails which are rubbed over dead
    Message 1 of 23 , Aug 31 11:15 PM
      To Brad
      Yes this person does reside in Darwin (my name is Jane) and the Gex are not tortured they are picked up drop their tails which are rubbed over dead mice for snakes who are hesitant to feed it is not done repeatedly only a couple of times and the non native species of gecko that is used runs off to find a smaller native resident gecko to beat up immediately after. I also must stress that I do not practice this form of feeding it was merely suggested to me.
      Jane.
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Brad
      To: australianherps@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 7:48 AM
      Subject: Re: [australianherps] Re: Feeding Gecko tails


      Thanks for clarifing that for me Grant
      Cheers Brad
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "baritji2001" <goannafive@...>
      To: <australianherps@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 9:31 PM
      Subject: [australianherps] Re: Feeding Gecko tails


      > Hi Brad
      > Asian house geckos Hemidactylus frenatus do in fact cause problems,
      > particularly with one of our natives, Gehyra australis. They are far
      > more successful than their native counterpart and have pushed them
      > out in many areas around Darwin.
      > Cheers Grant Husband
      >
      > --- In australianherps@yahoogroups.com, "Brad" <bradmc@h...> wrote:
      > > Can't believe what you say.
      > > Is this person in Darwin ?
      > > Not every one has access to non indiginous
      > > Geckos. this list goes all over and most places
      > > have native Gex.
      > > I still don't undestand how you could be cruel to any Gex.
      > > What harm are they causing besides eating cocroaches
      > > I have Robust Velvet gex around my home
      > > May be one of the inexperience keepers may think
      > > it is fine to damage any Gex for feeding purpose!
      > >
      > > It is not legal to feed your reptiles on Gex tails
      > > in NSW anyway
      > > Not sure about Darwin I guess there a territory
      > > and not part of Aus
      > > And I don't have the right type of hat YE HA
      > >
      > > Brad
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: "Lori" <lemurgrrl@h...>
      > > To: <australianherps@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 9:26 PM
      > > Subject: Re: [australianherps] FW: Welcome to australianherps
      > >
      > >
      > > > But I say go ahead and sacrifice one of the plentiful (and non-
      > indigenous)
      > > > Asian house geckoes that live all over the Darwin area!
      > > >
      > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > From: "Brad" <bradmc@h...>
      > > > To: <australianherps@yahoogroups.com>
      > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 5:35 PM
      > > > Subject: Re: [australianherps] FW: Welcome to australianherps
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > > An amazing Gecko would be better off
      > > > > keeping his tail. :-(
      > > > >
      > > > > A gecko lover
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > > From: "Jane Wilson" <jwilson@o...>
      > > > > To: <australianherps@yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 4:52 PM
      > > > > Subject: Re: [australianherps] FW: Welcome to australianherps
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > > Hi Darren
      > > > > > thanks for the info - we might try some fuzzie mice or I have
      > been
      > > > advised
      > > > > to get the tail from a gecko that will bounce about and attract
      > the
      > > > snake.He
      > > > > has only been with us for 5 days so I guess he will take some
      > time to
      > > > > settle. What a placid temprement these little snakes have he is
      > only
      > > > 32grams
      > > > > and and about 40cm long. I am scared of them but my daughter
      > laura just
      > > > > loves it.
      > > > > > Any other advice will be gratefully accepted
      > > > > > Jane
      > > > > > ps I am putting half of his enclosure under a heater pad at
      > night as
      > > he
      > > > is
      > > > > cold as in the morning.
      > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > > > From: Darren
      > > > > > To: australianherps@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > > Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 9:03 PM
      > > > > > Subject: Re: [australianherps] FW: Welcome to
      > australianherps
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > G`day Jane,
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I too am also new to the group and owner of a Childrens
      > python.I
      > > > bought
      > > > > my snake and the enclosure together from a private seller. The
      > enclosure
      > > > had
      > > > > nothing in it other than 2 x 40w bulbs, a small dog water bowl,
      > a small
      > > > > stick to climb on and a small hide box.
      > > > > > I couldn`t get him to eat for the first 6 weeks I had him.
      > > > > > I went and bought some substrate bark, put in 2 more sticks,
      > > invested
      > > > in
      > > > > some decent lighting (60w dayglobe, on a timer) a heating
      > element with
      > > a
      > > > > thermostat, 3 small rocks, half a hollow log and put in a
      > smaller water
      > > > bowl
      > > > > ( a lid off a large peanut butter jar).
      > > > > > Not only was it a more natural sort of environment but the
      > > > temperatures
      > > > > are more constant (24 at night to about 32 mid to late
      > afternoon) and he
      > > > > began eating, all I do now is defrost a pinky or fuzzy every 5-
      > 10 days
      > > and
      > > > > place it on one of the rocks and within 20 minutes he finds and
      > eats it.
      > > > > > He has also shed his skin, don`t see him much during the
      > day (likes
      > > to
      > > > > hide in the bark under the light or under the log) but mostly
      > comes out
      > > > > after the lights are off.
      > > > > > I`ve done a bit of research and found they are more of a
      > nocturnal
      > > > > snake, I think that sort of puts off beginners because mostly
      > they
      > > aren`t
      > > > > the most active snake to look at, but I reckon they are great.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Cheers,
      > > > > > Darren
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
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    • Sailaway
      Hi Richard, That is certainly a thought-provoking concept, sacred cows be buggered. One simple thing that I am wondering though, is egg-laying sites for
      Message 2 of 23 , Sep 1, 2003
        Hi Richard,
        That is certainly a thought-provoking concept, sacred cows be buggered. One simple thing that I am wondering though, is egg-laying sites for Gehyra VS Hemidactylus. I don't recall too many Gehyra laying sites in houses around Palmerston, Darwin or even the Berry Springs area. There were exceptions, like the Bark Hut Inn though!

        This may be simply showing my ignorance, but I found lots of old eggshell that I am pretty sure were from Hemidactylus around habitation. Is it possible that Gehyra selects natural sites while Hemidactylus may be more tolerant of disturbance? Could the reduction in the natural bush have limited Gehyra around houses due to simply reducing the suitable laying sites?

        Grant, as someone who lives in the area in question, what are your thoughts on this? Am I talking garbage?

        Just a few thoughts off the top of my head.

