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Re: [atlas_craftsman] Craftsmanship

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  • Guenther Paul
    Charles it depends if i make the boat for some one else ( sell it ) or for myself it also would depend what the customer wants after he has bean given a
    Message 1 of 21 , Jul 5, 2013
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      Charles
      it depends if i make the boat for some one else ( sell it ) or for myself it also would depend what the customer wants after he has bean given a explaination
       
      GP
      From: Charles Gallo <Charlie@...>
      To: "atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com" <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, July 5, 2013 1:56 PM
      Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Craftsmanship
       
      GP,
      OK - I'll give a different example.  You are going to make a simple part, for a simple boat.  Type of job you'd normally use 316 for (as an example).  Do you use hasteloy?  Waspaloy?  It'll be a better part that will last a LOT longer. Of course there is a SMALL price difference.
      On Jul 5, 2013, at 1:37 PM, Guenther Paul <paulguenter@...> wrote:
      JT
      What do you machine with close tolerances like your talking about. Quality is not machining with super close tolerances
      its a waist of time. One has to decide when and where to work that close and if that is your practice i would recommend grinding. Do you have instruments to measure that close also a atlas / craftsman lathe will not do it for you
      Have fun
       
      GP
      From: "jerdal@..." <jerdal@...>
      To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, July 5, 2013 12:30 PM
      Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Craftsmanship
       
      Engineers view? Really? The best possible or go straight to china per GP? Nope.... even GP does not believe what he says. Nor do you. He is the man who says there is no point to finishing a part to 0.00001" when the tolerance is 0.01". You agree, I am sure. Yet the closer tolerance is arguably "better" from one (distorted) point of view. If it is a viewpoint at all, it is a manager's view. GP would have been fired for spending extra time and money holding a much closer tolerance than needed... At least HE says that was the case.... But, in reality, the point of craftsmanship is not specifically a certain tolerance, and definitely NOT a certain "best" material. It is to do what is done as well as you can do it. That may result in some of the things your quote suggests.... Even the shaker furniture does not use the "best" materials, but rather the best type of the selected material.... A certain wood was decided on, and WITHIN THAT LIMIT the best was used... no knots, no angled grain, etc. There is a big difference between that and "only the finest"..... which might be some other wood, or even some other material. In the first place, "your" version of "finest" may be different from mine, or GPs.... Is a gold or titanium chair "better" than wood, steel, or plastic? I think you will see, if you think about it, where that goes. Craftsmanship varies with what is being produced. In some cases it may mean the very finest material and finish.... in others, something different,. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Sparber" <mailto:rgsparber%40aol.com> To: <mailto:atlas_craftsman%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, July 05, 2013 9:53 AM Subject: RE: [atlas_craftsman] Craftsmanship > JT, > > IMHO, you are voicing the engineer's viewpoint. As an engineer, I read > "finest material" as the one that best does the job at lowest cost and > meets > the needed reliability. It has to be really difficult to design things for > a > very low cost market that are only expected to last for one use. > > Rick >
       
    • jtiers
      I don t disagree, you may... That was essentially the point I made originally, and which you and GP appeared to violently disagree with. But then english is my
      Message 2 of 21 , Jul 5, 2013
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        I don't disagree, you may...

        That was essentially the point I made originally, and which you and GP
        appeared to violently disagree with.

        But then english is my second language..... (original one is all grunts and
        pointing), so perhaps I have not expressed it correctly.

        JT


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Rick Sparber" <rgsparber@...>
        To: <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, July 05, 2013 11:46 AM
        Subject: RE: [atlas_craftsman] Craftsmanship


        > jerdal ,
        >
        > You make a lot of valid points yet I don't understand your take home
        > message.
        >
        > My central point was that, as a designer, I do my best to design each part
        > to the best of my ability. Regardless of material or function, I want it
        > to
        > always fit the need over the expected variations in material and
        > fabrication
        > tolerance. Do we disagree?
        >
        > Rick
      • Charles Gallo
        If you are worrying about if he has the bean, or other factors, you are not making it the BEST, you are making the best to a price point, which was the point.
        Message 3 of 21 , Jul 5, 2013
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          If you are worrying about if he has the bean, or other factors, you are not making it the BEST, you are making the best to a price point, which was the point. If you say always the best, it should always be made of hasteloy no matter what. Too bad if no one can afford to buy your product., 

          On Jul 5, 2013, at 3:02 PM, Guenther Paul <paulguenter@...> wrote:

          Charles
          it depends if i make the boat for some one else ( sell it ) or for myself it also would depend what the customer wants after he has bean given a explaination
           
          GP
          From: Charles Gallo <Charlie@...>
          To: "atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com" <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, July 5, 2013 1:56 PM
          Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Craftsmanship
           
