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[attila] Re: Women and work

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  • Joanna Geary
    ... Thank you very much, but watch it with the male influence comments!! Unfortunately I actually don t have a brother and hardly have a father in my life i.e
    Message 1 of 26 , Sep 1, 1999
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      > ><snip - rest amply answered by Joanna (not bad for "idealistic" 18 year
      >old
      > >- maybe her dad or older brother helped her)>
      >
      >What worries me is that in many ways, she has proved herself far more adult
      >than any of her elder peers!
      >
      Thank you very much, but watch it with the male influence comments!!
      Unfortunately I actually don't have a brother and hardly have a father in my
      life i.e the common or garden fully functional 'disfunctional' family (may
      act as way of an explanation to many!)

      ______________________________________________________
    • Iain Monks
      ... such ... I agree with that fully, what started the average woman debate was the complaint that certain professions are dominated by men whilst others are
      Message 2 of 26 , Sep 1, 1999
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        >Firstly I believe, as you, that it is simply unjustified to employ both a
        >man and a woman for one job simply to prove a bizarre point in equal
        >opportunities.
        >My point was that each woman is an individual who may have the ability to
        >cope with such a job - or may not. If she does, and wishes to apply for
        such
        >a position, I believe that she shouldn't be hindered by her gender and
        >should be considered on an equal footing as any man applying.

        I agree with that fully, what started the 'average woman' debate was the
        complaint that certain professions are dominated by men whilst others are
        dominated by women, I proposed a reason for this, and was quite happy to
        stand up to the flack it caused.

        >I am not
        >saying that women should be forced to into the jobs that have been
        >traditionally seen as male work, simply that they should not be discouraged
        >from entering any field they choose if they are capable of doing the work
        >involved.

        A friend of my mother, followed her father into the engineering trade, going
        through university, and competing as a equal, worked as an engineer and
        excelled at it. The only prefferential treatment necessary was with regards
        to toilet facilities. A "feminist" social worker on hearing this was
        outraged that the woman wasn't given better treatment/facilities than the
        men to make up for her being a woman in a mans environment.

        The only way I can see for true equality to exist is to be a proper feminist
        like the former, and shoot the latter on sight :o)

        >This is just as applicable to men as I would imagine there are men
        >in this world that would be just as unsuitable as some women for work
        >involving heavy lifting.


        Especially after ten pints and a curry :o)

        >I totally agree. Although I have completed my A levels and obtained a place
        >at university I am actually not starting my course until the year 2000. The
        >whole concept of walking out of one educational establishment into another
        >was frankly suffocating.

        When you get there, take a long look at the people that have come straight
        from school, you may find it surprising how nieve and idealistic they seem,
        as I said, a year makes a huge difference.

        >I have literally arrived back from a month deciding
        >that I would never like to live in the USA (although the people I met there
        >and places I have seen have all taught me invaluable lessons).


        I've never yet met an American that I would consider completely sane, (but
        this may have something to do with the fact that most of the ones I have met
        have been Morris Dancers) personally, I blame the fact that the country was
        started by a bunch of religious fanatics :o)

        >I seem to remember something to the point that the
        >more variables you introduce into a range, the less valid the average
        >becomes.

        The idea of an average (or mean) is to even out the extremes, so I should
        think that a larger population will cause a more accurate overall result, as
        individual results will tend to cluster around the average rather than being
        on the extremes of the range.

        >While I'm not disputing that if you take all the women in the
        >world, add together all their capabilities and divide that by the number of
        >women you would get an average. What I would like to point out is that the
        >average woman is rather elusive

        While a total Ms Average would be extremely elusive, a woman with average
        strength wouldn't be too hard to find, the same with any of the elements we
        were discussing, and if you compare those averages with those of men you
        will see differences that are overall characteristic of gender.

        >and that as long as individuals remain
        >varied in their abilities and strengths then we must judge on the
        individual
        >and not the gender. This, obviously, goes for both sexes.