        Cheers,

        Gavin


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: richardwells@...
        To: australianherps@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 2:56 PM
        Subject: Re: [australianherps] Re: Feeding Gecko tails


        Hi Grant,
        I know this is a sort of sacred cow with Australian
        herpetologists, but should Hemidactylus frenatus
        really be blamed in the demise of Gehyra australis
        from around Darwin or anywhere else for that matter?
        I question the real basis for the disappearance of
        Gehyra from Darwin. When we were collecting
        together in Darwin during those miserable, poverty-
        stricken days in the 1980s we both regarded frenatus
        as just another exotic that was driving out the natives.
        And so did everyone else. But I always had a nagging
        thought about the accuracy of this assessment,
        because of the extreme differences in the urban
        environment in Darwin that these species were
        exposed to. No one had any doubts that it was being
        distributed all over the place in freight, both in
        Australia and throughout parts of Asia, so the notion
        that it had originally been introduced by humans into
        Australia regardless of where it was, wasn’t challenged
        at all either.
        As you would know, its spread over northern Australia
        is still largely confined to human settlements and its
        dispersal is still presumably due to the movement of
        freight. So far so good, you might think. However, the
        Australian population HAS been examined genetically
        and found to differ from other populations of frenatus
        in Asia. So the obvious question is…where precisely
        did it come from if it was actually introduced into
        Australia? We still really don’t have a conclusive
        answer to that one. But I’ll get back to that in a
        moment.
        Now as to frenatus competing with Gehyra spp. by
        wiping out the invertebrates that Gehyra would
        normally take, well I really haven’t seen much
        evidence of that. We all know that frenatus feeds on
        a prey size and type that exists in incalculable
        billions. It is just not worth considering that frenatus
        may be responsible for excluding Gehyra on the basis
        of some predator/prey dietary argument. As for inter-
        specific
        interactions with other geckos like Gehyra australis –
        sure this does occur as we both have observed. And
        like you, until quite recently, I also presumed that
        frenatus was pushing out the native Gehyra australis.
        On
        reconsideration, I am now not so sure. In Darwin
        frenatus was sympatric with the larger native Gehyra
        australis for decades until almost everyone in Darwin
        started using a insecticides like Baygon, then australis
        virtually disappeared overnight from houses so
        sprayed from what I can gather. I actually saw this
        happening and other naturalists in Darwin reported
        similar occurrences to me even back in 1977. Whether
        there was a direct impact from the insecticide no one
        knows for sure, but it sure as hell looked suspicious
        when geckos dropped off the wall in a comatose state
        when a householder sprayed a room for cockroaches!
        From what I have been able to determine, Gehyra
        australis still occurs sympatrically in Darwin with
        frenatus in houses where insecticide-use is prevented.
        Sure there is interaction between the species, but is
        this really resulting in the scale of elimination of
        Gehyra that is believed? If Gehyra is actually declining
        from houses in Darwin (and even back in the days
        when I lived there, this APPEARED to be the case) the
        question that still remains to be answered is, Why?
        The quick answer is of course because of competition
        from frenatus, but I’d bet it is not that simple. To my
        my mind it’s more likely humans that are doing the
        excluding. The toxic chemicals sprayed to control
        mosquitoes and cockroaches MUST be having a
        deleterious impact on these lizards. Similarly, building
        activities in the urban environment could easily result
        in widespread changes to the availability of refuge
        sites for frenatus and Gehyra and of course they may
        even result in the temporal fragmentation of the
        micro-distributional range of either species. Such
        activities could result in selective pressure that results
        in the partial “disappearance” of one species over
        another from an urban area. One could easily gain
        the wrong impression without the full picture of these
        species’ urban ecologies. Let’s assume that Gehyra
        was say eliminated from a part of town by say, a
        cyclone destroying the buildings. How long does it
        take for Gehyra to recolonize an area of houses that
        have been subjected to cyclonic destruction and
        subsequent rebuilding? When I was living in Darwin, I
        observed that there were plenty of Gehyra australis in
        the suburbs least affected by Cyclone Tracy, and
        virtually none in the areas that had been destroyed
        and then subjected to the largest urban reconstruction
        in Australia’s history. Recovery rates for populations
        of lizards vary considerably even in natural situations,
        but virtually nothing is known of recovery rates in
        disturbed urban environments. Given the hostile
        nature of the urban environment, I would hazard a
        guess that recovery rates would be very low indeed.
        Nevertheless, none are really quick to recover from
        sudden crashes in numbers under any conditions from
        what I have seen. Vacant habitats may or may not be
        recolonized even after many years, but if recovery is
        to occur, it is a requirement for the right
        environmental and biological conditions to prevail
        first. A prolonged period of unsuitable climatic
        conditions or more likely environmental variation
        caused by habitat heterogeneity may result in an
        otherwise previously occupied area being altered so
        as to no longer be able to support the species. At the
        very least a previously suitable location may be slow
        to support the re-establishment of a colony following
        environmental perturbations.
        Now just quickly, back to the ‘introduction’ of frenatus
        into Australia. You may have read elsewhere where I
        have suggested that frenatus may actually be a
        native to Australia. Of course I may be wrong, and I
        could accept that if the evidence so demonstrated it.
        As I have previously stated, the morphological
        variation of the geckos traditionally lumped into the
        single widespread species “Hemidactylus frenatus”,
        indicates that frenatus is a species-complex. Just
        check out the original type descriptions of some of
        the so-called synonyms of frenatus and you will see
        what I mean. When it was later shown that there were
        distinct chromosome races of this “species” in south-
        east Asia, it became clear that we are actually dealing
        with more than one species in what is traditionally
        regarded as frenatus, but no one other than Ross and
        I have dared to comment on it.
        When I lived in Darwin however, I actually mapped
        the distribution pattern of the species and sure, I
        found it mainly to be in association with human
        habitations - as everyone else has found. But, I also
        examined native habitats across the Top End as you
        would remember and I also found the species living
        naturally along the Adelaide River System, and this
        was nowhere near areas of present human habitation.
        Similarly, I found them along Berry Springs Creek and
        Howard Springs Creek as well, and in those days
        (1970s), these places were virtually uninhabited
        bushland areas, not in effect suburbs of Darwin as
        they are today. The only problem that prevented me
        from thinking that frenatus may be really a native
        gecko was that, although these places appeared
        almost virgin bushland areas, all had actually been
        used in the 1940s as massive staging posts for allied
        servicemen preparing for war against the Japanese.
        Where Berry Springs Zoo is now, and in surrounding
        areas, there were hundreds of buildings containing
        thousands of personnel and vast freight movements
        into and out of the area. So I just assumed that
        frenatus must have been able to adapt to the
        bushland areas after the removal of the military
        camps etc. In these “natural” areas specimens were
        found beneath loose bark on tree trunks and
        branches 2 or 3 metres up and they were always
        sympatric with Oedura rhombifer. Needless to say,
        this was extremely surprising to me. Although this
        could also mean that frenatus may be spreading into
        native habitats, one would expect a distributional
        continuum between settlements and natural areas,
        but there was no evidence for this. I just think that
        maybe we need to rethink the occurrence of frenatus
        in Australia. Sure it may have been originally
        introduced by humans, but could the Macassans have
        done it centuries earlier than the Europeans? Could it
        even be an endemic native species of House Gecko
        that was naturally restricted in Northern Australia until
        the advent of European settlement which has now
        resulted in its wider distribution? Due to the aridity of
        the widespread savanna habitat across northern
        Australia – which is totally unsuitable for frenatus –
        this could be a species of restricted riparian
        situations – i.e. along rivers (which the Macassans
        also frequented). An alternative proposition may be
        that since settlement, this species may have actually
        expanded its range into those human-created
        environments that are ecologically similar to riparian
        situations – that is, into houses and protected urban
        gardens. This is precisely the same situation that the
        native Gehyra australis and part of the Gehyra
        variegata complex have exploited since the European
        settlement of Australia. As you well know, these
        species of Gehyra have rapidly utilized human
        structures and materials as shelter-sites, and have
        been transported all over the place by freight, so that
        now some exist in towns in the midst of habitats that
        have likely never supported the species. In some
        situations, australis appears to push out dubia where
        they co-exist on the walls of tropical buildings in
        Queensland. Interesting, but given the artificiality of it
        all, so what? If frenatus actually does out-compete
        australis in the unnatural habitat of an urban
        landscape in Darwin or WA or Qld, again so what?
        That doesn’t necessarily prove that frenatus is a
        threat to the survival of an element of the native
        biota. Because of its close association will human
        habitation, the lesser possibility that our ‘frenatus’ is
        actually an endemic form of House Gecko has been
        given absolutely no consideration at all. But whether
        frenatus is endemic or exotic, I am afraid that I will
        need a lot more convincing before I will agree that the
        species is as big a threat to the Australian
        environment that is continually assumed. Convincing
        evidence is just not there Grant.

