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Re: Re: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Way Wipers Craftsman/Atlas 618

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  • Dennes Forsmo
    Hi Bruno, I dug out my thread gauge ( which I should have done originally rather than counting threads ) and agree with the half nut threads being 16 TPI so--
    Message 1 of 21 , Sep 15, 2013
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      Hi Bruno,

      I dug out my thread gauge ( which I should have done originally rather than counting threads ) and  agree with the half nut threads being 16 TPI

      so-- one lead distance is  1/16" = .0625"

      thanks for correction for other owners that are thinking of making wipers

      I'm still in MA so haven't integrated the parts you supplied me yet. 
      I have  to decide if lathe home base  will be in TN or MA

      enjoy  the other half of the the bottle  tonight.!!

      Best regards,

      Dennes


      On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 11:33 PM, <azbruno@...> wrote:
       

      Dennes,


      The lead screw is 16 TPI. Other than that, and accounting for the half bottle of wine I had with dinner tonight, I'd say your analysis is correct, understanding what I was trying to say before.


      On the other hand, it's so easy to completely remove the carriage to clean it all out, I don't feel I've missed anything by not having way wipers.


      -Bruno

      Bruno,

      I see your point.

      Seems to me that if the captured wiper thickness ( maybe .020 -.030?) + added washers add up to 1 lead screw lead distance then everything would be on track again ( just 1 lead screw lead to the right ) and operator and machine and thread dial would not know the difference.

      . I don't have the lead screw here with me but  measuring the half nut threads  I believe the lead screw is  14 TPI

      Can anyone confirm this?

      If lead screw is 14TPI then lead of one thread is  1/14= .0714" 
      So if the captured wiper metal thickness plus washers added  between carriage and left face or thread dial body  add up to .0714"  then the thread dial can't know the difference from having nothing captured since thread dial lateral position is just moved 1 thread further right with respect to carriage.

      In terms of precision required---  there is the slop in half nut accuracy to the lead screw and the thickness of index line on thread dial face ( probably at least  .010 -.020" combined ).

      So if thread dial is moved to the right by captured wiper metal thickness plus washers by .0714 +/- .010 every thing should line up to the operators eye when using threading dial.

      Does this sound right?

      If  I'm wrong on lead screw TPI for your lathe --- adjust for correct TPI.

      Hope this helps,

      Dennes Forsmo






      On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 11:14 AM, <azbruno@...> wrote:
       

      Although changing the thread dial position would not "invalidate" the threading operation, it would change the way the dial notches line up to the indicator, most likely making them out of alignment to where the half nuts would engage. You may need to add additional washers to compensate.


      -Bruno

      Hi 

      I have a 101.07301 6" lathe that I am restoring.

      In regard to way wipers

      I note that when I disassembled the carriage for cleaning the threading dial is held to carriage with just a single bolt. ( bolt is 1/4 -20 square head on my lathe ) 
      A sheet metal  wiper for the right front position might be able to "captured" between thread dial and carriage body ( don't know if the change in thread dial position by thickness of wiper sheet metal would invalidate threading operation or not -someone more expert than me could comment on this )  - or-- wiper could be attached without threading dial in place for operation when not threading

      Pics attached

      Hope this helps

      Dennes Forsmo


      On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 6:49 AM, James Adams <giemon23@...> wrote:
       

      Hello, I just got my first small hobby lathe, craftsman 101.07301. I am new to Atlas/Craftsman Lathes and so glad that I found this forum. I have used a South Bend 9a at work and larger lathes mostly for parts adjustment and polishing. The one thing I noticed is they all had way wipers. My Craftsman 6" does not. Also I have seen a few posts about oils but I still have a few questions.

      Here are my questions:
      1. Are way wipers necessary/recommended on the Atlas 6" lathe?
      2. Has anyone added way wipers to their 6" Atlas Lathe? If so could you give some recommendations about how to add them.
      3. Is it safe to use #10 Spindle oil on the Atlas spindle?

