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Re: [atlas_craftsman] Re: very OT: Help needed re sale of used Craftsman 12 x 36 Legal Issues

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  • jtiers
    Always put the as-is etc in the ad, and save the ad ( save web page complete ) before you take it down after the sale. I sold a Southbend recently, St Louis
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 3, 2013
      Always put the as-is etc in the ad, and save the ad ("save web page
      complete") before you take it down after the sale.

      I sold a Southbend recently, St Louis craig's list. Right in the ad I
      stated "this machine is used, no warranty, I am selling it as-is, where is,
      with all faults, you need to be prepared to inspect it, and when you buy it
      it is yours, no refunds or returns". First guy who looked at it bought it,
      didn't even try to deal, he paid right up, full pop ad price. And went away
      happy. I had thought that I might have to come down some from my stated
      price, so I had it a considerable amount above what I thought I needed for
      it. No need to worry there. And I had others interested as well.

      My own lathe, a Logan, has vibration at high speeds. Always has ever since
      I bought it used, was worse originally. It never occurred to me to complain
      to the seller, I fixed it to my satisfaction, and there it is.

      In this case, apparently your purchaser never contacted you to attempt to
      find resolution before tearing into it, and has substantially modified the
      machine since, or at least replaced things several times. He has apparently
      spent money on things (SS countershaft????) , more money than necessary,
      without result, and without contacting you. In so doing, without allowing
      you to do anything to mitigate whatever problem he claimed prior to his
      throwing money at the problem, it would appear to me that he has possibly
      messed it up himself.

      Unless you represented it to be "perfect", and the buyer was someone who
      would *not* be competent to discover your "false declarations" , by now he
      owns it, as-is etc.

      If you admitted fault and/or misrepresentation, that's one thing, but if you
      just offered him money basically to go away, without admitting fault, I
      doubt he will look very good in small claims court. He probably knows it.

      Maybe he has buyer's remorse, spent too much money that he needed to pay
      bills with, didn't clear it with wife, etc, etc...... and now wants you to
      bail him out.

      It's even possible that it worked OK, and that he then fouled it up when he
      tried to do something with it, or to it. Then, he may have decided to get
      out from under by seeing what he could squeeze out of you to cover his own
      self-caused problems. I find the "out of round" and "case broken" to be
      things which are very possibly his own fault, either in moving, or in use.
      And having an SS countershaft made for him is just crazy. he could have
      done that himself at lower speed, vibration or not, and SS is just useless
      bling there.

      Since vibration is extremely easy to detect by simply running the machine at
      all speeds before purchase, ESPECIALLY if it is so bad as to "be dangerous",
      even a novice could be expected to find it. and, in fact, he DID find it.
      Problem for him is he apparently found it after he bought the machine. Quite
      possibly after he CAUSED it. And, finding it makes him automatically a
      person who should have found it before purchase if that was important to
      him. He can't claim he was "too stupid to find it", he has already proved
      that isn't the case by finding it. And that assumes it is actually *that
      bad* and was *that bad* when sold to him.

      Myself, I would not refund anything other than the full purchase price, and
      that only if the machine were returned to me intact, with all accessories,
      delivered to the same place it was removed from.

      This sort of person is the kind who will bring it back and basically throw
      it at you, breaking more things without caring, because he is "only
      returning a broken machine", and have the gall to demand full refund for the
      thing he pushed out of the back of his pickup onto the concrete. Or demand
      that you pick it up, and then he won't have some of teh parts, it will be
      damaged, accessories "somewhere", but you will be expected to pay up in full
      anyway. Nope..... no money unless and until it is returned complete,
      intact, and with everything it was sold with.

      If you do any sort of partial refund, get a signed statement that this is
      full settlement of any and all claims, past, present, and future, and that
      no further claims will be made at any time for any reason. Compare the
      signature with his DL....... and have him print his name and address below
      it. That kind will scrawl something that he can later disavow as "a forgery,
      nothing like his genuine signature". Don't permit that.