        Yeah, what seems to have got lost somewhere in this argument is that I was
        pointing out that some jobs will have a tendancy towards one gender or
        another, not that jobs should be doled out according to sex.

        >The eternally-learning, aspiring radical feminist!! (or maybe not)
        >(Will be hitting the north late in the year 2000 - watch out Iain!)


        Where abouts?? and how large a crater are you intending to make? :o)

        Iain Monks
        (The Vikings, Hrafnsdale Herred)
        http://www.zen.co.uk/home/page/iain.monks/hrafnsdale.html
      • David Arno
        ... Um, because I was being sarcastic. It was supposed to be a parody of Iain s position. Presumably it didn t work. ... XXY is actually quite common. But
        Message 3 of 26 , Sep 2, 1999
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          Alley wrote:

          >
          > > Clearly from this we can
          > deduce that she is
          > >far more of a man than I am and that I would make a far more
          > caring mother
          > >than she ever could.
          >
          > Clearly? How dare you make a statement like that?
          Um, because I was being sarcastic. It was supposed to be a parody of Iain's
          position. Presumably it didn't work.

          > >Last time I looked into the subject, there were some dozen
          > or so "sex"
          > >chromosome combinations in humans of which XX and XY are but two.
          >
          > OK - I've only heard of XX, XY and XXY which is extremely
          > rare - please
          > could you list the other 9 or so and the result of such combinations.
          >
          XXY is actually quite common. But anyway, since you asked...

          There are 7 common identified combinations in mammals:

          Normal two are XX and XY.
          Other 5 are:
          2A:XO
          2A:XXY
          2A:XXX
          3A:XXY
          3A:XXX

          The 2A indicates a diploid set of autosomes and 3A a triploid set (being
          made up of one haploid autosome and one diploid autosome).

          The gene that lies on the Y chromosome that triggers the growth of the
          testis is the testis-determining factor or TDF. Since mutations of the Y
          chromosome can lack the TDF gene then XY and XXY combinations can result in
          a female and mutant versions of the X chromosome carrying the TDF gene thus
          XX, XO and XXX combinations can give rise to males.

          This gives 14 potential combinations (F=female, M=male phenotype):

          2A:XX - F
          2A:XY - M
          2A:XO - F
          2A:XXX - F
          2A:XXY - M
          3A:XXX - F
          3A:XXY - M
          2A:XX(+TDF) - M
          2A:XY(-TDF) - F
          2A:XO(-TDF) - M
          2A:XXX(+TDF) - M
          2A:XXY(-TDF) - F
          3A:XXX(+TDF) - M
          3A:XXY(-TDF) - F

          However, only the XX, XY, XO, 2A:XXY and 2A:XXX combinations have ever been
          found in humans (i.e. the triploid autosome combinations do not occur) and
          so when the TDF gene is taken into account then there are 10 potential sex
          chromosome combinations to be found in humans. In addition though, very
          rare combinations such as XXYY, XXXY, XXXXY and XY/XXY can also occur
          bringing the figure back to 14. I'm not sure if any of these are only
          theoretical though. There may be more but I haven't come across them.

          Interestingly (or maybe not depending on your view), 1/700 men are XXY
          (known as Klinefelter's Syndrome) and 1/5,000 women XO(Turner's Syndrome)
          according to a Virginia University website
          (http://wsrv.clas.virginia.edu/~rjh9u/sexdet.html). There is evidence that
          some 95% of XO zygotes spontaneously abort which may explain the 700/5,000
          difference. Both of these (groups of) combinations gives rise to normally
          infertile people (which is part of the reason why they are identified as
          syndromes). XXX women are normally fertile in contrast. One last combination
          YO can occur but the resultant zygote always fails to develop.

          If you want to look into this subject in more detail then, in addition to
          the above mentioned web site, I extracted most of the information from the
          Open University Biology Form & Function book: "Development", edited by Brian
          Goodwin and published by Hodder & Stoughton which is alleged to be stocked
          by most university libraries.