        Best Regards

        Richard Wells


        Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 11:31:52 -0000
        From: "baritji2001" <goannafive@...>
        Subject: [australianherps] Re: Feeding Gecko tails
        To: australianherps@yahoogroups.com


        Hi Brad
        Asian house geckos Hemidactylus frenatus do in fact
        cause problems, particularly with one of our natives,
        Gehyra australis. They are far more successful than
        their native counterpart and have pushed them out in
        many areas around Darwin.

        Cheers Grant Husband

        --- In australianherps@yahoogroups.com, "Brad"
        <bradmc@h...> wrote:
        Can't believe what you say.
        Is this person in Darwin ? Not every one has access to
        non indiginous Geckos. this list goes all over and
        most places have native Gex. I still don't undestand
        how you could be cruel to any Gex. What harm are
        they causing besides eating cocroaches. I have
        Robust Velvet gex around my home
        May be one of the inexperience keepers may think it
        is fine to damage any Gex for feeding purpose!

        It is not legal to feed your reptiles on Gex tails in
        NSW anyway
        Not sure about Darwin I guess there a territory and
        not part of Aus
        And I don't have the right type of hat YE HA

        Brad
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Lori" <lemurgrrl@h...>
        To: <australianherps@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 9:26 PM
        Subject: Re: [australianherps] FW: Welcome to
        australianherps

        But I say go ahead and sacrifice one of the plentiful
        (and non- indigenous) Asian house geckoes that live
        all over the Darwin area!





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      • Brodie Wilson
        I totally agree Lori:) I have hundreds of these gecko s all around my house and have never seen a native species of gecko any where near my house. I also
        Message 3 of 23 , Sep 1, 2003
          I totally agree Lori:)
          I have hundreds of these gecko's all around my house and have never seen a
          native species of gecko any where near my house. I also freeze these house
          gecko's to my lil baritji's they love em :)