      JT

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "bg7701xj" <billg1277@...>
      To: <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 9:31 PM
      Subject: [atlas_craftsman] Re: very OT: Help needed re sale of used
      Craftsman 12 x 36 Legal Issues


      > From:atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of crashbone256
      > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 3:36 PM
      > To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [atlas_craftsman] very OT: Help needed re sale of used Craftsman
      > 12 x 36 Legal Issues
      > Â
      > Â
      > Hello Group,I have a vexing legal issue pending regarding thepast sale of
      > my personal shop Craftsman 12 x 36.History:The machine was very rough when
      > I got it.The machine was _completely_ dismantled, wire brushed,
      > electrolytically cleaned, repaired, painted, lubed and rebuilt.The only
      > obvious flaw was a 1Ã" triangle missing at the tail end of the bed way.
      > There are new lead screw half nuts, new cross slide and compound
      > nuts.There are new inner and outer bearing dust covers.There is new half
      > nut scroll, ball and spring.The crown miter gear key has been replaced
      > with a brass key.The traverse case has been reinforced at the feet.The
      > tailstock clamp have been machined for a better clamping action and
      > release.V-belts are replaced with link belts for smoother power, less
      > vibration.The original motor was replaced with a 1/2 HP 220VAC 3ph TEFC
      > running from a fan cooled heat sink mounted 120 VAC 1ph Minarik VFD. The
      > original countershaft, spindle pulley and back
      > gear were maintained.I used the lathe for a few years after rebuild in my
      > shop. Then I decided I wanted to get a SBL. The lathe sold 8 months ago
      > for $1100.The new owner has recently contacted me re suing me for
      > mis-representation of goods.He has spent much time and money trying to get
      > vibration out of the drive system, particularly the motor and
      > countershaft. He also states the traverse case was broken and the HS
      > spindle / bull gear were out of round. He had to buy two of each to find a
      > pair that were decent and he had a new motor shaft machined from SS. He
      > also had much work done to the motor mount plate and countershaft
      > support.I have offered to reimburse him for a new traverse case and motor.
      > $175He wants about $500 - $700 refunded since he claims the vibration from
      > the countershaft and motor made the machine unsafe to use at high rpm.What
      > would you do?
      > Â
      >




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    • JOHN ASHBURN
      Hi all refer to my recent post.If the buyer refused your 175 dollar offer then withdraw it .Send a registered letter with a return paid one.He doesn t really
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
        Hi all refer to my recent post.If the buyer refused your 175 dollar offer then withdraw it .Send a registered letter with a return paid one.He doesn't really stand to win a free lathe,especially if he played with it.Voids all his claims.
        Don't get into a shite fight.A learning curve for you.Move on.
        A true event happened to us many years ago where a car sold by us was brought back 2 weeks after a sale,claiming all sorts of faults and demanding their refund in full.My late father gave them their money back.They took off with the cash and the car.The car was mechanically sound we were both qualified mechanics and we never sold crap.Police said stiff as was in their name.
        I was told later that the guy who bought the car was bragging in a pub how he ripped off 2 dumb ass people.
        A month later he died from a heart attack.Must have been the stress of ripping some one off. So with that sit back and let Karma happen it does get them in the end.


        From: "jerdal@..." <jerdal@...>
        To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, 4 July 2013 3:20 PM
        Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Re: very OT: Help needed re sale of used Craftsman 12 x 36 Legal Issues

         
        Always put the as-is etc in the ad, and save the ad ("save web page
        complete") before you take it down after the sale.

        I sold a Southbend recently, St Louis craig's list. Right in the ad I
        stated "this machine is used, no warranty, I am selling it as-is, where is,
        with all faults, you need to be prepared to inspect it, and when you buy it
        it is yours, no refunds or returns". First guy who looked at it bought it,
        didn't even try to deal, he paid right up, full pop ad price. And went away
        happy. I had thought that I might have to come down some from my stated
        price, so I had it a considerable amount above what I thought I needed for
        it. No need to worry there. And I had others interested as well.

        My own lathe, a Logan, has vibration at high speeds. Always has ever since
        I bought it used, was worse originally. It never occurred to me to complain
        to the seller, I fixed it to my satisfaction, and there it is.

        In this case, apparently your purchaser never contacted you to attempt to
        find resolution before tearing into it, and has substantially modified the
        machine since, or at least replaced things several times. He has apparently
        spent money on things (SS countershaft????) , more money than necessary,
        without result, and without contacting you. In so doing, without allowing
        you to do anything to mitigate whatever problem he claimed prior to his
        throwing money at the problem, it would appear to me that he has possibly
        messed it up himself.