      Thanks for all the help!




    • my_noalias_alias
      Sorry for not replying, for whatever reason Yahoo has stopped sending daily digests to me --it will send individual emails though. Anyway I have a QC54 and I
      Message 2 of 21 , Sep 16, 2013
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        Sorry for not replying, for whatever reason Yahoo has stopped sending daily digests to me --it will send individual emails though.


        Anyway I have a QC54 and I can put one or two flat washers between the dial assembly and carriage, and it make not the slightest diff in cutting a thread using the line up marks as I always do. As long as it travels with the carriage and stays engaged with the lead screw it works fine for me. I guess YMMV as they say.



        --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

        Unfortunately, it does matter (assuming that the machine's threading dial is properly phased to begin with).  Try this.  With the machine not running and the threading dial engaged, use the carriage traverse handwheel to move the carriage to cause the threading dial to turn and line it up with say #1.  Engage the half nuts to confirm the threading dial is performing as it should.  Disengage the half nuts and move the carriage enough to rotate the threading dial 1/32nd of a turn.  Try to engage the half nuts.  They won't.  Now, loosen the square head bolt that secures the threading dial and as you loosen it, pull the dial away from the carriage enough to line the dial line (any line) with the fiduciary.  Try to engage the half nuts.  They of course still won't, yet the dial now says that they should.

        Note that the 1/32nd figure applies to the 10" and 12".  I'm not sure about the 6" as I've never had one.  The figure may be 1/16th.  But in any case, my point is that spacing the threading dial away from the carriage by a random amount will most likely cause problems.

        Robert Downs - Houston
        wa5cab dot com (Web Store)
        MVPA 9480


        In a message dated 09/13/2013 14:52:24 PM Central Daylight Time, ygroups@... writes:
        I'm not so sure about that. I don't think it would matter if the thread dial indicator was an inch or whatever to the right of the saddle, it would still be in time with the spindle and lead screw and all would work fine --I think.

        However as the bolt is there so one can save wear by a quick loosen and swing back of the thread dial &tightening the bolt, I'd think using it for a wiper mount wouldn't be very good, just from an operational viewpoint.

        --- In atlas_craftsma n@yahoogroups.com, <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

        Although changing the thread dial position would not "invalidate" the threading operation, it would change the way the dial notches line up to the indicator, most likely making them out of alignment to where the half nuts would engage. You may need to add additional washers to compensate.

        -Bruno


        --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

        Hi

        I have a 101.07301 6" lathe that I am restoring.


        In regard to way wipers


        I note that when I disassembled the carriage for cleaning the th reading dial is held to carriage with just a single bolt. ( bolt is 1/4 -20 square head on my lathe )
        A sheet metal  wiper for the right front position might be able to "captured" between thread dial and carriage body ( don't know if the change in thread dial position by thickness of wiper sheet metal would invalidate threading operation or not -someone more expert than me could comment on this )  - or-- wiper could be attached without threading dial in place for operation when not threading


        Pics attached


        Hope this helps


        Dennes Forsmo



        On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 6:49 AM, James Adams <giemon23@...> wrote:
          Hello, I just got my first small hobby lathe, craftsman 101.07301. I am new to Atlas/Craftsman Lathes and so glad that I found this forum. I have used a South Bend 9a at work and larger lathes mostly for parts adjustment and polishing. The one thing I noticed is they all had way wipers. My Craftsman 6" does not. Also I have seen a few posts about oils but I still have a few questions.

        Here are my questions:
        1. Are way wipers necessary/recommended on the Atlas 6" lathe?
        2. Has anyone added way wipers to their 6" Atlas Lathe? If so could you give some recommendations about how to add them.
        3. Is it safe to use #10 Spindle oil on the Atlas spindle?

        Thanks for all the help!