          Apologies to everyone else who has been sent to sleep by this impromptu
          biology lesson.

          >
          > What worries me is that in many ways, she has proved herself
          > far more adult
          > than any of her elder peers!
          >
          Well I can only speak for myself in that I got bored of being an adult and
          decided it was far more fun to remain a big kid all my life...

          David Arno.
        • Iain Monks
          ... Reminds me of a friends comment about his life in re-enactment, I tried reality, and didn t like it
          Message 4 of 26 , Sep 2, 1999
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            >Well I can only speak for myself in that I got bored of being an adult and
            >decided it was far more fun to remain a big kid all my life...


            Reminds me of a friends comment about his life in re-enactment, "I tried
            reality, and didn't like it"
          • JBooth9192@aol.com
            Quite the opposite, in fact. Radical feminism, a strand of feminist
            Message 5 of 26 , Sep 3, 1999
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              << radical feminism has pushed too hard in saying that men and women are the
              same >>

              Quite the opposite, in fact. Radical feminism, a strand of feminist thought
              developed in the 70s and 80s, actually placed great emphasis on differences
              between men and women. They argued that feminists should place their faith in
              a 'special world of women', and that women were nurturing and men aggressive.
              They saw feminism as a struggle by all women against all men. Those that
              followed radical feminism to its natural conclusion became separatists.

              Socialist feminists, on the other hand, sought to explain how the
              subordination of women had developed socially and historically (rather than
              being biologically determined and therefore unchangeable), and, alongside
              building an autonomous women's movement, advocated women and men working
              together to overcome oppression and discrimination.

              Iain's views have more in common with radical feminism than he realises.

              Incidentally, I have followed the discussion on my abilities to work, be
              politically active and be a mother with great interest. Unfortunately, at
              only 3 months old, my son Alex is unable to contribute his opinion on my
              parenting skills (although he looks very contented at the moment). Without
              being arrogant, I think I am quite competent a being a railway station
              supervisor, a mother and an active socialist. You see, it's not a case of
              being one thing or another - 'like a man or like a woman'.

              Janine

              ------------------------------------------------------------

              Visit the Workers' Liberty website at
              http://workersliberty.org

              ------------------------------------------------------------

              Janine Booth, 47c Wadeson Street,
              Bethnal Green, London, E2 9DP
              0181-981-8065; 07957-217639

              ------------------------------------------------------------
            • Iain Monks
              ... in ... aggressive. ... I view radical feminists as the A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle brigade but who then decide that to be equal they
              Message 6 of 26 , Sep 3, 1999
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                >Quite the opposite, in fact. Radical feminism, a strand of feminist thought
                >developed in the 70s and 80s, actually placed great emphasis on differences
                >between men and women. They argued that feminists should place their faith
                in
                >a 'special world of women', and that women were nurturing and men
                aggressive.
                >They saw feminism as a struggle by all women against all men. Those that
                >followed radical feminism to its natural conclusion became separatists.


                I view radical feminists as the "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a
                bicycle" brigade but who then decide that to be equal they will need all
                these extra provisions because they are "only women."

                >Socialist feminists, on the other hand, sought to explain how the
                >subordination of women had developed socially and historically (rather than
                >being biologically determined and therefore unchangeable), and, alongside
                >building an autonomous women's movement, advocated women and men working
                >together to overcome oppression and discrimination.


                I certainly don't consider women biologically inferior, but I do consider
                them (on average) to have different strenghths and weaknesses to men.

                >Incidentally, I have followed the discussion on my abilities to work, be
                >politically active and be a mother with great interest.

                At no point have I questioned anyone's abilities as a worker, a parent, or
                a political nutter!!!!

                I believe it was you who complained that jobs like teaching and nursing were
                dominated by women, whilst jobs like engineering weren't. I think that the
                difference between the sexes plays a large part in this. I don't believe
                that your gender bars you from any job, just makes people in general tend
                towards one type of career over another.
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