          GP,
          OK - I'll give a different example.  You are going to make a simple part, for a simple boat.  Type of job you'd normally use 316 for (as an example).  Do you use hasteloy?  Waspaloy?  It'll be a better part that will last a LOT longer. Of course there is a SMALL price difference.
          On Jul 5, 2013, at 1:37 PM, Guenther Paul <paulguenter@...> wrote:
          JT
          What do you machine with close tolerances like your talking about. Quality is not machining with super close tolerances
          its a waist of time. One has to decide when and where to work that close and if that is your practice i would recommend grinding. Do you have instruments to measure that close also a atlas / craftsman lathe will not do it for you
          Have fun
           
          GP
          From: "jerdal@..." <jerdal@...>
          To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, July 5, 2013 12:30 PM
          Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Craftsmanship
           
          Engineers view? Really? The best possible or go straight to china per GP? Nope.... even GP does not believe what he says. Nor do you. He is the man who says there is no point to finishing a part to 0.00001" when the tolerance is 0.01". You agree, I am sure. Yet the closer tolerance is arguably "better" from one (distorted) point of view. If it is a viewpoint at all, it is a manager's view. GP would have been fired for spending extra time and money holding a much closer tolerance than needed... At least HE says that was the case.... But, in reality, the point of craftsmanship is not specifically a certain tolerance, and definitely NOT a certain "best" material. It is to do what is done as well as you can do it. That may result in some of the things your quote suggests.... Even the shaker furniture does not use the "best" materials, but rather the best type of the selected material.... A certain wood was decided on, and WITHIN THAT LIMIT the best was used... no knots, no angled grain, etc. There is a big difference between that and "only the finest"..... which might be some other wood, or even some other material. In the first place, "your" version of "finest" may be different from mine, or GPs.... Is a gold or titanium chair "better" than wood, steel, or plastic? I think you will see, if you think about it, where that goes. Craftsmanship varies with what is being produced. In some cases it may mean the very finest material and finish.... in others, something different,. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Sparber" <mailto:rgsparber%40aol.com> To: <mailto:atlas_craftsman%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, July 05, 2013 9:53 AM Subject: RE: [atlas_craftsman] Craftsmanship > JT, > > IMHO, you are voicing the engineer's viewpoint. As an engineer, I read > "finest material" as the one that best does the job at lowest cost and > meets > the needed reliability. It has to be really difficult to design things for > a > very low cost market that are only expected to last for one use. > > Rick >
           
        • jtiers
          That s pretty funny, actually..... Thanks for the laugh. I quoted what YOU said about there being no point to such tolerances when not required..... because
          Message 4 of 21 , Jul 5, 2013
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            That's pretty funny, actually..... Thanks for the laugh.
             
            I quoted what YOU said about there being no point to such tolerances when not required.....  because you appeared to disagree with using the appropriate tolerance instead of the very smallest you can, which is about what I suggested originally....  about making the part or item to the appropriate level of tolerance/quality/whatever.   I think making a good part to the required "quality" is what a craftsman does.....
             
            So now this has been reversed and now you think I suggest doing everything to stupid tolerance?  Far from it... I think if there is 0.01" tolerance, use it.  If the tolerance is a tenth, go to the grinding department....
             
            "the very best" of everything is not craftsmanship, it is pretty much waste..... unless required for the part or machine.
             
            JT
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Friday, July 05, 2013 12:37 PM
            Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Craftsmanship

            JT
            What do you machine with close tolerances like your talking about. Quality is not machining with super close tolerances
            its a waist of time. One has to decide when and where to work that close and if that is your practice i would recommend grinding. Do you have instruments to measure that close also a atlas / craftsman lathe will not do it for you
            Have fun
             
            GP
          • Unchained malady
            Why does crafsmanship have to be related to the quality of materials ? A master craftsman given poor quality materials and second rate tooling by his employer
            Message 5 of 21 , Jul 5, 2013
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              Why does crafsmanship have to be related to the quality of materials ? A master craftsman given poor quality materials and second rate tooling by his employer may well make good products despite that, a poor tradesman given the best materials and the finest tools may only produce mediocre items. We tend to associate fine craftsmanship with fine materials because together they produce the best outcome when correctly matched but I have seen many examples of fine craftsmanship under adverse conditions and with very limited materials. Not perhaps the ideal end product but superb craftsmanship nonetheless.