      • wa5cab
        Your flat washers must be 1/16th of a turn thick and the thread pitch an even number. Try it on 4.5 pitch. And insert the flat washer after you have made
        Message 3 of 21 , Sep 16, 2013
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          Your flat washers must be 1/16th of a turn thick and the thread pitch an even number.  Try it on 4.5" pitch.  And insert the flat washer after you have made two or three passes.

          Robert D.

          In a message dated 09/16/2013 19:14:05 PM Central Daylight Time, ygroups@... writes:
          Anyway I have a QC54 and I can put one or two flat washers between the dial assembly and carriage, and it make not the slightest diff in cutting a thread using the line up marks as I always do. As long as it travels with the carriage and stays engaged with the lead screw it works fine for me. I guess YMMV as they say.




          --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

          Unfortunately, it does matter (assuming that the machine's threading dial is properly phased to begin with).  Try this.  With th e machine not running and the threading dial engaged, use the carriage traverse handwheel to move the carriage to cause the threading dial to turn and line it up with say #1.  Engage the half nuts to confirm the threading dial is performing as it should.  Disengage the half nuts and move the carriage enough to rotate the threading dial 1/32nd of a turn.  Try to engage the half nuts.  They won't.  Now, loosen the square head bolt that secures the threading dial and as you loosen it, pull the dial away from the carriage enough to line the dial line (any line) with the fiduciary.  Try to engage the half nuts.  They of course still won't, yet the dial now says that they should.

          Note that the 1/32nd figure applies to the 10" and 12".  I'm not sure about the 6" as I've never had one.  The figure may be 1/16th.  But in any case, my point is that spacing the threading dial away from the carriage by a random amount will most likely cause problems.

          Robert Downs - Houston
          wa5cab dot com (Web Store)
          MVPA 9480


          In a message dated 09/13/2013 14:52:24 PM Central Daylight Time, ygroups@... writes:
          I'm not so sure about that. I don't think it would matter if the thread dial indicator was an inch or whatever to the right of the saddle, it would still be in time with the spindle and lead screw and all would work fine --I think.

          However as the bolt is there so one can save wear by a quick loosen and swing back of the thread dial &tightening the bolt, I'd think using it for a wiper mount wouldn't be very good, just from an operational viewpoint.

          --- In atlas_craftsma n@yahoogroups.com, <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

          Although changing the thread dial position would not "invalidate" the threading operation, it would change the way the dial notches line up to the indicator, most likely making them out of alignment to where the half nuts would engage. You may need to add additional washers to compensate.

          -Bruno





          Robert & Susan Downs - Houston
          wa5cab dot com (Web Store)
          MVPA 9480
        • jtiers
          Perhaps your half nuts are very worn, and slip in regardless. The theory of this is that the dial responds to the position of the carriage along the leadscrew,
          Message 4 of 21 , Sep 16, 2013
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            Perhaps your half nuts are very worn, and slip in regardless.
             
            The theory of this is that the dial responds to the position of the carriage along the leadscrew, modified by the rotation of the screw.    At some positions of the dial rotor, you should NOT be able to close the nuts, because the high points on the nut and screw will clash.   If the two are worn sufficiently, that is very hard to feel, and it may seem as if there is no difference.
             
            With good nuts and screw, it should be very crisp and obvious. It won't close, and then as the dial mark comes to the reference line, it will close if you are quick, then as the dial turns further, there will be another area where it will not close.  There should be a fairly obvious difference in dial position between one "magic closing position" and the next one.
             
            The whole idea of the dial is to alert you to the relative positions where the nuts will close correctly on the screw and to give you a marker so you can always close the nuts at one of the positions which will put the tool correctly in the groove of the thread being cut.
             
            JT
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 3:05 PM
            Subject: RE: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Way Wipers Craftsman/Atlas 618
             

            Anyway I have a QC54 and I can put one or two flat washers between the dial assembly and carriage, and it make not the slightest diff in cutting a thread using the line up marks as I always do. As long as it travels with the carriage and stays engaged with the lead screw it works fine for me. I guess YMMV as they say.