          >From: "Lori" <lemurgrrl@...>
          >Reply-To: australianherps@yahoogroups.com
          >To: <australianherps@yahoogroups.com>
          >Subject: Re: [australianherps] Feeding Gecko tails
          >Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 13:09:20 +0930
          >
          >Yes, Jane is in Darwin. Yes, non-indigenous Asian geckoes are harmful -
          >they
          >out-compete native geckoes, for one thing. And no, I'm not saying to be
          >"cruel" to them - don't torture them to death or anything. But eliminating
          >non-native geckoes is no different to shooting pigs or rabbits or fixes or
          >god forbid, killing cane toads, they're an introduced species that are
          >doing
          >harm to native species and don't belong here. If you could step back from
          >your overly-emotional gut feelings about it and be reasonable, I'm sure you
          >would agree. Oh, and you can keep your irrational prejudices about the
          >Northern Territory to yourself, as well. Breathing all the smoke and smog
          >in
          >NSW must be getting to ya, eh? ;)
          >
          >Cheers from the Top End,
          >Lori
          >
          >----- Original Message -----
          >From: "Brad" <bradmc@...>
          >To: <australianherps@yahoogroups.com>
          >Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 9:45 AM
          >Subject: [australianherps] Feeding Gecko tails
          >
          >
          > > Can't believe what you say.
          > > Is this person in Darwin ?
          > > Not every one has access to non indiginous
          > > Geckos. this list goes all over and most places
          > > have native Gex.
          > > I still don't undestand how you could be cruel to any Gex.
          > > What harm are they causing besides eating cocroaches
          > > I have Robust Velvet gex around my home
          > > May be one of the inexperience keepers may think
          > > it is fine to damage any Gex for feeding purpose!
          > >
          > > It is not legal to feed your reptiles on Gex tails
          > > in NSW anyway
          > > Not sure about Darwin I guess there a territory
          > > and not part of Aus
          > > And I don't have the right type of hat YE HA
          > >
          > > Brad
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: "Lori" <lemurgrrl@...>
          > > To: <australianherps@yahoogroups.com>
          > > Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 9:26 PM
          > > Subject: Re: [australianherps] FW: Welcome to australianherps
          > >
          > >
          > > > But I say go ahead and sacrifice one of the plentiful (and
          >non-indigenous)
          > > > Asian house geckoes that live all over the Darwin area!
          > > >
          > > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > > From: "Brad" <bradmc@...>
          > > > To: <australianherps@yahoogroups.com>
          > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 5:35 PM
          > > > Subject: Re: [australianherps] FW: Welcome to australianherps
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > > An amazing Gecko would be better off
          > > > > keeping his tail. :-(
          > > > >
          > > > > A gecko lover
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > > > From: "Jane Wilson" <jwilson@...>
          > > > > To: <australianherps@yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 4:52 PM
          > > > > Subject: Re: [australianherps] FW: Welcome to australianherps
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > > Hi Darren
          > > > > > thanks for the info - we might try some fuzzie mice or I have been
          > > > advised
          > > > > to get the tail from a gecko that will bounce about and attract the
          > > > snake.He
          > > > > has only been with us for 5 days so I guess he will take some time
          >to
          > > > > settle. What a placid temprement these little snakes have he is only
          > > > 32grams
          > > > > and and about 40cm long. I am scared of them but my daughter laura
          >just
          > > > > loves it.
          > > > > > Any other advice will be gratefully accepted
          > > > > > Jane
          > > > > > ps I am putting half of his enclosure under a heater pad at night
          >as
          > > he
          > > > is
          > > > > cold as in the morning.
          > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > > > > From: Darren
          > > > > > To: australianherps@yahoogroups.com
          > > > > > Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 9:03 PM
          > > > > > Subject: Re: [australianherps] FW: Welcome to australianherps
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > G`day Jane,
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I too am also new to the group and owner of a Childrens python.I
          > > > bought
          > > > > my snake and the enclosure together from a private seller. The
          >enclosure
          > > > had
          > > > > nothing in it other than 2 x 40w bulbs, a small dog water bowl, a
          >small
          > > > > stick to climb on and a small hide box.
          > > > > > I couldn`t get him to eat for the first 6 weeks I had him.
          > > > > > I went and bought some substrate bark, put in 2 more sticks,
          > > invested
          > > > in
          > > > > some decent lighting (60w dayglobe, on a timer) a heating element
          >with
          > > a
          > > > > thermostat, 3 small rocks, half a hollow log and put in a smaller
          >water
          > > > bowl
          > > > > ( a lid off a large peanut butter jar).
          > > > > > Not only was it a more natural sort of environment but the
          > > > temperatures
          > > > > are more constant (24 at night to about 32 mid to late afternoon)
          >and
          >he
          > > > > began eating, all I do now is defrost a pinky or fuzzy every 5-10
          >days
          > > and
          > > > > place it on one of the rocks and within 20 minutes he finds and eats
          >it.
          > > > > > He has also shed his skin, don`t see him much during the day
          >(likes
          > > to
          > > > > hide in the bark under the light or under the log) but mostly comes
          >out
          > > > > after the lights are off.
          > > > > > I`ve done a bit of research and found they are more of a
          >nocturnal
          > > > > snake, I think that sort of puts off beginners because mostly they
          > > aren`t
          > > > > the most active snake to look at, but I reckon they are great.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Cheers,
          > > > > > Darren
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
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          > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT
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          >Service.
          > > > > >
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        • retikul8
          jane ,, oh yes what price a worthless exotic gecko tail that will grow again anyway, Compared to the life and well being of 1 of our own Priceless Native
          Message 4 of 23 , Sep 1, 2003
            jane ,,
            oh yes what price a worthless exotic gecko tail that will grow again anyway, Compared to the life and well being of 1 of our own Priceless Native Australian Reptiles that we love so much ,,And what we more than likely paid real good australian $$$$$$ for,,,
            BB,,,,
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Jane Wilson
            To: australianherps@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 4:15 PM
            Subject: Re: [australianherps] Re: Feeding Gecko tails


            To Brad
            Yes this person does reside in Darwin (my name is Jane) and the Gex are not tortured they are picked up drop their tails which are rubbed over dead mice for snakes who are hesitant to feed it is not done repeatedly only a couple of times and the non native species of gecko that is used runs off to find a smaller native resident gecko to beat up immediately after. I also must stress that I do not practice this form of feeding it was merely suggested to me.
            Jane.
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Brad
            To: australianherps@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 7:48 AM
            Subject: Re: [australianherps] Re: Feeding Gecko tails


            Thanks for clarifing that for me Grant
            Cheers Brad
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "baritji2001" <goannafive@...>
            To: <australianherps@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 9:31 PM
            Subject: [australianherps] Re: Feeding Gecko tails