        Unless you represented it to be "perfect", and the buyer was someone who
        would *not* be competent to discover your "false declarations" , by now he
        owns it, as-is etc.

        If you admitted fault and/or misrepresentation, that's one thing, but if you
        just offered him money basically to go away, without admitting fault, I
        doubt he will look very good in small claims court. He probably knows it.

        Maybe he has buyer's remorse, spent too much money that he needed to pay
        bills with, didn't clear it with wife, etc, etc...... and now wants you to
        bail him out.

        It's even possible that it worked OK, and that he then fouled it up when he
        tried to do something with it, or to it. Then, he may have decided to get
        out from under by seeing what he could squeeze out of you to cover his own
        self-caused problems. I find the "out of round" and "case broken" to be
        things which are very possibly his own fault, either in moving, or in use.
        And having an SS countershaft made for him is just crazy. he could have
        done that himself at lower speed, vibration or not, and SS is just useless
        bling there.

        Since vibration is extremely easy to detect by simply running the machine at
        all speeds before purchase, ESPECIALLY if it is so bad as to "be dangerous",
        even a novice could be expected to find it. and, in fact, he DID find it.
        Problem for him is he apparently found it after he bought the machine. Quite
        possibly after he CAUSED it. And, finding it makes him automatically a
        person who should have found it before purchase if that was important to
        him. He can't claim he was "too stupid to find it", he has already proved
        that isn't the case by finding it. And that assumes it is actually *that
        bad* and was *that bad* when sold to him.

        Myself, I would not refund anything other than the full purchase price, and
        that only if the machine were returned to me intact, with all accessories,
        delivered to the same place it was removed from.

        This sort of person is the kind who will bring it back and basically throw
        it at you, breaking more things without caring, because he is "only
        returning a broken machine", and have the gall to demand full refund for the
        thing he pushed out of the back of his pickup onto the concrete. Or demand
        that you pick it up, and then he won't have some of teh parts, it will be
        damaged, accessories "somewhere", but you will be expected to pay up in full
        anyway. Nope..... no money unless and until it is returned complete,
        intact, and with everything it was sold with.

        If you do any sort of partial refund, get a signed statement that this is
        full settlement of any and all claims, past, present, and future, and that
        no further claims will be made at any time for any reason. Compare the
        signature with his DL....... and have him print his name and address below
        it. That kind will scrawl something that he can later disavow as "a forgery,
        nothing like his genuine signature". Don't permit that.

        JT

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "bg7701xj" <billg1277@...>
        To: <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 9:31 PM
        Subject: [atlas_craftsman] Re: very OT: Help needed re sale of used
        Craftsman 12 x 36 Legal Issues

        > From:atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of crashbone256
        > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 3:36 PM
        > To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [atlas_craftsman] very OT: Help needed re sale of used Craftsman
        > 12 x 36 Legal Issues
        > Â
        > Â
        > Hello Group,I have a vexing legal issue pending regarding thepast sale of
        > my personal shop Craftsman 12 x 36.History:The machine was very rough when
        > I got it.The machine was _completely_ dismantled, wire brushed,
        > electrolytically cleaned, repaired, painted, lubed and rebuilt.The only
        > obvious flaw was a 1Ã" triangle missing at the tail end of the bed way.
        > There are new lead screw half nuts, new cross slide and compound
        > nuts.There are new inner and outer bearing dust covers.There is new half
        > nut scroll, ball and spring.The crown miter gear key has been replaced
        > with a brass key.The traverse case has been reinforced at the feet.The
        > tailstock clamp have been machined for a better clamping action and
        > release.V-belts are replaced with link belts for smoother power, less
        > vibration.The original motor was replaced with a 1/2 HP 220VAC 3ph TEFC
        > running from a fan cooled heat sink mounted 120 VAC 1ph Minarik VFD. The
        > original countershaft, spindle pulley and back
        > gear were maintained.I used the lathe for a few years after rebuild in my
        > shop. Then I decided I wanted to get a SBL. The lathe sold 8 months ago
        > for $1100.The new owner has recently contacted me re suing me for
        > mis-representation of goods.He has spent much time and money trying to get
        > vibration out of the drive system, particularly the motor and
        > countershaft. He also states the traverse case was broken and the HS
        > spindle / bull gear were out of round. He had to buy two of each to find a
        > pair that were decent and he had a new motor shaft machined from SS. He
        > also had much work done to the motor mount plate and countershaft
        > support.I have offered to reimburse him for a new traverse case and motor.
        > $175He wants about $500 - $700 refunded since he claims the vibration from
        > the countershaft and motor made the machine unsafe to use at high rpm.What
        > would you do?
        > Â
        >