              Phil.
            • Guenther Paul
              JT No i dont disagree at all you have your standards so doeas every one else. One must deside where and how to use close tollerances. In my opinion it has
              Message 6 of 21 , Jul 5, 2013
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                JT
                No i dont disagree at all you have your standards so doeas every one else. One must deside where and how to use
                close tollerances. In my opinion it has nothing to do with quality
                Oh and just a point english is also my 2nd language has bean for close to 50 years
                 
                GP
                From: "jerdal@..." <jerdal@...>
                To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Friday, July 5, 2013 3:28 PM
                Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Craftsmanship
                 
                I don't disagree, you may...

                That was essentially the point I made originally, and which you and GP
                appeared to violently disagree with.

                But then english is my second language..... (original one is all grunts and
                pointing), so perhaps I have not expressed it correctly.

                JT

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Rick Sparber" <mailto:rgsparber%40aol.com>
                To: <mailto:atlas_craftsman%40yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Friday, July 05, 2013 11:46 AM
                Subject: RE: [atlas_craftsman] Craftsmanship

                > jerdal ,
                >
                > You make a lot of valid points yet I don't understand your take home
                > message.
                >
                > My central point was that, as a designer, I do my best to design each part
                > to the best of my ability. Regardless of material or function, I want it
                > to
                > always fit the need over the expected variations in material and
                > fabrication
                > tolerance. Do we disagree?
                >
                > Rick

              • Lotus 14
                In today s world with almost any part, both tools and product, being made using CNC control; tolerance is almost a thing of the past. The accuracy and
                Message 7 of 21 , Jul 11, 2013
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                  In today's world with almost any part, both tools and product, being made using CNC control; tolerance is almost a thing of the past. The accuracy and precision of parts is very high. In many cases Inspection is used to help "tune" the process, and once the parameters are found, many parts can bypass incoming inspection. In fact that is the goal in many industries.
                  What most inspection departments are finding are gross errors where something is not made to print, not that something falls outside the tolerance. Where a lot of concern for the inspection process comes from, is the adoption of requirements such as the ISO 9000 series of certifications. More and more the ISO standards are being asked for by customers (along with a thing called a CE mark). Most of this came into being so you could sell your product to countries which had adopted these standards; not that companies didn't already meet a quality standard. Most of the ISO stuff is putting together a paperwork system. Anyone doing anything can be ISO 9001 certified; all you need to do is be willing to spend the time and money. You can buy a computer program which will set up the whole thing. You then pay a lot of money to a certifying body. You now have an ISO 9001 doughnut shop.
                  Craftsmanship, more and more is a subject of hand made low production items. If you are making something for yourself, such as would be the case of most model engineers, you can put far more personal labor into it.
                  A small mechanical jewel with an engine turned finish and polished brass shows a craftsmanship you will not find in the world of mass production. Generally speaking, though, the model engineer is not under any constraints.
                  Craftsmanship in mass production, of the above type, would only be done to meet customer's expectations.
                  I worked designing surgical instruments. At one time, believe it or not, the worlds surgical instruments were all made in one small town in Germany; a real "mom and pop" operation. Times and expectations changed; now they are all made in Pakistan. They do the job, but the certainly don't have the craftsmanship they once had.
                  Home based CNC although a fun part of the hobby bears little resemblance to a machine which is using laser interferometry, accurate to a quarter of the wavelength of red light (550 nanometers), and is compensated for temperature changes in the material and environment. Even the Chinese machine tools which are boring bearing mounts in ugly castings are probably capable of such precision and accuracy. Where craftsmanship would come into this, would be the care taken to set up the machine and the program; the machine only does what it is told.
                  The best material for the job is the one that does the best job.
                  A fancy material really doesn't have much to do with craftsmanship. Some people, particularly those outside of engineering, and the technical trades have a peculiar view of different materials. One of them that fascinates people, is a material known as stainless steel. They mistakenly believe that this is some sort of wonder material. In San Francisco right now, there is a controversy over some "bolts" which were fracturing on the new bay bridge being built. Someone wrote a letter to the editor asking why the bolts weren't made from "stainless" steel, as that would solve the problem…right.

                  "L. Garlinghouse" wrote:

                  "Make every product better than it's ever been done before. Make the parts you cannot see as well as the parts you can see. Use only the best materials, even for the most everyday items. Give the same attention to the smallest detail as you do to the largest. Design every item you make to last forever." - Shaker Philosophy of Furniture Making

                  Enjoy!

                  L.H. in Arkansas
                • L. Garlinghouse
                  As I am the guy that shared the Craftsmanship article with the group, maybe this can wrap it up and we can get back to the core purpose of the group. Still . .
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jul 12, 2013
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                    As I am the guy that shared the Craftsmanship article with the group, maybe
                    this can wrap it up and we can get back to the core purpose of the group.
                    Still . . . Craftsman products and craftsmanship . . . . not totally without
                    connection.