            > Hi Brad
            > Asian house geckos Hemidactylus frenatus do in fact cause problems,
            > particularly with one of our natives, Gehyra australis. They are far
            > more successful than their native counterpart and have pushed them
            > out in many areas around Darwin.
            > Cheers Grant Husband
            >
            > --- In australianherps@yahoogroups.com, "Brad" <bradmc@h...> wrote:
            > > Can't believe what you say.
            > > Is this person in Darwin ?
            > > Not every one has access to non indiginous
            > > Geckos. this list goes all over and most places
            > > have native Gex.
            > > I still don't undestand how you could be cruel to any Gex.
            > > What harm are they causing besides eating cocroaches
            > > I have Robust Velvet gex around my home
            > > May be one of the inexperience keepers may think
            > > it is fine to damage any Gex for feeding purpose!
            > >
            > > It is not legal to feed your reptiles on Gex tails
            > > in NSW anyway
            > > Not sure about Darwin I guess there a territory
            > > and not part of Aus
            > > And I don't have the right type of hat YE HA
            > >
            > > Brad
            > >
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: "Lori" <lemurgrrl@h...>
            > > To: <australianherps@yahoogroups.com>
            > > Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 9:26 PM
            > > Subject: Re: [australianherps] FW: Welcome to australianherps
            > >
            > >
            > > > But I say go ahead and sacrifice one of the plentiful (and non-
            > indigenous)
            > > > Asian house geckoes that live all over the Darwin area!
            > > >
            > > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > > From: "Brad" <bradmc@h...>
            > > > To: <australianherps@yahoogroups.com>
            > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 5:35 PM
            > > > Subject: Re: [australianherps] FW: Welcome to australianherps
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > > An amazing Gecko would be better off
            > > > > keeping his tail. :-(
            > > > >
            > > > > A gecko lover
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > > > From: "Jane Wilson" <jwilson@o...>
            > > > > To: <australianherps@yahoogroups.com>
            > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 4:52 PM
            > > > > Subject: Re: [australianherps] FW: Welcome to australianherps
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > > Hi Darren
            > > > > > thanks for the info - we might try some fuzzie mice or I have
            > been
            > > > advised
            > > > > to get the tail from a gecko that will bounce about and attract
            > the
            > > > snake.He
            > > > > has only been with us for 5 days so I guess he will take some
            > time to
            > > > > settle. What a placid temprement these little snakes have he is
            > only
            > > > 32grams
            > > > > and and about 40cm long. I am scared of them but my daughter
            > laura just
            > > > > loves it.
            > > > > > Any other advice will be gratefully accepted
            > > > > > Jane
            > > > > > ps I am putting half of his enclosure under a heater pad at
            > night as
            > > he
            > > > is
            > > > > cold as in the morning.
            > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > > > > From: Darren
            > > > > > To: australianherps@yahoogroups.com
            > > > > > Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 9:03 PM
            > > > > > Subject: Re: [australianherps] FW: Welcome to
            > australianherps
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > G`day Jane,
            > > > > >
            > > > > > I too am also new to the group and owner of a Childrens
            > python.I
            > > > bought
            > > > > my snake and the enclosure together from a private seller. The
            > enclosure
            > > > had
            > > > > nothing in it other than 2 x 40w bulbs, a small dog water bowl,
            > a small
            > > > > stick to climb on and a small hide box.
            > > > > > I couldn`t get him to eat for the first 6 weeks I had him.
            > > > > > I went and bought some substrate bark, put in 2 more sticks,
            > > invested
            > > > in
            > > > > some decent lighting (60w dayglobe, on a timer) a heating
            > element with
            > > a
            > > > > thermostat, 3 small rocks, half a hollow log and put in a
            > smaller water
            > > > bowl
            > > > > ( a lid off a large peanut butter jar).
            > > > > > Not only was it a more natural sort of environment but the
            > > > temperatures
            > > > > are more constant (24 at night to about 32 mid to late
            > afternoon) and he
            > > > > began eating, all I do now is defrost a pinky or fuzzy every 5-
            > 10 days
            > > and
            > > > > place it on one of the rocks and within 20 minutes he finds and
            > eats it.
            > > > > > He has also shed his skin, don`t see him much during the
            > day (likes
            > > to
            > > > > hide in the bark under the light or under the log) but mostly
            > comes out
            > > > > after the lights are off.
            > > > > > I`ve done a bit of research and found they are more of a
            > nocturnal
            > > > > snake, I think that sort of puts off beginners because mostly
            > they
            > > aren`t
            > > > > the most active snake to look at, but I reckon they are great.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Cheers,
            > > > > > Darren
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
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            > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            > Service.
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            > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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          • sxereturn
            I m just going to add my own 2 cents worth here. What s really getting to me is 2 things. 1 - People refering to Asian House Geckoes as worthless . This is
            Message 5 of 23 , Sep 1, 2003
              I'm just going to add my own 2 cents worth here.

              What's really getting to me is 2 things.

              1 - People refering to Asian House Geckoes as "worthless". This is
              really pathetic. I think it's a given that we all love reptiles. This
              reptile was introduced BY US. Why then, should it cop the punishment?
              They aren't doing any harm. In my area (Brisbane)I had NEVER seen a
              wild gecko until these guys came. And as someone stated in a previous
              post, it's unlikely they are competing with other species.

              So they are NOT "worthless". Yes, they are introduced. Yes, they are
              a reptile. No, they don't deserve to be treated with any less respect
              than any other, native reptile.

              2 - People thinking it is OK to stress a gecko into dropping its
              tail. Yes, it is a natural response, but from the little I know about
              geckoes, there's no way it can be good. Infections etc anyone?

              There's lots of other ways to get your snake to feed. Have you
              brained pinkies? Hell, the snakes only been in the enclosure for 4
              days. Try it again in 2 weeks time. I've only had one snake feed
              within the first week of a new home...


              -Jonno
              sxereturn@...
            • jason
              I love all natives, but if its feral its got to go! Jason Lapins Subject: Re: [australianherps] Feeding Gecko tails ... they ... doing ... you ... in ... to
              Message 6 of 23 , Sep 1, 2003
                I love all natives, but if its feral its got to go!
                Jason Lapins