             
          • my_noalias_alias
            No it s not worn, I ve thought about this and come to the conclusion that we are ending up with differing results because we are starting from different
            Message 5 of 21 , Sep 16, 2013
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              No it's not worn, I've thought about this and come to the conclusion that we are ending up with differing results because we are starting from different places. 


              Let me explain how one sets this up.  When you have had the dial assembly --no matter what the offset, if you need or want one, is that you first (lathe not running) close the half nuts --move the carriage a bit if needed, then align the number 1 mark on the thread dial, then engage the thread dial gear with the lead screw, then tighten the assembly in place.


              And that's the correct way to set up a thread dial.


              Did we now arrive at the same page?



              --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              
              Perhaps your half nuts are very worn, and slip in regardless.
               
              The theory of this is that the dial responds to the position of the carriage along the leadscrew, modified by the rotation of the screw.    At some positions of the dial rotor, you should NOT be able to close the nuts, because the high points on the nut and screw will clash.   If the two are worn sufficiently, that is very hard to feel, and it may seem as if there is no difference.
               
              With good nuts and screw, it should be very crisp and obvious. It won't close, and then as the dial mark comes to the reference line, it will close if you are quick, then as the dial turns further, there will be another area where it will not close.  There should be a fairly obvious difference in dial position between one "magic closing position" and the next one.
               
              The whole idea of the dial is to alert you to the relative positions where the nuts will close correctly on the screw and to give you a marker so you can always close the nuts at one of the positions which will put the tool correctly in the groove of the thread being cut.
               
              JT
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 3:05 PM
              Subject: RE: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Way Wipers Craftsman/Atlas 618
               

              Anyway I have a QC54 and I can put one or two flat washers between the dial assembly and carriage, and it make not the slightest diff in cutting a thread using the line up marks as I always do. As long as it travels with the carriage and stays engaged with the lead screw it works fine for me. I guess YMMV as they say.


               
            • jtiers
              Nope... When you add washers/spacers under the dial assembly mounting, you move the dial relative to the carriage, and that changes the dial reading at the
              Message 6 of 21 , Sep 17, 2013
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                Nope...
                 
                When you add washers/spacers under the dial assembly mounting, you move the dial relative to the carriage, and that changes the dial reading at the point where the halfnuts engage.  If it was *at* the line before, it should be somewhat *off* the line now.   You should have to re-adjust.
                 
                If that does NOT happen, possibly you didn't actually put any spacers in, they were very thin and the difference isn't noticeable, you readjusted the dial after you did it, or the system is so sloppy that it makes no difference.  That slop can be from wear, improper assembly, other mechanical problems, etc. 
                 
                BTW, a quality dial assembly has the ability to loosen and re-adjust the dial on the shaft to align the marks.  Shouldn't be any need to slide the dial assembly around.  But maybe Atlas lathes don't have that.  My Atlas equipment does not include an Atlas branded lathe, so I have never examined the dial assembly up close.
                 
                JT
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 12:36 AM
                Subject: RE: Re: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Way Wipers Craftsman/Atlas 618

                No it's not worn, I've thought about this and come to the conclusion that we are ending up with differing results because we are starting from different places. 


                Let me explain how one sets this up.  When you have had the dial assembly --no matter what the offset, if you need or want one, is that you first (lathe not running) close the half nuts --move the carriage a bit if needed, then align the number 1 mark on the thread dial, then engage the thread dial gear with the lead screw, then tighten the assembly in place.


                And that's the correct way to set up a thread dial.


                Did we now arrive at the same page?



                --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                
                Perhaps your half nuts are very worn, and slip in regardless.
                 
                The theory of this is that the dial responds to the position of the carriage along the leadscrew, modified by the rotation of the screw.    At some positions of the dial rotor, you should NOT be able to close the nuts, because the high points on the nut and screw will clash.   If the two are worn sufficiently, that is very hard to feel, and it may seem as if there is no difference.
                 
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