                    "Craftsmanship" as the theme of the article [which I hope at least some of
                    us read] is in line with something I heard referred to as "House Wife Yoga,"
                    or much the same as don Juan's/Carlos Castañeda's "Warrior." Badly
                    paraphrasing, the housewife, when she is done with breakfast cleans the
                    kitchen and the stove and the salt and pepper are where the salt and pepper
                    go; not somewhere else. The warrior when he goes off to battle leaves his
                    other boots shined, his bed made and the room swept. Not because either
                    ever expect to fix another breakfast or return to the house, but becasuse
                    that is the impeccable way they live every moment of their lives.

                    I was a student, then a teacher and later still an administrator in the
                    Arkansas Vo-Tech system and I got sooo sick of "Well, that's good enough
                    considerin' who its for." Implyling that one's reward defined the level of
                    craftsmanship; never doing as good a job as time and circumstance would
                    allow as one might be capable of.

                    Once as a student I was asked to move some recently cut pipe from one place
                    to another in the shop. I immediately recognized that they had not been cut
                    by any of the regular students. I asked "Who cut these?" and was told it
                    was some maintenance guys taking a class at night. How did I know? because
                    the cut ends were all deburred. No edges or burrs to cut the next person
                    that handled them. De burring the cut ends was an expression of
                    craftsmanship as opposed to its lack as typically found in a shop full of
                    veterans with bad attitudes or others stumbling out of their sometimes
                    difficult lives into a hoped for better future.

                    So, in a society where the mantra seems to be "How little can I get by with;
                    what I do depends on what I'll get," an understanding of "craftsmanship" is
                    liberating and helps keeps ourselves whole. That's why we go out to our
                    shops, unobserved, and make [or try to make] things just beyond our ability
                    or that few outside a discussion group or two will care or understand. A
                    sort of guerilla op agains a society/culture that has set the standards so
                    low that sometimes I am not interested at all.

                    Don Juan's concept of "controlled folly": Yes the warrior realizes s/he has
                    no control over much of anything, certainly the future, but s/he lives
                    his/her life as if such control existed. Ditto most of the folks, regardless
                    of their skills/abilities/resources, on our list. There is no guarantee
                    that my given project will come out as hoped or better; but I'll do my part
                    for intrinsic reasons, not because many folks will understand what I was
                    trying to do, much less whether I was successful.
                    -----------
                    I pretty much wasted the last 15 years of my industrial life preaching ISO
                    9000. Yes, there were abuses, lack of understanding, lack of caring and
                    even corruption in its implementation. BUT those few companies who took it
                    personally/internalized its intent -- expecting internal improvement rather
                    than just a certificate -- truly benefitted from it.

                    Anyway, 'nuff said. Sorry for the distraction,

                    L.H. in Arkansas USA

                    ------------
                    * Search: Deming forces of destruction. Actual quote: "Extrinsic [from the
                    outside -- lhg] motivation slowly destroys self esteem, dignity,
                    cooperation and a yearning for learning - all of which are innate and high
                    early in life. They are diminished throughout our life by what Dr. Deming
                    calls the forces of destruction - of which extrinsic motivation is one of
                    these destructive forces."
                  • wa5cab
                    Well said! Robert Downs - Houston wa5cab dot com (Web Store) MVPA 9480 In a message dated 07/12/2013 11:12:10 AM Central Daylight Time, ... Well said! Robert
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jul 12, 2013
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                      Well said!

                      Robert Downs - Houston
                      wa5cab dot com (Web Store)
                      MVPA 9480

                      In a message dated 07/12/2013 11:12:10 AM Central Daylight Time, lhghouse@... writes:
                      As I am the guy that shared the Craftsmanship article with the group, maybe
                      this can wrap it up and we can get back to the core purpose of the group.
                      Still . . . Craftsman products and craftsmanship . . . . not totally without
                      connection.

                      "Craftsmanship" as the theme of the article [which I hope at least some of
                      us read] is in line with something I heard referred to as "House Wife Yoga,"
                      or much the same as don Juan's/Carlos Castañeda's "Warrior."  Badly
                      paraphrasing, the housewife, when she is done with breakfast cleans the
                      kitchen and the stove and the salt and pepper are where the salt and pepper
                      go; not somewhere else.  The warrior when he goes off to battle leaves his
                      other boots shined, his bed made and the room swept.  Not because either
                      ever expect to fix another breakfast or return to the house, but becasuse
                      that is the impeccable way they live every moment of their lives.

                      I was a student, .........................................


                    • KC
                      Nicely put, I for one needed that ! Thanks Kris
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jul 13, 2013
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                        Nicely put, I for one needed that !
                         
                        Thanks
                         
                        Kris
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