                Subject: Re: [australianherps] Feeding Gecko tails


                > Yes, Jane is in Darwin. Yes, non-indigenous Asian geckoes are harmful -
                they
                > out-compete native geckoes, for one thing. And no, I'm not saying to be
                > "cruel" to them - don't torture them to death or anything. But eliminating
                > non-native geckoes is no different to shooting pigs or rabbits or fixes or
                > god forbid, killing cane toads, they're an introduced species that are
                doing
                > harm to native species and don't belong here. If you could step back from
                > your overly-emotional gut feelings about it and be reasonable, I'm sure
                you
                > would agree. Oh, and you can keep your irrational prejudices about the
                > Northern Territory to yourself, as well. Breathing all the smoke and smog
                in
                > NSW must be getting to ya, eh? ;)
                >
                > Cheers from the Top End,
                > Lori
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Brad" <bradmc@...>
                > To: <australianherps@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 9:45 AM
                > Subject: [australianherps] Feeding Gecko tails
                >
                >
                > > Can't believe what you say.
                > > Is this person in Darwin ?
                > > Not every one has access to non indiginous
                > > Geckos. this list goes all over and most places
                > > have native Gex.
                > > I still don't undestand how you could be cruel to any Gex.
                > > What harm are they causing besides eating cocroaches
                > > I have Robust Velvet gex around my home
                > > May be one of the inexperience keepers may think
                > > it is fine to damage any Gex for feeding purpose!
                > >
                > > It is not legal to feed your reptiles on Gex tails
                > > in NSW anyway
                > > Not sure about Darwin I guess there a territory
                > > and not part of Aus
                > > And I don't have the right type of hat YE HA
                > >
                > > Brad
                > >
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: "Lori" <lemurgrrl@...>
                > > To: <australianherps@yahoogroups.com>
                > > Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 9:26 PM
                > > Subject: Re: [australianherps] FW: Welcome to australianherps
                > >
                > >
                > > > But I say go ahead and sacrifice one of the plentiful (and
                > non-indigenous)
                > > > Asian house geckoes that live all over the Darwin area!
                > > >
                > > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > > From: "Brad" <bradmc@...>
                > > > To: <australianherps@yahoogroups.com>
                > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 5:35 PM
                > > > Subject: Re: [australianherps] FW: Welcome to australianherps
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > > An amazing Gecko would be better off
                > > > > keeping his tail. :-(
                > > > >
                > > > > A gecko lover
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > > > From: "Jane Wilson" <jwilson@...>
                > > > > To: <australianherps@yahoogroups.com>
                > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 4:52 PM
                > > > > Subject: Re: [australianherps] FW: Welcome to australianherps
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > > Hi Darren
                > > > > > thanks for the info - we might try some fuzzie mice or I have been
                > > > advised
                > > > > to get the tail from a gecko that will bounce about and attract the
                > > > snake.He
                > > > > has only been with us for 5 days so I guess he will take some time
                to
                > > > > settle. What a placid temprement these little snakes have he is only
                > > > 32grams
                > > > > and and about 40cm long. I am scared of them but my daughter laura
                > just
                > > > > loves it.
                > > > > > Any other advice will be gratefully accepted
                > > > > > Jane
                > > > > > ps I am putting half of his enclosure under a heater pad at night
                as
                > > he
                > > > is
                > > > > cold as in the morning.
                > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > > > > From: Darren
                > > > > > To: australianherps@yahoogroups.com
                > > > > > Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 9:03 PM
                > > > > > Subject: Re: [australianherps] FW: Welcome to australianherps
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > G`day Jane,
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I too am also new to the group and owner of a Childrens python.I
                > > > bought
                > > > > my snake and the enclosure together from a private seller. The
                > enclosure
                > > > had
                > > > > nothing in it other than 2 x 40w bulbs, a small dog water bowl, a
                > small
                > > > > stick to climb on and a small hide box.
                > > > > > I couldn`t get him to eat for the first 6 weeks I had him.
                > > > > > I went and bought some substrate bark, put in 2 more sticks,
                > > invested
                > > > in
                > > > > some decent lighting (60w dayglobe, on a timer) a heating element
                > with
                > > a
                > > > > thermostat, 3 small rocks, half a hollow log and put in a smaller
                > water
                > > > bowl
                > > > > ( a lid off a large peanut butter jar).
                > > > > > Not only was it a more natural sort of environment but the
                > > > temperatures
                > > > > are more constant (24 at night to about 32 mid to late afternoon)
                and
                > he
                > > > > began eating, all I do now is defrost a pinky or fuzzy every 5-10
                days
                > > and
                > > > > place it on one of the rocks and within 20 minutes he finds and eats
                > it.
                > > > > > He has also shed his skin, don`t see him much during the day
                > (likes
                > > to
                > > > > hide in the bark under the light or under the log) but mostly comes
                > out
                > > > > after the lights are off.
                > > > > > I`ve done a bit of research and found they are more of a
                nocturnal
                > > > > snake, I think that sort of puts off beginners because mostly they
                > > aren`t
                > > > > the most active snake to look at, but I reckon they are great.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Cheers,
                > > > > > Darren
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT
                > > > > >
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                > > http://www.cafepress.com/rajohn1
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                > Service.
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                > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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                > > >
                > > >
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                > > > Green Python merchandise available at http://www.cafepress.com/rajohn1
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Green Python merchandise available at http://www.cafepress.com/rajohn1
                > >
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > Green Python merchandise available at http://www.cafepress.com/rajohn1
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
              • Jane Wilson
                Got the snake to eat last night after only being in the enclosure for a week so was glad...seems the gecko tail saga has caused some backlash... you will be
                Message 7 of 23 , Sep 1, 2003
                  Got the snake to eat last night after only being in the enclosure for a week so was glad...seems the gecko tail saga has caused some backlash... you will be happy to know it ate a pinky-with no help from any gecko.
                  Jane
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: sxereturn
                  To: australianherps@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 7:02 PM
                  Subject: [australianherps] Re: Feeding Gecko tails


                  I'm just going to add my own 2 cents worth here.

                  What's really getting to me is 2 things.

                  1 - People refering to Asian House Geckoes as "worthless". This is
                  really pathetic. I think it's a given that we all love reptiles. This
                  reptile was introduced BY US. Why then, should it cop the punishment?
                  They aren't doing any harm. In my area (Brisbane)I had NEVER seen a
                  wild gecko until these guys came. And as someone stated in a previous
                  post, it's unlikely they are competing with other species.

                  So they are NOT "worthless". Yes, they are introduced. Yes, they are
                  a reptile. No, they don't deserve to be treated with any less respect
                  than any other, native reptile.

                  2 - People thinking it is OK to stress a gecko into dropping its
                  tail. Yes, it is a natural response, but from the little I know about
                  geckoes, there's no way it can be good. Infections etc anyone?

                  There's lots of other ways to get your snake to feed. Have you
                  brained pinkies? Hell, the snakes only been in the enclosure for 4
                  days. Try it again in 2 weeks time. I've only had one snake feed
                  within the first week of a new home...


                  -Jonno
                  sxereturn@...



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                • retikul8
                  OH GEE GOLLY GOSH ,, it won,t be long before some people will be complaining about cows been milked or hens been kept to lay eggs ,,or bee,s in hives for honey
                  Message 8 of 23 , Sep 1, 2003
                    OH GEE GOLLY GOSH ,,
                    it won,t be long before some people will be complaining about cows been milked or hens been kept to lay eggs ,,or bee,s in hives for honey ,,,,In my opinion one does what one has to do in order to survive ,,or see survival,,hey get ya priorities in order our natives come first
                    BB,,
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: sxereturn
                    To: australianherps@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 7:32 PM
                    Subject: [australianherps] Re: Feeding Gecko tails


                    I'm just going to add my own 2 cents worth here.

                    What's really getting to me is 2 things.

                    1 - People refering to Asian House Geckoes as "worthless". This is
                    really pathetic. I think it's a given that we all love reptiles. This
                    reptile was introduced BY US. Why then, should it cop the punishment?
                    They aren't doing any harm. In my area (Brisbane)I had NEVER seen a
                    wild gecko until these guys came. And as someone stated in a previous
                    post, it's unlikely they are competing with other species.

                    So they are NOT "worthless". Yes, they are introduced. Yes, they are
                    a reptile. No, they don't deserve to be treated with any less respect
                    than any other, native reptile.

                    2 - People thinking it is OK to stress a gecko into dropping its
                    tail. Yes, it is a natural response, but from the little I know about
                    geckoes, there's no way it can be good. Infections etc anyone?

                    There's lots of other ways to get your snake to feed. Have you
                    brained pinkies? Hell, the snakes only been in the enclosure for 4
                    days. Try it again in 2 weeks time. I've only had one snake feed
                    within the first week of a new home...


                    -Jonno
                    sxereturn@...