        ------------------------------------

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        To see or edit your personal settings, view the photos, files or links
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        Please submit things you think will be useful to Jon Elson at
        mailto://elson@...! Groups Links



      • Jim Ash
        Right or wrong, a suit can be a nuisance and if you can minimize the hassle without admitting any wrong doing, I d consider it. Maybe 5 years ago, I bought an
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
          Right or wrong, a suit can be a nuisance and if you can minimize the hassle without admitting any wrong doing, I'd consider it.

          Maybe 5 years ago, I bought an old car from a guy several hours' ride from here. It was sold as drivable. I bought it in November, and put it in my barn until the following summer. When I went to get it inspected, I found out the structure of the car was rotted away and there's no way it would pass inspection. I'm not a fan of law suits, so I contacted the seller directly to settle it with some integrity, but he blew me off with "You're a big boy" (I still remember the verbiage, which I quoted for the judge). I got pissed and took detailed notes of all our conversations. After some research, I found out NH law requires a dealer (he had a dealer's license) to have have both his and the buyer's signatures on a special, state-supplied form stating that all parties are in agreement the vehicle wasn't road-worthy at time of sale. I never saw such a form, and neither did he. When a car fails inspection, a lot of inspection stations around here just tell you what's wrong and tear up the paperwork. If they file a failure with the state, it requires more paperwork at the next inspection specifically addressing the points of failure from the first inspection. I had my guy file an inspection failure. I filed a small claim in my local court, 20 minutes' ride for me, 3 hours' ride for him. I've never done one before. The judge heard the case, but didn't offer a ruling, forcing the seller to drive up and drive back. A week later, we got a notice in the mail ruling in my favor and negating the sale. Because of the failed inspection on file, the seller couldn't get a temporary registration to drive it home. He drove up with a flat bed rig for it, costing more time and expense.

          You may not have done anything wrong, but if this guy can use the legal system to jerk you around and waste your time (as I did to the guy above), then maybe you need to draw a line where you compromise your cash for your hassle. Beyond that, see you in court. I can't imagine a judge ruling against you over an old used machine that he bought quite some time prior, and has since modified, so it might be a bluff, or the judge might be his brother-in-law. Too bad our legal system doesn't allow winning defendants of nuisance suits like this appears to be to recoup time and expenses from the plaintiff.

          Jim Ash
        • Guenther Paul
          Jim No comparison. The seller of the lathe was not a dealer, Automotive fall in a totally diverant category. Yes it is best to leave courts out of it. In this
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
            Jim
            No comparison. The seller of the lathe was not a dealer, Automotive fall in a totally diverant category.
            Yes it is best to leave courts out of it. In this case i would just go the route i explained in previous threads.
            I bean to court many times, small claims, district and circuit  when i was in buisnes its no fun but in some cases its the way to go
            Court is a waist of time and money. I represented my self in all cases the judges all ways said i did a good job but they really want one to be represented by a lawyer. I would ignore the buyer unless there is no other way
             
            GP
            From: Jim Ash <ashcan@...>
            To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 12:11 PM
            Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Re: very OT: Help needed re sale of used Craftsman 12 x 36 Legal Issues
             
             
            Right or wrong, a suit can be a nuisance and if you can minimize the hassle without admitting any wrong doing, I'd consider it.

            Maybe 5 years ago, I bought an old car from a guy several hours' ride from here. It was sold as drivable. I bought it in November, and put it in my barn until the following summer. When I went to get it inspected, I found out the structure of the car was rotted away and there's no way it would pass inspection. I'm not a fan of law suits, so I contacted the seller directly to settle it with some integrity, but he blew me off with "You're a big boy" (I still remember the verbiage, which I quoted for the judge). I got pissed and took detailed notes of all our conversations. After some research, I found out NH law requires a dealer (he had a dealer's license) to have have both his and the buyer's signatures on a special, state-supplied form stating that all parties are in agreement the vehicle wasn't road-worthy at time of sale. I never saw such a form, and neither did he. When a car fails inspection, a lot of inspection stations around here just tell you what's wrong and tear up the paperwork. If they file a failure with the state, it requires more paperwork at the next inspection specifically addressing the points of failure from the first inspection. I had my guy file an inspection failure. I filed a small claim in my local court, 20 minutes' ride for me, 3 hours' ride for him. I've never done one before. The judge heard the case, but didn't offer a ruling, forcing the seller to drive up and drive back. A week later, we got a notice in the mail ruling in my favor and negating the sale. Because of the failed inspection on file, the seller couldn't get a temporary registration to drive it home. He drove up with a flat bed rig for it, costing more time and expense.