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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • retikul8
                    Sxereturn !!!! if you were starving to death and reptile was the only thing left to eat ,,What would you do ?? BB,, ... From: sxereturn To:
                    Message 9 of 23 , Sep 1, 2003
                      Sxereturn !!!!
                      if you were starving to death and reptile was the only thing left to eat ,,What would you do ??
                      BB,,
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: sxereturn
                      To: australianherps@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 7:32 PM
                      Subject: [australianherps] Re: Feeding Gecko tails


                      I'm just going to add my own 2 cents worth here.

                      What's really getting to me is 2 things.

                      1 - People refering to Asian House Geckoes as "worthless". This is
                      really pathetic. I think it's a given that we all love reptiles. This
                      reptile was introduced BY US. Why then, should it cop the punishment?
                      They aren't doing any harm. In my area (Brisbane)I had NEVER seen a
                      wild gecko until these guys came. And as someone stated in a previous
                      post, it's unlikely they are competing with other species.

                      So they are NOT "worthless". Yes, they are introduced. Yes, they are
                      a reptile. No, they don't deserve to be treated with any less respect
                      than any other, native reptile.

                      2 - People thinking it is OK to stress a gecko into dropping its
                      tail. Yes, it is a natural response, but from the little I know about
                      geckoes, there's no way it can be good. Infections etc anyone?

                      There's lots of other ways to get your snake to feed. Have you
                      brained pinkies? Hell, the snakes only been in the enclosure for 4
                      days. Try it again in 2 weeks time. I've only had one snake feed
                      within the first week of a new home...


                      -Jonno
                      sxereturn@...



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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ashley
                      Probably fry it with some garlic. Sxereturn !!!! if you were starving to death and reptile was the only thing left to eat , What would you do ?? BB,, [Non-text
                      Message 10 of 23 , Sep 1, 2003
                        Probably fry it with some garlic.

                        Sxereturn !!!!
                        if you were starving to death and reptile was the only thing left to eat ,
                        What would you do ??
                        BB,,


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • stephen.weir@csiro.au
                        I agree with Jonno, and I think you ve missed his point. I think what Jonno meant (and please correct me if I m wrong Jonno) was that all animals, and in our
                        Message 11 of 23 , Sep 1, 2003
                          I agree with Jonno, and I think you've missed his point.

                          I think what Jonno meant (and please correct me if I'm wrong Jonno) was that
                          all animals, and in our case reptiles, are worthy of decent treatment,
                          whether native or not. Sure their demise may be a good thing for the
                          environment, but does that justify cruelty? Just because it's feral doesn't
                          make it any less deserving of humane treatment. No, ferals don't belong
                          here, and yes, ferals should be eliminated/removed. But do it humanely.
                          And would you be so ready to condemn to death a colony of feral Fijian
                          Crested Iguanas "discovered" on an offshore Australian island? What about
                          feral wallabies exported back from NZ because they were extinct on the
                          Australian mainland?

                          I know that gecko tails are used by some keepers as a "renewable" food
                          source for difficult to keep species. But really, can you condone the
                          keeping of a species for pleasure when to do so involves cruelty to another
                          animal? Such difficult to keep species really aren't suited to hobbyist
                          keepers. I have no problem with mice and rats bred for the purpose of
                          becoming snake food, so long as they are humanely killed.

                          And on the issue of being feral, where do we draw the line? Is a feral
                          animal a locally non-indigenous animal, such as a Carpet Python in Sydney,
                          or do we talk about Australia as a whole single entity when referring to
                          natives? And just how long does a species have to live here before it's
                          considered native? Dingoes were brought here by humans roughly 5,000 years
                          ago, but cats were only brought here about 500 years ago.

                          Forget the feral/native splitting when it comes to deciding whether they
                          deserve humane treatment. The line is blurry. All animals deserve to be
                          treated humanely.

                          Steve

                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: retikul8 [mailto:retikul8@...]
                          > Sent: Tuesday, 2 September 2003 10:29
                          > To: australianherps@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [australianherps] Re: Feeding Gecko tails
                          >
                          >
                          > OH GEE GOLLY GOSH ,,
                          > it won,t be long before some people will be complaining about
                          > cows been milked or hens been kept to lay eggs ,,or bee,s in
                          > hives for honey ,,,,In my opinion one does what one has to do
                          > in order to survive ,,or see survival,,hey get ya priorities
                          > in order our natives come first
                          > BB,,
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: sxereturn
                          > To: australianherps@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 7:32 PM
                          > Subject: [australianherps] Re: Feeding Gecko tails
                          >
                          >
                          > I'm just going to add my own 2 cents worth here.
                          >
                          > What's really getting to me is 2 things.
                          >
                          > 1 - People refering to Asian House Geckoes as "worthless". This is
                          > really pathetic. I think it's a given that we all love
                          > reptiles. This
                          > reptile was introduced BY US. Why then, should it cop the
                          > punishment?
                          > They aren't doing any harm. In my area (Brisbane)I had NEVER seen a
                          > wild gecko until these guys came. And as someone stated in
                          > a previous
                          > post, it's unlikely they are competing with other species.
                          >
                          > So they are NOT "worthless". Yes, they are introduced. Yes,
                          > they are
                          > a reptile. No, they don't deserve to be treated with any
                          > less respect
                          > than any other, native reptile.
                          >
                          > 2 - People thinking it is OK to stress a gecko into dropping its
                          > tail. Yes, it is a natural response, but from the little I
                          > know about
                          > geckoes, there's no way it can be good. Infections etc anyone?
                          >
                          > There's lots of other ways to get your snake to feed. Have you
                          > brained pinkies? Hell, the snakes only been in the enclosure for 4
                          > days. Try it again in 2 weeks time. I've only had one snake feed
                          > within the first week of a new home...
                          >
                          >
                          > -Jonno
                          > sxereturn@...
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                          > ADVERTISEMENT
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          http://www.cafepress.com/rajohn1


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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                        • Peter Buckley
                          Good one Bill. Eat the chicken or I ll kill the chicken. Peter ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web
                          Message 12 of 23 , Sep 1, 2003
                            Good one Bill. Eat the chicken or I'll kill the
                            chicken.
                            Peter
                            --- retikul8 <retikul8@...> wrote:
                            > Sxereturn !!!!
                            > if you were starving to death and reptile was the
                            > only thing left to eat ,,What would you do ??
                            > BB,,
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: sxereturn
                            > To: australianherps@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 7:32 PM
                            > Subject: [australianherps] Re: Feeding Gecko tails
                            >
                            >
                            > I'm just going to add my own 2 cents worth here.
                            >
                            > What's really getting to me is 2 things.
                            >
                            > 1 - People refering to Asian House Geckoes as
                            > "worthless". This is
                            > really pathetic. I think it's a given that we all
                            > love reptiles. This
                            > reptile was introduced BY US. Why then, should it
                            > cop the punishment?
                            > They aren't doing any harm. In my area (Brisbane)I
                            > had NEVER seen a
                            > wild gecko until these guys came. And as someone
                            > stated in a previous
                            > post, it's unlikely they are competing with other
                            > species.
                            >
                            > So they are NOT "worthless". Yes, they are
                            > introduced. Yes, they are
                            > a reptile. No, they don't deserve to be treated
                            > with any less respect
                            > than any other, native reptile.
                            >
                            > 2 - People thinking it is OK to stress a gecko
                            > into dropping its
                            > tail. Yes, it is a natural response, but from the
                            > little I know about
                            > geckoes, there's no way it can be good. Infections
                            > etc anyone?
                            >
                            > There's lots of other ways to get your snake to
                            > feed. Have you
                            > brained pinkies? Hell, the snakes only been in the
                            > enclosure for 4
                            > days. Try it again in 2 weeks time. I've only had
                            > one snake feed
                            > within the first week of a new home...
                            >
                            >
                            > -Jonno
                            > sxereturn@...
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                            > ADVERTISEMENT
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Green Python merchandise available at
                            > http://www.cafepress.com/rajohn1
                            >
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                            > Terms of Service.
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                            > removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                            >
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                          • Ashley
                            This is what makes me really angry about Cane Toads, the number of times I have heard people say who they love to kill them with golf clubs or by spraying them
                            Message 13 of 23 , Sep 1, 2003
                              This is what makes me really angry about Cane Toads, the number of times I
                              have heard people say who they love to kill them with golf clubs or by
                              spraying them with Dettol. These animals are here by no fault of their own
                              and although they must be killed they deserve to be killed humanely.
                              I get some absolute monsters in my backyard and it really hurts me to have
                              to kill them because I actually like them as an animal. I have killed in the
                              region of 150-200 and not once has it bought me any pleasure.
                              Kill ferals whenever possible but do it humanely,

                              By the way where is this offshore Australian Island exactly ? :-)

                              Ashley


                              I agree with Jonno, and I think you've missed his point.

                              I think what Jonno meant (and please correct me if I'm wrong Jonno) was that
                              all animals, and in our case reptiles, are worthy of decent treatment,
                              whether native or not. Sure their demise may be a good thing for the
                              environment, but does that justify cruelty? Just because it's feral doesn't
                              make it any less deserving of humane treatment. No, ferals don't belong
                              here, and yes, ferals should be eliminated/removed. But do it humanely.
                              And would you be so ready to condemn to death a colony of feral Fijian
                              Crested Iguanas "discovered" on an offshore Australian island? What about
                              feral wallabies exported back from NZ because they were extinct on the
                              Australian mainland?

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • John Deutscher
                              Hi All, I m really confused... my ignorance must be extreme. Can someone explain to me why it is more cruel to feed a gecko (a pest species) than a mouse
                              Message 14 of 23 , Sep 2, 2003
                                Hi All,

                                I'm really confused... my ignorance must be extreme. Can someone explain to
                                me why it is more cruel to feed a gecko (a pest species) than a mouse
                                (another pest species) to a snake? I thought mice were also animals... cows,
                                pigs, chooks and all the others I eat too for that matter. Is it worth
                                stressing over?

                                -John

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                              • stephen.weir@csiro.au
                                John, Now I m confused :) I looked back but couldn t find where someone wrote that it s more cruel to feed a gecko than a mouse. The discussion is about
                                Message 15 of 23 , Sep 2, 2003
                                  John,

                                  Now I'm confused :) I looked back but couldn't find where someone wrote
                                  that it's more cruel to feed a gecko than a mouse.

                                  The discussion is about feeding gecko tails. In this context, it's usually
                                  far quicker to dispatch a mouse through cervical dislocation than to cause a
                                  gecko to drop it's tail.

                                  As it turned out the gecko tails initially asked about were to be
                                  "harvested" from the floor after gecko fights.

                                  Steve

                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: John Deutscher [mailto:extatosoma@...]
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, 3 September 2003 13:23
                                  > To: australianherps@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [australianherps] Re: Re: Feeding Gecko tails
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Hi All,
                                  >
                                  > I'm really confused... my ignorance must be extreme. Can
                                  > someone explain to
                                  > me why it is more cruel to feed a gecko (a pest species) than a mouse
                                  > (another pest species) to a snake? I thought mice were also
                                  > animals... cows,
                                  > pigs, chooks and all the others I eat too for that matter. Is
                                  > it worth
                                  > stressing over?
                                  >
                                  > -John
                                • Peter Buckley
                                  I heard of a woman who harvested mouse tails with a carving knife. Peter ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free,
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Sep 2, 2003
                                    I heard of a woman who harvested mouse tails with a
                                    carving knife.
                                    Peter

                                    --- stephen.weir@... wrote:
                                    > John,
                                    >
                                    > Now I'm confused :) I looked back but couldn't find
                                    > where someone wrote
                                    > that it's more cruel to feed a gecko than a mouse.
                                    >
                                    > The discussion is about feeding gecko tails. In
                                    > this context, it's usually
                                    > far quicker to dispatch a mouse through cervical
                                    > dislocation than to cause a
                                    > gecko to drop it's tail.
                                    >
                                    > As it turned out the gecko tails initially asked
                                    > about were to be
                                    > "harvested" from the floor after gecko fights.
                                    >
                                    > Steve
                                    >
                                    > > -----Original Message-----
                                    > > From: John Deutscher
                                    > [mailto:extatosoma@...]
                                    > > Sent: Wednesday, 3 September 2003 13:23
                                    > > To: australianherps@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Subject: [australianherps] Re: Re: Feeding Gecko
                                    > tails
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Hi All,
                                    > >
                                    > > I'm really confused... my ignorance must be
                                    > extreme. Can
                                    > > someone explain to
                                    > > me why it is more cruel to feed a gecko (a pest
                                    > species) than a mouse
                                    > > (another pest species) to a snake? I thought mice
                                    > were also
                                    > > animals... cows,
                                    > > pigs, chooks and all the others I eat too for that
                                    > matter. Is
                                    > > it worth
                                    > > stressing over?
                                    > >
                                    > > -John
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                    >
                                    > Green Python merchandise available at
                                    > http://www.cafepress.com/rajohn1
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                    > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    >
                                    >


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