            You may not have done anything wrong, but if this guy can use the legal system to jerk you around and waste your time (as I did to the guy above), then maybe you need to draw a line where you compromise your cash for your hassle. Beyond that, see you in court. I can't imagine a judge ruling against you over an old used machine that he bought quite some time prior, and has since modified, so it might be a bluff, or the judge might be his brother-in-law. Too bad our legal system doesn't allow winning defendants of nuisance suits like this appears to be to recoup time and expenses from the plaintiff.

            Jim Ash

             
          • James Irwin
            I think that if one just ignores the case and it goes to court, one can expect a judgment against them. This shows up forever, and requires a truthful answer
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
              Re: [atlas_craftsman] Re: very OT: Help needed re sale of used Craftsman 12 x 36 Legal Issues I think that if one just ignores the case and it goes to court, one can expect a judgment against them. This shows up forever, and requires a truthful answer when credit applications require one about whether you’ve ever had a judgment against you. You don’t want to get caught lying on one of these! A lawyer might get an award of damages (actual costs of your defense) against the plaintiff, if it goes your way.

              I used to have a motor home. Rented it to a guy who put in writing he was going a short distance and would be responsible for clean-up & any damage repairs. He went many times as far as he said to places he was not supposed to go, and brought it back filthy. We charged him for all the mileage and clean-up costs. He filed in small claims with all sorts of completely bogus claims. Wanted all charges refunded, even the rent! We went to court with pictures and bills. Judge saw what was going on, but still ordered him to pay the rental, and us to refund the cleaning charges. So no one was happy. Was justice served? What a waste of time! Still, if we hadn’t shown up, we’d have lost over a thousand on fair rental fees.

              Some folks are slime-balls. Get over it and use the system to get some sort of justice.

              Jim Irwin


              On 7/4/13 11:45 AM, "Guenther Paul" wrote:

              Court is a waist of time and money. I represented my self in all cases the judges all ways said i did a good job but they really want one to be represented by a lawyer. I would ignore the buyer unless there is no other way
            • Guenther Paul
              Jim You hit on the head with your last sentence GP ________________________________ From: James Irwin To: Atlas
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
                Jim
                You hit on the head with your last sentence
                 
                GP
                From: James Irwin <jirwin1@...>
                To: Atlas <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 1:08 PM
                Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Re: very OT: Help needed re sale of used Craftsman 12 x 36 Legal Issues
                 
                I think that if one just ignores the case and it goes to court, one can expect a judgment against them. This shows up forever, and requires a truthful answer when credit applications require one about whether you’ve ever had a judgment against you. You don’t want to get caught lying on one of these! A lawyer might get an award of damages (actual costs of your defense) against the plaintiff, if it goes your way.

                I used to have a motor home. Rented it to a guy who put in writing he was going a short distance and would be responsible for clean-up & any damage repairs. He went many times as far as he said to places he was not supposed to go, and brought it back filthy. We charged him for all the mileage and clean-up costs. He filed in small claims with all sorts of completely bogus claims. Wanted all charges refunded, even the rent! We went to court with pictures and bills. Judge saw what was going on, but still ordered him to pay the rental, and us to refund the cleaning charges. So no one was happy. Was justice served? What a waste of time! Still, if we hadn’t shown up, we’d have lost over a thousand on fair rental fees.

                Some folks are slime-balls. Get over it and use the system to get some sort of justice.

                Jim Irwin


                On 7/4/13 11:45 AM, "Guenther Paul" wrote:

                Court is a waist of time and money. I represented my self in all cases the judges all ways said i did a good job but they really want one to be represented by a lawyer. I would ignore the buyer unless there is no other way
                 
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